Which two countries in the Balkans have the most complex and interesting relations?

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shysamurai@reddit

What's complicated about Serbia-Croatia?

Relations are hostile, simple as.

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amazingamy19@reddit

It isn’t as simple as that.

There are hostile people, and then there are the rest of us.

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Croats and Serbs can have correct relations and I see nothing wrong with that. But when I see people, tbf mostly Serbs, preaching some “brotherhood” and Yugoslavia I literally get sick. No reason at all for it - we functioned without it for 1000 years, why should we be united now? We saw it went wrong not once but twice. It just can’t happen. We can have neighbourly relations and that’s fair, what most Croats think. But believing we love each other and that we’re meant to be one country is delusional. I met too many Serbs to think this isn’t a general view amongst you guys.

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amazingamy19@reddit

I’ve seen stuff like “braćo Hrvati”, mostly said when bickering/bantering, as a joke, or sarcastically.

The new joint country is definitely not the general sentiment.

But i would like the relations to normalise further tho, it would make our lives easier and new generations grow up in a healthier investment.

I have my doubts, but staying hopeful i guess.

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Names-Are-Confusing@reddit

The relations will normalise as soon as you get a somewhat normal government ready for European integration. When that happens, you’ll join the Schengen area and the Eurozone and you’ll have better relations with all of EU including Croatia. No roaming fees and also no border control anymore. That’s as good as it will get, and as good as it should get.

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shaikann@reddit

Turkey and Greece is weird. Our governments fight, we troll each other on the webs, whenever I go to Greece or they come here we drink together, eat together and have great interactions

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Bardosaurus@reddit

Same as Serbia and Croatia. I always loved going to like Netherlands and stumbling across some Croats and hitting it off with them

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EducationalEntry147@reddit

LMAO the Netherlands. Because all the Croatians in Croatia already left XD

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nickgev@reddit

Not particularly funny considering the reason they left

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EducationalEntry147@reddit

Did they leave because of the wars? I thought they left cause they are generally poor like the rest of us lol

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Names-Are-Confusing@reddit

Croatia isn’t poor. Croats whine, especially on social media, but by any metric, it’s a developed economy. Every single economic statistic shows that.

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EducationalEntry147@reddit

I know Croatia does better than most of the Balkans. But I figured it's still poor compared to countries like France or the UK or the Netherlands

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Names-Are-Confusing@reddit

First off, Croatia isn’t a fully Balkan country, it’s split between Balkans and Central Europe. Secondly, Croatia’s GDP(PPP) per capita is $54,359 which is comparable to New Zealand($58,308), Portugal($52,841), Kuwait($54,303) and Spain($59,187). Currently, the only “Balkan” country ahead of Croatia is Slovenia, but it’s debatable whether it’s Balkan anyways. You’re Romanian, you yourself live in a transitional country, you should know that. Anyways, if GDP(PPP) wasn’t enough, Croatian HDI is 0.889, which is comparable to Qatar(0.886), Portugal(0.89), Bahrain(0.899) and Saudi Arabia(0.9). It’s still behind most Central European countries, and all Western European countries, but not by a huge margin, and definitely not enough to be considered “poor” in comparison.

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nickgev@reddit

The displacement caused by the wars led to the huge Croatian diaspora. Some estimates show the diaspora is bigger than the country’s population.

Not that it was heaven on Earth before that, but they also didn’t get fucked by the Ottomans for half a millennium.

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Nothing_Special_23@reddit

Nothing weird there to be honest. When a tourist comes to Greece to bring them money they're their best friends with talking, drinking, hanging out, all that stuff... heck if Hitler came out of the grave tomorrow and went to Greece on vacation, they'd treat him as their best frined. It's Greeks, it's what they do.

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shaikann@reddit

Not what I meant. We have a shared culture. Secular Turks and Greeks are more similar than religious Turks and secular Turks imho

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Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit

Unfortunately Greece's culture heavily shifted to west after 80s. I was a kid in the 80s and when I watched the movie Dedemin Insanlari (My Grandfather's People) I git nostalgic of my own childhood.

