Anyone else encountering aggressive down leveling in offers these days?
Posted by Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 131 comments
12 YOE total. Currently 2 years as head of engineering at a 12 person startup. Before this, 4 years at Meta, the latter half as E5 / senior.
I've interviewed for a bunch of companies from 100 billion market cap, to series C startup.
Mostly rejections from various stages, but for the three offers I got, they wanted to place me at the "high end of senior".
I had to stop my eyeballs from popping out internally. Senior at Meta from years ago, going to senior at a series C startup with 100 engineers, who are migrating their main app from AWS Lambda to containers?
Am I just presenting myself terribly, or are most companies trying to do this, given the deluge of good candidates who are job hunting right now?
bloomsday289@reddit
Yeah. I have a job, I've just been trying to improve my situation. I had to put the search on pause because of this exact thing.
It's a negotiation tactic. I've gotten offers that are constantly at the low (unexceptable end) of the posted range because they "place me at the high end of senior", or because "you did great, but you missed a few things during the technical". The fuck I did. Hire someone else if you don't think Im competent.
It's just a tactic to post a range that looks attractive on the high end when they never had any intention of paying for the talent the high end attracts. They want someone talented for the low end price and are using this shit as justification for the low ball offer. They just want to find someone desperate enough to accept.
RandomPantsAppear@reddit
I posted elsewhere about this, but I used that against them.
When discussing salary expectations all I generally give is the range of salaries that I’m presently in round 2+ interviews for.
No one wants to come in at the bottom number when they know there’s competition.
sfscsdsf@reddit
these days they would have hundreds of laid off meta seniors lining up
Exowienqt@reddit
Then hire THEM, and not shoot for a principal and low-ball that candidate.
Smallpaul@reddit
Why does it bother you that they gave him an offer that he can respond to?
NullPulsar@reddit
You don’t think it’s a bit messed up to waste OP’s time when he clearly is not at that level (or salary more importantly)?
ThePsychicCEO@reddit
OP is getting a market signal. He might not like it (and you might not like it) but salary is a market-based thing. And there are some who feel developer salaries should drop because there's an over supply of candidates.
Software development has been a charmed profession for decades. That may not continue.
Exowienqt@reddit
Imagine you are selling a Ferrari. Someone comes along, inspects the car, takes it to the mechanic, and then comes back, and gives you 60% of the market value. And when you ask wtf, they tell you not to be surprised because there are a lot of Toyota Corollas on the market right now.
ThePsychicCEO@reddit
I think you misunderstand "Market Value". It's not some magic figure everyone has to obey. It's formed from lots and lots of individual transactions, and this is one.
Also - have you seen fuel prices? I'd offload your gas-guzzling Ferrari as soon as possible... 😄
Exowienqt@reddit
Yeah, but Id I am selling a Ferrari I am not selling a Toyota. If someone is inspecting good category A, and haggles comparing to category B, then that's bad faith. I hate that.
Inevitable_Window308@reddit
Good B is a substitute for Good A
Thats not bad faith, thats just standard market dynamics
Crafty_Independence@reddit
Lol 12 yoe with half of that being Meta and startup isn't anywhere close to being Ferrari these days
Imoa@reddit
Bro price is based on demand.
If they make an offer you don’t like, you don’t accept it and you go take a better offer. If all you get are offers you don’t like, you either wait until the market shifts in your favor, or you accept that those offers are what you get.
It doesn’t matter what you think your Ferrari is worth if no one will buy it from you at your price.
Exowienqt@reddit
The thing is, human attention is not infinite. If someone wastes my time, they shouldn't expect me to not be irritated, that's all.
Motor_Fudge8728@reddit
That’s why you ask the comp range for the role before going through the whole thing.
Smallpaul@reddit
OP has “mostly got rejections” or “offers at the high end of senior.” So I think the market is telling them that “high end of senior” is a reasonable offer. If they had three staff offers in hand then that would be a different conversation.
Exowienqt@reddit
Imagine you are selling a Ferrari. Someone comes along, inspects the car, takes it to the mechanic, and then comes back, and gives you 60% of the market value. And when you ask wtf, they tell you not to be surprised because there are a lot of Toyota Corollas on the market right now.
