Is owning/flying a plane truly that expensive?
Posted by LocationVegetable795@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 222 comments
I've seen many topics discussing that purchasing the plane is one part, Insurance and annual checkups is the hard part, is it really really expensive?
comradekopala@reddit
I've been pondering tbis question alot, some post here make it sound like you better bringing in 500k a year to afford a old Mooney or something.
I currently work on a airforce base and have access to the flight club that estiamtes around 14k for getting your ppl.
I have always wanted to fly , love aviation and its one of the main reasons I became an engineer. And it would just be for me to fly around and have fun.
I make mid 100k a year and my living expenses for the last 3 years have been living on 30-40k a year for actual expenses.
I would really like to get in something like a rv4 or rv8(maybe not now with how expensive those are now lol) or maybe even jump in the deep end with a cj6 or yak52.
Idk i keep telling my self i should wait till I make more money but ofc costs just keeping going up.
Additional-Hunter552@reddit
Yes
Kemerd@reddit
I tell people, it’s never a good financial decision. But boy Is it worth it! It will never make sense no matter how you do the numbers, but the fact you can sign the dotted line and have your own machine that fucking FLIES is amazing. Truly lucky to be born in this century!
otherwiseguy@reddit
Or you could be like me whose friend bought him a lesson and it was just like "meh, just another way to get from point a to b, being the person at the controls does absolutely nothing for me."
Kemerd@reddit
Totally different for me. Having someone else at the controls especially when I started made me really nauseous. Thought it’d follow me forever, but turns out it is a totally different feeling being in control of the airplane. It’s mostly gone now, mostly because I fly with pilots I know are good. lol.
ebawho@reddit
Only worth it if you have a buffer. I loved being able to turn up to the airport and fly whenever I wanted, but the looming 30k+ engine overhaul was a bit scary for me financially. If dropping that much money randomly doesn’t disrupt your household finances then 100% worth it. I’m not rich enough for it unless I built my whole lifestyle around it and gave up all my other hobbies unfortunately.
Granite_burner@reddit
I’d be ecstatic if my unplanned overhaul cost $30k!
I’m at twice that and not done yet.
Hopefully will have engine back in plane this coming week…
ebawho@reddit
Haha 30k or 60k either way having something looming over me like that was just stressful every time I flew or had to have maintenance done. I don’t have a big enough cushion to absorb that without it hurting (and/or making my wife very upset haha)
But moving to a new place and hangar fees starting at 600/month is what pushed me out of having a plane. I got into paragliding instead of get my fix.
junkyardman970@reddit
Damn I would love $600 hanger space! I’m in the cheapest shared space available for my 182 at $1000 a month
PhotoBeginning@reddit
I would love to have sub $1000/mo again. Up to $1800 in South Florida for a t-hangar.
junkyardman970@reddit
That’s crazy!
PhotoBeginning@reddit
It was $800 when I got my Comanche in 2021. Then Sheltair decided to jack it up 2 years ago.
planenut767@reddit
Have you looked at filing an FAA complaint? If it's a public airport that takes federal funding they're only allowed to increase rent by so much. A 110% increase would probably constitute it.
Inevitable_Street458@reddit
Happened here in Colorado (KAPA). One style of hangar went from $600 to $1200 a month. They're fighting it civilly. AOPA just shrugged and said they didn't have the time to pursue.
junkyardman970@reddit
I used to use sheltair in Clearwater a lot when coming to Florida. But have switched to Albert Whitted
PhotoBeginning@reddit
It has really killed a lot of my “flyable budget” I was pushing at least 100hrs each year until that increase.
Admirable_Meet_931@reddit
We would have dreamed to have a box!
PhotoBeginning@reddit
My first plane was a 172 I had on the ramp. So I had a tail number on the waitlist waaaaaay before I had the Comanche. Once I was under contract on the Comanche I was emailing the office every day (literally) asking about availability. I met a friend who worked for a couple FBOs and learned the “waitlist” is pretty bullshit and they more commonly contact the most recent/annoying person in their emails. I had the local hangar about 3 months after I closed on the Comanche. While I waited I paid transient rates on a hangar near my brother who was closer to it because it was winter and I didn’t want it in the snow.
ebawho@reddit
Dayum that’s crazy!
Granite_burner@reddit
Around here there just are no hangers available. Yesterday I was told 2 to 3 year waitlist at KOKV.
planenut767@reddit
Yeah there's no hangars available anywhere in my state (NJ) or 50 miles in on the neighboring states unless you get hooked up somehow (like buy an airplane from the local FBO).
massunderestmated@reddit
I wasn't even born in this century and I still enjoy it.
BeginningTotal7378@reddit
It makes sense to own. Not because of the numbers, but because of the intangibles. If you want it for financial reasons--you don't want it. You have to want it despite the financial reasons telling you not to.
It is life changing though. The people you meet. The groups you join. It can completely turn your social circle upside down if you go all-in on it.
skyHawk3613@reddit
Yea…it’s more like an expensive toy
JT-Av8or@reddit
Depends on your level of skill & the quality of the machine. Mine is a travel machine, not a joyride toy, for all weather except icing.
Granite_burner@reddit
I’d be ecstatic if my unplanned overhaul cost $30k!
I’m at twice that and not done yet.
Hopefully will have engine back in plane this coming week…
Ok-Arrival5542@reddit
If folks want a more detailed answer I’ve been using this for my research. It was sobering.
https://pilotcost.net
Flat-Barracuda1268@reddit
Missing the cost of annual. The assumed rates are probably low as well depending on your area and what kind of pilot you are. Hobbyist pilots (<1000 hours non commercial) will likely pay a much higher insurance premium.
Ok-Arrival5542@reddit
The annual is hidden in “advanced settings”. And good to know that I’ll be paying more in insurance than I thought. Eek.
Yuri909@reddit
We're done here.
x4457@reddit
Define "really expensive."
It costs about $15-20K/year for me to own my Bonanza before flying a single hour in it. Then $250ish/hour to operate it if I factor everything in.
The Cardinal is a little bit more on the fixed because it's a rental, a little less on the direct operating cost.
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
As a fellow bonanza owner, these numbers are spot on. And that's only if you know what you're doing and own a "known quantity" airplane.
