Why is there such a difference in the flags brought to games in the last dozen years?
Posted by Celtic_RTDB@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 293 comments
Had there been a change in use of symbols and flags in Bosnia?
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Bosnian Muslim nationalism at its finest.
PasicT@reddit
The flag of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has nothing to do with nationalism, let alone "Bosnian Muslim nationalism".
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Yes, it does have. If two other ethnic group and modest Muslims reject it as theirs, that makes it the Muslim nationalist flag.
teodorfon@reddit
Jahahaha cope more đ We accepted the neutral flag so it can be used by bosnian croats and serbs, but they didn't so why should we? Back the RBiH. đđťâď¸
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
I dont need to cope. We have our, the Serbian tricolor. The Bosniak war flag isn't a neutral flag at all and cannot be use by Serbs, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and modest Bosniaks. That flag is a rubbish, even Alija threw it away. Back to what, RBIH doesn't exist, thanks to Alija.
teodorfon@reddit
Haha pricam o neutralnoj zastavi koja je zamjena za ljiljanku, ona je bila tu da sd ne zale bosanski pravoslavci i katolici. Niste je prihvatili, ide opet ljiljanka. đđťâď¸
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Hahah ne ide, nije zvaniÄna, Alijaju ju je ukinuo i hvala mu i ĹĄto je priznao Republiku Srpsku, a ukinuo tzv RBIH. I hvala mu ĹĄto nikada nije dao da se Srbija napadne, jer je on poreklom iz Srbije.
teodorfon@reddit
Bitno je da je koristi vecinski narod, a priznanje i kraj rata je doso pod pritiskom zapada da nebi bilo +200k izbjeglica iz BL regije.
A sta fali sto su mu pretci iz Srbije? Pa 1/3 Srbije vuce korijene iz Bosne (Vucic je iz Cipuljica kraj Bugojna đ).
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Hahahaha u kakve vi nebuloze verujete, mozak su vam potpuno isprali. Ne fali niĹĄta, radio je viĹĄe za nas nego za vas đ MoĹžete vi da koristite i tursku, Bosna nije naĹĄa drĹžava, imamo Republiku Srpsku. Muslimanska zastava nije niti ce ikada biti zvanicna zastava. Kraj. Vecinski narod sa 23% hahahaha
teodorfon@reddit
Koji pasos imas, koja drzava RS? đNaravno da smo vecinski narod, pogledaj popis 2013., a cinimo 60+% novorodjenih/prvacica. A ta famozna srpska propaganda o 23% prolazi samo kod vas, ko drzi najvece gradove u BiH? Srbi? đ Pa najveci privredne grane drze bosnjaci + FBiH odrzava budzet RS na zivotu:
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Znas dobro gde je Republika Srpska, vijore se zvanicne srpske trobojke. Dobijamo novac i nastavicemo da ga dobijamo, jos neko vreme. Kada se u potpunosti odvojimo, placacemo ih mi sami. Samo ti veruj Bakiru, Alija vam je prodao zemlju, "R", zastavu, himnu, grb, sve je prodao, nastavllja Trojka. Sami ste krivi. Ne verujem ja u 23%, verujem da je to i manje od 23%.
teodorfon@reddit
Gdje je RS? Unutar BiH. Kakvo odvojit pa nemate ni za tekucu fiskalnu godinu: https://capital.ba/srpska-se-na-londonskoj-berzi-zaduzila-500-miliona-evra/
Da niste dio BiH nebi vam ni jedna bolnica radila ni jedna policija stanica đđđ
A opet da vidimo za te 23%:
gle ti to, pa vi izumirete ko bubasvabe haha, prosjijek godine 55+, za 10 godina vas nema na vise od polovice drzave, hmmm gdje nabra ih tih 23% za nas jadne bosnjake đđđ
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Imaginarne brojeve mi dajes. Ja cu ti dati stvarni primer: moji ujaci redovno prelaze u FBIH da seku sumu. Imaju svoje sumare, plate im nesto sitno, razvale sumu i odnesu u RS. To se posle prodaje u Srbiji. Kazu da nece stati dok sve ne poseku. Necete vi izdrzati sa nama i Hrvatima jos 10 godina, razvalili smo vam drzavu, zamisli gde bi bila Bosna danas da nije nas? đ
teodorfon@reddit
Hahahaha mozes sve sam da provjeris http://www.statistika.ba/ al' hej vi bosanski pravoslavci nemojte vjerovat brojevima. Zato vas je bilo 91. bilo 1.3m a danas jedva 800k, ali nemoj ti vjerovati statistici i imaginarnim brojevima. đđđ
A hrvata je bilo 91. 760k a danas jedva i 300k, tako da bi reko da se mi bosnje veoma dobro snalazimo u ovoj dejtonskoj BiH, ti govoris za 10g, pa tad nece biti ni 600k srba u BiH. đđđ
I slobodno navedi koja je suma ako si hrabar, mislim da ce to interesovat federalnu upravu za sumarstvo, hajde budi dzeck. đ A i ne cudi me da se time bavite, niste vi za neke skole haha.
btw. evo ti 23% koje si trazio đ
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Pa ovi sto nam daju da posecemo sumu i odnesemo su pravoslavci. Otac i sin. U vecinski muslimanskom mestu dobili drzavnu sluzbu a bosnjo na baustel u nemacku ahahah Cujem da je u Stolcu slicna situacija ahahahah Necete vi izdrzati jos 10 godina, urusicemo vam drzavu. Gde bi Bosna bila da je ne razvalismo 92... ahahahah
teodorfon@reddit
Brojevi ne lazu, a ti se smiji, za 20g ce bit jedva 500k srba u BiH, A 92. vas je bilo 1.36m đđđ
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
Nece biti BIH za 20g. đđđ
PasicT@reddit
There is no "Muslim nationalist flag", those are just lies fed to you from birth like many others lies that you believe in.
Scary_Persimmon_1682@reddit
You are brainwashed. Definitely, after this, there is not any kind of unity. You keep saying the same thing - RBIH was defeated in the war. It doesn't exist today. De jure and de facto only the Republic of Srpska exists, also de facto Herzeg-Bosnia exists.
laneaster@reddit
There was a wave when Varta was implemented when Bosniaks primarily used it with hopes of Serbs and Croats using it too.
But reality was that Serbs and Croats disregarded that flag too and continued using their own so we have reached the point where only Bosniaks used it but it was meaningless and forced.
I've recently watched an interesting video, in it foreigner tried to buy Bosnian flag and there wasn't any. There was even a flag of Yugoslavia but not BiH, country they are part of.
But to me that's a sign of some kind of progress. People here now mostly have some kind of agreement so you don't really expect Bosnian flags in Banja Luka but now it seems that also they expect Lillies in Sarajevo. Things are like that and life moves on.
nerull77@reddit
So instead of Bosniaks being persistent and true to the core, they showed they are no better than the rest and did it only for the spite of it. Disgusting.
OkDoctor8624@reddit
Bosniaks are true to the core, core is the lillies, but we still love the flag of our country. None is doing it for the spite, a sta ti pisem uopste vidi se da si beskicmenjak
nerull77@reddit
Not doing it out of spite? So everyone started waving white flag instead of official one by pure coincidence đđ.
Truth is, you want a country without other people, what Croatia managed to achieve. The saddest part is, itâs not even about people. Itâs about power and money. Itâs how the world goes around.
OkDoctor8624@reddit
Nah I want a country with Croats and Serbs that like this country, but most of them hate it that is the difference, I never wanted a solo Bosniak nation because that is not Bosnia and Herzegovina
PasicT@reddit
Croats literally voted for that flag in the 1992 referendum, it's too late to complain about it now.
laneaster@reddit
Bosniaks are now true to the core. What's disgusting are chants for Ratko MladiÄ by high school students yesterday in Belgrade.
And that goes on for 30 years. Whole my life we are trying to be good guys and build something with those who tried to wipe us as a people and in response they spit in our face.
30 years is a long time.
nerull77@reddit
Belgrade is not in Bosnia, itâs their problem. If you are fighting for a good cause, you never get tired of it. Everything else is just making way for single ethnic state, while it should be single nation state which is the saddest part.
laneaster@reddit
You either live in Western Europe or you are Serb. Or maybe you live in some fairytale society with flowers and rainbows.