Inevitable_Window308@reddit
Uhh I love your analogy because not only is it perfectly correct, it directly describes the issue. The "market value" is the most you can get a person to pay for the ferarri (the programmer) but it will take a while to find someone willing to pay that. The car (programmer) isn't worth it's "market value", its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it and because of the high number of cars on the market people have choices and do not need to pay for a ferarri
Empanatacion@reddit
The more accurate metaphor is, "I've got five other Ferraris to look at today. If you don't want to take 60%, I understand."
ElectableEmu@reddit
But an employee is not a Veblen good, at least it won't be in a reasonable work environment. The metaphor works if you assume that people will higher ex-faang people at higher salaries, simply for the coolness points of saying you have them on staff.
Which, admittedly, has been the case before, but with so many faang layoffs, I suspect the lustre has worn off.
Alleyria@reddit
If the business is interested in the transportation qualities of the vehicle, but not the speed or luxury, then the Ferrari and Toyota's are competing on their shared attributes, not what sets them apart.
NullPulsar@reddit
Yeah okay, that’s fair
sneaky-pizza@reddit
That’s life bro
Exowienqt@reddit
Imagine you are selling a Ferrari. Someone comes along, inspects the car, takes it to the mechanic, and then comes back, and gives you 60% of the market value. And when you ask wtf, they tell you not to be surprised because there are a lot of Toyota Corollas on the market right now.
DogmaSychroniser@reddit
Unfortunately the Ferrari and the Corolla are quantified. When you're hiring a dev, you can't look under the hood! He might say he's 2000 hp but actually he's only 200!
_itshabib@reddit
Yoe does not equate to title
LiquidAngel12@reddit
Also title and salary aren't even necessarily equitable. There is correlation between the two and a higher title will generally mean a higher salary, but as someone who has taken a title demotion for a pay raise... they certainly aren't directly equal.
Beneficial_Map6129@reddit
I mean OP is applying…
SeriousBoard7587@reddit
precisely this. There are so many unemployed swe, that they can easily find someone competed at a 10-20% paycheck discount
UndercoverGourmand@reddit
have you considered that your 2 years of Sr at Meta and 2 years as "head of engineering at a 12 person startup" truly is high senior? The head of engineering position can often be pretty ambiguous and sounds like title inflation. Obviously the current market doesn't help either.
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
I would be happy to go back to senior at Meta or Google. But not at smaller companies.
There is a real difference in the skill level required for the same level across different companies.
Yes the head of engineering role can seem very ambiguous, I guess it's my responsibility to communicate why it's impressive and not just building another small web app.
Thank you for your perspective.
_itshabib@reddit
So it's hard to say with ur post. Experience can often not really equate to much and same with FAANG. Ur development skills and such could be a high end senior. In the post u didn't really describe how u could be higher than that. Being a manager now at a startup doesn't really say anything IMO. If anything it means u haven't been developing in some time and maybe a senior role makes sense. Getting hired as l6/l7 when that's not on ur resume is practically impossible and it makes a lot of sense. People want staff level engineers for their own stack u know. Being a staff one place doesn't mean u know anything on that kind of level at a new spot. People probably try to derisk the higher and actually see if u grow into the staff role. It's just a big bet I think to give someone that L6/L7 title off the bar, gotta be pretty exceptional IMO
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
Good perspective, thanks.
lphomiej@reddit
I hired three engineers last year, and fully remote roles had a thousand applicants overnight. I could theoretically choose any level I wanted for any role. Not to say someone would necessarily take an offer at a lower role/budget, but if you wanted to stretch for some reason, the options are out there. For hybrid (Seattle area), there were a lot less applicants, but still hundreds to go through.
brikky@reddit
E5 to head of eng at a company smaller than many teams these days I would agree is the high end of senior, maybe staff.
Staff engineers at Meta are expected to have influence over 30-50 folks. Not directly dictating their work or anything, but impacting it. Your last two years of experience are less than half that size.
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
I'm not applying for staff at Meta though.
I'm applying for staff at series C - 100 billion cap companies.
There's a difference in expectations for same title across different companies. That's the main point I'm trying to make.
