What's your take on nationalism in the Balkans?

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Esdoorn-Acer@reddit

In Slovenia is non existent because it isn’t Balkan

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SmartFlyNR1@reddit

Why is Slovenia on the map? Slovenia is not Balkan! It never was.

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Maleficent_Slice1042@reddit

Way too crazy and fanatic, plus it dustracts us from the real issues

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PickaLiTiMaterina@reddit

It’s disgusting. Nationalism is coupled with religion & ethnicity and spiced up with fake histories…

So sad to see the same thing happen in countries that were free from this tumor :(

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Salt_Young_4494@reddit

If you take a look at montenegro, kosovo and Albania, and combine those, it looks like dikenbaus pointed downwards.

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Sharp-Membership-633@reddit

Very destructive. Most people have no clue about their own history due to the selective teaching and interpretation of history.

The Pavelic post is a good example it was full of pseudo claims and narratives. Nobody bothered to even list any evidence for their claims it was just “my baba said it”.

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shqipshqippp@reddit

nationalism as in caring for your nation’s wellbeing and self-prosperity through small acts: ✅

nationalism as in chauvinistic chest-beating on instagram while doing nothing to fix your nation’s fundamental problems: ❌

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TheReal_Elite@reddit

Nationalism as in caring for your nation’s wellbeing and self-prosperity through small acts

That right there is patriotism, not nationalism.

Patriotism - Loving your country and caring for its success in anyway possible

Nationalism - Thinking that your country and culture is superior to other nations, which creates hostility, xenophobia, etc.

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Inner_Variety2826@reddit

*nationalism as in caring for your nation's wellbeing and self-prosperity through small acts:

I think the term *patriotism describes this better

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I think it's a stupid idea that 'nationalism' is worse in Balkans than anyone else. When Britain goes to war over a small scrap of islands in the middle of nowhere, that's not nationalism. When America bombs a sovereign country under the mere suspicion it might be making nuclear weapons, that's not nationalism.

When Serbs watch the country they lived it break up and resist being forced into hostile polities against their will, THAT allegedly is 'nationalism'! When Serbs object to their churches destroyed or confiscated that's nationalism. When Serbs defend international law and counter illegal secession of their country, that's nationalism. When Serbs resist the imposition of a self-proclaimed 'Republic of Kosovo' which they never consented to, that's nationalism.

It seems only Western countries are allowed to have legitimate national interests. The national interests of every other country depend on the goodwill of these Western powers, and if there is none, then their interests are proclaimed to be 'nationalism.'

Even worse, there is no shortage of sycophants in the Balkans willing to debase themselves and their countries by eagerly propagating this narrative of these Western powers they so much adulate.

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Fine-Ear-8103@reddit

A nationalist has hate in his heart a patriot has nothing but love in his heart we need more patriots n less nationalists.

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avitoxol@reddit

its stupid makes people hate other people

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erionei@reddit

The average nationalist will wave the flag of their home country and throw trash out on the street 10 minutes later. Their brother who’s a policeman will happily take a bribe and they’ll both be happy vote on their favorite corrupt leader next election.

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iwantpizzaandyou@reddit

I think it is just a scar from history (in Yugoslavia‘s case also very recent history) that will just take time to heal.

We all liberated ourselves from the Ottoman Empire on the ideology first seen in the French Revolution - that a nation has the same continuous experience of language, religion, traditions and deserves its own democratic self-rule and its own sovereign territory, and anyone not belonging to the nation is a leech on society. The extreme of this national ideology is what history has seen happen in Nazi Germany. The point with the territory in particular was not compatible with the reality of the Balkans. Different ethnicities here have always lived among each other. For instance, Thessaloniki was always mostly Greek, but until its liberation always had sizeable minorities of other ethnicities. Before that, it used to often be under the rule of the Bulgarian empire instead of the Byzantines. And this is just one city we are talking about. The liberation under nationalist ideology forced ethnicities to draw defined borders, caused traumatic exchanges of people between countries, and led to the catastrophic Balkan wars where each country was fighting for more territory.

I think, slowly, nationalism in the Balkans is becoming more healthy and we will get over this in a generation or two. It is already much better: Greeks and Bulgarians may fight online about some history and stuff, but we are definitely not attacking each other on sight on the street or having wars anymore, it is the exact opposite.

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TheReal_Elite@reddit

A fucking cancer cell to the Balkan Peninsula that will just not go away even with chemotherapy.

The amount of Balkan nationalists praising war criminals, yelling genocidal chants, and the minimizing or denying the genocides that have taken place in this region I’ve seen online is so horrible that I am just so fucking SICK of it!

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heatseaking_rock@reddit

Amen, brother!