A greek child of later decades wouldn't feel any familiarity with the Turkish culture. I mean OK we still have music and food ties but the lifestyle is completely different and you don't even hear any Turkish words any more. I was surprised for example that my 15 years old nephew never heard about harac and rusvet (χαρατσι and ρουσφετι in Greek) which you would hear daily in Greek politics at least up to 2010 (we called harac the property taxes that were imposed during our financial crisis). I mean WTF? :\

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

"Greece's culture heavily shifted to west"

for the best.

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Abigail_Blyg@reddit

LMAO, that’s so embarrassing.

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shaikann@reddit

Its the same with young generation of Turkish people as well, unfortunately Istanbul or Izmir of old does not exist anymore. Even 10-20 years ago a person growing in Istanbul would have a very different culture compared to now. Yet I believe this does not nullify hundreds of years of culture still and that culture will survive somehow.

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NoSync22@reddit

Wasn’t the culture of Istanbul (or at least parts of it) markedly transformed by the immigration from eastern regions too?

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shaikann@reddit

Yeah, in Izmir too. For example before that both cities had a culture very much influenced by Christian and Jewish minorities. Sadly people are brainwashed in the last 25 years by the current government to believe Turkey always had a monodominant nationalistic culture.

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Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit

Yet I believe this does not nullify hundreds of years of culture still and that culture will survive somehow.

Yeah! Of course. What I'm trying to say is that back in 80s our way of everyday living was more familiar to each other. This familiarity is lost like we drifted apart somehow.

I mean back in the 80s as kids we would still watch karagoz while our parents were drinking turkish coffee (yeah we were calling it turkish back then and I don't know when exactly it got renamed to greek coffee). And I believe I could go on and mention 100+ more examples like this.

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Puzzleheaded_Sail729@reddit

pure bs btw.

You just generalize from your touristic experiences. A Turkmen from Turkmenistan is closer to us than Greeks culturally, linguistically etc

We being a highly polarized nation doesn't mean we are culturally distant. Not drinking rakı can't be solely an indicator to declare Secular and Conservative Turks disconnected to a degree that saying Greeks are closer to seculars of Turkey. Only places in Greece that are culturally close to Turkey are Western Thrace and cities with high Anatolian Greek populations such as Ptolemaida (Kayılar)

Written by a Balkan Turk.

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

I agree, friend.

islander Greek.

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shaikann@reddit

To me religious Turks are similar to Syrians, Afghans etc. Thats why they import them to become absolute majority culturally and demographically...

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

LMAO.

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Inner_Variety2826@reddit

Yeah because last time Mussolini and Hitler came to Greece for a walk the Greeks welcome them with open arms, right? Right?

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kyrsideris@reddit

Because we are more similar-minded than we think we are.

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Urayami@reddit

Cus we are brothers sometimes brothers fight its Okay

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Longjumping-Bid-2212@reddit

And they are secretly kissing.

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ant_gav@reddit

That's 100% true

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HighlanderAlien@reddit

Serbia and croatia are like two brothers, one bigger and older and one smaller and younger. The bigger says im in charge here now. The smaller says absolutly fucknig not.

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KarijesNaMozgu@reddit

love this 'underlying' hate you have towards Croatia

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HighlanderAlien@reddit

Wrong

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Extra-Working1631@reddit

As a Serbo-Croatian, I would say that it isn’t as complicated as it may seem today. To put it as briefly and objectively as possible: - Serbs and Croats share a common ancestry and speak very similar languages. - Over the centuries, they came under the influence of different powers and religious traditions, with some becoming predominantly Catholic and others predominantly Orthodox. - After World War I, both peoples became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (later Yugoslavia). Even though it’s hard to admit, we all won in the war mostly because of Serbian troops. However, many Croats felt that Yugoslavia was too centralized and dominated by Belgrade, which contributed to growing nationalist tensions. Today, young people generally get along well, and I have never had an awkward experience with either side (keeping in mind that I’m called a Serb in Croatia and a Croat in Serbia). Nationalism is often used by politicians as a tool to gain votes and maintain divisions, that’s all. 🇭🇷❤️🇷🇸

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amazingamy19@reddit

I love how your summary is a watered down version of S-C relations lol.

But I do agree that relations today, among majority of the people, are normalised and hopefully it will continue in that direction.