ResidentSpirit4220@reddit
You’re trying to make it sound like a company’s valued at 100B is somehow small.
unflippedbit@reddit
That’s not at all what he’s saying. Just that Meta is 20x as big on a valuation basis. And I sort of get the point, I would also expect a 100b co to have lower expectations than Meta unless the pay exceeded Meta. You wouldn’t?
brikky@reddit
Expectations are only loosely correlated to job titles. Netflix only has a single title for all their SWEs until recently, they still had like 7 levels of engineers though.
Valuation is barely correlated to size.
brikky@reddit
There is, but you're missing my point.
Meta tends to inflate titles a bit. When I say I agree it's senior I don't mean at Meta - I mean in industry. A lot of places don't even have a title past senior.
chickadee_guy@reddit
Correct, theres usually much less skill required to be that level at meta for a multitude of reasons. The army of technical support staff and plethora of helper tools that hold your hand have made most ex Meta folks completely useless outside of that environment, imo.
And thats not to mention egos, the company reputation is terrible, they have no interesting products, and layoffs galore.
jackassery@reddit
Great point. Also note OP said "12 person startup", interpreting that literally would suggest the eng team was even smaller.
fsk@reddit
Everyone is having layoffs and the job market is flooded. The natural reaction is for employers to hire new employees at a discount, while firing their now-overpaid employees who were hired when the job market was better.
tango650@reddit
Why were they migrating lambda to containers ?
lokidev@reddit
Lambdas might kill your processes of after 15min, coldbootup time (unless your warming them constantly) and much more.
Depends on what you're doing if lambdas are the right tool.
tango650@reddit
Right, so normally you would know this before you bUilt your lambdas right. So I understand you would maybe add on something that handles long lived problems but why immediately migrate the old stuff.
fromanator@reddit
Lambdas were very hyped years ago. It could be that they built it because of the hype even though it was a terrible solution to their problem.
tango650@reddit
They're pretty dope really, on account of that, with very few exceptions, most applications do not have even demand throughout time and lambdas solve that very common problem out of the box.
I don't see any issue with them except perhaps the hyperscaler dependency.
Everything else is quite solvable.
Smok3dSalmon@reddit
To be able to leave aws
tango650@reddit
A bit of a non answer. Why why why. Just for the hate of the brand ? Or what strategic shift lead to it is what in curious about
Smok3dSalmon@reddit
SaaS is expensive when it includes platform and infra. If you can containerize everything and throw it on a dedicated server with kubernetes you can reduce cost at the expensive of now needing new skills on the team.
tango650@reddit
Yes but then why did you do serverless in the first place.
Kubernetes aiint gonna solve for optimal peak load capacity.
Smok3dSalmon@reddit
Because over optimization is the death of progress when you’re creating a new product. Companies use AWS because they don’t want to maintain software services and infra. Lambda lets you focus on features
tango650@reddit
Sure but normally you dont think like so:
I want a SaaS -> what's the easiest hosting -> oh of course let's do lambda
Normally by default you host some monolith on some server 24/7 it costs 20 quid a month and you're done.
Lambdas show up when you're expecting very uneven demand and want peak scaling without paying for a lot iron 24/7. So I assume people who have them have this problem.
Therefore I don't understand how can they decide that k8s is suddenly a great architecture for such products.
ninetofivedev@reddit
Not OP, but there is a ton of limitations around using lambda, so one might assume that. There is also a lot of operational complexity compared to just building say a go backend web api. It also has much higher costs as you scale.
Could be a hundred valid reasons.
tango650@reddit
Most of those i can imagine happening under the right circumstances but:
What's the complexity balance you mention ?
ninetofivedev@reddit
I’ve had to do this multiple times in my career. Company built a PoC on lambda and after a year, bunch of shit is constantly falling down, performance sucks, dev experience is terrible.
No spreadsheet required. Just need to fire the guy into the sun who “architected” this and do it right.
I can stand up a k8s cluster from scratch in an hour with completely observability and monitoring, vpc, security groups, irsa, iam, karpenter auto scaling an I can build a go web backend just as fast as I can write lambda.