If you are from here you'll know that Belgrade is not some separate thing, RS will follow directives from Serbia and they don't even hide that.
Let's just assume that three guys here are building a house and while one of them is trying to build something two of them are stealing materials and giving them to the neighbors.
By your logic moral of the story is that the guy building it should be more persistent, he is fighting for a good cause at the end of a day.
nerull77@reddit
You are mixing regular folk with politicians and scum. If you and I built the house, we would most likely not steal and give it away.
Politics is revolved around influence and money. They donât care about anything else. Problem is people are sheep dumb and fall for same fairy tale stories and bullshit each time.
Croatia is a perfect example. They are ethnically almost clean, yet political parties fight to the death between themselves. Itâs who gets which contract and money in the end.
laneaster@reddit
That's different all together, regular people here are doing well between themselves, doesn't matter what flag.
nerull77@reddit
Thatâs the point. We should do our own thing. Politicians being as they are, change must come from below not above. There are already some positive trends, where people buy appartments in different entity or entity shops having products and promotions for Eid.
You could argue itâs a market thing, but I donât care. If it will bring people closer, I am all down for it.
NOTExETON@reddit
Varta. Lmfao
averege_guy_kinda@reddit
because nationalism in Bosnia for all sides is on the rise
interwal@reddit
Nope
Bosnia had old flag, Serbs and Croats didnât want to use it or to agree to a new one. New flag is imposed, pro-Bosnians use it, Serbs and Croats donât want to use it and continue using their own flags, pro-Bosnians return to their old flag
zimskivojnik@reddit
Nope
teodorfon@reddit
Yup yup, you had 20+ years to start using the new neutral flag, we had enough. đđťâď¸
ddaattuullaa@reddit
Yup
ReachEuphoric3595@reddit
Bosnia: the multicultural paradise where everyone is welcome, every identity is respected, and every citizen is equal. There's just one tiny administrative detail: don't call yourself Croatian, Serbian, or anything your grandparents might have recognized. Those identities are terribly divisive. You're all Bosniaks now, congratulations. As for the Croats, don't worry about representation. We'll save you the trouble of choosing your own representatives; democracy can be exhausting. And when it comes to history, we'll keep things simple. The symbols of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina are the symbols of everyone now. One army, one narrative, one memory. Diversity is our strength, provided it arrives in exactly the same package.
vanity-flair83@reddit
For good and bad this very much reminds me of my country.
I have my own opinions, but I dont want to insert unsolicited takes on an r/askbalkans sub considering im not from there, ethnically or geographically ( tho no doubt id love to lol)
PasicT@reddit
Well what would you like to talk about?
vanity-flair83@reddit
Well, since u asked, like i stated, as an american i think multiculturalism is mostly good, but can be bad also.
The good: ( and im not making any distinctions between 1st gen immigrants and latter generations) provides a wider range of perspectives and a broader worldview. I think of it as avoiding group think (which could be interpreted as bad if u prioritize homogeneity). Also economically, tho this is debatable if we start talking immigrants, i.e. you can pay them less in working class/agricultural sectors, leading to less job opportunities for official Americans; this is obviously on the con side. But on the pro side we we attract " the best and the brightest" from around the world (admittedly, at the cost of Brain Drain from their respective countties), enhancing our creative and innovative capacities. But mostly the good is cultural. Every assimilated ethnicity, be it Irish, west African, Italian, mexican/central american, Jewishâthey all contribute to what it is to be american; i dont want to live in a country w an overwhelmingly WASP ( white Anglo saxon protestant) population. Yes, multiculturalism can be messy, especially for newly arrived people's. And im not just talking about brown people from "un-friendly" countries; Eastern and southern European people, even the Irish had a hard time adjusting/being welcomed and considered American when they arrived, lasting multiple generations sometimes, particularly from the more reactionary elements in society.
The bad- mainly, its often utilized by politicians to stoke racial/ethnic/cultural/religious divisions, if not outright scapegoating, especially during times of economic downturn ( real or percieved), where none really exist.
Thats all I'll say, tho I feel like thats just scratching the surface. Honestly, I shouldn't have wrote "tho im dying to do so" bc im actually not. I was just trying to be coy.
luletino@reddit
The US is a country of immigrants and colonists, Bosnia is not. There are meaningfull differences between minority groups that are the result of immigration post national formation and groups that were allready present prior to it. Ask yourself how well integrated are Native Americans compared to other minority groups in the US.
vanity-flair83@reddit
Yeah, the indigenous were largely exterminated unfortunately.
Let me ask u, at what point do immigrants become colonists then? Second gen? Third ? 4th?
No one asks to be born where theyre born
PasicT@reddit
You succeeded in assimilation and multiculturalism where other nations have largely failed.
vanity-flair83@reddit
Im happy to here u say that we've succeeded in those repects tho! Seriously
PasicT@reddit
I think so, I look at how quickly Balkan people become assimilated Americans within a single generation. I have cousins in Chicago and visited them so I know what I'm talking about.
vanity-flair83@reddit
Nice. Despite negative media coverage, im comfertetable in saying chicago is an awesome city. One of my high school friends moved there some 15-20 years ago and hasn't come back
PasicT@reddit
I have no problem with Chicago, I've been many times.
vanity-flair83@reddit
Yeah I guess "succeeded" depends on who you ask. I agree but many americans dont
Also, I purposely avoided talking about skin color so as not to get into a "woke" or partisan political argument. In some regards we're the most inclusive country, and in some regards ( often those very same regards) we're very tribal. Either way race is part of the equation, unfortunately.
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
So going back to what your great great etc parents called themselves before Serb and Croat nationalism was spread to Bosnia.
emirates01@reddit
That is a heavily reductive argument. The ordinary lilies symbol from the photo are the State symbol of the Republic of BiH and BiH 1992-1998. The Army of BiH symbol has swords on it. It is as distinctive as the Croat national symbol and HVO symbol.
The representation issue is strictly related to the Presidency. You fail to mention that the Croat national party HDZ is the most stable party in both State and Federal Governments, with it being basically impossible to form any coalition without them. With that comes heavy representation in the Council of Ministers, Constitutional Court, Border Police, Federal Ministry of Interior, various State and Federal agencies. Croats may face issues, but political underrepresentation certainly isn't it. Especially not on State and Federal level.
gladijajat0r@reddit
so why donât croats and serba use the neutral flag? lol
PasicT@reddit
Because they consider the mere existence of that flag and of the country to be a provocation.
Exilev2@reddit
me when i lie and spread misinformation
what about croats using the flag that was used to break up the country?
what about croats blocking the work of all public institutions and holding all key seats and ministries while crying âopressionâ because the performative presidential role is elected as per the dayton agreement which they signed as well?
what about croats not allowing people of other nationalities to play in some of their âhrvatski ĹĄportskiâ clubs in the league?
what about croats not allowing people of other nationalities to buy property in their little ethnically cleansed and pure towns?
tabulasomnia@reddit
this is a perfect description of actual nationalism btw
MagistarEFUNTZ@reddit
That is historic flag of Bosnia not Bosniak people.
Negative_Purchase773@reddit
It looks better.
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
Gen X and boomers making way for younger generations who werenât brainwashed by some bs about bratstvo i jedinstvo.
PasicT@reddit
Krajnje je vrijeme bilo!
Elmalukat@reddit
Because when you go the the Republica Srpska (one if the most obnoxious and sad parts if Balkans) their flag and Serbian flag is shown to your face every 50 meters.
So why should Bosniaks accommodate and use a neutral flag?
God job on Bosniaks, donât lose your identity
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
Flag of Republic Srpska is official one, recognized by Constitutional court of BiH.
It is not problem that Bosniaks use their flag, the problem is that they say that Bosnian national team represent every ethnicity, when it almost only represent Bosniaks.
AccomplishedQuit6535@reddit
I am from Bosnia and Herzegovina and I don't support BIH national team. It represents the most primitive nationalism.
PasicT@reddit
Then don't, we couldn't care less about your support.
