Pininfarina released what *should* have been the Ferrari EV four years ago
Posted by just_dave@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 156 comments
https://youtu.be/ZfnFL-wp-dg?si=qeObZdCFW_uqK_DO
How does Ferrari's head designer have a job? It's hard to outdo modern BMW for terrible design choices, but Flavio Manzoni is giving it his best shot. He is a car design terrorist and needs to be fired. Preferably out of a cannon.
Splitting with Pininfarina and bringing car design fully in-house will go down as one of the worst decisions that Ferrari has ever made.
TrainingGrape540@reddit
Man it’s crazy how Ferrari just went downhill after separating from Pininfarina
Dachshand@reddit
Modern BMWs sell great and most of them look totally fine.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Flavio Manzoni is the lead designer for Ferrari. He creates the design briefs and approves the final design. He is on record saying that he doesn't like anthropomorphic car designs that make people think the car has a face. That is why modern Ferraris have those ugly black bars across the front breaking up the cohesiveness of the design. Same thing for the front of the Luce. The face of a car is the soul of a car. Manzoni is killing Ferraris soul.
BMWs sell well because there are more and more car buyers around the world every year. Most of the people buying them aren't buying them for the styling. The majority of people that do care about the styling tend to agree that BMW has made some big mistakes with the styling of the front of the car.
Dachshand@reddit
Only very few BMW Models have ugly front ends like the iX, 4 Series and M3/4.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I'll take the looks of the 812 over the 12C every day. The 812 is slightly generic for Ferrari, but it doesn't have that ridiculous black bar across the front.
The Roma looks great in person. I'd love a Roma with the Luce interior.
Forgot about the new testarossa. It could be cool but it's got a chin that only a Leno could love.
Dachshand@reddit
I saw my first TR in red yesterday and it looked pretty great on the road. Certainly much better and more special than the SF90!
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I'll reserve final judgement on the TR until I see it in the flesh then.
Dachshand@reddit
I configured one in dark green with silver classic style wheels and a racing stripe and it looks stunning. I absolutely hated it first „, on pictures and those tacky Kia style wheels they choose to reveal their cars with, lately, don’t help.
Stampedex2@reddit
I must be in the unpopular group for this but the 812 doesn't look very good to me
The 12c is a much prettier car
Dachshand@reddit
The 812 was a less well proportioned F12. The 12C can hold its own.
Dachshand@reddit
Saw my first TR in red yesterday. Looked pretty great on the road.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
The 12c is less controversial, but the original Daytona also never really did it for me either. I won't fault anybody for liking the 12c.
daBomb26@reddit
Now you’re just lying and misquoting the designer. He has never said he doesn’t like anthropomorphic designs.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
“It is a characteristic feature of our new models”, explains Manzoni. “We wanted to avoid the typical anthropomorphic effect whereby the headlights look like eyes, the grille like a mouth. The effect is perhaps less romantic but more sophisticated and the result is more modern, futuristic and simple”
Am I misquoting?
daBomb26@reddit
Perfect, you proved my point. He didn’t say he didn’t like it. He said they’re moving away from an organic “anthropomorphic effect” to something more modern and futuristic. The LaFerrari was the most organic design in Ferrari’s history, so much so that some journalists said it looked like an alien insect. The F80 looks more like a robot or a spaceship. It won’t be everyone’s cup of tea but it’s already grown on tons of people.
element515@reddit
Reddit thinks the bmw designs are bad. People actually buying them are fine with the design. Most of the narrative around the m3/4 is switching now to, it kind of looks good.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
The M3/4 deal with the buckteeth by putting other more aggressive bodywork around it to draw away from the awkwardness.
The vanilla buckteeth cars are ugly. People buy them because people buy BMWs for reasons other than styling, and those are the only ones available.
Update the technology of a previous generation m3 or m4 and offer it next to the current ones and see which ones sell more.
AntAir267@reddit
That Pininfarina looks like a generic GTA V Temu hypercar. You can hate the new Ferrari EV but it got people talking; good design should be divisive because not everything needs to cater to everyone.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
That line of thinking is exactly what is wrong with the design world. People desperate to have others talking about their designs so they throw out absurd stuff.
Was the 250 GTO divisive? The Jag E-Type? A Singer 911?
There will always be small groups of people that don't like any design, but you absolutely can have a design that almost everyone thinks is beautiful.
time_to_reset@reddit
The Luce wasn't designed by Ferrari. And the Battista cost $2.5m and it was my understanding they had trouble selling just 150 if them. For reference, the Purosangue sells something like 2500 to 3000 per year.
The G8x is also BMWs most successful M3 in terms of sales.
There's a reason your average Redditor doesn't run a car company.
Dachshand@reddit
The exterior indeed WAS designed by Ferrari.
James_Vowles@reddit
It wasn't. It was designed by the apple lot
F1T_13@reddit
It was. Ive and Newson were responsible for exterior and interior design elements the main design body is Manzoni's work. It was a collaboration.
James_Vowles@reddit
Do you have a source? because every article I've read says lovefrom did both
Dachshand@reddit
A lot of uniformed wrote ups out there.
