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CavalierPumpkin@reddit

Oh wow, you're actually serious. Classic misunderstanding due to lack of tonal cues in text, I suppose.

I'm sorry, but having lived near school zones in a couple different countries, I really can't take any argument that has "100% of cars don't speed in school zones" as one of its premises seriously. Drivers may not be going full throttle all of the time, but speeding is habitual to the point where travelling at the legal limit on highways is widely and rightly considered to be unsafe because it is so far below the actual speed of traffic. In my mind, the only reason that cars don't have limiters is because the technology was not mature at the time they became widely adopted.

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danny_ish@reddit

I am serious, no worries about the tone mis-understanding I harbor no anger in this discussion!!

But I believe that very few consumers want limiters in production cars. Those of us that drive over the speed limit all think we do so safely, since there isn’t a 100 car accident every day on every highway. The nissan gtr, a sports car by a Japanese company, will use it’s gps to limit your speed on a public road in Japan and then allow full speed on racetracks and designated areas of acceptance. I could see wanting that on cars capable of autobahn speeds in countries without autobahns, and I drive a mustang that can easily do 170 mph in the us on highways that are signed 70. If I ever push my car above the flow of traffic, I know i’m being selfish/stupid in the pursuit of fun. But the government trusts me to not do 170 every chance I get, and I want the same trusts for my bicycle. Yet I could see some compromise. 100 on non racetracks? 150? Idk. I feel like there might be a middle ground, trying to play my own devils advocate here.

I’m in the legalize everything and train everyone camp for most things. And raise the bar for entry to things based on how deadly they are. Sports car? Should need an extra driving test. Lifted truck? Extra test. In my opinion that should apply to drugs and firearms as well, but this is not that conversation.

Any electric assist bicycle? State mandated insurance and registration will help with theft recovery and accidents.

Require that the fees be low for cheaper items like bicycles. Maybe waive registration fee’s for anyone over 65 or on disability

I gladly pay an extra $80 a year to my homeowners insurance to cover my e-bike. Starefarm in south Carolina allows me to include it in a bundle with the car, house, and recreational toys such as non-registered atv’s and dirt bikes. My atv adds like $150 a year. Not that cheap but I get enough use out of both of them.

At the end of the day it's the increase in speed that makes them more dangerous, so that's what we should regulate.

All the rest of it just leads to stupid loopholes.

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Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit

28mph is fast as fuck in the context of regular bikes. Imo anything over 15, maybe 20 mph shouldn't be in a bike lane.

DIYuntilDawn@reddit

I had to upgrade from an ebike that only went 20mph to one that will go 28mph. Want to know why, because of people in cars that would tailgate me. What finally pushed me to get a FASTER ebike was the guy who tailed me 1 foot behind my rear tire down a 2 way street with no bike lane for 500 ft while honking his horn because I was doing 20mph in a 25mph zone. Once I was able to turn, he then yelled out his window at me "that thing is a motorcycle, get a license plate" (this is what I was riding on)

It is literally safer for me to go 25mph than it is to go only 20mph BECASUE OF PEOPLE IN CARS!

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snoogins355@reddit

I had similar situations. People are insane

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Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit

Did you even read what i wrote? I have absolutely no problem with fast ebikes. Just stay out of bicycle infrastructure if you're basically riding a motorcycle.

You can't be going 25 mph and mixing with grandmas and schoolkods going 10-12 mph.

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xb4r7x@reddit

Most of the shared trails you're describing have speed limits.

There are shared trails near me that all have a 15 mph speed limit. I routinely ride my acoustic bike faster than that on those trails and then I simply slow down if it's necessary to accommodate other trail users.

It's not that hard.

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sexmarshines@reddit

I think people who have never spent significant time on a bicycle think it's much slower than it actually is.

And on the other end people who have never spent significant time on a typical cargo/commuter ebike think they're way faster than they are. They've also clearly never ridden a motorcycle to think that's a reasonable equivalence to anything but a Surron (or equivalent).

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xb4r7x@reddit

100% agreed.

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DIYuntilDawn@reddit

Did you read what I wrote? Because I don't know of many people who live long enough to become a grandma because they ride a bike 12mph down a road with no bike lanes.

AND the whole point of my comment was that it is NOT other bicyclists that forced me to have to go faster to be safer.

It is because I have to share sections of the road with PEOPLE IN CARS when there is not a bike lane available that if becomes a safety issue.

In the exact same way that someone on an ebike should not go faster than a kid or a grandma in a bike lane, just because they can, a car SHOULD have to slow down to avoid an bike or ebike that is sharing the road (when they have to) for the safety of everyone.

Now would the responsible thing to do be to limit all cars to a MAX speed of 10-12mph so that they could not possibly go any faster than the grandma on a pedal bike that might need to ride in the road for a short distance? OR is it just expected that the car should slow down in that situation, but still allow them to go faster when they are free to do so?

Because THAT is what you are arguing for, slowing EVERYONE down to the pace of the slowest traveler in order to FORCE them to go slow.