The idea that lambda is somehow ultra fast compared to just doing it right is only true if you don’t know how to do it right.
tango650@reddit
Ok i hear you but in all honesty it's a very opinionated rant the kinds you will have plenty of on both sides.
What gave you away ? K8s cluster in 1hour ... You forgot to mention installing the scalable server rack all at once as well.
Im really after some meritorious arguments here not the "he said she said" kind you know.
ninetofivedev@reddit
It’s just a common theme. Someone read a medium article about how to use serverless for your web backend.
It’s like giving an ape a hammer. They know it’s a tool. They’ll find out all sorts of ways to use it. But they’re just not smart enough to know right tool for the right job.
epoci@reddit
He migh have meant ecs containers too?
Appropriate-Bet3576@reddit
High senior is the sweet spot. If you get too high on IC pay scale, you're on the chopping block.
Ph4ntorn@reddit
I’ve worked for a couple of small companies where we had a really hard time offering anyone a job above senior level. There were a few reasons for this:
We had a really hard time evaluating the skills that would make someone successful at the staff+ level. We were looking for something like “senior level skills plus some undefined wow factor.
People at the company who were successful in staff+ roles all leaned on lots of institutional knowledge that were going to a new person a long time to build because nothing was documented. So, realistically, even someone with the right aptitude was going to take a long time to operate at that level.
What we needed at the staff+ level was different than what a bigger company would need. We had fewer really tough technical problems. But, we had plenty of challenges of our own making and needed someone who was both technically strong and able to navigate our poorly-defined political structure.
As a result, there were a few times where we didn’t think we could offer people roles above senior, even though they’d clearly want higher level roles. So, we either rejected them or made offers that they’d probably turn down. I’m sure we missed out on some good people, but I think we also avoided hiring people that wouldn’t have worked.
Izacus@reddit
A "staff" position in a small company is an oxymoron anyway - staff responsibilities require working across teams which requires a certain company size.
Why would a < 20 people company pay a huge amount of an engineering position they have no use for?
cantthinkofaname1029@reddit
Depending on what the "staff" part means, it could be useful in small orgs with non technical management where they need someone to effectively run software efforts, define technical processes, etc. Somewhat closer to an EM than staff, but they might elect to call it a staff position if they dont want to do the hiring and firing
Ph4ntorn@reddit
I’m talking about 100-500 person companies, places with about 6-20 product and engineering teams. These were places that did need some engineers who could identify and drive cross team efforts. Again, not quite in the same way you’d need at a much larger company, but definitely at least a step beyond someone who’s focus was on a single team or on a set of well defined problems.
At a <20 person company, I think you are right that they don’t need what I would call a staff engineer because there’s no cross team work to be done. You might still want someone who does more than the average senior because there’s more foundational work to be done and more breadth of skill and flexibility matters. But, that’s not really a staff-level job.
smdaegan@reddit
Because you sometimes need an engineer that's not a task monkey at small companies, and when you post senior roles you get people with 2 years of experience applying.
It's not a given that someone can actually coordinate and plan systems just because they have a senior title, and in most tech markets there's a somewhat negligible cost difference between a high senior and a staff engineer if you need those skills and a candidate can plausibly do the role.
Izacus@reddit
That's like asking for nobel prize winner because people lie to you about their ability in physics 😃
CombinationNearby308@reddit
This is a refreshingnly honest take of what I am witnessing at a mid size org. Staff+ in my org are more of social and political advocates than technical. They evangelize what the management wants to see and show others than enabling team independence and technical rigor - nothing wrong with amplifying management's message, but they have no incentive to improve technical foundations.
bernaldsandump@reddit
Sounds like yall are playing games tbh
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
Interesting, thanks for sharing
zazzersmel@reddit
I’m in da/de space. Recruiter hit me up for a da job at cap one. They wanted 5 years of Python/sql experience. Full time, hybrid. Pay: 70k. I made that much working for a public university in 2019 in a low cost of living city.
ShockEvening7501@reddit
Staff and senior do tend to have different job responsibilities. Staff is not about years of experience and it's not just "senior solving more complicated problems". I don't see any mention of staff roles in your title and head of engineering at a 12 person startup doesn't necessarily translate to staff. So why you do you think you should be getting the staff positions?
