A biological hypothesis for an ancient human mimic predator.
Posted by MedicalPay9750@reddit | CrazyIdeas | View on Reddit | 28 comments
I have been sitting on this theory for a long time. The whole thing really started when I thought about how we prove history. We confirm historical figures existed through a basic standard like having multiple independent sources and consistent details. Genghis Khan clears that bar with around 10 manuscripts from different cultures. But the biological entity I am talking about has hundreds of independent accounts across every continent plus actual neurological evidence. I know historians and biologists use different standards for proof and you cant just use old myths to declare a species real. But that massive historical convergence is what tells us we need to start looking for a missing biological animal.
Think about the cross cultural evidence for a second. Almost every human civilization described the exact same hunting strategy. The Native American Skinwalker, European Changeling, Slavic Doppelganger and the Japanese Kitsune all use the exact same mechanism. They look almost human but something is slightly off and they get close to you by mimicking social behavior. Some people point out that Europe and Asia traded so they obviously shared myths. That is totally true and a fair objection. But Polynesian and Native American cultures had zero contact. If they were all just making up spooky stories they would be wildly different like their creation myths are. Biologists call it convergent evidence when totally unrelated systems arrive at the exact same specific solution.
Most scientists will argue the uncanny valley is just pathogen avoidance. They think the creepy feeling we get from almost human faces is just our brains telling us to avoid dead bodies or sick people so we dont catch a disease. But if we just needed to avoid sickness why does the amygdala trigger pure terror and dread instead of just disgust. A sick person makes you feel grossed out but a face that is just slightly wrong triggers a literal predator alarm system. Cambridge University actually did brain scans showing the amygdala lights up with intense dread specifically at that almost human boundary. Princeton researchers even tested primates who had never seen a horror movie or heard a human myth. The primates showed the exact same aversion to almost realistic faces. It is sitting in our evolutionary hardware before human culture even existed.
Some people brought up a really good counter argument that maybe this is just human psychopaths. Psychopaths perfectly mimic social behavior while lacking the emotional architecture underneath it, and they exist in every human population. That fits the profile really well. But a biological detector does not evolve without something that originally made it necessary in the wild. The primate studies prove the uncanny valley response existed before complex human societies could produce cultural psychopaths. So an ancient external predator built the detector first, and modern human psychopaths just keep setting it off accidentally.
If we want science to take this seriously we have to make falsifiable predictions based on genetics and fossils. We know from isotopic modeling that early Homo sapiens and Neanderthals were competing for resources. But what if they were both prey for something else. If an ancient predator hunted by mimicking hominids it probably broke off from Homo erectus millions of years ago. It wouldnt even need massive claws because it used psychological camouflage to get close. To prove this we need to look at the fossil record. We should be able to find specific bone trauma on both human and neanderthal skeletons that definetly do not match known animals like cave bears or big cats. I know this sounds like science fiction and we need hard fossil data to make real anthropologists listen. But all the peices are just sitting right there waiting for someone to connect them. We just have to stop treating this like a spooky internet story and start looking for the physical evidence.
Sources I used to build this:
* The original 1970 essay where Masahiro Mori first described the uncanny valley, translated into English by IEEE Spectrum in 2012
* Cambridge University brain scanner study published in Journal of Neuroscience 2019 (Scientists identify possible source of the Uncanny Valley in the brain)
* The Neanderthal genome paper that established the DNA interbreeding figures by Green et al. 2010, published in Science
* Neanderthals versus Modern Humans: Evidence for Resource Competition from Isotopic Modelling (PMC research article)
* The evolutionary species separation hypothesis by Palmer 2019 (The Uncanny Valley)
erraticsporadic@reddit
as a bio student: there are a few strong theories for why we experience uncanny valley. (remember that a scientific theory is something with very strong evidence). 1: humans are heavily pattern seeking, and feel distress when known patterns fail, even more so when they only partially fail - something that looks human but isn't quite right is distressing because we instinctively fear the unknown. 2: it may have evolved to protect us from disease and violence; people who are extremely ill, and who are dead, are unsettling to us because they can pose a significant risk. and 3: reading others is extremely important. we need to be able to read their intentions, and recognize their methods of communication. if someone looks or behaves differently in a way that makes nonverbal communication difficult, that's really unsettling too because we may miss signs of aggression. i don't believe that there is or was a real humanoid threat, but rather that these myths are so similar because we're all the same species, with the same general brain structure, and the same basic instincts. an analogy: one calculator may perform order of operations while another simply goes from left to right, but all calculators agree that 2+2=4.