F1T_13@reddit
Ferrari discussed it in an interview with Cleo.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Manzoni would have been the one to give Ive the design brief. He also would have been involved the entire way and signed off in the final design. Not to mention the black front fascia is 100% Manzoni design language.
This design 100% falls on Manzoni.
Additionally, every new M3 is the best selling M3. There are more and more buyers around the world. And they buy whatever is currently available.
If the previous M3s were still available in the showroom, brand new and with updated technology, the vast majority of people would take that over the new ones.
Ferrari doesn't have to make the Battista specifically, nor do they have to make something for $2.5mil. But something in that vein would sell a lot more than this luce piece of crap.
threeinacorner@reddit
That would be surprising, since the exterior design is bland in a way only a Silicon Valley product can be.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Do you think a company as large and prestigious as ferrari would turn design over to someone else, with no guidance, and then just accept the end result and build it no matter what?
threeinacorner@reddit
No, but you're talking as if LoveFrom doesn't have any say in the final design. It's very possible that this isn't what Manzoni fully envisioned, but something that Elkann intervened on. I see it as a joint decision between Elkann, Manzoni, and LoveFrom.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Therefore Manzoni and Ferrari have ultimate responsibility for this car.
threeinacorner@reddit
Again, LoveFrom couldn't be discounted from this. Manzoni and Ferrari made an investment in LoveFrom. They can't just scrap everything if they don't like it.
showmehomie@reddit
Not to mention he's comparing a 4-door 5-seater to a 2-door super car lol (not defending the Luce, just think its a silly comparison)
just_dave@reddit (OP)
It's not a silly comparison. Manzoni and Ferrari made a choice to design a 5 seater commuter car for their EV.
There was zero reason or desire from anybody for that.
The Battista, or something like it, is what Ferrari could have done. And I think most people would agree they should have.
element515@reddit
Uh, there’s a urus on like every street corner. The purosangue is selling well. Porsche survives on cayenne and macan sales.
You want high volume, you sell a car that can be used daily with a family. People that want a weekend sports car are more likely to go for the ICE powertrain. Going for a commuter car for their first EV was smart imo. Makes way more sense than the jump to a performance EV for them.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Ferrari doesn't do commuter cars.
The Luce is objectively ugly, even for a commuter car. If they had made something like the Purosangue but with an EV drivetrain, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
element515@reddit
I wouldn't say they don't do commuter cars. They have been moving towards offering cars with more seats and a lot of their products are geared as a GT car. There's a market for high end commuter cars and Ferrari is probably looking into it. The Urus, the Aston Martin thing, etc... it's becoming a segment.
I fully agree it's ugly and not what you expect from a Ferrari. That's just such an odd choice why it isn't a purosangue with an EV powertrain... but here we are lol.
showmehomie@reddit
Honestly, valid points!
Obviously, we don't know why they chose to make the Luce a 5-seater, but my guess would be this:
Electric supercars, like the Rimac, Battista, whatever, have not quite made the splash the manufacturers thought they would. People just aren't buying them as projected. Ferrari knows this.
I view the Luce as a (misguided) attempt at cashing in on a new market for Ferrari: wealthy EV buyers who'd normally never look at buying a Ferrari (i.e. a tech nerd with a family and a 2 y/o Model X that just sold his business and now wants a new, more expensive EV to brag about at his rich nerd parties).
As the original comment said, SUVs sell. Everyone bemoaned the Cayenne--it saved Porsche. Everyone raised an eyebrow at the Urus--it's Lambo's best-selling model, and it's not even close. Everyone thought Ferrari was crazy making an SUV--it's been a huge success. Not that the Luce is nearly as cool as any of those, or even an SUV for that matter, but it's closer to those than it is a sports car.
High-dollar ICE supercars are becoming like watches. Sure, my Casio keeps time better than a Rolex, I never have to wind it, and it's about 1,000x less expensive, but the complexity, craftsmanship, and prestige that come with a Rolex mean rich people want them. Rich people don't have to give a shit about practicality, reliability, gas mileage, anything really. It's all about exclusivity. Let's just say they did make an electric supercar. Even if it was faster than every other model in every way, better lap times, and hell, even better looking, I think most people would probably still get an ICE Ferrari. Why get a Ferrari supercar if it doesn't even have an engine (arguably the most iconic aspect of a Ferrari)? So why would they make an electric supercar?
All this is to say, I'm with you. Ferrari obviously fucked up with the design. But I don't think the designers had anything to do with the Luce being a "practical" 5-seater. To me, it seems like purely a boardroom decision. Sure, the Luce could have looked better, and there are some renders out there where it actually looks decent as a more low-slung sedan-type thing, but it was never going to be a 2-seat supercar IMO. That's why I think it's a silly comparison. Thanks for reading :p
just_dave@reddit (OP)
A purosangue style or shooting brake or breadvan design would have gone over well.
That render you posted in response to the comment below yours is very nice.
nd4spd1919@reddit
I don't think they needed to make it a jellybean CUV though. They could have started with a more standard mid-engine Ferrari shape, and made it a 4 seater shooting-brake, just because the engine doesn't need to be there anymore.