Pancakefriday@reddit
For the small startups, could just be the way they name roles. At the first startup I was at there was only Software Engineer and Senior for the longest time. We didn’t have junior roles or anything higher than senior
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
Interesting thought. The ones I applied for had staff roles.
Infamous_Ruin6848@reddit
Name doesn't matter much.
What matters is money and where you are in the organization (if small/startup/scaleup) or in the group(if corpo).
If any, getting a lower name gives space for future promotions.
FoolHooligan@reddit
I was gonna say who cares about the title? It's all about the comp! Are they downgrading the OP in terms of $$$?
Infamous_Ruin6848@reddit
For me position and impact in the company also matters but indeed, if the money is good and on the right scale in the company, impact should mirror it. A staff engineer is a very different beast than an middle engineer.
Beneficial_Map6129@reddit
Startups aren’t exactly swimming in cash right now
(Except OpenAI)
ninetofivedev@reddit
Then you should know how it works? Typically I have to open up a job rec for my org. It gets a job title that is consistent across the organization and placed in a band.
If a candidate asks for more money than the high end of the band or if the candidate job title aligns with the high end of that band, I have to do a bunch of paperwork to basically get it signed off on from head of people.
By the way: head of engineering at a 12 person startup might as well be a team lead. Sure, you’re wearing more hats, because startup, but you’re also not competing against 100 other VPs within the organization for the CTO role.
sneaky-pizza@reddit
It’s pretty wild this startup even deals in this title nonsense
Livid_Conversation59@reddit
i've been in similar situations where companies would lowball me on salary, but it's rare that they'd offer an entire senior level team at that rate. what's weird here is that OP got three staff offers, so i'm assuming the startups had a good chunk of change to throw around.
FastHotEmu@reddit
Not every company wants ex-hyperscalers nor value Meta's engineering or business practices.
General-Jaguar-8164@reddit
Why?
ThePsychicCEO@reddit
I run a small company and we've struggled with hires who come from large corporate. For a whole host of mostly cultural reasons. For example, we don't write reports or hold regular meetings - we discuss something, and then do something. High bandwidth communication in a small, tight team. No need for a lot of the ceremony that is needed in larger companies, and some people consider the mark of being "professional".
Not to dunk on large companies - they need that coordination work and can afford to pay for it. Small teams don't need it and can't afford it!
scragz@reddit
you can absolutely dunk on large companies..
parames0@reddit
I’ve noticed extra capital also means they tend to be more platform centric. Latency issues from unoptimized code? No prob, provision more hardware and get prod working asap. They usually reject refactor propositions even with the assurance that it can be fairly quick in favor of this. Nothing wrong since that’s their business model and no one’s in the business of beautiful code. Only thing is those technical skills don’t convert well to small places
chickadee_guy@reddit
exMeta engineers typically cannot function without an army of technical staff doing various helper functions for them. They cant own a solution end to end IME and have huge egos to boot, and dont deal well with perceived "inefficiency".
dudaspl@reddit
Big corps have bunch of specialists, startups/smaller companies need generalists that can do a lot of broad tasks outside of their main speciality
endurbro420@reddit
Not every company wants to be like meta? Same goes for amazon, I actively avoid working places that hire a bunch of ex amazon people. It is just a terrible culture.
chickadee_guy@reddit
Anyone I talk to from Meta gets extreme scrutiny because IME ex Meta people have 0 ability to deliver end to end and are useless without the plethora of internal tools holding their hand that FAANG have. Also huge complainers and trend surfers, no ability to put their heads down and solve problems
kylife@reddit
I switched jobs in 2025 and got down leveled but a lateral pay band and got fired 6 months ish after. It was insane. I also have senior level responsibility despite not getting the title and I confirmed with other engineers that were my level.
ITContractorsUnion@reddit
"aggressive down leveling" You mean paying you shit?
jackassery@reddit
Current eng manager here. I'd be pretty hesitant to consider you for a staff+ role with that background, unless there were something truly remarkable about the startup and the team you were leading, especially given I'm guessing the startup failed and that's why you're on the market.