AccomplishedQuit6535@reddit
Your comment is an example why Bosnia and Herzegovina is a failed state. People like you make it so.
PasicT@reddit
So failed that it continues to exist, much to your dismay.
cikeZ00@reddit
Honestly it only exists because it's being held together by the EU.
Had there not been so much outside support and intervention I think the country would have been long gone
PasicT@reddit
The EU? It's being held together by 1,5 million Bosniaks who make up 60% of the population.
The so-called "outside support" was done at the expense of Bosniaks many times.
cikeZ00@reddit
Ok. Let's say the EU provided zero economic support, zero oversight over the country and completely abandoned any efforts to stabilize it.
What happens?
AccomplishedQuit6535@reddit
All multiethnic states in the Balkans have expiration date. Bosnia and Herzegovina is first. North Macedonia will follow.
PasicT@reddit
Then the same could be said about Serbia who has hundreds of thousands of Albanians, Bosniaks and Hungarians living in the country.
AccomplishedQuit6535@reddit
Those are national minorities. Serbs are overwelming majority in Serbia so I don't think Serbia is in thecsame postion as the other teo I mentioned above. . Even North Macedonia is not as multiethnic as Bosnia and Herzegovina.
PasicT@reddit
There are national minorities because Serbia labels them as such in its constitution but that's not the point. The point is that if those minorities wanted to threaten Serbia's stability as a country, they could. I would be careful about cheering for the destruction of other countries when we all know what happened to Montenegro and Kosovo which were both part of Serbia some 25 years ago.
AccomplishedQuit6535@reddit
I am trying to say is that you cannot compare Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbia. Croats and Serbs in BiH are NOT minorities. Bosniaks And Hungarians in Serbia don't have the same status as Croats and Serbs in BiH. Serbia is a natinal state of Serbs while BiH is a complexed state if 3 nations.
PasicT@reddit
They are not minorities because of the US-authored constitution which introduced a concept that exists nowhere else in the world. In any other country in the world, people who make up less than 10% of the population like Croats today would be on the verge of being declared a national minority.
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
And Albanians were always present in Serbia, so whatâs your point? There are less Serbs and Croats, combined, in Bosnia than Bosniaks. The definition of minority.
AccomplishedQuit6535@reddit
Croats don't make less than 10% of population. That's Sarajevo's wishful thinking. Croats were always present in BiH as one of the 3 peoples that lived here. Croatian heritage is all over present day BiH.
PasicT@reddit
A proper census today would show that they at best make up 10% of population, it has nothing to do with someone's wishful thinking. And if they make 10% now, they will make less than 10% in just a few years.
Who said anything about Croatian heritage? That's an entirely different topic.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Why doesnt Bosnia do a population census? Its been a while since the last one and im lowkey interested in the numbers.
PasicT@reddit
Because your friends in HDZ BIH and SNSD are using vetos to prevent a new census.
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
All that plus a weapons embargo and foreign support for separatists happened in the 90s. Retards here acting like Bosnia was invented in the 90s and hasnât literally been around for over a thousand years.
cikeZ00@reddit
Brother, wtf are you yapping about lol
PasicT@reddit
Absolutely nothing happens, the EU isn't even our main economic support nowadays. And their infamous "oversight" has done more harm than good.
PersimmonTall8157@reddit
More like people like you đ¤Ą
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Define failed state, its still far from what is traditionally called failed state (like South Sudan).
PasicT@reddit
It almost only represent Bosniaks because Croats and especially Serbs don't want to play for the national team and then cry about being left out and being "oppressed" which is bullshit.
Responsible_Stop_823@reddit
7 Croats play for the NT, but this same nationalistic weirdo can't go 15 seconds without spewing hatred lol
PasicT@reddit
And more would play if they wanted to instead of running to Croatia and crying about how "oppressed" they are in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Quite a bit of it is alsp die to prestige, Croats from countries like Austria also opt to play for Croatia despite not being born there simply because it generally performs decently in major competitions, it consistently qualifues for turnaments like euro and wc.
Yes media likes to yap about how they do it oyt of theur love for their country, but realistically there is a lot of self ineterest at play.
PasicT@reddit
Of course there is self-interest in play, that's beside the point.
i_cnt_spll@reddit
The flag used is an internationally recognised flag in 90s for country of bosnia and herzegovina
It was in front of the UN in New York
Dont like it? Tough luck
stormthegreat@reddit
Dude, the lillies flag is the official, constitutional flag of the country. It was later replaced with the blue-yellow one.
PersimmonTall8157@reddit
Non Bosniak players in the team are honoured among the Bosniaks. The pure reason thereâs not much Serbs and Croats are purely cuz most of you hate Bosnia and the national team.
b0sanac@reddit
I'm confused. Serbs and Croats don't want to play for the Bosnian team and would rather play for "their country" but they cry about not being represented? Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Mother-Astronaut8784@reddit
Lol no its not, plenty of Croats too
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
Yea, it doesn't. One is supporting national team, other is being represented by it.
A lot of ex-yu support each others national teams as long as they don't play against theirs, doesn't mean they feel represented.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
Well Federation of BiH (another one of most obnoxious and sad part of Balkans) is also a Croatian part, why should they be excluded?
Or does this flag only represent the 23% of Bosniak teritorry?
TricKE3@reddit
DruĹže prodji hercegovinom. Na svakom koraku ti je zastava herceg-bosne.
b0sanac@reddit
What 23%? where does this number even come from? There's only 2 territories, RBIH and RS. RBIH is majority bosniak and croat so what are you talking about?
Razvalio@reddit
It is a made up number of % of territory where Bosniaks are the majority, they keep spamming it everywhere to make it feel like Bosniaks are a minority in their own country
ExtremeProfession@reddit
And Bosniaks are the majority in around 36% of the territory now, including almost all of Central Bosnia
b0sanac@reddit
Yeah yeah I'm an idiot, it's been a long day đ
MartinBP@reddit
I mean, the Bosnian Croat flag is also all over Croat areas, even in Mostar.
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
Bosniaks are in the process of nation building. It is essentially being pushed by Bosniak elites and adopted by ordinary people. Standard stuff that happens or rather has happened everywhere, it is just that Bosniaks are doing it a later than others and during the social media so it gains more traction. I have read that local vendors sell those flags very cheaply in front of stadiums so that more people have them.
kretenizam@reddit
It isn't being pushed by elites. Bosniak Muslims are tired of waving a flag that the other 2 constituent people don't support. So they are waving the Republic flag that was first used because they have more emotion towards it. There is no psyop by Bosniak elites here.Â
nerull77@reddit
Why care who supports it? Itâs your/our flag. If you need someone to approve waving your national flag itâs ridiculous.
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
Except that itâs not. The lilies flag is ours. The blue/yellow/star flag was literally imposed by foreigners to appease the others sides, which didnât really work.
nerull77@reddit
Imposed or not itâs an official country flag. You may like it or not but itâs still official and people are doing more harm than good with this attitude.
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
đ
theschiffer@reddit
How many more states are the Balkans going to split into?
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
The state of Bosnia already exists.
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
Eh, probably zero.
theschiffer@reddit
If theyâre building a nation, maybe theyâll demand their own nation state in time.
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
They do not need to, as time is on their side. One hundred years ago they made up around 30% of the population and had pretty much no ethnic identity outside of religion. Today they probably account for around 55% of population and have a developing and fairly well formed national identity, although there are still disagreements they have between themselves that they need to fix.
They simply have to continue pushing for centralization (although it is questionable how beneficial that will be), advocate for a single president, and continue promoting symbolism and iconography that ties medieval Bosnian history primarily to them, while portraying Croats and Serbs as "foreigners", despite the fact that there was no awareness of the "lilies" and medieval Bosnia or its kings among the Muslim population prior to the Austro-Hungarian occupation and even long after.
In the long run, they will probably "win", but the outcome will be the worst country in Europe. Around two million people have left over the past 30-40 years, and that trend will continue.
Euphoric-Interest219@reddit
Cry me a river Mr Dual Citizenship but never happy with anything. You're 10% of the population and have veto powers and still complaining.
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
What am I wrong about?