But we could very easily need a $50,000 motor next month...
Julian-Jurkoic@reddit
Yes. That's approximately the median take home pay (after tax) in the US. Half of all people here make less than that, most people worldwide make far less than that. If you don't consider that expensive, you are very fortunate.
ApoTHICCary@reddit
One of my Filipino colleagues bought a gorgeous beach house back in the Philippines for $30k and did a full renovation for another $15k. Just a vacation home, but his family back in the Philippines see that as living like a king.
Still cost less than an engine rebuild.
ProctorFarmer@reddit
Sounds good. Then he must be a Pinoy citizen, not US. Us citizens can not own property
ApoTHICCary@reddit
I did say he is Filipino, so yes; he was born in the Philippines then immigrated to the USA for college, and has dual citizenship.
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
If a $50,000 engine is too expensive for you, then owning a Bonanza is not for you.
But there are plenty of people who can afford that. Like it or not, there's a lot of people with money in the world. Private aircraft ownership has always required money.
Salt-Cold1056@reddit
Plenty is probably an overstatement, there is enough people in the US and Canada to keep Lycoming and Continental in business. There were plenty of people who could afford planes in the 1970's when Cessna production was approaching that of a niche vehicle manufacturer and producing 10x of what they are right now.
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
A lot more people can afford ownership than you think. It's all a matter or prioritizing what you want. And again, 99.9% of the population doesn't want to own and fly their own aircraft.
Julian-Jurkoic@reddit
That's my point, there's not a lot. There are in fact vanishingly few. You, like most people, just struggle to wrap your head around big numbers. You know a handful of people who can afford it so it seems normal, the 8 billion others who couldn't ever afford it is just an abstraction to you.
That's not a judgement of your character, that's just a fact. You're very lucky, as am I, even though I'll probably never afford a bonanza.
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
Owning a personal aircraft was never intended to be for every person on the planet, or every person in the country.
So what that most people can't afford it? Most people don't want to!
lctalbot@reddit
If God had intended for us to fly, he'd had given us more money!
SleepAltruistic2367@reddit
Not to be an ass, but in the private aviation world you can expect to spend that much every couple of years. Want to upgrade all your avionics? $150-200k. New interiors can run $100k, paint 50k+… the list is never ending.
JT-Av8or@reddit
Exactly. I make $40k roughly per month, so it’s not cheap but also not breaking the bank.
x4457@reddit
That's kinda their point though. And mine.
This all scales. A new engine is expensive for me, that same new engine is a rounding error for my boss. He spent 5-figures to go to lunch last month.
Face88888888@reddit
What job does your boss have, and how do I get it?
x4457@reddit
I fly private jets for a living.
DeltaTule@reddit
Since when is a Bonanza motor $50K that’s like O-360 prices. I bet it’s $80K now
x4457@reddit
I paid $36,500 for an O-360 in a box last year, so….
DeltaTule@reddit
Factory new, rebuilt, or overhauled?
Is that the cost installed or uninstalled?
Times have changed since last year already, as well
x4457@reddit
Overhauled, uninstalled (so add like $2K), and no they haven’t because the same builder just listed the same engine for the same price a month ago.
DeltaTule@reddit
$2K to install it sure it is /s
x4457@reddit
I just looked at my invoice - $2,350.00 to both remove the old and install the new engine.
But sure man, you keep on doubting.
DeltaTule@reddit
Do you live in a third world country?
Cessnateur@reddit
Poplar Grove Airmotive, outside of Chicago, is a particularly well-respected overhaul shop. The quote I received from them to remove an old six-cylinder engine and install a new one was about the same.
x4457@reddit
Nope, I live in Southern California.
Ready for your next movement of the goalposts.
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
You can easily get an IO-470 overhauled for $50k if you know what you're doing.
DeltaTule@reddit
Ahh yes picking the motors used in Bonanzas from 1947 - 1963 instead of the more realistic 520/550 so it better suits your argument.
And also, unless you’re installing it yourself bare minimum is $60K on an overhauled and installed 470.
Also, in your OC you never once specified whether it was overhauled, rebuilt, or factory new. You almost alluded to new imo.
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
I mean, that's the engine and Bonanza I own, so that's what I'm familiar with. I didn't allude to anything.
BeginningTotal7378@reddit
If it was only 50k for a new engine... Those were the good old days.
Granite_burner@reddit
It’s also different if you know it’s coming. Spending $60k to overhaul an engine that’s run out at the manufacturer’s suggested 2000 hour TBO should be a planned expense, with money set aside or budgeted for a maintenance reserve. Having a recently purchased mid-time engine unexpectedly fail before you’ve had time to build a maintenance reserve is a different story, but it’s one you need to be able to handle finding yourself in the middle of.
Available_Repair609@reddit
Where does the $15-20k come from? In my uneducated brain, all I see are hanger fees, insurance, and an annual, is there more involved or is my understanding of these costs just completely wrong?
x4457@reddit
You're underestimating what those things cost.
NuclearDC10@reddit
Met a guy with his Bonanza at a small French airfield yesterday. What a fabulous machine!
acidreducer@reddit
What’s the rental rate on a bonanza? This seems like you could rent for less than 15k entry fee and 250/hr.
I understand why you wouldn’t want to rent, but at what point is it just “I can afford it so who cares.” (Might be too personal of a question, not trying to be rude.)
SleepAltruistic2367@reddit
Not a Bonanza, but the cirrus rental facility at my home airport is renting Sr22s for $500+/hr.
x4457@reddit
1) Good luck finding an A36 for rental.
2) I'm not interested in renting someone else's airplane.
3) I use the aircraft for several of my business ventures and that is incompatible with renting.
Bob_Ross3346@reddit
^^ yes, this. You can’t really rent one, and if you can good luck having it available when you need it.
Appropriate-Topic-30@reddit
177RG owner here and I'm around $15k before it flies as well. Planning for my annual next month, and it will be about $10k for an owner assist (replacing wing tips/ lighting, adding a G5, updating cowl fasteners.). Here's to not finding anything major hah
DDX1837@reddit
Those numbers sound about right. Of course location and pilot experience will affect it some. I had a 182-RG in the Chicago area. Then I moved to the FL panhandle and immediately started saving a few thousand per year in hangar rent.