MedicalPay9750@reddit (OP)
I respectfully feel like you might have skimmed the neurological data in the post. If the uncanny valley evolved just to help humans read 'nonverbal communication' or avoid disease, why do infant monkeys (who have no human social structures)have the exact same hardwiired terror response to uncanny faces? The response is a ancient, biological predator alarm, not a modern human social mechanism.
ursois@reddit
You pretty much shot down your hypothesis already. If there was a near-human appearing predator, we would expect that the uncanny valley developed in humans and hominids as a defense mechanism. If it occurs in monkeys, that implies that the averion is older than the development of hominids, and so some other mechanism must be at work. If there was a predator that could mimic monkeys, apes, and humans all at the same time, and existed for the millions of years that it took humans to develop, we'd have seen some sign of it in the fossil record already.
With all of that, and no evidence found yet of such a predator, your hypothesis is on very shaky ground.
MedicalPay9750@reddit (OP)
I respect that you read the post and I respect your brilliant counterargument, and it would completely sink the theory if we assume the predator created the alarm system from scratch. But what if we look at it through the lens of exaptation?
The primate study suggests the baseline hardware for the uncanny valley evolved in basal monkeys (maybe for avoiding disease or genetic anomalies within their troop). If a hominid offshoot later evolved psychological camouflage to hunt early Homo sapiens, it wouldn't need to build a new alarm system, its mimicry would just aggressively trigger that ancient, pre-existing primate tripwire.
As for the fossil record, a lack of bones doesn't definitively falsify a hominid. We share millions of years of history with chimpanzees, yet we didn't find the first chimp fossils until 2005 (and it was just a few teeth) because jungle environments obliterate bones. A small, specialized 'ghost lineage' of hominid predators could absolutely leave zero phyzical trace.
CalidumCoreius@reddit
Why not just conclude that Neanderthals may have been the mimic at this point? Where is the benefit in Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens Neanderthalensis being targeted by a third group rather than just targeting each other?
Dapper-Ad9787@reddit
Maybe we were the mimic species and Neanderthals the real humans.
D-ouble-D-utch@reddit
Bro...
MedicalPay9750@reddit (OP)
It's a fair question, but Neanderthals don't fit the "mimic" profile for two simple reasons. 1. The timeline doesn't match. Primate studies show monkeys have the exact same "uncanny valley' dread response to fake monkey faces. That means this biological alarm system evolved in primates millians of years before humans or Neanderthals even existed. 2. Neanderthals had their own complex societies, tools, and art. They were parallel competitors fighting for resources, not hidden parasites sneaking into our camps pretending to be us.
Aribelalugosi@reddit
I still think it's just an aversion to other competing hominids and primates
One_Planche_Man@reddit
They did if you go back far enough. Every human group traces back to a common ancestor. Perhaps shared mythology started with them.
Also, we still need fossil evidence of such a creature. And if that creature mimicked humans, that means it must have material culture which can be unearthed across multiple sites around the world.
dirtyLizard@reddit
I think you’re putting too much of an interpretation on the uncanny valley effect.
You said that the fear response vs a disgust response means something. Evolution doesn’t necessarily craft defense mechanisms proportional to the threat they deal with. Even so, I’d argue that a fear response makes sense. Early primates that ran away from bloated corpses would absolutely survive longer than ones that simply avoided them.
Your point about psychopaths doesn’t really fit. They don’t look any different from other people and do not have anything to do with the uncanny valley effect.
The human-looking monster concept is universal because it’s an easily understood metaphor for a common anxiety. Other people are dangerous and we all know that. The human-presenting monster idea is one way to explore that by replacing a human with something whose purpose is to do harm.