Euphoric-Interest219@reddit
You're complaining through the whole comment how "the evil Muslims are taking over", what's exactly the issue with Bosniaks being a majority in their own country and why will the country be worse than it is now if that happens. You are throwing jabs the entire time and are now surprised that people don't like you lamenting a group of people becoming a majority and claiming that they'll turn the country into a shithole unlike the "civilized Croats and Serbs".
Livid_Army1541@reddit
Bosnia isn't the country of the bosniaks as long as serbs and croats are in it,once you let the serbs and croats secede from bosnia and join their respective homelands only then will bosniaks get their state
Euphoric-Interest219@reddit
There we go, why not start with that instead of this crying nonsense. You can always leave the country, you have dual citizenship anyways, you are never seceding.
Livid_Army1541@reddit
Any attempt of establishing a unitary bosnia (a bosnia without entities and with a single president) would mean war,serbs do not want to live under bosniak domination and that is why i think that they will never do that,they don't have the balls to do it
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
They donât have political or military power to win. Doesn't matter how many of them they are, biggest powers are mostly on Croatian and Serbian side.
And Islamophobia is getting bigger and bigger in Europe, that means more enemies that will support other side.
Either way Dayton will remain.
PasicT@reddit
Yeah keep dreaming you will "peacefully" break up your own country.
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
I am not for breakup, but at the same time I am not for getting rid of entiteties.
I can say same for making "gradjanska" BiH.
World powers will not support either.
Euphoric-Interest219@reddit
We don't care about "world powers" my guy, they don't live here.
PasicT@reddit
Your opinion (or mine for that matter) is utterly irrelevant as are your wet dreams of being allowed to just annex territories at will.
Who are you to determine what world powers will support or not?
PersimmonTall8157@reddit
The Islamophobia in Europe has nothing to with Bosniaks. Itâs because of non-European immigration. If anything so are most western countries having a huge growth among the Muslims minority, they will be a bigger and more influential part of European if things keep going as they do now.
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
It doesn't, but people can't distinct between European muslims and non-European muslims. They see muslim they think of the worst ones, not the best ones.
MIkaela39752@reddit
55%? jel to stvarno tako? 2013. godine su srbi cinili oko 30% a hrvati 15-15,5% stanovnistva drzave, bosnjaci 50%
jel se srbi i hrvati iseljavaju u puno vecem postotku nego bosnjaci ili? ako da, zasto?
treba_dzemper@reddit
Hrvati se iz BiH iseljavaju iz raznih razloga, ali se veÄinom svodi na kombinaciju slijedeÄa dva:
ExtremeProfession@reddit
The 30% is a bit out of context because the census was done after a huge emigration of Bosniaks and Muslims in general during the Austria-Hungary days and Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Move that to 200 years ago and suddenly it's 70%.
J_k_r_@reddit
Div8d8ng by zero is a very balkan Nationalitätenpolitik thing to do.
BardhyliX@reddit
There's no big ethnicity in the Balkans that doesn't have a state, so 0.
ExtremeProfession@reddit
There's no such thing as Bosniak elites, especially now that anti nationalism and left leaning political parties dominate the Bosniak landscape.
This is more of a social movement among millennials and gen X to influence people and wake up their spite, basically giving in to the media picture of BiH.
thenordiner@reddit
all national movements were oushed by local elites, you think bosniaks are exempt from that
ExtremeProfession@reddit
I don't think they're exempt from that but the current times subjectively seem to me as some of the lowest nationalism levels in recent history among Bosniaks.
OmeletteDuFromage95@reddit
Disagree with this. This isn't a "Bosniaks elite" thing. This has been around for a long while. People didn't agree with having to form a new flag while the other two entities got to keep theirs.
teodorfon@reddit
Hahahaha can't belive this comment has the most upvotes đ
phariom@reddit
Isn't it absurd how humans go around waving flags with symbols from 700 years ago that have nothing to do with them personally and feeling great emotions? One day we will all die and it will be as if we never even existed (both individually and collectively). And it's not just this specific case, but all of humanity doing the same.Â
Truly a joke of cosmic proportions.Â
Maximus_Dominus@reddit
Bla bla bla
maimutaAfricana@reddit
I feel like this comment is not about flags :))
If there is no God, then everything is purposeless.
KackhansReborn@reddit
You make your own purpose
rndmlgnd@reddit
Most stuff is and it's not by accident. We are purposefully being dumbed down and distracted since birth.
casastorta@reddit
Rise of Bosniak nationalism is sad, but understandable considering dive into insanity of Serbia and to some degree also Croatia. đ¤ˇđťââď¸
PasicT@reddit
At least you have the honesty to acknowledge your country's role in all of this instead of blaming Bosniaks for everything.
casastorta@reddit
Oh, situation in Croatia is completely fucked up. Only saving grace is that situation in Serbia is even crazier.
Consequently, situation with Bosnian Catholics (âCroatsâ) is sliding out of control. When Croatia slides into 1990s, Bosnian Catholics slide into 1941.
They completely took up the Israeli-style rhetorics about Herzegovina calling it literally âHoly Landâ which I havenât heard it being called seriously like that before⌠They fully leaned onto Christian nationalism counting on that Bosnia as a country is cooked with Trump being elected - strategy which didnât exactly work well for Dodik.
Bosniaks, as usual with nationalism, are just responding to trends. That is why I say itâs sad and not concerning - Bosnia, if itâs cooked, will be cooked not because of who is president of America but because young Bosniaks will abandon Bosnian unitarism as a political direction. And that seems to be happening.
PasicT@reddit
Young Bosniaks are not in favor of "Bosnian unitarism" (whatever that is), they just want a normal and functioning country and no longer feel like accomodating people who hate their guts and will never change.
casastorta@reddit
Exactly what I said and that will, unless the tide turns, lead to break up of Bosnia eventually. If it will be peaceful, Bosniak state is almost warranted, which is likely what you want to hear. If itâs through the war again everything is possible.
PasicT@reddit
I don't want a Bosniak state, I want a normal and functioning state. Croats and Serbs who love Bosnia-Herzegovina are welcome to stay and participate in creating a normal and functioning state in which they will have equal rights.
casastorta@reddit
So youâre a Bosnian unitarist but youâve chosen somehow to mix it with Bosniak nationalism.
Again, coming back to my first comment here - understandable but sad, and it will likely be the end of Bosnia.
PasicT@reddit
I'm neither a unitarist nor a nationalist, I just want a normal and functioning country.
It won't be the end of Bosnia, the end of Bosnia would be to just give Serbs and Croats everything they want in the name of "peace" and end up like the Palestinians.
casastorta@reddit
And somehow you are circling back to my arguments trying to oppose me, this is truly incredible. I already wrote how Bosnian Catholics took on Israeli-style âholy landâ propaganda.
So, if when no more mahority of Bosniaks will be Bosnian unitarists, and majority of other two major religious groups of Bosnians arenât either - there will be no Bosnia anymore as there will be no nobody to push for living together.
PasicT@reddit
60% of people living in Bosnia-Herzegovina want a normal and functioning country and that percentage is rising every year.
casastorta@reddit
That phrase means literally nothing. For 85% of Catholics in Herzegovina that means separate entity closer to Zagreb than Sarajevo.
Source of the stats for both of us is the same: our respective asses.
PasicT@reddit
I don't care what it means for Catholics in Herzegovina.
casastorta@reddit
Exactly.
aBlindGeminiWhisper@reddit
I think the original bosnian coat of arms is so peak.
KvikerEz@reddit
turk glazing bosnia
aBlindGeminiWhisper@reddit
I mean who doesn't?
Due_Constant9581@reddit
So true hahaha everyone has their mouthful with Bosnia and itâs deserved one of the most talked about places in Europe right now
sylveria34@reddit
To be honest, Bosniak nationalism is pretty tame. If a sign of nationalism is waving a cool old flag I guess you can call that pretty tame and it's not like we disregard the official one. We use and like it still,it's just that this one has more meaning.
PasicT@reddit
Waving the old flag is not "Bosniak nationalism".
BandAdditional6084@reddit
White with liliums is our original flag that our local enemies hate.
c0ppo@reddit
White liliums with cross is the original flag. You simply removed the cross from the flag.
