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North American A-36 Apache. The dive bomber mustang with dive brakes and nose guns

Posted by MightyOGS@reddit | WeirdWings | View on Reddit | 47 comments

When North American started making the P-51a for the RAF, the USAAF thought it was a good design and should stay in production. The issue was that there were no more funds available for fighters in fiscal year 1942, but there were funds for attack aircraft, so the A-36 was born.

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47 Comments

Epstiendidntkillself@reddit

Thinking about how to Sync two 50's to a 3 bladed propeller makes my mind hurt.
View on Reddit #87257662

TheBluestWaffle42069@reddit

Timing lobes on a cam shaft. basically the trigger gets depressed only when the propeller isn't in front of the gun. They're not a very complicated mechanism, and they need to be that way so that they were as reliable as possible.
View on Reddit #87818545

MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

Apparently the fire rate of the guns was significantly cut, but the P-39 also had them firing through a 3 blade prop driven by a V-1710. The P-39 was also very expensive though
View on Reddit #87308643

Insert_clever@reddit

It was still called the Mustang. “Apache” or “Invader” were potential marketing names that never came to fruition.
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MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

True. Apache is a helpful name to distinguish it from the others, and I like it. Apparently the Germans called them "Screaming Helldivers"
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dharms@reddit

> Apparently the Germans called them "Screaming Helldivers" I doubt it. Things like that are usually invented for morale raising purposes.
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Raguleader@reddit

See also, the Marine claim that the Germans called them "Devil Dogs."
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MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

I forgot about that... You make a good point.
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Strega007@reddit

It was still called "Mustang", even though NAA floated the "Apache" moniker.
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iceguy349@reddit

If I’m not mistaken changes to the wing spars and reinforcements made to the structure migrated to the base mustangs right? I know the D models could lift a very solid bomb load
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palehoverbyte@reddit

you got it. the dive brake stress tests and load requirements on the a-36 essentially forced north american to beef up the wing structure. that evolved right into the hardpoints and internal reinforcements seen on later models like the d. turned out the airframe could take a lot more abuse than they originally thought.
View on Reddit #87347133

BornDance3399@reddit

Yeah, the P-51A was developed from the A-36 but had the dive brakes and machine guns under the engine removed.
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MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

Aa far as I can tell, the P-51A came first, and was developed into the B/C with very few modifications aside from the redesigned nose. The A-36 seems to be more of a spin off which was born to keep some kind of mustang in production in 1942 after the RAAF aircraft were (mostly) delivered. The A-36 design is also nothing like what I'd expect to see if the design started life as a ground attack aircraft, and is more what I'd expect of a fighter that had been redesigned into a strike aircraft, much like the Blackburn Firebrand
View on Reddit #87256624

BornDance3399@reddit

The A-36 first flew in September 1942 The P-51A didn't fly until February 1943 Also NAA called the A-36 the NA-97 and the P-51A was the NA-99
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MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

I stand corrected then. Where'd you learn this stuff? I'd like to learn more
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OhioTry@reddit

[Mustang : The Untold Story](https://www.amazon.com/Mustang-Untold-Story-Matthew-Willis/dp/1913295885) is a book all about the Allison engine variants of the Mustang.
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iceguy349@reddit

I think that’s off the UK ordered the P-51 and the A-36 was a failed offshoot last I’d checked.
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BornDance3399@reddit

A-36 was not a failed off shoot. North American Aviation wanted the USAAF to accept a fighter contract for the Mustang. The USAAF had already taken a batch of Mustang Mk.1A's originally destined for the British under lend lease and kept them for themselves. The USAAF however had no funds for a fighter contract, but they did have funds for an attacker contract. To keep production ongoing, NAA made the changes to the NA-83 and this became the A-36, the first Mustang produced for American service. They proved incredibly effective in North Africa and Mediterranean as both a close air support and fighter aircraft. In Siciliy, A-36 pilots made a petition to officially give it the "Invader" name because it was "so good at invading the enemy) but this was rejected. Michael Russo became the first Mustang ace using the A-36 and the only ace with an Allison engine Mustang. Afterwards, it was sent to the Burma theatre where it really suffered. The Allison engine obviously wasn't suited for high altitude combat and A-36's were easily slimed by Ki-43's over the Himalayas. After this, it had been mostly replaced by better Mustang variants and that was the end of its combat service.
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BigFreakingZombie@reddit

