“Maintain VFR on course” after given altitude restriction?
Posted by inkiygao@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 22 comments
I was doing a solo XC and departed a Delta with a TRSA. I was told to maintain VFR at or below 2500 by Tower while departing. I was handed off and grabbed flight following while at 2500 and was told to maintain VFR on course. Does that mean altitude is now at my discretion or do I still need to remain at or below 2500? I advised approach when I climbed but wanted to see what’s right. Thanks!
didsomebodysaywander@reddit
OP, when you check in with the departure controller you can always mention the altitude restriction. "Departure, Cessna 12345, heading XYZ, altitude restriction 2500" which will give them a chance to let you know what they want.
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
"Maintain VFR on course. Would you like me to continue to maintain below 2500?"
Fizzo21@reddit
When in doubt, just ask them. “Do you still need at or bellow 2,500?”
randombrain@reddit
This goes for basically any question. Just ask us.
Depending on the situation the controller may have meant for the altitude restriction to be cancelled or they may have still needed it.
"Maintain VFR on course" isn't correct phraseology in the first place, so nobody can fault you for being confused by it.
pi_stuff@reddit
On a related note, what is the required readback when ATC says “altitude restriction canceled”? Is “roger” sufficient, or should you say, “altitude restriction canceled”?
randombrain@reddit
"Roger" is perfectly sufficient there.
Zooming way out, technically the only instruction that we 1000% absolutely must ensure is read back verbatim is a "hold short." Everything else, up to and including "maintain visual separation from the traffic," is technically satisfied with a "wilco."
Of course in reality both operators and controllers will enforce a readback of, at a minimum, "the numbers." To varying degrees.
"Altitude restriction canceled" is not an instruction at all—it's informational. "Roger" is a fine response.
itsinthedata@reddit
I am a controller who used to work in a TRSA. The general intent of that controller was probably altitude your discretion proceed on course. However he/she did not say that and you should verify if altitude is your discretion.
On the controller side the better/clearer way for this interaction (assuming they wanted altitude your discretion) would have been “altitude your discretion proceed on course”
When in doubt, just ask!
zone_of-danger@reddit
New instruction canceled out altitude restriction, but just ask. I’m someone who use to struggle with comms and even as an airline pilot I still kind of do, but I just got in the habit of asking for clarification or to repeat whatever they say.
Don’t be intimidated. They can’t violate you for asking for clarification.
x4457@reddit
It most definitely did not.
CropdustingOMdesk@reddit
I would argue that maintain VFR does not cancel altitude instruction
I’ve worked in ATC facilities which thought that they did and would get annoyed with pilots. ATC is wrong in assuming so but being right in this instance doesn’t make the flight any easier. Call the facility directly and ask on the phone
coma24@reddit
"resume appropriate VFR altitudes" is the correct ATC phraseology to lift a VFR altitude restriction. I am not 100% sure what the intention was "maintain VFR on course," was supposed to imply from the new controller given that you did NOT have a heading restriction to begin with. So, "maintain VFR" is not new...and "on course" was also not new. As a result, I would have asked if the 2500 restriction still applied (it very likely did not).
"On course" is often used as a proxy for 'resume own navigation' to cancel hard headings.
randombrain@reddit
"Altitude your discretion" is fewer syllables than "resume appropriate VFR altitudes," so you might hear that more often.
Agreed that "maintain VFR" is not approval to change from a previously-assigned altitude.
coma24@reddit
concur on all fronts, but I wanted to get the phraseology out there because I'm still yet to hear it out there in the wild, lol. "Altitude your discretion" does get the job done as a plain English instruction, but it's one of those normalization of deviation cases.
ThatRunwayBehindUs@reddit
This is a little bit of an airspace thing - but were you clear of the Delta? And when you say handed off.. Did tower explicitly send you to departure, or were you just clear of the airspace and you switched to departure yourself to pick up FF?
My expectation is that you were clear of towers airspace, and free to climb to your crushing altitude because you had met the at and below 2500 while departing.
I probably would have started climbing at that point, and then checked in with departure on your way to your cruising altitude. Departure likely meant to cancel your altitude restriction with his phraseology.
But... its not proper phraseology and I cant be sure of that, so I would just ask him if he needed the altitude or not, if I was in your shoes.
randombrain@reddit
OP said they were flying in a TRSA so I would imagine an actual frequency change instruction happened. I agree it isn't clear though, especially because OP says that they then "grabbed flight following* which is something I didn't notice the first time around.
/u/inkiygao, FYI for you here: ALWAYS try to set up flight following while you're on the ground going 0KT instead of waiting until you're talking to the radar controller. It makes things much smoother for us.
Not all Class D towers have the ability to set up a flight following squawk code for you, but a lot will. If they're connected with a TRSA then they definitely will. Same if they're a Class C or Class B.
And just a general knowledge FYI for you and anybody else reading this: TRSA approach controls use the exact same radar hardware as Class C and Class B approach controls, and there are about four times as many Class D approach controls without TRSA airspace as there are Class D approach controls with a TRSA.
Phaas777A@reddit
I will gladly take ATC, annoyed, answering a question about something they think I should already know than have to copy a number.
“Approach, Nxxxx, maintain VFR on course. Do you still want me at or above 2500?”
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
Maintain VFR means maintain own separation, IMPLIES altitude your discretion / squawk 1200 were not bothering with you anymore. This is explicit if they say squawk 1200, see ya.
flyingron@reddit
Horsepucky. It certainly doesn't mean squawk 1200. In fact, that would be very bad in some airspace. Maintain VFR means what it says "stay out of the clouds." There's nothing IMPLIED about it.
randombrain@reddit
This. And a lot of controllers say "maintain VFR" as a fuzzy-blanket-CYA thing waaaaaay more often than is really necessary.
The only times we actually have to say "maintain VFR" are: 1) if you're requesting an IFR clearance but we are deliberately not issuing it because you're below the MVA and unable to accept your own terrain/altitude separation, or 2) if you're VFR looking for a practice instrument approach.
I also do say "maintain VFR at-or-above XXX" or whatever... I know I don't have to but I want to make it clear.
"Maintain VFR on course" is not necessary phraseology in the slightest.
flyingron@reddit
"Maintain VFR" and "Proceed on Course" do not cancel altitude restrictions. I'd ask.
jckwlzn@reddit
Just ask em. Better safe than sorry
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I was doing a solo XC and departed a Delta with a TRSA. I was told to maintain VFR at or below 2500 by Tower while departing. I was handed off and grabbed flight following while at 2500 and was told to maintain VFR on course. Does that mean altitude is now at my discretion or do I still need to remain at or below 2500? I advised approach when I climbed but wanted to see what’s right. Thanks!
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