Celtic_RTDB@reddit (OP)
Is that why you guys are using it more frequently in football now? Is there more animosity now than 10 years ago? (Btw, Bosnia is my team in the world cup since Ireland aren't in it. Good luck!đŽđŞđ¤đ§đŚ)
DragonOfBosnia@reddit
We adopted the blue/yellow flag to have a neutral flag that everyone could use too. But they donât, Serbs and Croats tend to be ultra nationalistic and they flew their own flags everywhere in Bosnia. Bosnians just waking up, why be the idiot that tries to always be the neutral side.
BandAdditional6084@reddit
Also, thanks for support. I hope we'll do well
uoguner@reddit
Bosnia is such a unique country as it is. Both their national flag with 6 lilies and religious flag, old rumelian flag, are amazing. Which show their connections to their roots.
It is understandable that dayton flag is losing popularity nowadays, because noone other than bosniaks use it.
madmendude@reddit
ITT: We Bosnians are just gud boyz who didn't do nuffin'
FuzzyAmbassador663@reddit
Because my welding machine is older that the countries of balkan.
Piss-frog@reddit
We should all just get along
Same_Staff4468@reddit
where's the fun in that?
Keno112@reddit
Oh nyooo bosniaks want their own shit lets start a fucking war over it again
PasicT@reddit
Because Bosnians/Bosniaks got tired of bending over backwards unilaterally to accomodate people who hate their guts and the country they live in.
deviendrais@reddit
There's an easy solution for all your problems but you won't like it I fear
Prestigious-Second28@reddit
Hmm, I wonder, you know just how about this little suggestion where you Serbs just kind of stick to you know... your own damn country and stop causing wars and attacking neighbours. Just a little hint.
BarskiPatzow@reddit
Has it occured to you that Serbs and Croats lived in that country for centuries too and it is also their country?
Prestigious-Second28@reddit
Did I suggest otherwise? Has it occurred to you that the map above is balkan bloodspill? And what if this was the map? Only a matter of time before you say they have been living for centuries everywhere and try to take that too... Was Bosnia promised to you centuries ago, vojvoda?
BarskiPatzow@reddit
I was addressing the part where Serbs are meant to stick to their own country. Bosnia is the country of those that live in it, not only Bosniaks.
PasicT@reddit
Then how about you start respecting it instead of threatning violence and secession every other day?
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Like you respected Yugoslavia?Â
PasicT@reddit
Dosadna je ta prica, I already explained all of that about 10 times to you. I never see you attacking anyone else for leaving Yugoslavia, conveniently it only matters to you that Bosniaks did that.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Stop fantasizing, touch some grass. Calm down. You spend too much time in fascist nationalistic forums, it's not healthy.
Prestigious-Second28@reddit
r/lostredditors
Shqiptar89@reddit
Who are you going to send this time? Bosnians wonât be fooled again and this time you donât have people from other republics.Â
Who are you going to send? Lepa Mica from Zadruga?Â
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
It's so funny. So you believe Kosovo should be independant, because Albanians live there, but have a problem when Croatian and Serbian majority living in Bosnia since Bosnia exists to have their own independance. You are literally angry at the map some Slovenian officials proposed as a solution based on the people who live in those regions. Are you even familiar with that or are you just hating for the sake of hating?
Shqiptar89@reddit
Hahahaha itâs different between people who live in one place and people who occupy it illegally.Â
Republika Srpska is a fake state derived from rape camps and genocide.Â
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Please educate yourself on the fact that Bosnia was never an ethnostate. It was not occupied. Croatian and Serbian people have been living there since the beginning, since kingdom of Bosnia. The war in Bosnia was a civil war amongst the people living there who wanted different things as Bosnia was separating from Yugoslavia. And it was a 3-way war.
PasicT@reddit
It was not a civil war, that's just your Serb irredentist narrative that nobody supports and nobody cares about except yourselves. It was a joint war of aggression by Croatia and Serbia on a sovereign state with help from their local separatist proxies within Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Sure buddy, tell that to Nikola GardoviÄ.
PasicT@reddit
The war didn't start because of his murder and before his murder 4 Bosniaks were killed in late 1991 and early 1992 by Serbs.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
Why would we send anyone?
Also, do you really think people from other republics fought for Serbia?
Shqiptar89@reddit
You forced some poor schmuck to go to Croatia to fight your vile wars. Â
But like I said. You can send the cast of zadruga and that chick that won the EurovisionâŚ
Prince_Hastur@reddit
I am under the impression that you think people from other Yugoslav republics fought for Serbia. What you said now doesn't really make any sense.
JNA that fought wars was Serbian, there were no people from "other republics" at that point
I have never seen an Albanian watch Serbian reality TV. This is very interesting, why do you know about that? Is it popular in Albania?
Shqiptar89@reddit
Iâm an Albanian from the free republic of Kosovo. Can you say that cetnik boy?Â
Prince_Hastur@reddit
What does that have to do with this discussion? I pointed out you were wrong and you started foaming at your mouth, spewing provocations?
Truly the lowest IQ in Europe.
Shqiptar89@reddit
Why argue with a genocide denier? You canât even admit that your vile country forced other people to go and fight your wars.Â
Unlike you I actually know Albanians that were forced to fight in Croatia for you. Thankfully almost all of them deserted. You donât deserve anything less. Actually the best thing wouldâve been if they killed your soldiers but you canât have everything :)Â
Prince_Hastur@reddit
So did they fight or did they desert? Only Serbs fought for Serbia, like Bosniaks fought for Bosnia. Albanians didn't fight for Kosovo though, you need NATO for that. Imagine thinking a cowardly deserter can kill anyone lmao. But that's the Albanian way, kill them while they sleep. Of course, that only works in their dreams.
Well, we got a significant part of Bosnia, so I wouldn't say nothing.
Shqiptar89@reddit
Unlike you we fought against soldiers. We didnât rape women and children. Or are you going to say that it didnât happen? The rape camps are there.Â
Got a part of Bosnia? Itâs only temporarily. Just like Sanxhak :)Â
Prince_Hastur@reddit
Yeah, in your dreams lmao. Who are you going to send? Dua Lipa? Americans are done fighting your battles for you. Soon you will have to pay for NATO membership as well. Better emigrate to Switzerland like your uncle soon.
Shqiptar89@reddit
You want to lose a fourth war?
Fine-Ear-8103@reddit
They literally took Albanians from Kosovo and sent them to the front line some with no bullets thatâs why Croatia ended up with up to 10k Albanian soldiers they left the Serbian side to fight for Croatia.
deviendrais@reddit
Idunno who that lady is. What's up with albanians knowing more about trashy Serbian reality shows than I do
Shqiptar89@reddit
Hahaha lady? My bad. Lepi Mica. Of course you know who that is. Your homegrown cetnik singer.Â
O_945@reddit
Even if we ignore everything about Balkan history & culture and just focus on administration, that little exclave could cause WW3
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
There is a Bosnian exclave in Serbia already - MeÄureÄje
deviendrais@reddit
Until very recently Croatia also had an exclave with 100k people living in it and they had to cross Bosnian territory to enter Croatia proper. No WW3 hapened
PasicT@reddit
In your dreams only.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
So you want to accommodate teritorry, but not the people living on it?
PasicT@reddit
There is no point in accomodating people who hate the country they live in at the expense of a stable state.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
So what's the problem with the proposed map then? Why don't you just let them fuck off and have your own state?
PreWiBa@reddit
Because you cant demand territory you committed a genocide on.
stray__bullet@reddit
Then Bosniaks can't demand Bosnia and Herzegovina because they committed a genocide against Serb there in WWII
PasicT@reddit
We can and we have it, keep your srbovanje for your nationalist circles.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
So what's the solution then? Have a country that will never do anywhere because 2/3 of its population doesn't want to live in it?
PasicT@reddit
Because they already have their own state: Croatia and Serbia. It's supreme arrogance and madness to ask for additional states on the side.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
Didn't Albanians in Kosovo already have their own state as well? Yet they got an additional state on the side?
PasicT@reddit
And they shouldn't have, I was against Kosovo becoming an independent state.
Prince_Hastur@reddit
Okay well, at least you are consistent.