You could drive a car at 80mph down a residential street, what stops people from doing it all the time is not a mechanical limit on the speed of the car. What prevents people from doing it is the rules that say you will get arrested, ticketed, or jail time if you keep doing it. the solution is NOT to force all ebikes to only be a certain max speed. the correct solution is to set AND ENFORCE regulations that lead to unsafe conditions, so make the speed limit in a bike lane be 15mph, and then ticket people that break the law, repeat offenders get fines, their ebike impounded, or even community service or jail time. Or if it is a kid doing it, their parents get the punishment. But don't force people who have to ride an ebike in the road into an unsafe situation by handicapping their max speed, just because other people might violate safety rules if allowed to without being held accountable.

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UrbanEconomist@reddit

This guy gets it.

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sexmarshines@reddit

My man... I've gone over 30mph on a non motorized bike. Setting a 15mph limit in a bike lane next to 40mph+ car traffic is hilariously slow. Outside of going uphill I'd break that on every ride.

Just educate on responsible passing if it's an issue. Everything doesn't need government intervention to solve simple human interactions. And asking for enforcement of this is so far down the list of things that would need enforcing in any city. How would there possibly be resources available to meaningfully enforce this?

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jtk6@reddit

I’m with this guy. I upgraded to 28mph too. I was pushing 25mph myself on my first ebike, I could feel when the power would quit & then I knew it was all me pushing down the road. No sidewalks or bike lanes & cars were still lining up behind me, it was a 25 mph neighborhood backroad. Now I’m not using tons of energy to keep that speed up with my new class 3. Also my class 3 doesn’t have a throttle at all and neither did my first e-bike. But on bike trails with the family I stay under the 15mph max posted speed limit. Honestly though there are road bikes and gravel bikes that go faster on the trail than I do on my “fast” e-bike. Its a choice to bike responsibly, just like most other things

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stormdelta@reddit

You can't be going 25 mph and mixing with grandmas and schoolkids going 10-12 mph.

If you're talking about unprotected bike lanes as cycling infrastructure, I think you're imagining a context that doesn't actually happen in most US cities due to poor infrastructure design.

Yes I do. In the same way I think a marathon is a pretty good way to gauge an average runner's pace.

You're trying to include any random person who rented a Citi bike once in the definition of "cyclist".

I'm considering a cyclist to be someone who rides a bike regularly, not any random person who rides less than 5 miles a year.

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j_117@reddit

"Yes I do. In the same way I think a marathon is a pretty good way to gauge an average runner's pace."

LOL ok.

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xb4r7x@reddit

Yeah, you got me all figured out, lmao

And you're a typical sanctimonious Reddit know-it-all.

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j_117@reddit

Lol I'm sanctimonious?? But people who ride bikes less than 5 days a week aren't real cyclists and runners not training for a fucking marathon aren't real runners? 😂 Ok sport.

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xb4r7x@reddit

That's not what I said.

I said those groups were a good representative average of their respective communities and that including outliers in the averages skews the numbers.

I don't think professional cyclists riding 30 on flat ground should be considered in the averages either.

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j_117@reddit

"I don't think professional cyclists riding 30 on flat ground should be considered in the averages either."

But your top speed while riding downhill should be considered? Lol

"including outliers in the averages skews the numbers."

Ok what exactly is the point of an average where you pick and choose which values to include or exclude to make the average the number you want? 😂

But even if were to set the above aside - there are countless sites that site 10-20mph as average. Found any that support your anecdotal "outlier free" number?

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LiveCheesecake6080@reddit

But when one discusses limits you shouldn't look at the average. You should look at the limits.

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j_117@reddit

Ok. I honestly don't really care about what the limit is, that's not what I'm arguing.

/u/xb4r7x was arguing for a limit based on his skewed interpretation of an average cyclist's speed.

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LiveCheesecake6080@reddit

That's what this whole discussion was about. 28 mph being the limit for e-bikes.

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j_117@reddit

Uh-huh, and I was arguing with someone who was basing his argument on his incorrect idea of what an average cyclist's speed is.

I do not have a position on what the limit should be for ebikes, which is why none of my comments state an opinion on the matter.

Does that help clear things up for ya?

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Bermnerfs@reddit

Seriously, I typically travel between 12 to 15mph on the main artery of my local MTB trail system. This is a flat unpaved dirt/gravel path with rocks and roots.

On road 15mph is basically a leisurely pace for a lot of people, and way too slow for an upper limit IMO. Especially here in the USA where we aren't simply riding a couple of miles to the villiage bakery on cobblestone paths. Our commutes are much longer on average than Europe, and we don't have such tight congested streets either.

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skycra2y@reddit

Same here is Australia, when we say it’s around the corner , it’s probably 10-15 km away. lol

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Yes, people should be allowed to go at the residential speed limit for safety purposes. In the United States that’s 25mph. Therefore, class-3 bikes are still perfectly reasonable.

I usually ride ~25mph on my class-3 and I still don’t keep up with the manual, no-motor, non-e-bikes which frequently go closer to 30mph, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to be in the bike lane with them.