In my mind it would look like a cross between an F80 and a Amalfi and would look way better, but I'll also acknowledge that I'm biased; I think Ferrari Grand Tourers generally are more attractive than their sports or hyper cars. Here's a very bad photoshop.
showmehomie@reddit
Yeah, it could have looked amazing as a Ferrari 4-door superwagon, like this render is actually pretty cool. But I think the logic behind making it a CUV was that "if we're gonna make an EV, we need to make it the furthest thing from a Ferrari supercar as possible." I think it was likely a combination of "protecting their supercar legacy" and the bean counters saying that EV CUVs are the way to go (the Model Y is by far the highest selling Tesla).
James_Vowles@reddit
Nobody wants an electric supercar/hypercar. 5 seats are the way to go, like the Taycan.
F1T_13@reddit
It was a collaborative effort between Ferrari and the company co owned by Ive and Newson. Ferrari was absolutely part of the design process here. They didn't just pick it up and put their badges on it.
EloeOmoe@reddit
Ferrari clains it is an in house design.
Seref15@reddit
Most Ferraris weren't designed by Ferrari, they were designed by Pininfarina.
AcrobaticButterfly@reddit
Luce was designed by Ferrari, only the finishing details and certain design elements went to Johny Ive
choochoomdfker@reddit
Sadly Luce is nowhere close to Purosangue in terms of the aesthetic no matter both are targetting daily users. Battista is an electric supercar for sure. Though i guess eventually Luce would still have good sales for unknown reasons.
Dachshand@reddit
Both don’t look great. Luce has the better interior and far more space.
Geruvah@reddit
"How does Ferrari's head designer have a job?"
It was designed by Jony Ive and Marc Newson designed Apple products we've all known, praised, and own, for 3 decades. They're legit great designers. But they were the wrong fit for the Luce.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Flavio Manzoni would have still provided the design brief, and signed off in progress and finished product.
The Luce is just the latest on his ever growing list of design disasters.
Rla914@reddit
From my perspective, the issue seems to be that they brought in Jony Ive, whose design style is quite similar to the Apple Watch. While Apple devices are definitely captivating, their design doesn’t quite align with the automotive world. It feels like they decided to break away from the usual rules/elegance and create something quite unique. Not always is unique a good thing.
owleaf@reddit
I wouldn’t be shocked if the exterior was yet another Marc Newson special. He designed a concept car in the 1990s that looks almost exactly like the Luce.
Ive must’ve focused strictly on the interior which is something that has been universally praised.
cookingboy@reddit
I think their design align fine with the automotive world, they just don’t align with Ferrari.
If the car was Honda or Hyundai or Polestar or even a BMW, and priced accordingly, it wouldn’t be nearly as controversial and Jony Ive may even receive some praise for it (there are actually cool bits about the design here and there, especially the interior).
1maginaryApple@reddit
The price is for the first Ferrari EV. And they are not crazy. They have a whole marketing and product department. If that's the price they put, it's because they have buyers.
KpopMarxist@reddit
Why do people keep making these types of arguments like companies never make mistakes and release cars that end up as failures
1maginaryApple@reddit
How many mistakes Ferrari made in the past?
A_Fartist@reddit
A fair amount, there was a little while there where they weren’t doing so well and then saved face. The 400i or the Mondial are good examples of Ferrari flops.
1maginaryApple@reddit
On what metric do you consider them flops?
They sold about 7000 Mondial. Which is far from being a commercial flop. Quite the opposite.
The 400i sold less with about 1300 cars but Ferrari produced it for 16 years because they still had demand for them.
So what is your metric to say they were "flops"?
LemonCurdd@reddit
Honestly if you showed me the inside without the badges I’d assume it’s a new Honda E
If you should me the outside without the badges I’d guess it was a Toyota Crown refresh with the duo-tone
ferdiazgonzalez@reddit
I think it would’ve been ok if he had designed the interior alone. I imagine the Purosangue with that interior, I don’t think it’d be out of place.
People are complaining about the exterior design. It’s atrocious.
wtfduud@reddit
He did design the interior alone. The exterior was by Marc Newsom.
Moth92@reddit
So Ferrari hired a guy who designed a retro-futuristic Lada nearly 30 years ago to design their first EV...
And looking at his catalog, only thing I liked was the double barrel shotgun. Everything else that I saw, looked like it was designed for designers if you get what I mean.
ImperialAgent120@reddit
Yeah he's definitely one of those concept/museum piece designers.
It's like an Architect who only designs weird set pieces for museums or event centers.
musicartandcpus@reddit
The front end screams Honda to me. If you took away the Ferrari badge and told me guess I’d say it was a Honda concept car.
DonutIndividual@reddit
Literally thought it was new honda concept when i first saw the pics
anomalous_cowherd@reddit
A 1980s Honda concept car.
Several-Eggplant4460@reddit
https://i.imgur.com/jBeZ6Hu.png
Tongue in cheek but it gets the point across... The design looks great in a $40k BYD or Honda, not a Ferrari.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
I don't mean to be that guy but it looks nothing like a BYD except for being blue. They share zero design language beyond being 2020s EVs. Honda is a lot lot closer.