I am still wondering how do you expect your country to work if 2/3 don't want to be a part of it.
PasicT@reddit
Not 2/3, more like 40%. They will have to adapt or leave, it's that simple. The time for Bosniak perpetual and one-sided accomodation is over. Bosniaks have had to accept a lot of nonsense in the past 30 years that wouldn't fly anywhere else in the world in the name of "tolerance" and "peace".
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Dude, you want to purge almost 50% of the country. This is not some minority, 5% or 15%, this is just a little bit short of half. I don't know if you know that what you are proposing is ethnic cleansing.
PasicT@reddit
Who said anything about purging almost 50% of the country? We're simply done bending over backwards to accomodate them and basically apologizing to them for merely existing.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Drama Queen much.
PasicT@reddit
Drama queens are those who stay living in a country they hate and expect everyone to bow in compliance to them while crying about how "oppressed" they are.
as5m4n69@reddit
Where do you get the 2/3? Serbs and Croats together are 46% and not all of them hate Bosnia..
Prince_Hastur@reddit
2/3 of teritorry, not population but yeah, you are correct.
46% is still a large number, and yeah, not all of them hate Bosnia, but these flags do not help really.
deviendrais@reddit
Stable đ
AdvancedAd3228@reddit
PasicT@reddit
The more you accomodate ethno-nationalists, the less stable the state is. This is true in every single country in the world.
Former_Scheme_1523@reddit
PiĹĄam ti mami u usta
PapaStorm@reddit
Yea a very easy solution indeed
ReachEuphoric3595@reddit
Is this Bosnian map under King Tvrtko?
PapaStorm@reddit
Not sure, i think it is kingdom of bosnia at its greatest extent
PasicT@reddit
That's basically what it is, yes.
jozo-white@reddit
Lazes kao Srbin
deviendrais@reddit
And you're as creative as a Croat
jozo-white@reddit
Istina boli znam - nema veze potrudi se da dobijes 10⏠baksis-a kad dodjes na more konobarit!
deviendrais@reddit
Hvala brate moj đâ¤ď¸ Ĺželim i ja tebi dobar bakĹĄiĹĄ kad odeĹĄ za Irsku da radiĹĄ u staraÄkom domu đ
Elmalukat@reddit
Indeed, like having those who donât like the flag move to Serbia.
deviendrais@reddit
Man even those who like the white flag are moving to Germany
CrnoCapor@reddit
Ok then release Herzegovinians to be their own country and problem solved. Either disolve Republika Srpska or give it to Serbia. Do something instead of being pissy that you have to share a country like you did for centuries. Y'all weren't this pissy during SFRJ
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
The first thing to do would probably be to do a census, as nearly all our debates are based on data from before the breakup of Yougoslavia.
Maybe they'll need to go first through a mini-schengen step before settling their issues or they'll do like the British and Irish and do their own GFA as they join the EU, but I have hope for the western balkans.
PasicT@reddit
Release? Plenty of Bosniaks live in Herzegovina. Also, Herzegovina is not a country, it doesn't even have defined borders or anything else. No one is pissy about sharing a country like Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs who find it hard to live in a country they publicly despise and who's existence they have never accepted. In the long run, they are on the losing end.
rndmlgnd@reddit
Because we've had enough
teodorfon@reddit
Best comment, for all I care they can put the dayton flag on banski dvor, we bosniaks don't care anymore. They had 30 years to build a Bosnian state with us.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Bosniak nationalism. Youâve seen the Croatian and Serbian forms, well, this is what the Slavic Muslim one looks like
PasicT@reddit
The lilly flag has nothing to do with Islam or with "Bosniak nationalism".
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Right. Donât see any Croatians or Serbians using it though
PasicT@reddit
Because they are brainwashed from birth to reject it and hate anything Bosnian.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
So why donât the Muslims just use the national flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina then?
PasicT@reddit
Because it's pointless. It's an imposed flag that doesn't represent anything, it was adopted to satisfy the other two ethnic groups yet they still actively avoid using it unless they are required to by law. Fuck that, we're done bending over backwards to accomodate them and their whims.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
So youâre using the Lily flag instead. And youâre using it instead of the regular flag because you know it represents ⌠đŚťđť?
Exactly.
PasicT@reddit
It represents the Bosnian state which, if most Croats and Serbs had it their way, wouldn't exist. Like I said, we're done bending over backwards to accomodate them and their whims.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
So youâre engaging in Bosniak nationalism, which is exactly what I said.
PasicT@reddit
Refusing to bow in compliance to those who hate Bosniaks as well as the country they live in and refusing to apologize essentially for merely existing is not "Bosniak nationalism".
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
What a coincidence, thatâs exactly what the Croats say theyâre doing! The least nationalist country in Europe is Bosnia and Herzegovina⌠as it turns out.
PasicT@reddit
Except nobody is asking, expecting or demanding Croats bow in compliance to anybody, that is only asked, expected and demanded to Bosniaks.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Thatâs your perspective. You might consider it from their point of view.
PasicT@reddit
A perspective that is shared by a majority of BIH citizens as well as foreigners who read about our country and visit it.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Which is not the victims (Croat) perspective.
By 2/3 of the country perspective, youâve already got your own country and have nothing to complain about. You control the money, politics, population and the image of the country, what more do you want in a country that is not yours?
Canât take everything away from everyone. And the fact that such little pushback triggers such a victim narrative in you is definitely not a sign of nationalism. Sure.
PasicT@reddit
Croats aren't the victims in Bosnia, not even remotely. They have far more rights than any other ethnic group in their situation anywhere in the world yet they still cry and complain.
Who are you to tell me my own country isn't mine!?? I guess I should leave it to those who chant "jebem te Bosno, jebem te ja, Hrvatska moja domovina" during football games and paint murals in honor of convicted war criminals. Then they have the nerve and the supreme arrogance to cry about "oppression".
What pushback? The only ones who are trying to take something from someone are Croats (and Serbs). That's why Croats wrote to FIFA a few weeks ago to request that the flag of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina be banned from the stands during World Cup games. You're not fooling anyone.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Thatâs according to you.
You cannot say âmyâ country. Legally, historically and contemporarily the country is âour countryâ. Youâd do well to remember that. How could someone not be oppressed in a country where one group (Bosniaks) call the country âtheirsâ, completely disregarding a whole constitutional peopleâs. Serbs have republika srpska, but the only entity that Croats have represents the Bosniaks and Bosniak affairs.
Just look at the âCroatâ presidentâ.
No, you donât fool anyone. Youâre a nationalistic Bosniaks that wants a âgraÄanska Bosna i Hercegovinaâ gdje se Muslimani pitaju.
Youâre literally the reason no one wants to work together. Maybe stop pointing the finger at others for once.
PasicT@reddit
It's my country as much as yours. The glaring difference of course being that I love it and want to preserve it while you hate it and seek to destroy it or "at best" to make it as dysfunctional as possible to then later get rewarded with territory and achieve "peacefully" what your people couldn't achieve with tanks, grenades and guns some 30 years ago.
Zeljko Komsic is a direct result of decades of Greater Croatia irrendentism, ethnic sectarianism as well as fascistic hatred towards Bosniaks, you reap what you sow. Go cry to the EU about how "oppressed" you are, that's the only thing you are good at.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
The only one whoâs destroying the country is all three of us because we donât work together. And the reason we donât work together is because the Bosniaks have given us no reason to trust them. As I said, they actively seek âgraÄansku Bosnu i Hercegovinuâ gdje se muslimani pitaju. Weâve had you figured out for years.
Youâre putting words in my mouth, because I never said I hate BiH. I called it my country, which it is. And my people as well as your people did not try to take anything 30 years ago. We were defending ourselves.
The nationalistic Bosniak in the Federation is infuriated by the fact he is not a Palestinian surrounded by Jews. Such victimhood would allow ultimate bragging rights and a monopolization of claims regarding the country. As a result of a frustrated and bratty temper but no leg to stand on, he sells himself out to the Middle East and creates a cultural abomination in âhis ownâ country, just to spite his neighbour.
Hopefully Croats continue to advocate for their oppressed experience living in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Ideally the EU does something about it. You can complain about to your allies to feel better.