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Deep-Ad4183@reddit

Perhaps this is the perspective of the one who was most favored—and who committed the worst acts of all? We must acknowledge these things and address them honestly so that they are not repeated. This does not mean that you should harbor hatred toward people

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tinmanjk@reddit

immune system of a nation state

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stalinenjoyer38@reddit

Patriotism-absolutely, nationalism-cancer

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alkorisno@reddit

Anti imperialism from the west is good, but the ideas that people are somehow significantly different in other countries is stupid

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Cefalopodul@reddit

Without nationalism most of the Balkans would be speaking Turkish or German.

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brknkry@reddit (OP)

I disagree. The irony is, right now, thousands of young people across the Balkans are voluntarily learning German and leaving their countries because of the economic stagnation caused by decades of corrupt, nationalistic politics. It’s not the lack of nationalism that’s making people speak German today; it’s the lack of a future.

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Cefalopodul@reddit

In Romania it's because of corrupt social democrat, and generally corrupt ex communist, politics.

We don't have any nationalist politicians. Those that claim to be are actually anti-EU because the EU won't let them steal and plunder like in the 90s.

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MartinBP@reddit

Ours left because of decades of corrupt socialist politics, so the problem might go a bit deeper.

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Critical-Ad-8507@reddit

The corrupt ones are just PRETENDING to be nationalists for votes.

Meanwhile western countries are socially falling apart because their citizens aren't nationalist enought.

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mpampistheplumber69@reddit

Thats a common misconception. In Greece I hear it a lot as well. Nazism and the Ottoman Empire wasn’t overthrown by the nations themselves only. Many foreign elements made that happen too. Diplomacy was involved, foreign countries and interests.

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Cefalopodul@reddit

I was reffering to surviving the occupation by the Ottomans and Austrians with your culture more or less intact, not overthrowing the nazis. Nazis have nothing to do with it.

A strong national identity is the only reason assimilation was limited, and this is despite both the Ottomans and the Austrians trying really hard starting with the 18th century.

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uoguner@reddit

German, maybe Turkish, nope. Balkans didn't spoke turkish in 500 years except ethnic turks.

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LibertyChecked28@reddit

The only way to obtain something as basic as info on how much you had been taxed for this month by from the Ottoman Empire was by speaking Turkish. If you didn't know Turkish you couldn't interact with the Ottomans, and those who didn't interact with the Ottomans ware deemed a cattle.

People didn't know Turkish because there wasnt anything to taught them, not because ″Muh Balkan nAtIoNaLisM″ had deliberately prevented them from doing so.

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treba_dzemper@reddit

This certainly didn't seem to be the case in Bosnia, as everything written from that period suggests that even the urban merchant class of millet Turks (which is essentially modern day Bosniaks as very few ethnic Turks lived here) used the local Slavic vernacular in day to day use, spiking it with Turkish loan words only where it lacked a local one and even those words were twisted into pretty slavicized local Turkish dialect (thus "kitab" became "ćitaba" which is funny because it accidentally landed on similar etymology to its semitic origin, "kebap" became "ćevap", and "bayramiliz mubarek olsun" became "bajram mubareć ola" etc).

This suggests that Turkish and German was really only used to communicate upwards to more central government levels and as an internal lingo of the administration, whereas the local Shtokavian vernacular as recorded by fra Matija Divković was the lingua franca of the region as much as its Neoshtokavian descendant is nowadays.

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Cefalopodul@reddit

Because of nationalism.

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phariom@reddit

Nationalism as a concept is like just over 200 years old. Ironically, it is nationalism that made people speak languages they don't belong to through assimilation.

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uoguner@reddit

Looks like nationalism only existed in balkans between 14th and 19th century.

Too bad that poles didn't heard about it during the Ostsiedlung.

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Critical-Ad-8507@reddit

How difficult can it be to prioritize your own country without actively hating on other countries?

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Inner_Variety2826@reddit

From the looks of it......very 😕

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FoxFort@reddit

It completes us <3

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BurgurluGenc031@reddit

most of nationalist people are actually fanatic patriotist calling themselves nationalist. Humanity does not know line between loving something and being fanatic of it. Know ur nation,have a respect for it. Not just ur nationsbut others too even u dont like it. Thats what makes u better.

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Inner_Variety2826@reddit

Patriotism ≠ Nationalism Those to terms although they seem similar from afar they have very different core values and have a very different outcome. I understand and respect if you're a passionate patriot that wants to give back at your country to help make it a better place, patriotism usually deals with domestic issues, policies. Nationalism on the other hand (especially in the latest years) is the blind "love" on ones nation and it's superiority over others, it won't tackle inner state issues or even if it does it will swift the blame on foreign factors.