The extensive use of black as a contrasting colour (BYD typically doesn't use any, on their older cars it's sometimes silver/chrome) is wrong, the general shape is too sleek and, well, iPhone shaped (BYDs are generally rounded, whereas the Luce is quite slab-sided), it isn't overstyled enough to be a BYD, rims are completely wrong, the lights are thin bars on the Luce while BYDs tend to have thicker lights.
BYD Sealion 7 for comparison of what their on road EV crossover actually looks like. The Honda 0 SUV looks more similar on the front, though the backs are different.
Aken42@reddit
It is car.
It lacks the flair and style expected of an Italian performance brand.
Rla914@reddit
I do think the tech is cool, don’t get me wrong. But for a Ferrari it’s just not that.apple car leaks I think it’s funny that this leak from a little while ago was leaked to be the Apple Car
Dnlx5@reddit
Man, the apple car looks more like a Ferrari than the Luce.
cookingboy@reddit
Yep, if Apple released this car and charge $65k for it, I can totally see it replace Model Y as the mass commuter for Silicon Valley. And Jony would be getting a ton of praises too.
But for $650k? What the flying fuck lmao
The_Bucket_Of_Truth@reddit
They're doing most or all the hardware themselves I'm told. Not buying motors from other companies and just sticking Ferrari badges on everything. I mean I assume the batteries are at least outsourced. I think basically this is a car they would never voluntarily make, are being forced to, and they are going to ram it down their wealthy clients' throats so Ferrari can recoup the costs. Sorry if you don't buy the Luce you are going to lose your place in line to buy the F90 or SP4 that's coming next to another person who did shell out for one. New Ferrari cars may not get good clicks on YouTube but the upper echelon of them still command a huge premium and hungry owners, so like I said I'm guessing many guys with more money than they know what to do with will basically be forced to get these. I have to imagine they'll depreciate faster than any Ferrari in recent memory.
Responsible-Meringue@reddit
Disagree with that last paragraph thesis. These guys exactly want something that's just different enough, but not quite out there. A Ferrari blob is perfect for them. Only the people who matter will see it. You don't daily a lucid or taycan, not even a plaid Tesla. Luce baby, I'm in the nine comma club. Johnny Ive nailed the customer base, and you're not one of them.
Pricing is a bit weird. But if you're sniffing your own farts, ”I own the first electric Ferrari" is a requirement on the collection / achievement list.
Plan B: it fails to sell, if you get to throw your hands up and say "nobody wants electric". I don't know what forces are requiring them to make electric cars tho.
Mickey_Clips@reddit
You know the 3 comma club is billionaire, right? Elon Musk is still in the 3 comma club. No nation even has more than 4 commas.
cookingboy@reddit
That’s like order of magnitude more than the total amount of money in the world. Can you just pay Ferrari to make this go away? 😂
rhunter99@reddit
You nailed it. This car with a Nissan badge would be totally accepted. A Ferrari? WTF were they smoking?
Jlx_27@reddit
I find nothing captivating about Apple designs, the car you're talking about is also not captivating at all.
Cojo840@reddit
He didnt do the exterior
F1T_13@reddit
Jony shouldn't blamed for this alone, it was a collaborative effort with Ferrari who ultimately signed off on this catastrophe. Jony added most of the elements but I am told Ferrari was responsible for the underlying shape and body.
Quick_Coyote_7649@reddit
Ive isnt really the issue. It’s been claimed that the design is more so Ferrari’s work and Ive’s contribution is really just the cosmetics.
anomalous_cowherd@reddit
So the parts that are getting slated by everyone?
I've seen barely anyone mention the performance or the tech, and what I have seen puts it as a "reasonably high performance EV, but nothing special these days".
AwesomeBantha@reddit
Yeah, it wasn’t Ive’s idea to make the first Ferrari EV a 4-door sedan, give it hardware that gets spanked by multiple others in the segment that cost at least 3x less, at $600k.
Quick_Coyote_7649@reddit
Plus they should’ve just launched the ev shortly after the facelift of the purosangue and had the ev desigj GR based heavily upon the sangue
Aken42@reddit
Being unique from the rest of the automotive world is fine. Being unique from an established design style and brand is stupid.
PastPalpitationCry@reddit
I've only designed the car but Ferrari is responsible for the blob shape as per Ferrari.
No design even the digital ones will save a blob car
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I think Ive did a fantastic job with the interior. I'd be happy if that is the direction they went with all of their interiors.
The exterior though...
Even if Ive did the entire exterior design, which he didn't, Manzoni would have given him the design brief and would have signed off on the finished product.
That black front fascia is 100% Manzoni.
jzjones22@reddit
To me the interior, while an improvement on what they had, looks very fisher price IMO.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I can understand that. I just think it's an excellent example of merging the flexibility of screens with the tactile feel of switches and dials.
the specific design language can be tuned though.
RiftHunter4@reddit
The Luce looks OK. the problem is that it doesn't look like a Ferrari and we know it's not going to drive like one either.
AntalRyder@reddit
The biggest issue with the design is that it's not unique. It looks like a next gen Nissan Leaf, or Nissan Ariya, or VW ID7, or any of the Chinese CUV EVs.
maxlax02@reddit
Unique is the last word I would use to describe that car.
kron98_@reddit
I think there are some key misunderstandings in this entire situation. Ferrari hired LoveFrom (Jhonny Ive's firm) to do the exterior and interior.