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Extra-Working1631@reddit

Fair enough, I just wanted to summarize it without writing a whole history book lol. Good to hear we're on the same page about the future though.

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Abject_Avocado_6410@reddit

Turkey is nit Balkan. Its asian country

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Sekalino@reddit

Someone should tell the mods of this sub they’ve been letting us in all this time

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Abject_Avocado_6410@reddit

Yeah. Turkey is country in asia, Middle east. I don t understand why some ppl placeing turkey in europe whole time.

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Sekalino@reddit

Well unfortunately we were able to keep a little piece of Europe after the collapse of the empire. So now you are stuck with us and consequently we are stuck with you. No one is happy and ,ironically, that is very Balkan.

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Abject_Avocado_6410@reddit

Ok, you have 1% od europe, but that doesn’t means that you are European country. Cultural, political, moraly… Turkey is Middle eastern state

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

I mean,

practically no one outside online spaces like this considers Turkey Balkan.

if people here were being honest, they'd confirm that.

it's a larp, that people here accept, & that's cool.

but it doesn't reflect reality.

like u said, Turkey will always be considered Asian/Middle East.

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Sekalino@reddit

*3% Culturally we have lived in the area together with all of you for about 1000 years. There has been a lot of bilateral cultural exchange in that time literally just open a Turkish and any Balkan cookbook and compare the dishes.

Politically our constitution and laws are literally copy and pasted from various European countries such as France or italy. Atatürk just yoinked the stuff he liked from others.

Morally -kinda fucked up ngl- idk what to say because idk what you mean. Are saying we are evil? I don’t see any moral differences between us I’m sure we’d agree on most moral issues or is there sth specific you think Turks disagree on morally?

Turkey is both in the Middle East and in the Balkans. We’re in Asia and in Europe.

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KillerNail@reddit

Turkey is culturally more aligned with Balkan countries compared to it's other neighbours (except Azerbaijan). Politically Turkey is closest to Europe, being a NATO member since 1952 and not being in any other military or political groups. I have no idea what "morally" even means.

Turkey is a Eurasian state.

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Stverghame@reddit

Serbia and Croatia

While I do understand why you might think this one is complex - it ain't that complex today at all after everything.

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kuhinjski@reddit

Nothing complex about that. Its just hate.

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NebelNator_427@reddit

I wonder why no one mentions Kosovo?

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venusFarts@reddit

Who?

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NebelNator_427@reddit

A country between Serbia and Albania that has a horrible relationship with Serbia

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Artistic_Injury_8231@reddit

Serbia and serbia

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SmartFlyNR1@reddit

Slovenia is not Balkan! Don't put us where we don't belong

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit (OP)

Why are you here then.

Welcome.

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Ajax1718@reddit

Bosnia

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Janusz_Kalistenik@reddit

With itself?

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Ajax1718@reddit

The ethnic groups contained, yes

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MannHegelmann@reddit

There r Bosniaks and two wannabe ethnic groups.

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Karamazovakis@reddit

I think the relations ex yu countries have with other ex yu countries are very interesting.

I mean you could do a PhD in international relations about how people so similar to each other (don't shoot me, you know what I mean) ended up hating and committing atrocities against one another.

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Names-Are-Confusing@reddit

Don’t get me started. I’m a person from Northern Croatia. By any common sense, if you visited Northern Croatia(Zagreb, Varaždin, Čakovec, Krapina, Koprivnica, partly Karlovac and Bjelovar) you’d see why I’d be considered most similar to a Slovene. Shared dialect continuum(kajkavian), shared culture, genetics, traditions, music, and cuisine. But people online, especially my southern neighbours, like to think of me as pretending to be something I’m not and then just continue larping about how all Croats are the same people as them. It’s bs. Some Croats are close to Serbs and Bosnians due to THEIR dialect continuum, traditions, music, etc., but that doesn’t apply even close to all Croats. That’s what bugs me.