While I'm sure you learned a lot during those two years, as head of engineering you also missed out on having the kind of leadership mentoring people usually get in the first few years of leading teams of a similar size at larger companies.
"High end of senior" and ensuring you have opportunities to demonstrate leadership and grow sounds like a reasonable fit to me.
Distinct_Goose_3561@reddit
I’d agree with this, especially given the description of work as especially difficult. There are almost certainly edges there, but it’s pretty straight forward work nowadays.
DoobMckenzie@reddit
No one wants your overpaid big tech ass
The_Startup_CTO@reddit
Senior at Meta is not the same as Senior at a startup. You've learnt lots of skills at Meta that you won't need at a smaller startup, and you will not have lots of skills that are required at a smaller company. That being said, the market currently is not as employee-friendly as it was 6 years ago, so I would assume that you might not even get the same salary you got when you left Meta, should you decide to return there.
hello2u3@reddit
Sounds like you were a senior and title inflation at a failed start up
sigmapro@reddit
From what I see, E5 at Meta especially from internal promo is not hard at all. There are many E5s with less than 5 YOE. And I’ve heard from recruiters that they don’t consider Meta E5 to hold the same weight as some of the other FAANGs. This has been my personal experience. YMMV
potatolicious@reddit
Meta's promo/leveling practices are IMO weak in the FAANG realm. I've worked at 4 separate FAANGs (including Meta) and far and away I felt the most egregious amount of over-leveling there. I met numerous E6s there that frankly I would hesitate to level at L5 elsewhere. I met a couple E6s that made me wonder how they made it out of E4 at all. Extends into the upper levels too - I met a few E7s there that would generously be L6s at a place like Google.
Having seen it from the inside and also seen lots of Meta candidates apply for roles since... I'd go as far as to say that knowing the leveling of a candidate at Meta provides no signal as to proper leveling in your company.
retrofibrillator@reddit
Internally made E5 at Meta is “we like that guy and we want to keep him”. E3 and E4 have limited time to secure promotion to higher levels or they get terminated. E5 is the first terminal level where you are not sitting on ticking time bomb.
Someone hired into E4 role and promoted into E5 might still be decent. People who join meta out of school as E3 and ride it out into E5 in 5 years are typically abysmal, because they’ve never seen anything different and never done anything different than Meta.
eronth@reddit
I've worked at mostly smaller companies, and in a lot of them Senior Engineer is functionally the highest engineering role they have. "High end of senior" would be the highest possible at a lot of the companies I've worked. Idk what else you're expecting them to offer you.
tizzyfango@reddit
I think the market is correcting itself naturally with the supply and demand. I also think AI has closed the gulf between what it means to be a Staff Engineer and what it means to be a Senior Engineer. The gulf between the salaries is massive, and the technical depth is easily patched up with a few more prompts from the senior. Staff may have a head start in solving, but the senior will get there with a few more prompts- it's certainly not worth a 50-60k gap in salary.
So I think companies are aware of this.
In short, seniors are cheaper and can theoretically perform just as well as staffs in the world of AI.
Whether it's true or not is irrelevant, but the perception and the theory is there to be tested.
corny_horse@reddit
Yes. I just went from principal engineer to EM. I'm fine with it; I like my new job.
gdinProgramator@reddit
Many factors in play.
You might not be the hot shit you think you are.
They might be lowballing you because, as you said yourself, migrating a lambda app to a container is not the hot shit.
Coming from META, where you had a process for where you put your coffee mug relative to your laptop, companies generally do knock people down for starters then pick them back up after a time. FAANG also does this.
retrofibrillator@reddit
You’re not being downleveled. You have two years of actual senior experience from Meta. You need more senior experience.
Your 12-person startup experience only matters when said startup sells for millions and hires hundreds. Until then, it will be worth less than if you stayed in Meta for two more years of IC5.