The exterior is from Marc Newson, who designed this car, for example, Ford 021C The interior is from Ive, and it pays homage to a Ferrari 512 or similar. If Marc weren't on LoveFrom, the car would definitely look different regarding the exterior.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Do you believe that Ferrari (Manzoni) didn't give them a design brief? Do you believe that Manzoni didn't sign off on the finished product? Do you think that they told them, "design us a Ferrari EV supercar" and then received the Luce and then just went with it?
kron98_@reddit
Yeah, that's what usually happens. You get a brief, you design the product.
The thing is, this isn't a Ferrari for the typical petrolhead with a F430, a California, or a 296. This is a Ferrari for the new, young, money-filled owner that cares more about the logo than the tech behind it. Pretty sure it's done to appeal to the public in Asia, rather than the usual 50-something person in Europe or the US.
b6q28q@reddit
The Battista is a Rimac. Ferrari brought design in house because Pininfarina was looking for a buyer. Most of the Italian coach builders were bought out. You can’t really blame them. At the end of the day we might not like the Luce, but Ferrari does what they want.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I know. I just think that hiring Manzoni as the head of in-house design was a terrible mistake. He is single handedly killing Ferrari's soul.
daBomb26@reddit
Manzoni has been in charge of Ferrari’s design department since 2010. If you don’t like any Ferrari’s over the last 15 years idk what to tell you. Pininfarina designed both amazing cars and duds. Manzoni has penned some of the most gorgeous designs in their history.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Fair. There are some very good ones early in his tenure. Looks like it started to go off the rails around 2019. Perhaps it took a while for him to gain enough freedom and control to go his own direction? Perhaps he had a stroke or an accident of some kind?
daBomb26@reddit
You know automotive regulations are constantly changing though, right? Not only does Manzoni have to constantly evolve the design language (Ferrari believes in looking forward, not back), but he and his team have to navigate architecture and engineering challenges, on top of increasingly strict emissions, efficiency, and safety regulations. I know it’s difficult to see behind the scenes behind all of the reasons a company makes the decisions it does, but it’s odd to me when people think a successful designer suddenly forgot how to design a car.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I don't think he forgot or doesn't know how to design a car. I think his personal design tastes are not good and are ruining the ferrari brand.
And I'm aware of the constraints around various regulations. Do you think that Ferrari face specific regulation changes that their automotive contemporaries don't face? Because other companies are somehow able to design and build cars, both ICE and EV that look better than the Luce and several other modern Ferraris, and I'm pretty sure they face the same constraints.
daBomb26@reddit
I hear you, but I don’t think you’re fairly comparing this car to other cars, based on your other comments. Competitors for this car are not the Battista or Taycan. A fair comparison for cars in the Luce’s segment are Mercedes EQS, Lucid Air, and Tesla Model X. (I’m aware this is far more expensive than those)
Now, I personally am less than enthused about the fact that Ferrari thinks they need to make this type of car in the first two place, but they clearly thought they had to make an EV, and if they want it to sell, then they need to make it a midsize crossover SUV seeing as those are the only EV’s anyone seems to buy.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
See, that's where part of my issue comes from. There isn't a universe that exists where ferrari should be making a car that directly competes with an EQS, Lucid or Tesla.
They could have easily made a purosangue equivalent EV. They could have easily made a GT EV. An FF or GTC Lusso equivalent. And they could have easily made a proper super car or hyper car.
I think Ferrari is probably the only brand that could actually get sales with an EV hyper car and they could charge whatever they wanted to make it profitable.
They made a choice to design and build a vehicle that, stripped of it's badges, looks like it would be a direct competitor to the ioniq 5N.
The Luce itself is a failure on both Manzoni and Vigna the CEO.
But the overall design trend that I personally despise falls on Manzoni.
daBomb26@reddit
I respect your opinion. But sporty EV’s don’t sell well. When people want an exciting luxury sports car, they want an engine, not batteries, and people have consistently said as much with their wallets. It could just be a difference in personality. Instead of hating on things instinctively, I prefer to try to be curious and learn about them instead.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
And as I've said many times in this thread, it doesn't have to be a sports car or hyper car.
A shooting brake, breadvan, or even a CUV a la purosangue would have been much better received.
The Battista was only linked due to the history with Ferrari via pininfarina and the Italian roots. I could have chosen any number of other sporty yet functional and desirable EVs.
Don't get hung up on the Battista or the EV hyper car as a class.
Get hung up on the massive leadership failure within Ferrari that lead to this travesty getting green lit in the first place.
brahlicious@reddit
AND THEY SOLD NONE OF THEM.
Why would Ferrari want to follow down the same path.
daBomb26@reddit
First, Manzoni didn’t design the Luce. Second, it’s a big family crossover SUV, not a hypercar.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I'll ask you the same thing that I have asked other people with the same comment:
Do you believe that Ferrari (Manzoni) didn't give them a design brief? Do you believe that Manzoni didn't sign off on the finished product? Do you think that they told them, "design us a Ferrari EV supercar" and then received the Luce and then just went with it?