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mpampistheplumber69@reddit

Nationalism sucks in every country. It only keeps us divided and nothing more. No country ever became better because of arrogance and no nation ever became likable from bragging about themselves.

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crivycouriac@reddit

Stupid and most importantly unjustified

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canyoubelieveitt@reddit

Needed so the heritage could survive throughout Ottoman occupation and then communist erasing policy. Its what kept us alive as people. I also think nationalism in Balkans, at least here, is mostly healthy. Its not like the average Bulgarian has wet dreams about territory expansion, we just want to be proud of our history and thats it.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit

It's necessary, but there has to be a middle ground, because excessive nationalism makes people blind and prevents real progress from reaching its full potential. I mainly see it as a smokescreen.

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EbbPlane1749@reddit

you are roma what can opinion can you possibly have? you identify with whatever country you feel like

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit

I will always be a Roma from Kosovo, even if I change countries or burn my passport.

My cultural and ethnic identity is tied to Kosovo.

Where does my Ottoman influence come from? Why does my Romani dialect contain Albanian and Serbian structures and derivations?

Where did tallava originate, and within which ethnic group did it emerge?

And precisely, I have a Balkan perspective with a certain global awareness that you cannot have, due to a detachment driven by marginalization across several generations.

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Commercial_Law_1689@reddit

Yep. 100% it is another opiate for the masses. When people lack any personal merits to feel good about themselves they use nationalism to ascribe a collective greatness upon themselves. We can see examples of this especially in societies where economics and wealth inequality has grown and the middle class shrinks.

As an example look at the extreme rise of Nationalism and right wing politics in the west alongside the downfall of the middle class and loss of purchasing power.

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit

As an example look at the extreme rise of Nationalism and right wing politics in the west alongside the downfall of the middle class and loss of purchasing power.

The Balkans work a bit like this because, in the end, we are all human and these mechanisms exist everywhere.

However, in this region, everyone seems to hold a certain resentment toward their neighbor; even the smallest minorities sometimes develop rivalries with other minorities within the same nation.
This resentment does not come from a complete difference, but rather from an identity threat: “You resemble me in some ways, but you are not like me, you are a threat to my identity.” This is where chauvinism partly takes root, which prevents a balanced form of nationalism.

But obviously, if that was the only issue, things would be better; there are also the wounds of the past, inherited from wars and segregation.
Few regions in Western Europe have ethnic dynamics where the level of resentment is comparable to that of the Balkans.

When people lack any personal merits to feel good about themselves they use nationalism to ascribe a collective greatness upon themselves.

And of course, this is a boon for those who govern us; they can use it to justify their mediocrity and preserve their power.

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Lord_Gobbledygook@reddit

However, in this region, everyone seems to hold a certain resentment toward their neighbor

Quite literally. We hate the neighbouring village, who's gonna stop us from hating the Albanians/Bosniacs/Turks/Greeks/you name it?

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Commercial_Law_1689@reddit

Indeed they do. Do you need to change the headlines? Talk shit on a neighbor drum up new headlines. And whilst it is true that balkans have a specifically intense history of ethnic/religious conflicts these things seem to intensify particularly in times of political/economic instability.

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

Balance in everything is good, but we cant strike a balance unfortunately lol

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No-Narwhal-60@reddit

Fake patriots who could not care less about their country and countryman. Real patriotism is almost dead in the balkans, replaced by nationalism and self hate

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Emyhatsich@reddit

Lol, no balkan nationalism compares to hungarian nationalism.

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Proof-Ad62@reddit

It's fine to be proud of the place you were born. It's in our human DNA to love our environment.

Just don't go picking up arms and fighting people for it. Sadly, it's often other people that force / manipulate men to do this.

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RealShabanella@reddit

Nationalism: I have a small dick

Patriotism: good and healthy if you're a country being invaded, otherwise not different from nationalism

Loving one's country: good ✓

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Last-Giraffe846@reddit

Maybe they could use their nationalism to do something useful like overthrowing their corrupt governments instead of drinking and stealing

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PhastasFlames@reddit

Nationalism is necessary because we shouldn’t have Abdullah from Pakistan emigrating on a work visa and stealing jobs intended for 16 year olds. Internationalism is good if it’s equally balanced with nationalism, otherwise you’ll have infections coming to your country and destroying it while claiming you’re discriminating them.

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

LOL

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Sekalino@reddit

My take is there is nothing wrong with loving your country and people. It becomes a problem tho when you start thinking that your country and people are better than others.

And I feel like subconsciously without noticing a lot of people do think their country is better. It gets especially problematic when people get to a point where they become completely incapable of seeing any wrong with themselves/their faction and everything bad is always the others fault.

Like for example a lot of my countrymen will still deny the Armenian genocide even tho there is a mountain of evidence and our best argument is to hide behind semantics. In the minds of a lot of Turks we are being framed or the Armenians deserved it because they did sth to us first or somesuch.