Ultimately, I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. People creating stories that play on existing fears and a biological impulse does not mean that the impulse exists to serve the subject of those stories.
MedicalPay9750@reddit (OP)
A fight-or-flight adrenaline response is calorically expensive and evolutionarily reserved for active threats. You don't need a terror/flight response to escape a stationary corpse; basic disgust (which triggers nausea and avoidance) handles stationary pathogens perfectly. The amygdala triggering pure and active dread implies the threat is capable of closing the distance. and corpses can't move.
Secondly, you are still relying on cultural metaphors to explain a biological hardware feature. Infant macaques in the Princeton studies do not have a concept of 'metaphor.' They do not have folklore, and they do not philosophize about the dangers of societal outsiders. Yet, their brains have the exact same hardwired terror response to almost-real faces. It is a biological tripwire, not a literary device. Why didn't you acknowledge this study?
GreatAffablyEvil@reddit
It may be that the predator isn't another species, but simply other humans. It may be that genocide and cannibalism are simply ancestral primate behaviors. In primitive tribes in Borneo and New Guinea humans are literal predators for other humans sometimes and when people meet, if they realize you are not related to them, they will try to kill you on sight. It could be that the uncanny valley is checking for how closely related you are, rather than looking for an entirely new species.
Chimps(about tied with Bonobos for humanity's closest genetic match) also exterminate other troops and cannibalize them.
This would also explain why other primates have a similar fear; this is a behavior common to primates and doesn't require the existence of multiple predator lookalike species to explain how humans, chimps, and monkeys all have the same fear. It is only less common in most of the world now due to the development of culture and civilization.
The uncanny valley would be a test of "are you a close enough relative?" rather than "are you a vampire from Blindsight?"
Big_Dingus1@reddit
Convergent ~evidence~ evolution is when different species evolve similar traits independently. This would imply multiple different mimic species, not one, which is much less likely.
Gengis Khan is verifiable because he is referred to very explicitly by multiple independent sources. The mimic concept is conceptually similar, but is highly variable in actual physical descriptions across cultures. This implies that the concept is very real, but not the actual organism.
Jolly-Rip5973@reddit
Humans don't mimic predators.
We are predators, humans after to eat.
Why you think they called early people "hunter gatherers"?
drlsoccer08@reddit
This wasn’t nearly as intelligent or coherent as I think you thought it was.
Something scary that looks like a person but isn’t, is a part of many cultures because it’s just an obvious monster to come up with. We have natural anxiety and distrust towards others, and that expresses itself when we make up monsters.
Immediate-Way-4065@reddit
I thought this was called “crazy ideas” not “well thought out and reasonable ideas”
MedicalPay9750@reddit (OP)
The social anxiety theory doesn't hold up. Infant monkeys have zero concept of human culture, mythology, or 'distrusting others', yet brain scans show they have the exact same scary reaction to almost-real faces. It's hardwired brain biology, not just people making up stories.
XXLPenisOwner1443@reddit
How does this better explain the "uncanny valley" than corpses do?
VickyHearts@reddit
This is either a groundbreaking discovery or the start of a very interesting sci-fi novel
fionn52@reddit
Peter Watts “Blindsight”
3MetricTonsOfSass@reddit
Is it good?
KaiBishop@reddit
Also the two alien races from The Sparrow
gc3@reddit
I'm with the psychopath theory. The creature would have trouble mating unless it breeds with humans. Where would it find mates?
calimehtar@reddit
This is a good premise for a horror fantasy
Cryzgnik@reddit
How can we falsify a prediction that "homo sapiens and Neanderthals were prey for something else"? What would falsify that?
MedicalPay9750@reddit (OP)
Two ways. First, fossils: If all predation marks on early human and Neanderthal bones can be mathematically mapped 100% to known animals (bears, big cats) or human weapons, the "unknown shared predator" theory is falsified. Second genetics: If the 'uncanny valley' dread response in the amygdala is found in distant mammals that never interacted with hominids it proves the response is just basic disease-avoidance, which falsifies the mimic-predator theory.
Shit_On_Wheels@reddit
There it goes, what if... Followed by some schizo conclusions. Why is it always like that.