Ferrari made choices here. They were the wrong choices.
daBomb26@reddit
Manzoni worked with them throughout the whole way from start to finish. Ferrari has said as much. He understands what makes a Ferrari look like a Ferrari better than anyone, so obviously he was playing an advisory role. What’s your point? Are you angry that Ferrari made their own version of a Tesla Model X EV midsize crossover-SUV? Are you angry that it isn’t a hypercar design? Or you angry that they didn’t execute better on what they were trying to do? Because to me, commenters like you frankly sound a bit ignorant, and are missing the bigger picture here.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
My point is that you saying "Manzoni didn't design the Luce" isn't entirely true, and even if it was, it wouldn't remove his responsibility for what was produced.
I'm annoyed at the majority of the styling decisions that Manzoni has taken across the lineup over the last 8 years or so. And I have commented about this exact topic before, long before the Luce existed.
If he "understands what a Ferrari looks like better than anyone," then why does almost every motor journalist, other people in the industry, and even the former Ferrari CEO tall poorly of his design choices?
He has taken the brand in a different direction and that direction has consistently produced cars that people have questioned the styling of more and more.
daBomb26@reddit
You’re right, F.M. has responsibility for any Ferrari release seeing as he’s the standing design chief of Centro Stilé.
I’m not sure what to tell you if you don’t prefer the designs of the past 8 years besides to say that it might suggest that you’re getting older. We all prefer the music and cars and even fashion of our adolescence. Then we get older and we don’t get the new stuff coming out.
I’m not sure I agree with the premise that every motor journalist, or even most of them have issues with recent Ferraris. I DO know that the idea of journalists and the public taking a while to come around to new car designs is not a new thing. There was a lot of critique when LaFerrari came out about its looks and now it’s widely loved. I also know that the internet and therefore talk forums are more accessible than ever, more people are using Reddit than ever, etc. I know that we are living in a cynical time with little hope for the future. Rage baiting is popular, needless to say, and in general the internet is a more negative place than it used to be. Therefore, the fact that critiques have grown over past generations, to me, is a correlations vs causation question and I don’t think the designs are necessarily the causation, all things considered.
I’ve seen negativity surrounding new designs with every major car brand subreddit from McLaren and BMW, to Lamborghini and Porsche. And there are tons of factors. Cars are bigger than ever, quieter than ever, more complicated than ever, etc etc etc, and for purists it’s just a bummer across the board. With all of these recent hits to the purist car culture, it almost doesn’t matter how good the designs are if the rest of the car has already been damned by a portion of the car community.
This isn’t a Ferrari phenomenon, they’re just the biggest brand with the biggest fan base in the world and are therefore going to get the lions share of comments.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
We'll ultimately have to agree to disagree as style and design preferences are obviously purely subjective. You're allowed to love what I hate, and vice versa. My replies to you don't come from a place of rage bait or vitriol, just from a place of passion from someone who has been a Ferrari fan since my dad got me a model of an F-40 when I was a small kid.
I'll be the first one to tell you that the plural of anecdote is not fact, but it can be data. Of the people that I have had conversations about this general topic, the overwhelming majority, to varying degrees, have felt that the design language has been taken in a Marmite direction.
The big car reviewers tend to be very delicate when it comes to Ferrari, as a result of Ferrari's very vindictive reputation. The fact that most of them make a point to comment on the black bars across the front of the cars and say that people are either going to love it or hate it while having a questionable expression on their face should tell you quite a bit.
Again, we can agree to disagree, and I respect your right to your own opinion. I will, however, happily die on this particular hill.
Liam_M@reddit
https://imgur.com/a/LrJbcFe
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Bravo.
EmergencyRace7158@reddit
This should have been impossible to f*ck up. Lean on Ferrari's heritage and existing design language to make something that looks futuristic but unequivocally like a Ferrari. Luca De Montezemolo once said a Ferrari should be recognizable as one without any badges. All the best car brands are like that - Porsche, Lamborghini, BMW etc. The Luce would be yet another generic EV minivan/SUV/fat sedan design without any badges. Imagine if they used the 12 cylindri as the starting off point and did a modern 4 door take on the Daytona!
-Woogity-@reddit
I’m still waiting for the punchline to hit and the real release drop after the crazy hype build up.
come on, do it
bwoah_gimmethedrink@reddit
Splitting with Pininfarina to design their cars was generally a horrible decision. All new Ferrari's are more or less overstyled and ugly, with some horrible throwbacks to the old models as "bonus".
pdp10@reddit
While the car looks good, the styling is also extremely conservative, with an exception here and there like the wing mirrors. It's like every 2010s supercar design, mixed together with Stable Diffusion.
1maginaryApple@reddit
Pininfarina is a design studio. Ferrari decided they wanted their design to be handled 100% in-house.
That was 16 years ago.
The Luce was designed by Jony I've design studio. Not Ferrari in-house one. That's a choice they made. But it's completely unrelated to the split with Pininfarina.
You also have to understand that Ferrari, currently at least, will not release an EV supercar. Because that's not what their customers are interested in.
If you can buy a Ferrari supercar, you don't buy an EV one.