28mph might be where the motor kicks off, but getting my class 3 bike faster than ~24.8mph is a CHORE thanks to how heavy e-bikes are. I’m in good shape, but that’s the limit of what my thighs can handle. The official 28mph limit merely ensures I don’t run into the non-e wall, not that I actually go at 28mph.

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mataliandy@reddit

In most of VT, the unposted statutory default speed limit on rural highways and town roads is 55 mph, unless otherwise posted.

It makes for interesting driving on some of the dirt back roads, where drivers come around blind curves in the center of the road (which has no lines) at 55 mph with no margin for error if someone is coming the other way.

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Maxrdt@reddit

28mph is often too fast for bike paths... but people aren't on bike paths all the time. It would probably be out of place in the Netherlands or something, but on 25mph speed limit roads it prevents SO many dangerous passes.

People aren't at their maximum speed all the time, quit bothering legal class 3 riders and focus on the actual problem.

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Not to be rude, but we only care about what the average person uses their bike for.

Emphasis on average.

Average cyclists go 15mph.

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kangaroonemesis@reddit

I'm out of shape and not a professional cyclist. I ride a bike to commute or for fun.

15 mph is slow. 15 mph can cause dangerous situations in cities with poor or no bicycle infrastructure where you're forced into 40 mph traffic.

Stop pushing an agenda on everyone and target the few who are abusing emotos.

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SwiftUnban@reddit

I’ve had more close calls doing the legal speed limit here (for e-bikes) in the first little while than I ever did years after going 35+ mph with traffic.

unless you’re on a residential street or in a protected bike lane going that slow is incredibly dangerous.

It’s better to get hit at a low speed relative to the car that hits you, you may slide quite a bit but you’re turning all that kinetic energy into a slide.

Someone accidentally rams you doing 45mph while you’re doing 15 on the road? Good luck lol

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watisagoodusername@reddit

Going 28mph isn't going to make things better in that situation.

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SwiftUnban@reddit

if you're going 30mph and get hit by someone going 35mph in a heavy vehicle the blunt impact is severely reduced, but that kinetic energy has to go somewhere, it'll lose it in the slide - your body, arms, legs will be ground up for sure but you're more likely to be alive.

if you're going 15mph and someone hits you going 35mph your entire body is taking the direct impact of a 3,500lbs vehicle going over twice your speed.

not to mention if traffic is going significantly faster than you, you have people constantly trying to get around and pass you. Even if you're on the right and giving cars space we still have to be cautious and slow down a bit when passing to be safe. and if it's in a really, really congested area you'll probably have people aggressively passing you because they're dicks.

the day I could achieve traffic speed was the day that cars stopping being aggressive and riding my ass.

Keeping up pace with traffic is one of the safest things you can do (granted your bike handles the road at those speeds and you have gear on)

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GravelBikes@reddit

This exactly. And e bike laws on speed should reflect the reality of the road we're on + mixed with the capabilities of speeds a fast cyclist can hit. Or are these people going to call fast analog cyclists mopeds or motorcycles now if they go faster than the ebike speed limit? Or are these fast cyclist just unregulated and these bicycle specific speed laws only apply to ebikes? Personally, im athletic, been strength training for 12 years, and I ride a drop bar diy e road bike, and routinely go up to around 36mph ish on flats while pedaling if its a clear straight road, nothing to be cautious of (in those particular moments). Which i know is way faster and way out of other peoples comfortability, but also the speed limit on my roads are almost everywhere here 35mph minimum, tons of hills, and people speed well over the 35mph limit. It feels so much safer to get closer to a cars speed on the road if I can than to be around 15mph or 20mph, with no room to speed up very quickly to escape various scenarios.

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I think what is lost on the people who want to ride at extremely fast speeds on non-motorized paths is that the damage and injury in a collision are proportional the the square of the speed, so a collision at 28 mph / 45 kph will do four times the damage and injury as a collision at half that speed (i.e., 14 mph / 23 kph).

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Joose__bocks@reddit

I know it's anecdotal, but I go about 16mph at a leisurely pace on my gravel bike, no motor. I average about 13-14mph around the city, but in motion I'm going 16-20 unless it's up or down a hill. I do not train in any way, I just toot around the city.

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Prestigious-Ad8134@reddit

I think it's pretty context dependent. Going faster than 15 mph on some bike paths is super dangerous, but there are a lot of roads where you really feel like a bicycle going 28 mph.

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wturber@reddit

Probably depends a LOT on where you live. 28 mph is no problem where I live. The bike lanes are not congested. If they were, I'd just slow down. Also, if they were, the local municipality could put a speed limit on the bike lane.

And where I live, bicycles (without motors) get up to 30mph all that time going down hills. It is a pretty normal bicycle speed.

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Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit

Speed itself isn't the problem, speed differentials are. Downhill everyone goes fast so it's not a problem.

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wturber@reddit

It is both. And speed differential is only a significant issue of there is significant congestion. As I said, reasonable speed limits will vary depending on the situation. That's why roads have speed limits. The same concepts apply to bike lanes, multi-use paths and trails.