Your CV says exactly what you’re hearing back from them, “high end of senior”. There’s no track record there to suggest you’re a safe hire straight into a staff position for anyone except maybe a company that is already familiar with your startup work that wants you to build exactly the same thing for them.
new2bay@reddit
I’m having a hard time encountering an offer, period.
scruffalubadubdub@reddit
I think maybe you’re expecting your 2 years of senior at Meta to do too much work. Being head of eng at a 12 person start up is essentially being a tech lead, which is usually high end of senior. And I’d honestly hold the experience from those 2 years at the startup higher than senior at FAANG where usually the senior role can be achieved simply by tenure vs purely on merit. So what I really see is 4 years as senior eng mostly, with technical leadership experience.
I’m at 11 YOE total with 7yr of those being senior/lead/principal from small 12 person startups to bonafide unicorns, where my team almost always had an outsized impact on the company’s revenue relative to headcount. But I don’t EXPECT to get slotted into a staff or principal role at a different company, especially not a big company, even tho I know I could be and/or applied to be.
The needs a company has for a staff engineer at a scrappy start up is gonna be wildly different from at a FAANG. As senior leadership at a startup, I think you’d be hard pressed to hire out the role of staff+ vs promoting from within, as much of the needs a startup would have for a staff+ would involve a crosscutting understanding of the business and problem space, which often comes from tribal knowledge and experience, not something you can just expect an average ex-FAANG staff engineer to have, who is used to operating in a very different culture, dealing with very different challenges, and used to very different ways of measuring value/impact. Even if a company has an open role for staff, they’re almost certainly looking for someone who is truly out of distribution or is a highly regarded referral, or is at least solidly experienced at that level in the way the company expects it.
If you’re able to get high end of senior at a new company, I think that’s great and fair! Take the offer with whatever company seemed like the best fit with a good manager, and make your career goals clear and heard, and I’m sure you’ll get promoted or at least get appropriate raises if you make sure you can objectively prove your impact is worth it. I’d say focus less on the title, more on the role specifics and opportunity for growth and impact in whatever vector is most fulfilling to you.
And let’s be real, pay is all that really matters when it comes to the leveling convo. I don’t know anyone who takes senior vs staff vs principal seriously anymore really. Title inflation has made titles so fake in our industry.
tiajuanat@reddit
Two things you need to keep in mind:
Firstly, interviewers are looking for fill a given role. They have a set of questions, of expectations, and if you exceed those, welp you'll get the offer and nothing more. You can't possibly expect to become a Principal Engineer or even a Tech Lead if you're interviewing for normal-ass IC positions. You need to put on your LinkedIn, selectively apply, and be firm with recruiters that you're looking for these higher roles. Big caveat: these roles are harder to get! I don't think it's realistic to become a Head for anything beyond a startup given your experience, and I'd recommend you aim for Team Lead or Tech Lead within larger organizations. If you've never run an org of 7 people, you definitely shouldn't run one with 70.
Secondly, I think don't think it's unrealistic to be 12 YOE and still be a senior. I know plenty of folks who have been working that long and they're seniors too. IME, it's around 15 years that you start seeing E6/Senior 2/Staff engineers. Levels require exponentially more knowledge and sway within the company, and therefore follow a log trend.
Computer991@reddit
As someone who has ran teams of 40+ people I’ve had discussions with colleagues who lead at other start ups about this and I wouldn’t hire from FAANG so it’s not the career booster most people think especially in the environment we’re in today you want a different kind of engineer at the helm
Izacus@reddit
As a staff engineer you'd have to be working with teams that have sizes of 30+ and where you'd be leading and influencing their technical direction, solving problems that will bring at least 2x your salary in revenue.
So my question to you is:
The fact that you don't seem to understand these factors would give me a lot of pause at hiring you as a staff - that level requires understanding of what the business does and where money comes from. Yes, even at FAANG.
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
Thank you for your perspective. I think yours is a common one and I'm beginning to learn more from my experience.
I think I may have experienced different interpretations of "staff" (like E6 at Meta) and at my current company where the CTO values IC work above all.
At Meta, many staff just did IC work on their teams. Some teams were as small as 5 people - they were staff not because they influenced 30+ people but because they were deep experts in what they did (this was not uncommon either).
And yes, I am applying to companies that are listing staff eng roles.
Canadianingermany@reddit
You're in a heavily oversupplied market.
If you don't want the job then turn it down.
Sorry, but senior at Meta doesn't mean shit these days.
Can mean anything between useless and super hero.