What Ferrari did with the Luce is basically is a market positioning move on the EV market. And no matter how much people don't like the Luce (and let's be real 99% of the people here can't afford one) they have a market for it and customers interested.
What they are selling, is the exclusivity. And that's why they needed to depart from what they usually do and hired Jony Ive.
Ferrari had to position themselves on the EV market at some point if they want to stay relevant for the next 20 years. And they could simply not do it with a supercar. It would have hurt the brand even more.
You're all complaining but you're not Ferrari target audience.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Ferrari didn't have to make a battista equivalent, no. But they could have made something like a purosangue EV.
The Luce doesn't provide them with any advantage or relevance in the EV market. It has worse performance and is uglier than existing options.
Ferrari's target audience comes in various flavors. There are those that want to be seen in a Ferrari. There are those that appreciate and want to experience the dynamics of driving a Ferrari. And there are also those that grew up with Ferrari posters on their walls and models on their shelves and have been successful enough to finally achieve that dream as an adult.
The Luce serves none of those people.
1maginaryApple@reddit
The Luce is definitely there for those who want to be seen in a Ferrari, especially a controversial first Ferrari EV ever. That's your "exlusivity" 101.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Except the people that want to be seen in a Ferrari usually want to be seen in one because they are considered an object of desire and passion for lots of other people that can't afford to be seen in one.
The Luce is being derided in every automotive circle as being the opposite of that. They will undoubtedly sell some because there is always somebody that likes weird or counterculture things. They will sell more than deserved because people will buy them as part of showing loyalty to the company so they can get a Halo car.
They will sell a LOT less of them than if they had made something that didn't suck in every area except the interior.
1maginaryApple@reddit
And how can you affirm that? Ferrari ran a market study for that car and said they indeed have already buyers.
You have nothing to back that claim. There's also a lot of people with that kind of money that couldn't care less about passion but just want to buy an exclusive Ferrari just because of the notoriety of the brand. And this isn't only a thing with Ferrari.
James_Vowles@reddit
How have people already forgotten that the Ferrari Luce was not designed by Ferrari.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Do you believe that a company would contact another design firm, tell them to make them a car, and then just shrug at the end when they're given a turd and say "well I guess we have no choice but to build it?"
No, Manzoni would have given Ive the design brief, would have been involved throughout the process, and would have signed off on the finished product.
James_Vowles@reddit
You can tell from the way the car looks that Ferrari clearly took a hands off approach. It looks like an Apple car inside and out.
I think they never wanted to build an EV, regulations forced them too, they have made it very clear that they don't want existing customers to buy this thing.
What they should have done was put a different badge on it, create an electric only sub brand.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Even if that was the case, it's still an example of poor leadership decision making. They will regret this car.
MotoMD@reddit
An EV luxury sedan or sport SUV would have made sense. Something where EVs do well (practical and quite) and leave the ICE or hybrids for the sports cars. No one would be pissed and the brand image wouldn’t be hurt.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Agreed. It doesn't have to be something like the Battista. An electric purosangue equivalent could have been well received.
Mugen887@reddit
May I ask what design credentials or criticism you have to make the bold claim about flavio, in my opinion he does an extremely difficult job of paying homage to Ferraris past without going retro, which is easier said than done you have to be a master at your craft to achieve that which is why I think he is justified to be Ferraris designer. Imo People are going to look back at this era of Ferrari far more kindly than they currently do.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I have no credentials as a car designer.
I have a lifetime of experience as a car design consumer.
I have no doubt that he is a talented artist. He was involved with the LaFerrari, which I think is a masterpiece.
The soul of a car is in its face. The most iconic designs clearly have some sort of anthropomorphic connection to humans. And Manzoni is on record saying that he doesn't like that. That is why he puts those black bars across the front of his designs. Or that little lip wing thingy that ruins the SF90.
He might very well be a talented car designer, but he is not a good Ferrari designer.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
I thought that I was one of few guys with terrible memory, but most really forget it...
Remember that Luce isn't Ferrari only EV plan, it's just one of EVs in their EV lineup. They've plan for another EV which is exactly sports car model just like Battista. However, most exotic buyers still don't interest and don't look all electric sports car, Ferrari now gets exemption to built combustion engine car, so they pause their all electric sports car model.
If all electric sports car buyers are really there, they will definitely built one, but the market is clearly not there. Of corse, it isn't only problem for Ferrari, many sports car makers don't plan all electric sports car.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
The purosangue proves that they can design a CUV size/shape vehicle that people actually like. If they had done something that was actually attractive but had 5 seats and an EV drivetrain, they wouldn't be able to build them fast enough.
They could still meet the EV requirements for their lineup while actually selling vehicles.
This isn't just an ugly car for a ferrari. This is an ugly car, period.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Let Porsche to prove it just like their SUV model. They still plan to put their all electric 718 in production. If Porsche does succeed in that, Ferrari EV sports car will restart. Ferrari should believe that Porsche having same high level prestige, so they want Porsche doing first.
Otherwise, we don’t see the market the there. Rimac has proven that not many people interest his own masterpiece, and not so many exotic buyers really interest in BYD exotics.