Define "failed" . I mean it could lift a decent load of ordnance and deliver it with good enough accuracy. The problem was that it was forced to operate in areas that it wasn't designed for ( the high altitudes in the CBI theater further cut the Allison's already modest performance) and that down low and loaded with bombs it was easy prey for marauding fighters.
View on Reddit #87268576

Imprezzed@reddit

Pretty sure the D’s was 2x500lb, or rockets.
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MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

Honestly, I'm not sure. The wing of the P-51a and P-51b/c are pretty much identical externally, but I'm not sure about the internal reinforcements. I'll have to look into it
View on Reddit #87251532

CaptainA1917@reddit

There’s not much info available about their actual use in combat. Some features like the cowl guns were clearly leftovers from erroneous thinking of the 30s. Specifically, the Browning M2 performed poorly as a synchronized gun, losing basically half its ROF when it had to fire through a propeller arc. I find this design feature to be an interesting anachronism because that was already well known by 1942 and why cowl .50 guns went away on all US fighters.
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dharms@reddit

> Some features like the cowl guns were clearly leftovers from erroneous thinking of the 30s. Specifically, the Browning M2 performed poorly as a synchronized gun, losing basically half its ROF when it had to fire through a propeller arc. That's a generalization. Cowl guns were favored by many countries for accuracy reasons and most guns were designed to be synchronized. The main drawbacks were the muzzle flash and windscreen fouling.
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CaptainA1917@reddit

Please re-read what I posted. “ SPECIFICALLY, the Browning M2 performed poorly as a synchronized gun…”
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dharms@reddit

I did read it, but it contradicts the first part unless you mean AN/M2 instead of the .50 M2.
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CaptainA1917@reddit

Dude seriously? THE A36 HAD TWO .50 (FIFTY CALIBER) COWL GUNS. NOT THIRTY CALIBER. FIFTY CALIBER. THE FIFTY CALIBER PERFORMED POORLY AS A SYNCHRONIZED GUN.
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dharms@reddit

What then was the erroneous thinking of the 30's? I'm not trying to be combative here, no need to yell.
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CaptainA1917@reddit

I just can’t see how you can keep misunderstanding what I very plainly said. The erroneous thinking is that US designers continued to use the .50 as a cowl gun. Several US fighters of the 1930s used either one .30 Browning and one .50 Browning, or two .50 Brownings. This continued into WW2 with the early models of first-line fighters. As I said, synchronization cut the fire rate in half on the .50. Meaning if you installed one cowl .50, you had half the firepower of a wing-mounted .50. If you installed two cowl .50s, you effectively had one .50 for the weight of two. It should have been obvious the first time that was tried that the .50 doesn’t work well as a synchronized gun, yet US designers kept doing it. Worse, they kept doing it well into WW2 where it was no longer just an academic concern. Additionally, you can reasonably question the general idea of the cowl gun in the WW2 context. Cowl guns were a holdover from WW1 where they were the primary armament. In WW2 they almost universally became “secondary armament” for fighters which also carried more effective autocannon armament. This idea also can be criticized for several reasons. \-“Concentrated firepower” is a valid argument when applied to effective guns like the P-38 (4x50s and 1x20mm) or the Me-262(4x30mms) but is a specious argument when applied to cowl-mounted rifle caliber machine guns in the WW2 context. Even the British, who tried 8-gun RCMG (all free-firing in the wings) understood pretty quickly that the day of RCMG armament was over. \-most (not all) cowl guns were RCMG and basically ineffective (or very marginally effective) against WW2 fighters. Thus a good argument can be made that they should have been deleted and the weight used elsewhere or put back into performance. \-Cowl guns were arguably to be used for sighting purposes for the primary autocannon, but frequently they had significantly different trajectories making this idea ineffective. \-Speaking from a design perspective, it was never realistically possible to cowl mount enough of the main armament, in an effective caliber, to realize the benefits of “concentrated firepower” in the way that various twin engine aircraft could with a completely available nose section. For example, the best the Me-109 could do was the engine-mounted 20 or 30mm, plus two 15mm HMGs. You just couldn’t cram four HMGs, the engine, and the Autocannon into the nose of a reasonably sized fighter.
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hongooi@reddit