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jajebivjetar@reddit

Croatia and Slovenia have lived side by side for over a thousand years and have never been at war. A rarity on a global scale. They even built a nuclear power plant together and share it 50%. I don't think that's the case anywhere

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HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit

Greece and Türkei are literal USA and Russia

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MMortein@reddit

Bosnian relationships with Croatia and Serbia

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AstropathicRelay@reddit

Full hedgehog mode type of relations . That sometimes becomes so silly that it hampers road construction projects that would benefit even the Bosniak side. However they don't want parts of Bosnia to be better connected with either Serbia or Croatia out of fear that this may lead to further weakening of Sarajevos grip on those regions and it makes sense from their perspective , one cant say that it has no basis.

However I don't know how beneficial it is for a state to remain disconnected from everything and have weak road connections both between towns and to other regions or major road connections. Maybe there is a Bosnian space corridor I am not fully aware of which is able to bypass all of this. Absurd and quite hilarious , but thats Bosnia for you.

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Doesn’t Republika Srpska do its own thing? If they want Serbia to help them build highways, can Sarajevo stop that?

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AstropathicRelay@reddit

Not entirely .There are many ways sides can block one another from going ahead with whatever project through various means . Even if the planned route was initially agreed upon . Belgrade Sarajevo highway was a victim of one such blockade.

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StaGofu@reddit

We dont lose or gain anything if we are conetcted to Belgrade.The whole gig of Bosnia is getting a better conection to the EU wich in practice is the only thing keeping us running.Serbs besides controversies and just general conflict dont add anything to us.

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AstropathicRelay@reddit

>Serbs besides controversies and just general conflict dont add anything to us.

Keep repeating this to your compatriots daily , make sure to let them know . I am sure it will highly beneficial .

A bit curious if this applies to Croats as well ?

>We dont lose or gain anything if we are conetcted to Belgrade.

Damn , this probably would have been useful to know before the works on the other side started. How come Bosniak politicians agreed initially one has to wonder. Maybe they looked at the map and see a connection to a highway corridor and not necessarily the city of Belgrade. Silly me.

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StaGofu@reddit

You claimed yourself that "they fear that a better conetion would make them lose their grip".A better connection to Europe sure,but a better connection to Belgrade?Sure the roads are nice for the people who want to go on a trip or something but our grip would neither increase nor decrease if we had better connection to you guys.Currently the only problems in bosnia is not what Vucic thinks but for our local idiots to try to come to some agreements so that they can leach off on some more EU money.Serbia has no power over Bosnia,you guys are Russian puppets and we are EU puppets with and inside nutjob that is a russian puppet.We are on even playing field.

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AstropathicRelay@reddit

So you see no economical benefit in a shorter and better pathway to the east ? Turkey , Bulgaria , Romania , North Macedonia , Greece , Albania as well ? You do realize Serbia alone is like 15% of Bosnia's exports , third largest trading partner . Turkey is by no means insignificant when it comes to trade either. Trading with those partners from the east consists 20-30% of your overall trade . Yet you see nothing but tourism.

>Serbia has no power over Bosnia,you guys are Russian puppets

Such puppets we are that Vucic exported a decent quantity of arms to Ukraine l and even supplied your arms exporters with gunpowder which also exported munitions to Ukraine. Did you ever notice Zelensky saying anything bad about Serbia or Vucic in particular ,unlike Orban? Very interesting. Doesn't quite fit your description here. But you are not entirely wrong for both.

For the record I don't think we should be supplying any of the warring sides.

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StaGofu@reddit

You suply Ukraine because you are surrounded by the EU but in secret you wish to swallow Russian balls you know its true.Sure 30% is a large sum but its shrinking and it will shrink more we all know it.So basicaly now you are relevant but in no means significant and in the long run you will probably shirnk to 5% and so and so.

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Oh lol. When did that project fall through? Keeping Bosnia economically isolated is a good way for everyone to leave the country…

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Fancy_Brilliant_4599@reddit

Srpska is fucked by their own leaders. For serbs, nationalism is their weakness, so whoever talks the best nationalism bullshit he gets elected. Milorad Dodik is riding them like donkeys for almost three decades, no roads building or investments, he is promising them exit out of BiH while filling his pockets.