It’s pathetic when the Israelis do it to justify their genocide and it’s pathetic when we do it.

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brknkry@reddit (OP)

You know what I agree with you. I am suprised actually. Not so many people think like us in Turkey about Armenian Genocide

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Sekalino@reddit

Oh yeah tell me about it. I’m already expecting angry Turks calling me a traitor.

In my view I’m of course not a traitor. I honestly love our people we really are awesome (most of us) like it fills me with so much pride when I hear foreigners swoon over Istanbul cats for example or the story of Ayla and Süleyman. For those who don’t know Süleyman was a Turkish soldier who fought in the Korean War and found an orphaned child. He took the kid under his wing and pretty much raised her like his own daughter. Sadly he wasn’t allowed to bring her back with him so they lost contact but found each other again 50 years later! The meeting was filmed and is on YouTube and there is also a movie called "Ayla daughter of war”. Ngl the story of this one soldier taking care of a child in the midst of a war filled me with more pride than any military victory ever could.

I believe we are good people (for the most part) and that it’s a real shame a lot of us can’t acknowledge our people’s past mistakes.

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Commercial_Law_1689@reddit

I'm an angry turk and as you know. You tell the truth and seven villages and all that jazz. I am quite angry about a lot of things but i appreciate you saying this.

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Sekalino@reddit

Thank you kindly sir!

Like I said, good people.

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0a_boy0@reddit

Nationalism isn’t a bad thing. If you love your country, culture and if you want to glorify them then that means you are a nationalist. It doesn’t mean that you need to hate other countries. Because our hate for each other just works for the sake of big countries. Like USA, Russia. Or you can say colonizers.

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

Agree, I think the issues come from the ones that cant both love their own country without shitting on other ones constantly, or think in such extremes that any deviation of thought from only promoting your own country is seen as a crime worse than the holocaust haha

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Commercial_Law_1689@reddit

Yeah, there is a fine line between moderate civic nationalism and ethno nationalism.

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

Yeah thats why I said 'those ones' lol, that go over the top

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Commercial_Law_1689@reddit

One should take pride in the good things ones own country and people did instead of puffing themselves up by their ability to destroy and hurt. I'm a lot more proud of Turkey having provided with food aid during the great famine in WW2 to Greece. (Even if the quantity was not consequential to alleviate the suffering) or how the 1999 earthquakes that happened in Gölcuk and then Athens saw both countries rush to each others aid wholeheartedly compared to my pride in any military accomplishments of my Nation.

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

Yes 100% agree

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brknkry@reddit (OP)

I am not against that but toxic hating stuff is wrong I believe

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

Yeah thats over the top 100%, zero chill lol

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Double-Aide-6711@reddit

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klepht_x@reddit

A poison that has killed and displaced so many people throughout the Balkans. Communities had lived amongst each other (not always peacefully, but often with some tolerance) for hundreds of years, if not a thousand, and they were violently expelled. Places that had seen these people live, grow, and peacefully pass on then saw them murdered and forcibly expelled because people felt that their Greater [Nation] needed a Pure Homeland that they though was polluted by people who had lived among and intermingled with each other. Symrna and Constantinople lost Greek communities that had been there for thousands of years, Thessaloniki lost Bulgarian and Turkish communities that had been there for centuries, the former Yugoslav republics shed so much blood for peoples who are as close as brothers, and yet more atrocity I am less familiar with.

And what did it do for the Balkans? How many rifts still exist? How much poverty and corruption is around? Did all the wars, all the genocides, all the violence and hate accomplish anything worth the cost?

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brknkry@reddit (OP)

I definetly agree with you

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YourNormaMinecrafter@reddit

It is what has kept the people alive..

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Dazzling-Meringue810@reddit

It’s what’s killed us as well

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

Also impedes progress because too much focus on their neighbours being a threat 247, when in reality neighbours are scratching their asses and thinking about whats for lunch

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Dazzling-Meringue810@reddit

I’m in Toronto. Came at a younger age during the war from Sarajevo.

I see the diaspora is even more nationalistic than people back home. We’re just lost souls trying to cosplay as Balkan in order to find meaning and identity in other nations.

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Beautiful-Walk48@reddit

I didnt get more nationalistic or my family, but I do know what you mean with some people. I feel like theres a lot that (in more recent 15 years) who have moved away and purposefully made sure their kids dont learn language and just know what their background is on paper due to being so over the dramas. I was taught language and holidays etc and culture from where we were from but no was enthusiastically hating which was good.

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brknkry@reddit (OP)

I agree

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Burekzengija@reddit

Not real nationalism, it's all based on chauvinism.