Didn't the P-40 also have .50s firing through the propeller arc?
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CaptainA1917@reddit

The early models did. The P-39 also had .50 cowl guns.
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dharms@reddit

They did until the D model.
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HughJorgens@reddit

These things were sent to Burma and were so OP that they eventually wound up dragging hooks on wires to tear down telegraph lines, just to have something to do.
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ychoopystight@reddit

dive bombing is just flying with confidence right
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Disastrous_Cat3912@reddit

Those inner wheelwell doors shouldn't be open on any Allison engined Mustang unless the ground crew manually opened them for maintenance. I suspect this plane is cobbled together from parts of different Mustangs, including a Merlin engined example.
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CocoSavege@reddit

This is potentially a dumb question. Would it have been feasible to mount a forward gun where idea is the gun fires tracer rounds, to help aim the bomb? I'm skeptical because of windage, angle of dive, drag, if your target is moving, so a half assed "solution" isn't helping, it's making things worse by being some combo of not actually helping aim, being too complicated to employ properly and using up pilot attention when pilot is very busy
View on Reddit #87254262

MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

I think the Hawker Hurricane Mk.IId kept a pair of .303 guns which only fired tracer rounds to act as targeting guns for the much larger 40mm cannons. I do know that pilots of planes such as the Typhoon also used to start a gun burst and "walk" their rounds onto target, which was a tactic they found didn't work well when they switched to rockets for ground attack. Ballistic matching of guns is pretty difficult, and is why aircraft such as the fw190 with mostly centreline guns had to adjust each gun's elevation separately to make sure the rounds converged vertically at the desired range
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Psycle_Panda@reddit

Yeah, ballistic matching is the tricky bit. In the Korean War there was a 105 or 106 mm recoilless rifle paired with a .50 cal on top for sighting, specifically because the ballistics matched so well.
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FrozenSeas@reddit

Spotting rifles are a pretty common feature on recoilless guns even now. The M27 used in Korea was something of a failure and from what I can tell didn't have one, but the 106mm M40 that replaced it had a semiauto spotting gun using a [trajectory-matched 12.7x76mm round](https://municion.org/producto/50-u-s-spotter-tracer-m48a1-bat/), tracer with an explosive filler to make the impact point visible. The SMAW has a similar thing but in 9x51mm. ...and I just learned they made a 20mm fin-stabilized training/spotter for the M27/M28 Davy Crockett nuke-thrower, which is going on my list of extremely obscure things I want.
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Cthell@reddit

>...and I just learned they made a 20mm fin-stabilized training/spotter for the M27/M28 Davy Crockett nuke-thrower, which is going on my list of extremely obscure things I want. Might be difficult, because the round was made of depleted uranium
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kombatminipig@reddit

Which was one of the issues with the Mig-15 after all. Two excellent guns and a sight that was true for neither of them.
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Xivios@reddit

I've heard (possibly apocryphal) stories of Sabre pilots claiming to see cannon rounds from a MiG-15 pass overhead and underneath their aircraft at the same time, without receiving any hits in the process.
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MightyOGS@reddit (OP)

I'd be prepared to believe it, considering just how mismatched the ballistics of the MiG 15 were. If the range was well beyond the convergence range, then you'd definitely have a very significant separation of the rounds
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ForeignBlacksmith644@reddit

I play it in war thunder and I just add 2 gunpods and fire away, it's fun shredding bombers but anything remotely manueverable can kill you easily
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EyeofEnder@reddit

Honestly, the best thing to do in that plane is to try to lure people into head-ons (but never go full commit). A hail of .50 APIT from ~1 km out is really effective at sniping pilots, or failing that, setting engines on fire.
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waldo--pepper@reddit

And a second landing light on the port wing. Kind of a useful tell to ID one of these, when the feature is visible of course.
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waldo--pepper@reddit

And a second/extra landing light on the port wing. I find that a helpful tell to recognize one of these, when the port wing is visible of course.
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BornDance3399@reddit

The Apache isn't its real name. It's a Mustang like the rest, the first Mustang made for American service even. Apache was the name originally planned for the P-51 but they changed to Mustang long before the A-36 existed. Invader was a name suggested by its pilots but the name was already reserved for the A-26.
View on Reddit #87251891