Did you exit?
Was the startup successful?
There are thousands of senior meta people in the market.
Leading dev in a 12 man startup is not special.
Sorry OP.
Soggy_Grapefruit9418@reddit
I honestly think a lot of companies are leveling defensively right now. The market is flooded with strong candidates, so companies can afford to ask for staff-level impact while offering “high-end senior” titles and compensation. Also, titles don’t transfer cleanly between companies anymore — a Meta E5 can absolutely end up mapped differently at a smaller org depending on scope expectations.
perforatedcode@reddit
Normal for the last 5 years. Also recruiters are incredibly disorganized and the turnover is very high.
Been in contact with a company for about a year. Spoken with 3+ recruiters who have communicated completely different signals. Originally was in loop for senior (down level), lacked signals for humility. Was contacted by recruiter who said I lacked tech signals. Finally, new recruiter said no staff openings.
Fuck ROBLOX.
i_am_exception@reddit
I don’t know about your situation but I have been interviewing some pretty senior people with some big titles. One of them had an 8 page resume and apparently worked at Amazon as well. I gave all of them a pretty simple problem for system design. Didn’t ask them to spit out the exact tech I had in mind, didn’t ask them some weird convoluted questions either. All I wanted was for them to do the bare minimum that qualifies you for a staff position and ask me questions around the FR of the system they are about to build.
0 out of last 15 candidates asked my a clarifying question about the problem I gave them. I couldn’t in my good conscience rate them above a senior level. Unfortunately for them, quantity of years didn’t translate into quality of experience.
bluedevilzn@reddit
It’s very hard to get a staff role if you haven’t been a staff elsewhere. Staff engineer role is fundamentally different than being a good senior engineer.
I’d bet that stories you’re telling for your behavioural role does not meet the staff bar.
Finally, they may just not be hiring for staff roles. In an org of 100, there’s only a handful of staff engineers and there may not be any room for another one.
SpinnakerLad@reddit
I'd focus less on the title as what senior v staff means varies wildly between companies and look at what the actual role offered is, do you get the responsibilities you'd be looking for, how does the pay compare?
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
My main focus is on responsibilities.
I can perform well above senior IC for the kind of work they are expecting.
SpinnakerLad@reddit
Then what responsibilities did they offer and what do you want? The problem with your statement
Is you need the evidence to back it up.
Also indicates your stuck in the mindset of senior meaning the same thing everywhere. As 'well above Senior IC' could mean very different things for the grading different companies use.
gigastack@reddit
No idea why you are getting downvoted here 😂
Izacus@reddit
Because it's a silly non-answer with little to support it.
PrudentWolf@reddit
This checks out from tenth of posts I saw about CTO "becoming" IC at Anthropic.
Puggravy@reddit
At the staff level you start getting into serious word of mouth territory for getting a job. Just too many factors involved to risk it without someone really vouching for you. Extremely demoralizing to hire someone incompetent at staff especially if people within the org wanted to move into the position.
CaffeinatedT@reddit
Are they paying enough for you?
Unlikely_Secret_5018@reddit (OP)
Their staff roles would be enough. Their senior roles pay 50-80k less.
Cool_As_Your_Dad@reddit
Exaclty this. Call me waterboy as long as the money is what I want.
mint-parfait@reddit
yup, mostly in startups where you definitely aren't doing the job of just a "senior" too. I'm seeing a lot of incredibly inflated non-engineer titles too, like "director of product" with no direct reports and less than 5 years of experience.
jkmaks1@reddit
I'm android dev with 12 years of experience. I worked in one FAANG-like company for a several years, so my applications are well received, I get an interview 3 out of 10 applications. However, it is always down level or something aside. Some made up Product Engineer position ar Meta that is underpaid E5, or Google L4.
k_dubious@reddit
Welcome to the career levels of the industry. Time in level doesn’t mean much, lateral moves are the default unless you can make a compelling case otherwise, and sometimes there just won’t be any open headcount at the level you want.
seinfeld4eva@reddit
Most startups have no idea what "E5" means. If you want a title like "Staff" or "Principal" or "Lead," you should just ask for it.
secretBuffetHero@reddit
yes