Then I finished a Velocity XL-RG and really started saving on maintenance and parts. Of course, insurance took a bite our of some of those savings.
aftcg@reddit
About 25% more and your numbers match up with owning my Baron. Helps that I know how to Appendix A, have a hangar, tools, time, understanding wife, 2 LLCs, tax man...
4020_Driver@reddit
C55 Baron owner, A&P/IA here. These numbers are pretty close. 20k a year in my case, LCOL area, my Mx labor being “free” and parts at “cost”. Flying 70-80ish hours a year.
Probably will blow 80ishK on avionics this winter (thank good I can install most of them on my own).
Pro tip- the understanding wife helps out a fucking lot.
aftcg@reddit
Yes to all of this. And my IA is the best. He charges me a 20% reverse discount even!
x4457@reddit
Your own wrenching is really leaning heavily on making that 25% instead of 35% I suspect.
aftcg@reddit
This is true. And, even more of a hack, I can sauce my plane's parts, troubleshoot avionics and AP issues, paint and interior.
But keep in mind my new car is a 2016 kia and I still drive a 1990 pickup I bought new in 90.
Cant_Work_On_Reddit@reddit
I have a 182 and it’s a bit less but definitely the same ballpark.
adnwilson@reddit
It's not always that expensive, but the thought that it MAY be that expensive is what gives people the most trouble. If you can buy it out right then you only need liability insurance which can be cheaper and annuals can be failry inexpensive. But then again they can also be insanely high. Plus maintenance can go just fine or something can ground you for months.
Some put money aside for the "what if" some don't, but like any hobby, you're putting a price on enjoyment and a subjective since of worth.
All the videos and post on here talking about the cost are including planning for the worst case. But you can also yolo it and just pay for fuel.
ProctorFarmer@reddit
Yes: it can and will be. Going through annuals is many times a roll of the dice. I have a ‘73 cherokee for 6 yrs. I always put $1500/month for annual and insurance.
NoCardiologist6736@reddit
Honestly, it’s more
FlapsNegative@reddit
Buy into a group if you can. If you're like me and only fly every now and then, it makes no sense to pay for 100% of an aircraft. So I pay for 1/12. Cost me less than a grand a year and i get to fly it nearly whenever i want as long as i plan ahead a little.
EntroperZero@reddit
"That" expensive and "really really" expensive are relative terms. Compared to what?
No-Wing810@reddit
My first plane was a 1958 7EC. I paid $20k in 2017. Annuals were around $800, hangar rent at my local airport was $150 a month (small town advantage). Insurance was around $700 a year. I sold it and bought a Citabria. Had a few other airplanes since and honestly wouldn’t want to not own an airplane at this point. But I was happy to fly around at 90mph on the weekends in a simple tube and fabric airplane. That kind of flying doesn’t appeal to everyone.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Correct, but most engine overhauls are not a surprise. Just had an IO-540 done because it was at 2k hrs. I’ve had to replace a few cylinders on a O360 but again compression checks showed there was a problem. Does it happen? Yes does it happen to most no.
You’re arguing for the sake of arguing you know damn well it can be as cheap or as expensive as you choose to make it. I pointed out several times that you can buy a cub for about 30 grand and fly extremely cheap. Or you can dump $500k easy, but the second someone asks on Reddit if owning a plane is affordable everybody immediately jumps on the o”h my God, no!!!” bandwagn.
Price a wakeboard boat and a monthly cost on a boat slip at a larger lake. A new Centurion is over $300k, you can buy a 172 for half that. I own two hangers one of them I rent out for 300 a month.
Zestyclose_Duck_9359@reddit
Buying the plane is like adopting a puppy. The purchase price is the easy part, then it starts eating your money through insurance, annuals, hangar rent, fuel, and that engine overhaul fund quietly ticking in the background like a financial time bomb.
Few_Party294@reddit
It depends on your goals and how much you flying. We bought a $55k PA-23 to build multi-time. Insurance-$6k/yr, hangar-$8500/yr, annual inspections average-$12k/yr.
We flew it on average 100hrs per month, so it “paid for itself” after just a few months of owning it vs what we would have paid if we rented a multi.
Now that I’ve got the jet job I was after, I’m just a casual GA flyer and not trying to build flight time as aggressively. The Apache now only gets airborne around 50hrs per YEAR. It’s no longer economical to own it, I need to sell it, but I’m emotionally invested in the plane so it’s going to be hard to part with it haha.
Cessnateur@reddit
What has the maintenance been like?
Few_Party294@reddit
Just got it back from annual a couple weeks ago, and the damage was just under $10k. Most expensive annual was closer to $20k but we also did some optional and unnecessary things to the plane and had to send the heater out to get completely rebuilt.
Other than that, it’s been really fine. I do my own oil changes. My Father-in-law helps me with 100-hour inspections cause he’s an A&P but it would only be a few hundred bucks to get a mechanic to knock the ADs out. Had one cylinder stick, and we honed that out and it’s been fine since.
Engines are way past TBO (around 2700hrs) but still kicking and not using any oil, not making any metal. The Lycoming O-320s are awesome.
Cessnateur@reddit
It’s great to hear of a vintage twin receiving care and attention. Bring it to Oshkosh in July!
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Bullshit, it’s as expensive as you want it to be.
Everything on a Reddit is gloom and doom.
Crash_Ntome@reddit
One girl’s gloom and doom is another man’s realistic
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Show me ANY hobby that’s not expensive. It’s all relative, a $1000 annual is a deal breaker for some where a $12,000 annual is for someone else and $80k is typical for another. You can buy several planes for less than one wakeboard boat.
Crash_Ntome@reddit
you sound like someone whose mummy and daddy paid for LOTS of shit
trying to call bullshit on the obvious observation that aircraft ownership is expensive is just asinine
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
You are a douche canoe. You can buy a cub or champ for $30k or a glasiar and the costs are less than a boat or race car. Or you can buy a TBM or PC12 and spend millions.
Don’t act like it’s not all relative. I’m sorry math is hard for you
Crash_Ntome@reddit
You:
BULLSHIT! Owning an airplane is NOT expensive!