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CraziFuzzy@reddit

Hills on my commute have me over 25mph coasting...

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stormdelta@reddit

Imo anything over 15, maybe 20 mph shouldn't be in a bike lane.

Hard disagree if we're talking about the US. Most bike lanes here are glorified gutters/shoulders. Also, even gas-powered mopeds are often allowed to use unprotected bike lanes, so this kind of distinction wouldn't make much sense.

Especially in the context of more and more city streets being 20 mph limits. If you're going the same speed as the roadway that's where you should ride.

Where? 25mph is the absolutely lowest limit I've seen in any city near me, and most roads are 30+.

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wturber@reddit

Exactly. The current ebike regulations are OK - even if imperfect. The biggest problem is lack of enforcement.

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indolente@reddit

By your logic any small motorized scooter should be unregulated. Being highway legal (fast) doesnt define a motor vehicle.

The max assisted speed can be argued over, but having a throttle makes it a moto.

Also google says the average max speed for average adult is 15mph. Why would you give the ebike more speed than a normal bike?

This is just my personal opinion, but i think ebikes should have no throttle, and be limited to 15mph assist. Otherwise its a moto. Im not suggesting they be banned, just more regulated than ebikes.

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wturber@reddit

Why would you peg a speed LIMIT so that it exclude about have of regular bicycle riders. If the average speed of an adult is 15 mph, then about half of adults are going faster (assuming a normal distribution curve).

As many have attested to here ebikes routinely get passed by cyclists doing 25 mph. Fit cyclists can average 25 mph for hours when riding in groups. At 67, I can to 20 mph for extended periods of time.

80-year-old Giuseppe Marinoni set the Canadian age hour record of 24.24mph recently. That means that he cycled 24.24 miles in one hour without aid or drafting.

28 mph is dumb because we round to "5" in the U.S. But a 25mph assist limit for an ebike is perfectly reasonable and even desirable from a societal point of view. That extra 5-10 mph makes ebike use significantly more practical. If we want to fix something, lets get better bicycle infrastructure and stop bending over backwards to accommodate automobiles that are way more dangerous and far worse for the health of the general population.

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xb4r7x@reddit

Also google says the average max speed for average adult is 15mph. Why would you give the ebike more speed than a normal bike?

Google is simply wrong about that.

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While I see the value of going faster to reduce car use, if you're in a congested bike lane with mostly non-e-bikes the cutoff should be pedal-assist 20mph

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sckuzzle@reddit

Throttle to 20mph and pedal assist to 28 is the legal limit for an ebike in most states.

If you can switch the firmware on the fly police can test the bikes all day long & not identify anything illegal

Yes. But if they do find you doing it, you'll be in serious trouble. There were some car manufacturers that were caught doing something similar with their cars.

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I dont actually ride an ebike. I ride an analogue gravel bike. I'm just on this sub to stay up to date on ebike news & see what ppl are talking about

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CraziFuzzy@reddit

750W isn't getting to 50 very easily.

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nate998877@reddit

True, but police are largely ignorant to that kind of thing, so if its not clearly labeled they're going to have no way to verify if its 750w or 2000

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Dragonraja@reddit

UK police have this device where they can test the maximum speed. Plus they can look the bike up on their phone. Cops aren't as ignorant as you think they are.

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nate998877@reddit

There are bikes that allow you to flash the firmware back to stock on the fly if police pull you over and debaged, diy, or otherwise modified bikes aren't searchable for specs.

Maybe for your jurisdiction. I'm not allowed on some trails in Colorado, but as long as the motor is 750w or lower I can have both throttle to 20 and assist to 28. Even got the tax credit from the state to acknowledge it fits the legal parameters.

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sckuzzle@reddit

They don't check the legality on bicycles when giving a tax credit. And, sorry to burst your belief, but this is the actual law:

(c) “Class 3 electrical assisted bicycle” means an electrical assisted bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches a speed of twenty-eight miles per hour.

https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-42-vehicles-and-traffic/co-rev-st-sect-42-1-102/

You'll notice that there is no exception for throttle up to 20mph. It is "assistance only when pedaling" and that is it. If your bike gives throttle up to 20mph then it is not a class 3 ebike.

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John-AtWork@reddit

Which is true, but also kinda dumb.

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stormdelta@reddit

Technically yes, but in practice very few people would care.

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They-Are-Out-There@reddit

I’m good with throttle to 20 mph and 28 mph with pedal assist.

i don't think any of that is wrong but it feels like several very weak reasons to make throttle the delineating factor, even after considering those points top speed/acceleration still seem 10x more important to me

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lordredsnake@reddit

The anti-throttle attitude mostly stems from negative interactions with irresponsible riders (wheelie kids, delivery riders) who tend to use throttle-only while on sidewalks, the wrong way down bike lanes, lane splitting traffic, etc.

Up until relatively recently, most pedal-assist bikes required some physical effort to get up to max speed. That is no longer the case with some of the higher powered motors, so the distinction is becoming less relevant.