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Fancy_Brilliant_4599@reddit

Lol stop commenting on stuff you obviously dont know nothing about

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AstropathicRelay@reddit

https://sarajevotimes.com/belgrade-sarajevo-highway-serbia-is-building-bih-is-stalling-in-political-disputes/

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RoyaleKingdom78@reddit

Do any of you guys have racistic attitudes towards your own kind outside Ex-yugoslavians (at least they believe in different gods) and turks?

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RuikZerben@reddit

Albania and Greece

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Flimsy-Resident261@reddit

We still fighting over the sea

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Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit

Over a rock

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

yep.

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Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit

The greece-Turkey-Cyprus love triangle

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paulstefan@reddit

Turkey and Turkey

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Inner_Variety2826@reddit

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AgitatedDare2445@reddit

This but unironically, half of our population hates the other half and vice versa

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ATAKURT1453@reddit

if turkey is a balkan country, this means that islam is the most populous religion in the balkans. thanks

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

And how does that benefit you personally?

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sloxetheburduri@reddit

Don't mind him, this kurdish troll guy's been larping in both here and balkansirl. He's an ottoman nationalist.

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ATAKURT1453@reddit

kurdish troll ne anasını siktiğim salağı seni. bir de gitmiş bulgar köylüsüne yalvarıyor senin ben yedi ceddini şerefini onuru namusunu ölmüşlerini mezarında sikiyim

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_lavoisier_@reddit

wtf is that nickname “atakurt1453” lol with that level of intelligence, bro? it seems to me “mankafakurt” fits better with your attitude.

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roxellani@reddit

You slept through geography in highschool didn't you..

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ATAKURT1453@reddit

the funny thing is this ; even though 97% of Turkey is in the middle east, you never object when someone says turks aren't middle eastern.

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roxellani@reddit

No saar wi sekulir öropin.

We are within Balkan culture group as we share many similarities, thanks to Ottoman empire. The thing is, as far as i can tell, we are quite unique due to our geography. We share similarities with Middle East, Caucasus, Mediterrenean and Balkan cultures. It's truly a mixture of all of them. Some of us aren't middle eastern, and some of us indeed are. So it's not a clear cut case of either being middle eastern or not, it's not 1 or 0. We are partially Balkan, and partially Middle Eastern as well.

Edirne to Kars to Antioch, it's a spectrum and all sorts of cultures coexist. Being middle eastern is not an insult, i wouldn't necessarily oppose being called as such, but i would note that it's not that simple. Thrace isn't middle east, and southeast isn't anywhere near being Balkan.

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xesnoteleks@reddit

Bosnia and Bosnia

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Downtown_Ganache_254@reddit

Romania & Hungary

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kyrsideris@reddit

Is Hungary a Balkan country though?

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Minodoro@reddit

I second this.

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Hungary-Romania relations are child’s play compared to ex-Yugoslav and Greco-Turkish relations.

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Minodoro@reddit

Idk man, I have my own experience as a minority in Romania. Not the best. I don't have their experience, so ofc I will not pronounce myself in a topic I am not well prepared in.

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

I’m sorry to hear that. It is sad when people are treated poorly on account of their language/ethnicity. What I meant is that our countries haven’t had full on wars like Yugoslavia did in the 90’s.

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believewhatisayy@reddit

montenegro & macedonia

i got no idea what they think of eachother

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backdroper@reddit

Sorry, but there is only a country North of Macedonia

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BillieGin@reddit

gif

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wallachian_voivode@reddit

Man, the whole situation between Romania and Kosovo is honestly crazy, especially when you look at football! ⚽🔥

Since Romania doesn't recognize Kosovo as an independent country, games get super tense. Some Romanian fans start shouting political stuff in the stadium, and it gets the Kosovar players so mad that they’ve literally walked off the pitch before. 🏟️😤 The main reason behind all this is that Romania is scared that backing Kosovo's independence might set a bad example for other regions or minorities that want to break away. Because of that, there are zero official diplomatic relations between them. 🚫📜

But honestly, outside of sports, everyday Romanians and Kosovar (Albanians) actually get along! 🤝 Culturally and historically, there’s a vibe there, they share old Balkan roots and even have super similar words in their languages. 📜🌍

So yeah, they might be huge rivals during a 90-minute match, but they can easily chill and be friends over a coffee, ☕😊

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domets@reddit

Bosnia and Herzegovina

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RedScarySpectre@reddit

Serbia and Kosovo.