Everyone else:
fer fuks sake
go play on the wakeboard that mummy and daddy bought you
flying-ModTeam@reddit
/r/flying is intended to be a friendly and accepting place; check your ego at the door and take your snark and attitude elsewhere.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Well it’s probably hard to read with your head up your own ass but that is not what I said. Learn to read.
Show me where I said “owning an airplane is NOT expensive”
Crash_Ntome@reddit
after you fly the airplane that Mummy bought you do you think Daddy will let you drive his race car?
vrooom! vrooom vroooooooom!
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
I noticed you didn’t actually respond because you know I’m right.
Crash_Ntome@reddit
lol
look at me daddy! vroooooooooooooom!
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
I’m not your BF so don’t call me daddy. Save that for your bull.
Julian-Jurkoic@reddit
Music, I can buy a $500 dollar guitar that will last me the rest of my life Cycling, my $200 bike can literally take me anywhere Fishing, art, movies, gardening... many hobbies aren't expensive. Most people try to counter this by saying "oh but there's a million dollar guitar". That doesn't make it an expensive hobby, you don't have to spend that. There's 100 million dollar airplanes. You can't compare the low end of one hobby to the high end of another, you can spend infinite money on any hobby.
The low end of aviation is much, much higher than the low end of other hobbies.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Gee almost like I said “it’s can be as expensive as you want it to be”
Never said it was “cheap” but everyone on here acts like you have to make $500k per year to own a plane and it’s absolutely bullshit.
Julian-Jurkoic@reddit
Gee, almost like the first thing you said was, "show me a hobby that isn't expensive" and I did. No need to get upset about it.
I agree that's BS, I own one for pretty cheap, but it's still a crazy expensive hobby.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Your $500 guitar is massively more expensive than collecting bottle caps. But to someone who’s broke as fuck $500 is a big deal and is expensive.
Julian-Jurkoic@reddit
You're conflating "generally expensive" with "expensive to a particular person". OP was asking if it's generally expensive, which it is, you are saying "well it depends on how much you make, if you make 250k a year it's not that expensive" which is also true, but not really the discussion because anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together understands that things seem less expensive when you have more money.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Then the general answer to “is it expensive?” Shouldn’t be the typical Reddit bullshit “yes!” Because it’s all relative.
If you read almost every reply on this sub NO ONE can afford a private plane. Everyone gives gloom and doom about $30,000 annuals and $500 per month hangar rent and it’s mostly bullshit. Do they happen? Yes, is it the norm? Absolutely not.
Julian-Jurkoic@reddit
Brother, I made a whole top level comment about how it can be affordable, that's not doom and gloom, but it's a wicked expensive hobby. Only thing I can think of that matches it on the low end is car racing, which is also notoriously expensive.
500$ for a hangar is incredibly cheap most metro areas, not the norm at all. And $30,000 annuals happen all the time, anytime an engine needs an overhaul that's the minimum.
Hawker172D@reddit
Depends on how much money you have to burn.
Obvious_Pumpkin_4821@reddit
I'm in a flaying club with 15 other people sharing a single Cherokee. Membership is $75 month after a $1000 buy-in and then I pay $90/hr tach time (incl. fuel).
BandicootNo4431@reddit
How is availability with 15 people?
acfoltzer@reddit
I'm in a club with the same ratio, 3 airplanes and 45 members, and it is almost always possible to get a flight in on any given day. The real limitation is taking a plane for a longer trip or a weekend during the flying season. It can be done, but only planned in advance and not done often if you don't want to upset the other members.
CommercialLazy3563@reddit
That’s the entire appeal of having an airplane for me. I’m not going to join a club just to put around in the same area for 2 hours, I’d like to get out and go somewhere.
acfoltzer@reddit
Yep, it's why I'm trying to find a partnership or talk myself into buying.
BandicootNo4431@reddit
I was also in a club with 3 airplanes. We had like 150 members on paper who paid $50/month, but only 40-50 actually flew.
I found that you could fly most days if you wanted to - but I also think having more than one plane helped a lot.
They could stagger annuals and 100 hour inspections, and we could designate 1 airplane as the cross country bird and let people book that one weeks in advance and leave the others for people to casually fly.
Wasn't sure if 15 people sharing 1 airplane would have the same outcomes though.
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
I’m on the board of a 65~ member club with 4 aircraft. I imagine 1 for 15 is nice
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
seems worse to me, actually. that 1 or 2 weeks a year someone takes a long trip by GA, the club's shut down for a week.
instead making it 3 planes for 65 people for a week seems much better!
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
I’ve noticed with smaller clubs that long trips seem to be discouraged tbh
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
yeah depends on the club for sure, I certainly wouldn't join a club that doesn't want you to take trips - the hell's the point of a club if you can't USE the plane?!?
Obvious_Pumpkin_4821@reddit
I've never not had the airplane available when I wanted to fly, the clubs been around for awhile and they found 15 members is the sweet spot for availability.
Competitive-Elk6117@reddit
Where are you I wanna sign up!
Few-Panda7558@reddit
Nahhh put the misspelling back pumpkin pie
Noisycarlos@reddit
Nice! What city?
ImmaZoni@reddit
As someone who's thought I was priced out of flying (at least for now)
I'm going to have to look into this!
Fulcrum58@reddit
Just curious, how do you guys include the fuel in the hourly rate say if you take it and have to pay for fuel somewhere?
Obvious_Pumpkin_4821@reddit
Home field $/gal is the rate for fuel credit. The tach hours sets the total, and then the fuel you paid for is deducted from that. Sometimes you may have paid more for fuel than the flying time and that balance holds as a credit for the next time you fly (all managed through flight circle)
Few-Panda7558@reddit
I love flaying clubs
AtariFerrariNH@reddit
It just cost $16,000 to overhaul the landing gear gearbox on the airplane I'm a partner on. Thank goodness I didn't have to pay the whole thing.
Minute-Illustrator64@reddit
It's only as expensive as you want it to be. I bought mine split in a 5 way partnership (including me). Cheap Cessna 150 which was around 40k. The annual cost of us owning it was about $13,000 in expenses - but it was split 5 ways. Our operating cost is about $30/hr dry. It's very manageable if you have good income or are living with parents and don't have expenses. Our numbers are a little cheaper though because we are friends with an A&P that does stuff for us for cheap.