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wturber@reddit

Why? Explain yourself.

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Ok-Big2807@reddit

Without a throttle, I’m stuck driving everywhere of the AQI isn’t good enough. The ani throttle crowd often forgets that some people have physical limitations based on environmental conditions. I don’t use my throttle all time but, I literally can’t walk a quarter mile with an N95 mask on once fire season starts.

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Joose__bocks@reddit

Arthritis is another good reason. Some people can pedal for short distances but need to take a break. They're still safer to the general public on a bicycle than in a car. The argument starts to fall apart when you introduce minors and higher speeds.

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FoghornFarts@reddit

I have a throttle on my e bike and it's a safety feature when I'm at traffic lights on busy streets without a bike lanes. It's also super useful when I have my kids in the trailer.

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bsiu@reddit

None of these TikTok e-moto kids care about what is legal. They either convince a parent to buy them an “e-bike” or acquire a stolen one and terrorize the streets in packs as their hobby blasting past red lights and stop signs, on sidewalks. Too young to get a license, completely ignorant to traffic laws but full throttling down the street at 50+ mph for peer approval and social media content.

I couldn’t care less about what a responsible adult chooses to ride for a commute/leisure vehicle. They are not the problem.

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Physical_Delivery853@reddit

In California the existing laws are Class 1 & 2 E-Bikes: Assist up to (20 \text{ mph}). There are no minimum age restrictions in California, but children under 18 must wear a helmet.Class 3 E-Bikes: Assist up to (28 \text{ mph}). By law, riders must be (16 \text{ years}) or older

What's next is going to be a hard ban on all powered vehicles of any kind for kids under 16. That will make cops jobs a lot easier, they see a kid on an EBike it gets confiscated & the parents get a ticket

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Pretty-Yam-2854@reddit

But but my 55mph electric dirtbike that I don’t have a license for and isn’t supposed to be on the sidewalks, bikepath or road!

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brokengarage@reddit

Back in my day we called those Kawasakis

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footsnax@reddit

Yet there they are! Don't forget going the wrong way on a one way or just using the wrong side of the street and blowing through red lights. Those are strict requirements of the e-moto unlicense.

Almost got creamed by one the other day, with a passenger, no indication they were passing, no helmets, no light, in the middle of the country at night. Just plowed right past, no pedal motion noticed.

They're actually really reliable these days and super practical. Small, agile, keeps your hands free to carry groceries or whatever, and they fit under a desk or table. I commute on mine and run errands all over the place.
I won't deny we're all a little bit nuts but I think they're a legitimate and very useful commuter vehicle and in a lot of cases just as versatile as a bike or scooter.

TBH a lot of the scooters I see look sketchy and unstable as heck with the little tiny wheels, where at least a 16-20" EUC tire can eat a serious pothole and be ok.

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chrispark70@reddit

My comment was more of a joke and an envy of the young, like I wish they were around 30 years ago (or I was 30 years younger), They look quite fun and you have to be a bit nuts to get on one.

There were e-bikes back then, but they were few and far between and used Nimh or NiCD batteries, so they had much less range and were slower.

I know they make little EUCs, but aren't most of them now getting up around 100 pounds? AFAIK, the (light) little ones have smaller wheels and no suspension and fairly short range.

The inexpensive scooters that are limited to 14-20mph are OK, I guess, but I saw a video of some guy going down I95 in Florida passing the cars. A lot of these scooters are just way too fast, especially given how inherently unstable they are. Even as a younger adult (20 something), I probably wouldn't have wanted one.

When it comes to the commuting aspect of "electric micro mobility,"I think e-bikes are far more practical than either scooters or EUCs, especially if you want to carry something. Though, I suppose if you have a small EUC, bringing it into your office and putting it under the desk is a great option, while e-bikes are large and awkward and won't fit under a desk.

Yes, there are people who ruin all the fun for everyone else. They are why we cannot have nice things. Who gives a 12 year old an e-moto to ride in the streets? These same parents would likely never give their 12yo a 2-stroke moto to tear up the neighborhood streets, but put an E in it and appeal to 'all the kids have em' and parents lose their damned sense.

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atlasraven@reddit

I get pumped! I'm happy to see 1 less car on the roads. I don't care if that's bikes, scooters, or EUCs. You do see high powered enthusiast wheels but there are some low speed versions just for cruising around.

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WayAcceptable1310@reddit

The high power wheels are great for just cruising around too 😄

When you've only got one motor, one wheel, and no concept of "coasting", a bit of speed and power overhead translates directly to safety. Batteries are usually bigger too so you can take longer trips. I've known people who got hurt on an undersized, underpowered EUC or a onewheel because they smacked an electrical limit at a bad time, but of the group I ride with we probably have 30,000 miles amongst us with no accidents or major injuries that I know of.

There are definitely dudes and dudettes who ride recklessly, but the vast majority of us really do try to be safe and respectful when out and about.