Lopan_Mc@reddit
Should have been a four door breadvan.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I would have been fine with this. So many better directions they could have gone.
enfuego138@reddit
“Car design terrorist” is my new favorite title.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
I would say that I have an irrational hatred for the man, but that would imply that I'm wrong.
His designs are a disaster.
rugbyj@reddit
Bit of a sweeping statement when he designed the original iPhone, Apple Watch, and MacBook Air.
I think his problem more is that he's had such incredible designs earlier in his career that seemingly nobody says no to him any more.
Informal-Rock-2681@reddit
They're referring to Manzoni, not Ive.
rugbyj@reddit
Apologies saw Ive discussion elsewhere in the thread and figured that was the crux.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
No worries.
I think Ive did a great job with the interior and hopefully has created a template for all manufacturers on how to blend screens with tactile interfaces.
Manzoni is the menace.
iamarddtusr@reddit
This is what happens when an Italian company brings in a British designer. They forgot people love Italian designs.
ikilledtupac@reddit
The Luce is obviously the scrapped Apple Car. And the same designer. And the inside looks like an iPhone.
Phosphorus444@reddit
The Luce wasn't designed for you. It wasn't designed for me. Nor was it designed for anyone else who could call himself a car enthusiast.
No, the Ferrari Luce was designed for techbros. People who make their whole personality about owning the latest iPhone. In fact Ferrari brought in the guy who removed the audio jack from the iphone to design the Luce's interior.
You don't have to believe me, go watch tech YouTube's reactions to the Luce.
Strict_Indication308@reddit
Ferrari obviously has no intention of breaking into the EV market. They played with the idea of creating an EV but by this example they’ve obviously pivoted back to pure ice vehicles which honestly is where they’ve always wanted to be. Look at the Mercedes EQS and tell me you didn’t want to shake the driver while asking him what the hell was he thinking when he blew $90,000 on an uglier version of a ford Taurus. These companies only designed EVs because they thought they needed to comply with compliance regulations which, in our supreme leaders expertise, they do not.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
The EQS wasn't just about compliance. Mercedes is absolutely in the EV game. They just went too far on the aero side of the efficiency equation and ended up with an ugly blob.
You either sacrifice some aero efficiency for the sake of style, or go all the way like Aptera.
Ferrari needed an EV for compliance reasons. They absolutely could have made something cool, whether sports car or CUV. The luce definitely isn't that.
julienjj@reddit
That car is very MEH powertrain wise.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I still find this way uglier than the nevera r, & especially worse than the evija
bit apples to oranges of course I think most of the modern ICE & PHEV Ferraris look better than this
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Ehh, the Nevera looks a little bit GTA generic to me. It's not ugly, but it's not super memorable. The Evija looks great.
I brought up the Battista because it is also Italian and was designed by Pininfarina, who have designed most of the best Ferraris.
The rest of the line up though...
Aside from special one-off designs like the SP3, Ferrari hasn't made a strikingly good looking car since the LaFerrari.
The SF90 is just straight ugly. The 296 is better, but is let down by the front end again. The Daytona is OK except for the stupid black bar across the front. The F80 looks decent, but again, the black bar across the front really does it zero favors.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I think the 296 is let down by the rear, if anything. I think the front is unmistakably ferrari
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Unmistakably modern ferrari though. It's basically the sf90 front without that hideous little wing lip thingy.
A huge improvement, but just not quite there for me.
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
The Battista wouldn't have been the solution. The EV side of the industry is pretty clear on what sells. Decent looking 5 seat SUVs. The design language of this could have worked if it fit the rest of the brand. Even the Lotus SUV, whatever your thoughts on it are at least aesthetically tries to fit the current design language. The concept from Lambo that is now cancelled fit their design language.
just_dave@reddit (OP)
Sure, a purosangue equivalent would sell well. Though I think the Ferrari badge would sell a lot more battista equivalent cars than other manufacturers would.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
I alluded to this in a different post, but this reminds me a bit of the BMW XM as a strategic mistake for the company. BMW wanted to launch a sub-brand of dedicated M vehicles in the vein of Mercedes-AMG vehicles. However, Mercedes created buy-in with initial vehicles like the GT and GT 4D, likely knowing in the future that some kind of AMG SUVs would actually make the bulk of the money just like the Macan and Cayenne at Porsche. BMW tried to hit fast-forward on this though and came out with a pricey crossover that was a bit of a mess all over: deeply controversial styling and questionable performance compared to what almost existed in the BMW lineup.
That's what Ferrari has done here. I don't think an electric Ferrari is a terrible idea, but because you're charting such a new path, you need to create buy-in first with the public. So yes I absolutely agree that something with gigantic performance either as a track star like a Ferrari version of the Nio EP9 (race car concepts underneath the sheetmetal) or YangWang U9 (incredible top speed engineering achievement) make vastly more sense. Why? They'd have established electric Ferraris as exciting demonstration of Ferrari's engineering prowess, just in a different package, rather than creating something you have to be on the defensive about constantly because you swung so far left field that you can't bring the public around on it (Luce). An electric crossover is what you built after that.
SageAgainstDaMachine@reddit
Amen, Ferrari just ain't the same without Pininfarina