JoeThomas7864@reddit
How do you get to $13k annually on a 150? That seems unusually high.
Minute-Illustrator64@reddit
Honestly a lot of our costs are just oil. Also 13k is including two annuals which were both $3,000. New spark plugs and cylinder and shit too. We fly the fuck out of the plane so the maintenance items happen more frequent in a year than someone who doesn't fly much.
JoeThomas7864@reddit
I just had to replace a tail cone bulkhead in a 200 series Cessna. I feel your pain. First annual was $25k.
Relevant_Night_9288@reddit
It's expensive if you're lazy. If you're just wanting to fly and do nothing else, it'll reward you appropriately. If your idea is to write up squawks and send it to a shop for annuals and maintenance, you'll be done in less than 3 years.
Get involved in its care, hire a local A/P or I/A and do all the work yourself, soon you'll start keeping on-hand stock of common parts and preventive maintenance becomes second nature, then it's actually very affordable.
Source: I own a single engine Cessna for 16yrs.
RepublicActive5439@reddit
It costs me approximately $25,000 a year for everything to fly my Mooney M20K 100 hours. That includes, hangar, insurance, maintenance, annual, gas… everything.
Active_Bag13@reddit
There are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.
And they are all expensive when you own an airplane.
Marill12@reddit
Just buy a Ultralight like Aeromarine Merlin , u can self maintain it and the operating costs are very low , no hamgar fees as u can fold the wings and tow it home
Catch_0x16@reddit
In the UK I fly 3 axis microlights (LSA in the US). I bought my own (Thruster T600) a few years back for £1000. It wasn't airworthy and I repaired it. Spent about £2500 repairing it, including inspections etc.
Yearly it costs me £1200 for hangarage, £300 for insurance and about £30 petrol costs per hour.
If you go LSA you'll get more for your money.
BillySpacs@reddit
Just build a spreadsheet it’s fairly easy to see what the cost is (plane type dependent).
The more nuanced reality is I know someone who spends $500K/year on flying and for him it’s a rounding error (he flies his own jet). I also know some that spend around $40K/year and it’s similarly an accepted cost. So expensive is also dependent on your own financial situation. At bare minimum you’re probably looking at $15K-$20K/year and if for you (like most people) that qualifies as expensive then yes it’s expensive
gromm93@reddit
You can't build a spreadsheet for affordability to find out if you can afford a thing that you haven't bought yet.
The real answer to this is "do you have a minimum of $80,000 in the bank right now, and adding another $20,000 a year to that?"
While the costs might not be quite so high, its way better to overestimate costs and be wrong than underestimate and be wrong.
By the way, this number is a wild fantasy for over 90% of Americans, the richest population in the world. If you're saying "well that's not so bad", you can't see your own privilege.
BillySpacs@reddit
Not sure if you’re talking to me about my privilege? To be clear I do not own a plane and I did build a spreadsheet for predictable costs (Insurance estimate, tiedown, fuel burn per hour flown, Average annual overhaul amount for type of plane, and average allowance per year for a future major overhaul divided by number of hours left till overhaul) Then there’s acquisition cost either direct or financed and potential upgrades again, depending on specific plane and that doesn’t even take into account the wild one off cost that you can’t predict. So yes, you can absolutely build a spreadsheet without having personally bought a plane to say otherwise is fairly ignorant.
Speaking of which, this is a flying sub that is predominantly Americans. Whenever someone in here starts talking about privilege, I roll my eyes. Of course it’s a first world problem. Everything we deal with is. When I go to the airport to rent the cheapest shittiest plane there, I am well aware that I’m the poorest person at the airport When I see all the Jets and turboprops parked next to me. I don’t whine about their privilege because honestly who cares. I have food every day and a healthy family.
theduckingfutchman@reddit
If it floats, flys or fucks rent it.
DeltaTule@reddit
It’s a catchy saying that we all love. But unfortunately it’s not entirely true. I’ve owned my plane for nearly 30 years and commute to work weekly in it in the SF Bay Area. I can’t imagine not owning it. I don’t even fly it much at all outside of that other than flying it to my cabin
Agile_Animator9337@reddit
Yup
lovelyfeyd@reddit
Yes, especially when you double up.
2009impala@reddit
Take what you expect it to cost and multiply by a factor of 1.5x.
one1200@reddit
Uhh yeah. $200-$300 an hour
Adorable-Meeting-120@reddit
It kind of depends. If you buy experimental then your costs are substantially reduced.
If you are buying a certified aircraft you should definitely do some type of commercial operation with it to help recover some of the costs.
NYVikesGuy@reddit
Yes. I’ve done the math a dozen different t ways. Really tough to justify versus renting.
davihar@reddit
Compared to what?
SeeMarkFly@reddit
It doesn't pay, it costs.
Big plane, big cost. Little plane, about the same cost.
weaselkeeper@reddit
It depends on your circumstances.
I have a Beechcraft Bonanza that was in rough shape when I got it but it was given to me. I run a flight school so the cost of storage (hangar) is free for me. I’m an A&P/IA so I only pay for parts not labor and I get parts 45% lower than retail.
I know my story isn’t the average but depending on circumstances it can be affordable.
mindless23@reddit
Join a flying club. It makes the cost reasonable. You’re splitting the cost among 20-30 pilots. The trade off is more scheduling competition
holl0918@reddit
It really depends. For a simple, fixed gear, naturally aspirated all-metal two seater? It's really not that bad. I am an A&P and between myself and our IA we can and have done an annual inspection on a 172 in a single day after the owner took all the inspection panels off/cowl off/seats out. Now that is certainly not the norm (usually SOMETHING needs doing), but it has happened. Start throwing in things like retractable gear, composite airframe, turbocharged engines, etc and the yearly fixed costs rapidly balloon out of all proportion to the added capability. We love our RV6/7/8s.
Dave_A480@reddit
That depends on what you mean by plane.
Part 103 ultralight? No. It's a snowmobile with wings, as long as you don't rip the fabric or leave it out in the sun when not flying, it's not that pricey.....
Experimental homebuilt? About as spendy as a boat..... You can do your own maintenance and parts don't have to be certified, so you can save some money there over the '$100 car alternator with a $400 FAA approval sticker' scenario often found when rebadged car parts are used in certified aviation....