I've got a heavy long-range wheel which is fast enough to keep up with traffic on a mid-speed road if I really need to but tbh that's safer than getting passed in the death gutter, protected only by a stripe of white paint.

I'm normally cruising the extensive multiuse trails near me or taking residential roads in the 25ish range, and that's plenty to get me anywhere I want to go explore. Heck, I've gone to the hardware store and brought back an armful of half-length 2x4s before just to see how many of my errands I could accomplish without using a car. Turns out, most of them!

Idiots on sidewalks going 25mph and groups of kids trying to takeover the Bay Bridge are infinitely more damaging than some Karen because they sour normal people to e-bikes who wouldn’t have cared otherwise.

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Physical_Delivery853@reddit

Clearly the solution is to apply the same rules we have always had. No one under 16 can ride an Ice motorcycle of any size on a road, the same ban should apply to ebikes. How is that not fair?

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the_climaxt@reddit

Throttle to ~30 should be considered the same as a 50cc moped. In Colorado, that's considered a Low Powered Scooter, requires insurance and registration, but allows you to ride in painted on-street bike lanes and park at bike racks.

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Accomplished-Dot-640@reddit

#4 but anything after #2 should require insurance.
I do also think all vehicles for road use should have a unique identifier. If that's a plate, or some sort of colour-based barcode. idc.

Not overly against people having to do some hazard/obstacle avoidance training either.

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xXMuschi_DestroyerXx@reddit

You’ve over complicated the hell out of what shouldn’t be an over complicated issue.

Let me start with the biggest take here I haven’t seen mentioned. I don’t want to recognize any government’s authority to outright ban certain types of transportation. If we can figure out how to let private civilians safely operate anything from mopeds to cruise ships, hypercars to jet planes, by god I just think we can figure out how to safely allow citizens to handle electric bicycles. It’s absolute fuckin nonsense I could store a gun safe full of rifles, a hypercar, a motorcycle, and a boat in my garage, but my government have an issue with a bicycle because it’s got a motor on it.

No. An outright ban is just plain old irresponsibly legislatively lazy. It’s the wrong answer and anyone willing to actually think about the issue should know it. We enjoy rights and freedoms here and we should be allowed to enjoy any mode of transportation, so long as we do it responsibly and safely.

Here’s my take. If it’s too speed is below 15 mph, it gets treated like a pedal bikes. If it’s over it must be treated as a moped or dirt bike. Over 50 I don’t even care what its top speed is, it just gets treated as a motorcycle. I mean seriously, it might as well just be a motorcycle, minus the combustion engine.

Require license plates and registration, headlights, tail lights, turn signals, all that shebang. Obvious outlaw their use on sidewalks. They must yield to pedestrians anywhere a car would.

The e-bikes of today that go to fast aren’t an issue because they exist, they are an issue because there’s inadequate regulations around them. any form of transportation would have the same exact issues e-bikes are having if they had as little regulation and enforcement.

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flukus@reddit

Yeah EU doesn't bother with all these different classes. It's just 25km/h max regardless of throttle.

Most of the EU doesn't allow a throttle beyond walk assist.

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Byproduct@reddit

And where besides Germany does anyone actually care in your opinion?

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flukus@reddit

I never said anything about enforcement.

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Byproduct@reddit

Well you directly replied to my comment about it

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Otaraka@reddit

Australia it’s 25 km and pedal assist only..

I think the general throttle bans are more about making sure it’s not lying about what its real top speed is without having to do extensive testing and essentially being a motorbike in disguise.

There’s a shop here that sells emoto with little fake pedals but do no real assistance where it’s clearly intended to go well over 20mph. It also has a speedo that stops at 25kmh. Entire industries are happening to get around the law on these issues and unfortunately the legal answers are screwing over everybody.

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there is no line. welcome all to r/ebikes where all are welcome except all you pedal karens.

The dynamic assist levels on the Bosch SmartSystem scratch that itch for me without a throttle.

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danny_ish@reddit

See, i ride at low enough speeds often enough that throttle or regular pedaling in a low gear is fine. But a high gear makes slow speed pedaling dangerous and slow speed assist useless

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qbg@reddit

I do the vast majority of my miles under muscle power only as I have the assist set to cut out at 10 MPH. I also don't have to worry about forgetting to downshift before coming to a stop since I have an internally geared hub.

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danny_ish@reddit

Nice, a very different style from most of us though

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bvz2001@reddit

But that comes with a significant cost, money wise.

My cheap aftermarket Bafang has a throttle that I use to get my cargo bike up to a few mph (usually around 1-2 mph or so) before I can start pedaling. I can't afford an ebike with a Bosch unfortunately.

When I am loaded down with 120 pounds, that throttle is the difference between a guaranteed launch and an iffy, wobbly start that might have me tipping over.

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kangaroonemesis@reddit

Same with Specialized Turbo series. 80% starting torque down to near 0 at speed is a huge nice to have.

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DIYuntilDawn@reddit

Your list is VERY flawed.

throwthere10@reddit

2 is the way.