The complexity starts with figuring out if they are two countries or not. Depending who you ask 🤣

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Downtown_Log_7380@reddit

I don't see Kosovo here... Oh yes, almost forgot, it's included in this hand with the white eagle on it 👏😄

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AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit

Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.

In any case, refrain from posting or commenting in such a manner.

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Massive_Emu6682@reddit

I guess everyone? Isn't the whole deal with what makes the Balkans facinating the very complex relation between everyone? Thus it is really hard to pick one.

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Majestic_Potato_5408@reddit

Like half of the neighbours are weird. But no country here cares about its non-neighbours

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Negative-Reward-5765@reddit

România and the black sea!

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After-Singer9239@reddit

Serbia Albania 😆😆😆

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greekhop@reddit

Ελλάδα & Türkiye
Srbija & Shqipëria (+ breakaway Serb province)
Bălgarija & West Bălgarija
Ex Yugoslavs with each other
Magyarország and România

That's my ranking.

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absurd_whale@reddit

Moldova? Romania? Why not Estonia as well then if you have zero fucks about geography and culture

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Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit

Listen to their music, look at their food and tell me they are not Balkan. But you have no problem with Slovenia, though.

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uncsc@reddit

Romania is a very Balkan country. But I agree that Moldova is rather Eastern European, they're a whole different vibe

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit (OP)

The only one missing is Portugal.

Feel free to include it in your answers 🙏

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AstropathicRelay@reddit

Well you could classify this into :
Conflicting relations , Mixed relations and Friendly relations.

But when it comes to most interesting/complex : Bosnia and Turkey . Especially when it comes to history and its Bosnia's own internal dynamics.

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StaGofu@reddit

We dont care about turkey nor do we connect with turks as much as you would like us to.

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ddaattuullaa@reddit

Yes

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MambaEzez@reddit

Maybe albanians and serbs

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a_bright_knight@reddit

no complexity there whatsoever

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GoryGent@reddit

Nothing complex or interesting between us tbh

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Bardosaurus@reddit

Legit just stupid ugabuga mentality. Never had issues with Albanians, it’s so stupid

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GoryGent@reddit

People here are afraid to travel to serbia, serbians are afraid to travel in kosovo. Whenever i pass the border, nothing happens, people usually offer me a beer 🤣

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Bardosaurus@reddit

Of course! Literally wherever I am, I’ll be happy to sit and have a drink with a fellow balkan person. I work with a lot of Turks now and I love them!

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amazingamy19@reddit

Facts 😂

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Nothing_Special_23@reddit

Actually, it's Serbia and Montenegro.. and it's not even close.

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit (OP)

How come 😂

I don’t think that’s the case at all, and that is not a bad thing.

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YourNormaMinecrafter@reddit

Yes

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EL_ProfessionalHater@reddit

https://youtu.be/HfFx5UvzSxc?is=DhP78Zz5IiJuOS7S

This should answer your question

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit (OP)

😭😂

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This_Lion5856@reddit

For me its Greece and Bulgaria. We have the longest history in the Balkans and have shaped the whole peninsula the most, followed by Turkey.

Also the fact that we have gone from arch rivals to close allies is lowkey one of the biggest EU achievements.

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deadly_gerbil@reddit

Macedonia with itself

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j3ssyObey73@reddit

Serbia and Croatia is the easy answer but Greece and Turkey is a much older and more exhausting soap opera.

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Early-Show2886@reddit

I don't want to be drawn into this stereotype. Whenever you say you're of Turkish origin, these stereotypical comments immediately follow. And when you try to explain that not every Turk is from Turkey, you get wide-eyed looks because we Balkan Turks are completely forgotten in the Balkans. The best example is when these maps are posted by Muslims in the Balkans. Every single time, Dobruja in Romania is missing. So we're totally forgotten.

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Consistent-Boss-7670@reddit

Nadie habla de la mala fama que tiene los gitanos en los balcanes, y también entre rumanos y húngaros

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RedLemonSlice@reddit

Every thing happening on our peninsula is just a proxy war between Montenegro and Moldova.

Can't change my mind. I've seen The Truth.

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