Certified aircraft are sometimes cheaper to buy than EAB (if we are talking vintage stuff) and tend to have advantages like... More than 2 seats (most EAB designs are geared towards the 60+ crowd who no longer have kids at home)..... But maintenance when done the legal/right way will eat your wallet....
LocationVegetable795@reddit (OP)
I was thinking about a vans-rv10
Dave_A480@reddit
The RV10 and the Comanche make a good comparison between experimental and certified.....
Same engine (literally, salvaged Comanches are a source for the O-540 model used in building an RV, if you are rebuilding a core engine rather than buying new to save money)....
And the 10.is one of the few EABs that isn't a 2 seat hotrod or a Cub clone....
You will pay more to buy the 10 but less to maintain it.
And by more I mean total cost between 100 and 200k (it's been a while since I looked)......
Flat-Barracuda1268@reddit
Wonderful aircraft. This would be my short list for EAB. The cost is very high though. If you build it yourself you're looking at 250K and two years of your time. If you buy someone elses, 400K easy for a well built one with decent avionics.
junebug172@reddit
It’s horrific.
Fly3rBoi@reddit
Like anything it’s relative to your income and your desire to fly.
Flying is a A1 priority for ME. I’ve had a good life and have some disposable income. The amount of my expenses related to my aircraft are acceptable for ME. It’s a very personal decisions and sometimes it takes making sacrifices on other hobbies to make it work for ME.
I fly 225-275 hours per year and my yearly costs are a bit over $125/hr all in flying my sling tsi. That does NOT include the purchase price which I believe is fair, my last three aircraft sold for more than I purchased them for.
skylaneguy@reddit
I own a 182 that I paid $160k for.
I just put $100k into for avionics only to shortly find out it needed an overhaul and wing/tail repair to the tune of an additional $100k.
I like to think I got unlucky though and this is not the norm for ownership. On a normal year to fly 150 hours I think it will cost me about $25k.
PG67AW@reddit
Depends on your income. If you can set aside around $25k per year, you can afford to operate a plane. This number will vary A LOT depending on the type of plane you own, whether it's a partnership, whether it's certified or experimental, where you live, and a whole list of other factors. I was able to own a high performance aerobatic biplane while on a $40k salary about ten years ago. It's getting more expensive, but I'd say it's still doable for the average person if they make it a priority.
SkylanePilot95@reddit
I’ve owned a 182 since 2017… averaging about $25k a year
Flat-Barracuda1268@reddit
Is that fixed or does that include flying? How much do you fly? 182 is on my list for certified I would pick.
skylaneguy@reddit
By my math that’s about 100 hours a year flying
lctalbot@reddit
I have a PA-28... A pretty inexpensive airplane to own/operate.
Other than purchase costs, I spent between $20-$50K per year.
Phaas777A@reddit
Flying an airplane that you own is not very expensive… essentially just the cost of 100LL and some oil.
Owning can be expensive depending on whether you’re paying for a hangar or tie-down, your insurance policy, and avionics that require a database subscription, and potential state taxes or registration.
It’s the maintenance that can make or break someone’s finances. My A&P charges $1,250 for an annual… until compressions failed on 3/4 cylinders after being in the low-mid 70s the year prior… then found corrosion on the camshaft once he removed the jugs for replacement.
Engine was 1,050hrs SMOH, had been flown regularly/stored in a hangar for the past \~7yrs, and was scoped in 2023 with no corrosion found. Our best guess was that the corrosion had been present for years and was up in a spot that was essentially impossible to see until the cylinders were removed for replacement.
So $42k later, I’ve got a newly overhauled engine and it’s flying nice and happy. I’d factored a $50k overhaul reserve into my initial budget, so it was painful but not catastrophic.
Tl;dr - Have an engine overhaul funded on day 1 of ownership or you’re gonna have a bad time.
Flat-Barracuda1268@reddit
I have looked at this pretty extensively. These are the approximate costs in my area:
Cheapest: Flying club. Pros: Cheap, generally available. Cons: Generally slower training-like airplanes (172/182). Assume around $100 per hour flown and $5K buyin.
Cheaper: Renting. Pros: Well maintained aircraft. Cons: Lack of availability, trainer aircraft. Cost is 150/mo for club membership and around $160 per hour flown.
Average: Partnership. Pros: Higher performance airplanes. Fixed costs are shared. Generally easy to schedule. Cons: Need to find hangar space. Need to trust partner. Cost assuming 2 partners: 10K fixed and 120/hr flown, plus half the purchase price of the plane.
High: Solo certified aircraft. Pros: Pick your plane. Scheduling never an issue. Cons: High initial cost and hangar space. Cost: 20K fixed, 120/hr flown, and cost of plane.
Highest: Solo experimental aircraft. Pros: Can fly new for a fraction of the cost of certified. MX costs greatly reduced. Generally faster. No scheduling issues. Cons: You have to build it to do your own annual conditionals. Cost: 15K fixed, 100/hr flown, and cost/time to build the plane.
I've looked pretty seriously at all of these. I need to nail down my mission before I pull the trigger on owning. I will probably continue to rent for the near future.
JT-Av8or@reddit
It depends on what it is and how much you consider expensive. I have a small twin (PA-30 Twin Comanche) which is considered one of the most efficient twins. Now granted, I also maintain it to top levels and upgrade it (interior, avionics, paint, etc) and I use it like a car. I spend, on average $2,500 a month, flying it about 100 hours a year.
felistrophic@reddit
I bought 20% of a Cherokee my flight school operates. That way I can train in it for $75/hr instead of $175/hr and once I have my license I can sign it out and fly whenever I want at that same rate wet, but I will need to schedule in advance as it flies frequently with other students. The school rents it from the LLC of which I own a fifth, and after maintenance, hangaring and insurance the LLC makes a little money annually. Not a ton, maybe a few thousand for my share, but it'll help cover other costs.
20% of a solid IFR certified Cherokee with G5s and a good autopilot ran me $20k. Aside from buying a plane outright and doing a leaseback to a school, which can make money, this was the most economical way I could figure out to fly, with fewer risks and logistics than sole ownership. But the availability of the aircraft is a significant downside
alexmoose454@reddit
Depends how much you make?