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Sovereign1@reddit

7

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Celebratedmediocre@reddit

Pedal assist to around 30 is good enough for my commute. I changed my aventon wheel size settings to get to about 33 max and it feels way too fast most of the time

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LanceAvion@reddit

The designation for Class 1 and 2 are incorrect. Class 1 is pedal assist to 20 mph, while Class 2 is throttle assist to 20 mph. A speed limit of 15 mph is not within the US class system, instead it’s the EU speed limit (more accurately 25 km/h).

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WayAcceptable1310@reddit

Just stay under 30 and slow to 15-20 when there are other people around (or lower for kids, dogs, heavy traffic etc... I pass at a crawl for them). Past riding respectfully and keeping to 30 or below I couldn't care less what someone is riding whether bike, scooter, onewheel, whatever. Just being respectful of others, predictable, and not reckless is enough.

danny_ish@reddit

pirategirljess@reddit

Where does cruse control fit in. Well, I wrap a rubber hair tie around mine for constant throttle.

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Heavy_Bicycle6524@reddit

I have a pedal assist bike where the motor cuts out at 25Kph. That’s totally fine for me. I wouldn’t mind an extra gear or two though.

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Sussyfard6969@reddit

To me it’s 4

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single_plum_floating@reddit

I really do feel like 2 should be unregistered and anything 3+ needs more registrations and compliance requirements.

there are many bike shaped Chinese specials on the road that have no business travelling at 35km/h

And while a 45km/h ebike is fun (i know). They really, REALLY should have mirrors and indicator light requirements.

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Ok_Reception_3852@reddit

If you’re an adult, who cares? Your bike, your responsibility. Just don’t endanger anyone on the sidewalk or bike lane if you are 3 and beyond.

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I think throttle/pedal assist to 28mph is where the absolute limit should be. No power limit but maybe rather an acceleration limit. This is slightly in excess of the current limits of 28pas/20throttle but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll see more people riding in traffic with ebikes since most of the ones in traffic are far in excess of this. Nobody should be going faster than 28mph on an e-bike. Nobody should be riding an ebike like it is a slow moped either. The way this would ideally work would be that most people ride at 20mph with the extra 8mph as headroom. 25-30mph is right around where the handling dynamics start to change to be more motorcycle like anyway, based on my experience having used an ebike that tops out at 28. Either update Class 3 or create a Class 4.

Having better systems in place to be able to register and use electric mopeds that slot in between e-bikes like Aventon and e-motorcycles like Zero would be really nice, too.

Just my opinion,

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UltimateGammer@reddit

It's the throttle.

Throttles change the game.

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Worried_Document8668@reddit

no they aren't required on any way. Throttles aren't even available here in the EU and people get by on cargo bikes just fine. Mid drive and gears is key

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Moof_the_cyclist@reddit

Beyond #3 I see you as an e-motorcyclist. Get tags, insurance, and stay off paths and bike lanes.

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Worried_Document8668@reddit

imo the EU system has the clearest legal distinctions with fewer grey areas.

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frog_mannn@reddit

Class 3 with throttle is max

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Connect_Client_9620@reddit

I just bought an Ultra Bee, and I ride it both on the roads and trails. Got yelled at by a mountain biker two days ago, (he was just jealous cuz he has to pedal like a loser) and that was the only issue I’ve run into. Most people are just curious about the bikes

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nobikeno@reddit

Even #7 is questionable!

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_le_slap@reddit

8+ is fine with me

I have a motorcycle license and an umbrella policy. You guys whine too much.

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grand305@reddit

#4 for me.

This one. Higher speed, that by Texas law (30mph or higher) it counts as a motorcycle.

I read about it. Was like “oh yeah, we have that law”.

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ShakataGaNai@reddit

Pedal assist to 28. That's a getting spicey speed, it also requires a lot of work to get going that fast. So you're *pushing hard*.

8 and above should be licensed and plated but with relaxed FMVSS or CMVSS rules, 9 should be mandatory insurance.

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KaboodleMoon@reddit

6 is the final step for me too, but I can see the argument for 4, and would accept no throttle allowed with a PAS Limit of 28mph if that's the "easy" place to draw the line.

The biggest thing legislation wise, is it needs to be an EASILY DEFINED line that is also EASY TO SHOW.

The problem with limits on throttle control is some bikes are coming with/being modded with "legalize me" buttons that are kinda hidden, and it's just getting ridiculous how many hoops people are jumping through to ride an E-moto like an e-bike. So from the lawmaker point of view "No Throttles at all" just makes sense as a clear line for cops to look for.

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kingsinger@reddit

6 seems like a reasonable line, which is why it's the curent line in many US states.

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MentalThroat7733@reddit

I've been riding a 1500W non limited ebike for almost 7 years but I ride it like a "bicycle" and I'm not an ignorant twat so nobody cares. I even spent a while talking to a bylaw enforcement officer about it because he was interested in getting an ebike for his son. I regularly see people on regular bikes who are significantly less courteous than ebike riders. I'm glad enforcement is cracking down on emoto kids doing wheelies down the street and riding way too fast on public paths.