Anyways, that flag represents all of that ^ and people like you. It wonât do anything other than fan the flames. If they want to burn the country down to rule over the ashes, then theyâre as stupid as they are nationalistic.
PasicT@reddit
Where's the will to work together when both Croat and Serb politicians block or veto important national projects and EU accession demands simply in order to screw over Bosniaks? There is absolutely no one on the Bosniak side advocating for what you're accusing Bosniaks of advocating for. We want a normal and functioning country with no ethnic divisions, nothing more, nothing less.
Sure, please tell Bosniaks in Capljina or Stolac how you were defending yourselves when your people were putting them in concentration camps, stealing and burning their properties, raping their wives or daughters and demolishing their places of worship. The same thing was done to Bosniaks in Central Bosnia, we know what it looks like when Croats "defend themselves", we're not dumb nor do we accept to be fooled so spare us your revionist bullshit.
No one wants to be a Palestinian surrounded by Jews. With that being said, if Croats had it their way, they would turn Bosniaks into the new Palestinians but they can't because they don't have the demography or the manpower needed to do that. So instead, Croats resort to financial and economical crimes as well as ethnic segregation and discrimination, basically anything they can do to make Bosniak lives miserable and force them to leave.
There is no oppressed experience from Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina, go to Palestine, China or northern Iraq to see what actual oppression looks like. Croats are a privilege ethnic group in Bosnia-Herzegovina who have more rights than any other ethnic group in their situation in any other country in the world yet still cry about "oppression". And for the record, if our own country oppresses you so much, nobody is forcing you to stay living here. Go where you feel more welcomed, I suggest Croatia since you like to sing songs all the time where you express your deep love for that country as opposed to your own.
You were accusing us of "fanning the flames" when we were using the current national flag, nothing will ever satisfy you because you constantly demand respect while respecting no one and nobody but yourselves. You're exactly like Serbs and you don't even realize it, there's a reason we call it a joint criminal enterprise.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Well sucks that you have to listen to us my friend. That attitude isnât helping your case and is only further proving what I just said. You canât do anything without us, so you better start looking at us like fellow citizens and not as a âjoint criminal enterpriseâ. Beggars canât be choosers, and in a country like ours everyone is a beggar. And actually, Bosniaks advocate for exactly what I say they advocate for. Visit Sarajevo at any time of year to see the results.
Bosniaks arenât leaving in as nearly many numbers as Croats, because the Bosniaks have made it unliveable for them.
Obviously youâre going to say Croats arenât being oppressed and that in fact youâre the one being oppressed ⌠youâre the oppressor! Thatâs what they always say. You want to be Palestinian so bad, and itâs so shockingly offensive and deplorable that you envy the status of a violently disenfranchised people undergoing a genocide as of current.
Our family friend was murdered by Bosnian Muslims. Shot the mother in the leg as they were running away. When the rest of the family tried to come back for her, the Bosnian Muslims took sadistic pleasure in shooting at the ground so that they couldnât approach closer. They watched their mother bleed out while crying out for help as the Bosniaks enjoyed the show. They still havenât recovered, and you wave that flag in their face.
PasicT@reddit
We all have to listen to each other but the time of expected unilateral and one-sided compliance by default from Bosniaks is over. Where in Sarajevo is a civic state where Bosniaks would rule over everyone else advocated "at any time of year"?
Croats are leaving because they have EU passports, not because Bosniaks made anything unliveable for them. I suggest you look into how fun it is for Bosniaks to live anywhere where they are a minority in their own country before you cry about "oppression" again. You can start with Stolac and Capljina to name just two. Croats and Serbs talk a great deal about their rights but wherever they have a say on everything, Bosniaks are treated as second class citizens with little to no rights (discrimination in school and institutions, attacks on returnees, burning of flags, nationalist chants and provocations left and right). It was never about rights, always about political domination over others and at the expense of a stable state which you despise anyways.
Why would Bosniaks want to be Palestinians when the Palestinians don't even have their own country and live under constant bombing and surveillance or scattered across several countries in refugee camps? It's Croats and Serbs who want to turn Bosniaks into the new Palestinians, that was always the plan and this goes back several decades even before the war in the 1990s.
Am I supposed to feel guilty for what someone did to your family friend 30+ years ago? It wasn't done while waving the flag of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was the legitimate and recognized flag of our country from 1992 to 1998 until it was forcibly changed along with the national anthem to accomodate you and Serbs. I'm not going to stop waving a legitimate and recognized flag because of what someone did to your family friend.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
The fact that you are talking about how bad Croats and Serbs want to âturn Bosniaks into Palestiniansâ is definitely you projecting. Just because you want it doesnât mean it will happen
Stolac and Capljina were bad, although there are two sides to the Stolac story. Vitez was bad too. So was Konjic. So was Grabovica. I know those donât matter to you, and thatâs part of the reason no one wants to work with you. You downplay their suffering and monopolize it for yourself, just so that you have ultimate say in the country. We wonât let you, because the suffering is not yours alone. You caused some of it, unprovoked, to others. And you have never apologized.
That flag is nationalistic. Youâre no better than any single person youâve accused. I donât know how much simpler I can make the explanation for you. Youâre just ignorant and so brainwashed by lies youâve been fed since birth youâre a basket case. Thereâs no reasoning with you, which is what many people in this country have figured out about one another, so they look after their own affairs.
And you want us to work with you and call everyone else stubborn but yourself. Youâre perfect. Everything you do is right and infallible because youâre the victim. We should just do whatever you wanna do.
Dry-Rub-3968@reddit
We Bosniaks are tired of having to support a flag which does not symbolise us so we now support our old and only real flag that means something to us
NOTExETON@reddit
Bosnia as a whole is still under Envoy control. That should be their primary concern not flags or neighborsÂ
PasicT@reddit
No such thing as being under "envoy control". We'll decide what our primary concern is, not you.
NOTExETON@reddit
The big man Soreca still ultimately decides what happens. All the other shit is a show just to pacify the populace. Foreigners own the whole country as well. Why do I have to go to Sarajevo and grease an Arabs palms just to open a factory in Krajina? That is not a country but a 3 way refugee camp.Â
PasicT@reddit
Soreca has no say whatsover in what goes on in Bosnia.
Then don't go to Sarajevo, no one is forcing you to. Stay in your ethno-nationalist bubble instead and make sure you spit on your own country. Udri jos malo, nije dovoljno.
NOTExETON@reddit
You dont open a business like that with out getting licensing from Sarajevo, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. People like you are part of the reason I left and never plan on returning to that shithole. Enjoy being proud of a pile of garbage you dont own or control and will not for the foreseeable future.Â
Pijuuuuuuuuuup@reddit
Zbog da jedes govna.
Shqiptar89@reddit
Because the original flag is a beautiful flag. Not this crap that EU forced upon them to accommodate a bunch of vile cetniks.Â
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
PART 2
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Let me show you who and what you are fighting for, just scroll, it is part of this same discussion: PART 1
Prince_Hastur@reddit
Don't forget Croats, everyone always forgets about Croats
KingAbyy@reddit
Letâs remember a bit of history: When the High Representative removed the old flag and imposed a new one (because Croats and Serbs, through Parliament, blocked the election of any new flag), it did not take long for it to truly come alive among Bosniaks, not only as a state flag but also as a national one, while the old flag fell into the background and, for a time, even into slight oblivion. Therefore, there was a period when the new flag prevailed among Bosniaks, which was especially visible at sports and cultural events. Of course, the old flag still appeared, but in much smaller numbers. This remained the case until around 2013/14, when the situation slowly but surely began to change.