If you make $400K a year, a small 182 or Mooney is probably affordable.
If you make $80K a year, I’d consider that “expensive”
Timrf79@reddit
There are a lot of factors that play into that.
What type of plane?
Where do you keep it?
Can you do the work on it yourself (under qualified supervision)?
How much do you fly and what certification do you have?
If you own a large lot of land, have a barn like structure and own an afford-a-plane your cost structure is going to be vastly different versus living in a big city where you have a hard time renting hangar space and want to own a P210SilverEagle
No-Cell-8208@reddit
I bought a Cessna 150 10 months ago for $25k (missing first set of logs and sat for two years). I’ve now exceeded that amount in year one maintenance.
GaryMooreAustin@reddit
You need to look at as purely disposable funds. Avoid any justification other than I just want this...
skyHawk3613@reddit
Maintenance and fuel is expensive
Cessnateur@reddit
For whatever reason, a handful of users in this sub love framing aircraft ownership as an absolute financial catastrophe, suggesting that one must have three times the purchase price in the bank before making a purchase, and professing that one must have $100k in the bank to address any given maintenance challenge.
In reality, plenty of people make it work just fine on salaries that most would describe and categorize as "real world," based on several realities:
In short, if you can afford the acquisition and upkeep of a new pickup truck and, say, a bass boat, you can probably afford to own and fly a modest airplane.
Designer_Solid4271@reddit
A certified aircraft. Yes. An experimental, not as much.
Avi8or182@reddit
If it flies, floats, or f*cks, you’re better off renting. This is the best advice I unfortunately ignored.
time_adc@reddit
Yes
flyghu@reddit
The best response I've heard... If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
Cessnateur@reddit
That might be the worst response I hear. Without a single exception, very single aircraft owner I’ve ever met asked about the price before making the purchase.
Rmauck@reddit
Yes.
But worth it if you can afford it.
There were the normal operating costs: gas, oil, insurance, hangar, etc... Then plan on the $50k engine overhaul, 500 hour magneto overhaul, starter or alternator that fails at the wrong time, etc…. and random squawks that should be fixed. You really dont want the little things to pile up.
Then there are the upgrades…. New panels look so pretty….
You can manage the costs, but it is far from cheap. And not good financial sense. But still worth it.
Loudsongsinc@reddit
No, it's not that expensive. It's more.
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
Yes. Average for a G5 SR22T is about 460-500 per hour if you fly 100 hours. That at least gives you and idea of cost.
CartographerAware808@reddit
If you have to ask, it’s probably not for you.
Also, if you don’t know the standard rule for buying your own plane, also probably not for you. If you don’t fly 200 hours a year, it won’t be worth it. Find a club if you fly 50+, just rent if you’re under 50hrs.
rwy36@reddit
Yes, puts boats to shame.
Overall-Lynx917@reddit
Yacht Ownership. Standing in a cold shower whilst ripping up £20 notes.
Aircraft Ownership. Feeding £50 notes into a shredder whilst your friends tell you how great it must be
Acquilas@reddit
My stepdad owns a Piper Commanche and it's amazing...except for when he had to had the entire engine repaired...then not so amazing.
humboldtreign@reddit
“If it flies, floats, or faux, it’s cheaper to rent.”
lsthrowaway69@reddit
If it floats, fucks or flies, rent, don’t buy
Thumper45@reddit
If you can afford to buy a new car every single year then owning a plane is not expensive. If you can not afford that it is the quickest way to be happy and broke
patheticist@reddit
150 costs about $40/hr to operate and $4K in fixed costs. And you can split those with a partner!
But yeah, high performance 4 place aircraft, that can easily 10x.
320sim@reddit
Exactly, it's not like the only option is a Bonanza or a 182
traolcoladis@reddit
Having owned a plane…. Yes…. When it breaks and you can’t get a lame to repair it…. That breaks your heart…
zad112@reddit
Depends why you are getting it. If you’re just getting it to fly around it, absolutely it’s extremely expensive. Nowww, if you’re trying to build time it’s not too bad a deal. Way cheaper than renting if you fly enough. A good way to get to 1000 hours and get some sort of real ish job.
Rant CFI is not for everyone and having a bunch instructors who can fly great but are terrible teachers because they never wanted to teach is making a bunch of half baked pilots. Being a teacher and being a pilot are 2 separate jobs that sometimes people who are gifted can combine. I hate people that go “well just become a CFI and teach that’s a great way to get hours” Rant over
JhPPharmaGuy@reddit
I've owned Cessnas, a Piper Arrow, and now a Cirrus SR22T G6. A general rule of thumb is to expect a range from 5%- 10% of what you paid in annual costs. But a $100,000 airplane, expect $5K - $10K in costs. Buy an $800K airplane, expect $40K - $80K in costs. So now I'll ask you - is "that expensive?"
Phocio@reddit
You can buy something like an Ercoupe or a Cessna 150 for $20,000-$40,000. It’s not going to be a high performance plane but it’ll get you in the air. Maintenance and insurance is relatively inexpensive and simple.
RoseRedHillHouse@reddit
C-150s are seeming to start at $40K these days unless it's a visible POS with known serious issues preventing airworthiness until fixed for $$$.
Menno_knight987@reddit
I have a fractional 172 split 4 ways. It’s $140 pp each month for our fixed expenses, hanger, insurance, taxes etc. It’s another 100 hours per tach hour. As a hobby, it’s pretty expensive. Most everyone I know at some point has had to shell out 6-8k on a random annual out of the blue. We’re sitting on reserves for just that reason.
EngineerFly@reddit
No.
(This is for owners based in the US, with US costs and typical US incomes.)
If your goal is to simply own an airplane, you can do that without spending a fortune. Plan on an old, simple, all metal two seater. Plan on buying one without fancy avionics. Buy one with faded paint, because you’re going to park it outside.
Focus on the fixed costs, not the direct costs. What can kill you are hangar, annual inspections, unplanned maintenance (i.e. shit breaks), and insurance. I’m ignoring depreciation because if it’s old enough, you’ll sell it for roughly what you bought it.
Ignore direct costs. Yes, fuel is $6/gal, but a) you should buy a 6 gal/hr airplane, and b) you won’t fly more than 150 hours per year. Fuel will be a tiny fraction of your annual budget. Yes, the engine overhaul will be $30K or more, but engines last 2000 hours, so $15/hr. Again, you won’t fly enough in a year for that to be significant.
If, and only if, you buy a simple, cheap two-seater. The minute you start moving up the range, the costs go up.
I speak as the owner of a 6,000 lb, 600 HP twin made in the 1960s, based in an area with very high real estate costs. My fixed costs, before I fly a single hour, are $50K/year, most of which is the hangar. It burns 30 GPH total, and each engine costs $70K to overhaul, but I don’t fly enough for that to outweigh the fixed costs. It makes zero sense, and it a completely emotional decision. I own it because I love owning it.
hxk1@reddit
Black tar heroin might be a cheaper addiction.
f182@reddit
Suppose it about perspective and how much money you have. Had a 182 in the uk and your looking at £20k per year to fly it often and keep it hangared and just pray nothing serious goes wrong in between.
PilotBurner44@reddit
No, it's just a big conspiracy to keep people from buying airplanes. Why would everyone be lying about it.
shittyvfxartist@reddit
I’m in the same boat as the Sonex pilot. Own an EAB Rans S-19 and got the LSRM cert and updated op lims. Insurance is $1.8k a year, tie down $30/month, condition inspection is almost free since I do it myself. Owner assisted? $1000 typically.
If you’re just looking to train and enjoy local flying, it can be done kind of affordably. If your mission starts involving 4 seats, FIKI, and covering distance fast…you’ll have to shell out the big bucks for that.
SSMDive@reddit
Budget about 20k a year if you pay cash for the plane for operating expenses, insurance, and MX for a simple plane that you do owner assisted annuals in a reasonable cost of living area (RCOLA)
And this depends on WHERE you live as well. Live in a (high) HCOLA like Southern CA and it is going to much more expensive than if you live in Corinth, MS for example.
But my average expense for a single plane is about 20k a year.
You can get by with less… For example live in Corinth, MS and own an experimental light sport like a Quad City Challenger. But live in LA and own a Cirrus and 20k will not touch it.
The best deal is a partnership with 3, maybe 4 people.
Pa24-180@reddit
Even if you’re very careful, it can turn very expensive without any warning.. for example: flying around in your 150, sipping gas, insurance and hanger cheap, got a buddy doing owner assist annuals.. the plane senses your happiness…. Decides to eat a mag gear and quickly turns that into an overhaul.. 20k and maybe six months…
Fun_Job_3633@reddit
You know what they say about owning an airplane...
Sell it to someone who doesn't know what they say about owning an airplane.
Infamous-Ad-140@reddit
What’s expensive to you? At minimum, even if you own an hanger and don’t fly it’s likely a baseline of $5-6k a year for insurance and an annual on any aircraft. A surprise engine overhaul or replacement probably starts at 20-25k.
Cheaper than a superyacht, more expensive than a car
xia03@reddit
past year i spent 800 on tires, 3k hangar, 1300 insurance, 500 or so on avionics/efb subscriptions, 200-250 on oil changes (3 times a year), another 100 oil analysis. then add 50/hr fuel burn, a few hundred misc parts and tools. inspections are free (DIY). I stay well below my budget of 20k for everything. if you can’t afford up to 20k in discretionary spending then owning is not for you
barkingcat@reddit
Yes.
ronniebabes@reddit
Makes joining a flying club look cheap
Julian-Jurkoic@reddit
It doesn't have to be, especially if you go E/AB and generally are more interested in local flying than an XC machine (this is where the price skyrockets).
Lots of cheap expirementals out there, and you can do your own maintenance and annual inspection, I recommend popping by some of your local EAA chapter meetings. Rans are affordable, zeniths, sonex, lots of stranger stuff, tons of cub clones, etc. If you're dead set on not doing experimental Taylorcraft, cubs (less so), c150s, ercoupes...
I personally have a sonex that costs $1000 a year to insure, 30$/month to tie down, 0$ for annual since I do it myself, 30$/h variable including fuel and engine reserve. Really not crazy unaffordable if you make decent money and don't blow it all on a stupid expensive car (payment, insurance, etc) Drive an old Corolla instead of a new Audi and you can easily afford an airplane.
Maybe not a g1000 Bonanza, but if you want to fly, you can make it happen. Hell look at that Lonnie Bordelon guy on Instagram, he's not dropping much on that setup.
400Volts@reddit
However much you think it costs, it's more
m5er@reddit
My Skylane insurance is just over $3k for a $400k hull value.
The base fee for annuals (hours x rate) is around $3,600. But countless other things always boost that to $5k or more. This year it was expired fire extinguisher. Past years it was oxygen bottle testing and then later replacement; turbo wastegate fix; nose strut adjustment, etc. My all-time favorite: Replacement of expired Amsafe inflatable seat belt cannisters -- $7,000. The plane is under 400 hours -- can't wait for some really juicy stuff to need replacement e.g., engine, prop, avionics etc.
InternalFast5066@reddit
God, yes.
dumbassretail@reddit
More, actually.
QuietGarlic7788@reddit
As some wise guy once said: if it flies or floats, rent it!
Skiddledew@reddit
Just buy a boat! You'll save money!
Worldx22@reddit
I'm on my second one. I paid $50k for it. Hangar is $400, annual will be $1,500. Insurance $1,200 a year. I do my own maintenance under the watchful eye of an A&P I've known for a long time. Soon I'll be able to sign off my own work after I get my A&P cert.
It's expensive in a traditional sense but it gets cheaper if you work to make it cheaper. As for an engine overhaul I'm not worried about that either. I'll be able to sign that off myself and have enough connections to be guided through it when the need arises. It's only as expensive as you make it.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Define expensive
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
What's your definition of "really really expensive?"
WelderNo4099@reddit
3rd part - unplanned repairs.
4th - storage/parking/hangar fees.
5th - landing fees.
6th - avionics envy.
7th - other plane envy.
I could go on.
Yes, it’s expensive.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Yes. I'm an A&P and did my own maintenance but it was still damn expensive.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I've seen many topics discussing that purchasing the plane is one part, Insurance and annual checkups is the hard part, is it really really expensive?
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