How did Croats and Serbs react to the new flag? Extremely negatively, to the point that I do not even know where to begin. They literally refused to hang it on institutions, especially where they dominate. The more radical parts of those peoples often insulted and attacked Bosniaks because of it, and even those who were not radical looked negatively upon those carrying it. In other words, from the very beginning they rejected the new flag and associated it with Bosniaks. A lot of time passed before Croats and Serbs (though somewhat more Croats) began to use it, but exclusively for institutional and state purposes, and even that could be inconsistent and still is because sometimes it is present and sometimes it is not. In short, politics accepted it because it had to, while the people did not because they did not have to. Without even looking for reasons why, the very fact that they viewed accepting it as a choice rather than something natural and logical, which would be expected of them, tells us everything we need to know. They themselves defined their relationship toward Bosnia and Herzegovina, not us. We did not take lilies and stars away from them; they themselves abandoned them and left them to us. We did not nationalize our historical Bosnian territorial-national name âBosniakâ in order to take it away from them; they abandoned it and left it to us. We did not tie Bosnia and Herzegovina to ourselves; they abandoned it and left it to us, at least in an identity and emotional sense, while keeping their political rights. Unable to accept that fact, they construct false narratives to justify their behavior and attack us for various reasons. Bosnia and Herzegovina may be their homeland, but their hearts still beat for Croatia and Serbia because they tied themselves to those two countries and peoples long ago, which makes this state merely a homeland on paper for them, something secondary at best. Honor to the brave exceptions.
Now, back to the flags. The primary reason for the increasing rejection of the new flag and return to the old one by the Bosniak people is the realization that the new flag did not justify the reason for replacing the old one. The idea behind the new flag failed. The symbolism and meanings, over time, from the Bosniak national perspective, became irrelevant because whichever flag we waved, our neighbors would view them almost the same. Perhaps Bosniaks from Bosniak-majority areas do not see it that way, but ask any Bosniak from a mixed area or a place where we are a minority and you will see what people tell you. Neither Croats nor Serbs can be persuaded or forced. Hand on heart, perhaps not even irritated anymore, considering that the lilies genuinely bother them much more. We Bosniaks truly hoped that by accepting the new flag we could maintain a sense of identification with this state completely, together with our neighbors. Not through some common national identity, but purely a state one, perhaps also a cultural-national one, without political dimensions. Unfortunately, after 30 years it turned out that despite using the new flag we remained alone, only a third of the population, just as when we used or use the old flag. My neighbors were just as indifferent or opposed to Bosnia and Herzegovina in 2014 as they are today. The only thing that changed is public expression against the state, while what they hold inside has remained almost the same. Again, honor to the exceptions.
Since that is the case, what is the point of using something we accepted in the hope that it could be different? We would rather use what we truly want and love because if we are alone, we will be alone in our own way. The very fact that we think this way tells us that we are organically beginning to reject what we no longer believe in, without rejecting what is at the center of that belief â Bosnia and Herzegovina. What we are seeing today around the national team is merely a symptom of a kind of Bosniak national awakening caused by everything that has happened since the end of the war until today, of which the previously mentioned rejection is a constituent part. This can no longer be stopped and has become a trend (for example, people take flags with lilies and remove the stars because they feel something they cannot describe), and what it will lead to remains to be seen. This qualification has definitely only inflamed national emotions and accelerated the process.
However, one thing is now certain: Croats and Serbs missed their opportunity to build Bosnia and Herzegovina with us the way it should have been built after the war because it is now more than obvious that the Bosniak people no longer wish to adapt to either side for the sake of common unity and the common good. Want proof? Just look at Bosniak celebrations regarding playoff matches and qualification campaigns and look at the flags in the stands during matches. Therefore, dear neighbors, do you want to support Bosnia and Herzegovina together with us? Adapt to us, or feel free to watch from the sidelines. We Bosniaks may be a political third in this state, but we will never accept identifying with it in the way you want and demand from us, and sometimes condition us, and more often threaten us: âbecause, you know, maybe there will no longer be this state if you Bosniaks are like this, if you do not do this or that,â etc. Irrelevant. We will cheer the way we want and wave the flags we want. For you, the lilies may be an ethnically Bosniak symbol, but for us they are not, and we will behave according to our own values, opinions, and wishes, not yours. You never had and do not have understanding for us; neither will we have it for you, end of story. Think what you want and be as angry as you want; it absolutely no longer concerns me, nor most Bosniaks today.
I am sorry that I have to write this this way only because of those Croats and Serbs who are with us.
philipplain@reddit
I could not have explained it any better. I subscribe to this
BandAdditional6084@reddit
We are very attached to old one bcs it used to be our flag in pre-ottiman era and after the independence from Yugoslavia. The new one is euro generic bullshit made to satisfy all 3 nations here. Our ethnonational flag is our main one. However, we have usurpers living in our country who don't like our flag because it reminds them that we are everything they are not - a nation.
Old_Performer8531@reddit
LOL you are attached to the old pre-Ottoman flag :D.
Mate, as a citizen of Yugoslavia, I can tell you that exactly 0% of Muslims/Bosniaks were attached to this flag in Yugoslavia, simply because no one had ever seen it or used it.
The white and blue lily flag was actually introduced at the dawn of the Yugoslav wars by Muslim/Bosniak political elites.
It was commissioned by the SDA-led government (Muslim nationalist party in Yugoslavia), and officially adopted in 1992, during the height of rising ultranationalism and beginning of the war.
It was replaced because the other ethnic groups did not accept it as a shared symbol.
It is de facto a modern Bosniak national flag dating from 90âs.
Regarding the medieval flag of King Stephan Tvrtko I KotromaniÄ from pre-Ottoman times, you mentioned. Today, no one really knows exactly what it looked like.
Historically, it was most probably a red coat of arms, not blue. As it heavily connected Tvrtko to the royal heritage and red-and-gold color palette of his royal family, the NemanjiÄ dynasty.
BandAdditional6084@reddit
They didn't know about the flag because everything was surpressed, first by ottoman-serbs and then by yugo-komunist-serbs.
Its funny to talk with you serbs, you do mental gymnastics in every discussion to mention your "dynasties".
"Nemanjici" were not even Serbs hahahaha. Our colors were always white and blue, even 3 hundred years before Tvrtko we had white&blue. Blue (and purple) were colors of kings. Red was lower level.
He only mentioned connection to "nemanjiÄ" dynasty to claim serbian crown.
Discussimg with serbs is like talking to kid - you always make your point even when its is absurd
Old_Performer8531@reddit
I am sorry you feel like that, itâs just mainstream historical facts.
Muslims/Bosniaks were not supressed or treated different to other nations living in Bosnia during a communist era. All nations from Bosnia officaly used slavic tri color flag and communist coat of arms, without any ethnic symbols.
I wish you the best.
DragonOfBosnia@reddit
Really, when the census came out Bosnian Muslim wasnât even an option lol
PasicT@reddit
The mere fact that they weren't allowed to refer to themselves as Bosniaks shows they were suppressed and oppressed.
DragonOfBosnia@reddit
Thatâs because during Yugoslavia time, Muslims and Bosnians were discriminated against. We should have adopted the green flag of Bosnia with crescent moon.
DragonOfBosnia@reddit
Thatâs because during Yugoslavia time, Muslims and Bosnians were discriminated against. We should have adopted the green flag of Bosnia with crescent moon.
MartinBP@reddit
It's objectively a better looking flag and it has nationalistic undertones since it's the actual Bosniak flag. The official blue-yellow one was just a compromise after Dayton and doesn't have any cultural or historic significance behind it. Plus Republika Srpska barely even uses it. This is the parliament in Banja Luka. This is the interior.
Snoo-19350@reddit
Meaning and intention aside I actually think the current Bosnian flag is a very good one from a purely vexillological perspective. There's plenty of symbolism, the triangle even shows the country shape, it has a European undertone as well. Also it's a unique design.
Sadly neither of the 3 ethnic groups really connect with the flag so the meaning is lost in practice.
PasicT@reddit
There is no "Bosniak flag", the flag of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is not a "Bosniak flag".
whiteoba@reddit
The official one is imposed, but people were willing to give it a shot if it seemed like the powers that be were generally serving Bosniaâs interest. Since then theyâve done things, like the 2022 election law changes, that suggest otherwise. Therefore, our people go back to the flag they actually want.
DragonOfBosnia@reddit
AogamiBunka@reddit
I much prefer the fleur-de-lis flag. It would have made sense to represent three nations, and the Holy Trinity. The Serbs use the fleur-de-lis on their flag, Croatians have many images using the fleur-de-lis along their coastal cities, and the Bosnians used it during medieval times.