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RedditBot90@reddit

I think 20mph (class 1) is a touch too slow for pedal assist since many people can ride acoustic bikes in the high-teens/low-20s, so an e-bike offers minimal benefit if 20 is the cap.

My full opinion is pedal assist but it should be a percentage of your (meat power) wattage output; probably non-linear curve (higher output at lower speeds). Pedal harder, get more assist.

Anything with a throttle are emoto IMO.

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Ok_Log_2468@reddit

If they want to ride in a bike lane, 20 should be the cap for pedal assist imo. Sometimes people get faster than that in city bike lanes on acoustic bikes, but those are experienced riders who know how to safely pass slower riders. I don't care how fast people go if they're willing to bike in the car lane.

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dejavu2064@reddit

Pedal harder, get more assist.

Yeah the people riding push bikes at 20+mph naturally have a lot of experience riding bikes. Someone who has never rode a bike in their life suddenly riding 20+mph on their first day with a throttle e-bike is a hazard putting everyone around them at risk.

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WarcraftTurok@reddit

Most of mine are limited to typical speeds, I just swap the controller or motor for similar looking but higher spec parts. It's just not fun without any torque.

I wouldn't mind a compromise where we get a speed limit of 35-40 mph BUT we have all the torque we want to get up to those speeds quicker. 75% of the fun is in the torque and the other 25% lies between 30-40mph I can't do this whole "low speed low torque stay in the street and get hit by a car bc how dare you ride 15mph on the greenbelt but move at the speed of traffic while in traffic" attitude half the sub has.

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fullybonded@reddit

Sure. The problem is "chuds" who say the same thing as you will quietly go 50mph on the greenbelts when they think nobody is around simply because they have the capability.

If you aren't pedaling, it should be a motor vehicle. An EV motorcycle going 15mph isn't allowed on a bike path despite being bike shaped. Why not? Because it is capable of absurd speeds, is quite heavy, and requires no input from the driver other than a throttle.

Defining a vehicle by how individuals use it is an absurd position to occupy and unenforceable from a safety or legality standpoint. The capability of the vehicle is how we define it, not how its being used by an individual. You can drive a pontoon plane on a lake but that doesn't make it a boat. The rules governing its use are the rules for planes, but it still has to follow port speed while near the marina.

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Devils8539a@reddit

#4 Class 3 max.

Anything else fine, but stay off the bike paths cause you're not a bicycle at this point go ride with the cars.

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aussierecroommemer42@reddit

A combination of 2 and 5 is legal in my state. Throttle up to 6 km/h (~4mph) , pedal assist up to 25 km/h (~15mph). I'd be happy drawing the line at number 3 with a throttle

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MowieWauii@reddit

Are you an adult? 8. Are you a child? You don't need a battery or a motor.

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darkthewyvern@reddit

That’s not what this sub is read the rules

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nsfbr11@reddit

What is the point of this. The issue isn’t the vehicles themselves for the most part. It is the lack of regulation and licensing for the things that are no longer bikes. Class 1 in the US is 20 mph. Nothing is 15. EU is 25 kph.

For me, anything above 20 mph, and anything that does not require pedaling to provide significant power should require a registration, insurance and a license. The tricky part is what kind of license.

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RainbowUnicorn0228@reddit

I have a simpler definition.

Can you pedal it without the use of the motor and actually ride it easily? If yes, it’s an e-bike. If no. It’s an e-moto.

if you have a fucking throttle, it’s not a bike. end of story.

How are you all not embarrassed trying to fit in so hard with the bikes?

Just call it a moto, come to terms with your laziness, and call it a day

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KennyBSAT@reddit

My wife has one leg. She enjoys riding a bike, and can do so just fine from about 5-18 mph. But without a throttle she can't get from stopped to 5 mph.

Ebikes open up biking to a whole lot of people. You don't have to be elitist or ableist.

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Fourleafcolin@reddit

not being elitist or ableist. never said she couldn’t or shouldn’t do exactly as she pleases.

All i’m saying is that if you pull a throttle to accelerate, you aren’t “biking”

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o_Divine_o@reddit

There is no authority above self. It's my life and I'll do whatever I see fit..

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KappnCrunch@reddit

I actually don't care and don't even consider them a problem. I'd rather give teenagers ebikes than cars.

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S3ANbz@reddit

Idc what it is capable of as long as it appears like a normal functional bicycle. I hate it when people ride what is essentially a motorcycle on bike trails with pedals , its clearly not something youre pedaling .. i have the ride1up vorsa it goes 31mph on throttle but also rides like a normal bike and looks like a normal bike

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Schemeckles@reddit

Where I live it's "Throttle until 20mph".

Which to me is plenty fast.

I always see the argument of..

"Well, it should be faster, I can go faster than that on a regular bike"

Well, yes - most people can. However, unless their a trained cyclist - They're not doing that for more than a few seconds unless their going downhill.

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kenyasanchez@reddit

Nothing beyond 3 belongs on the sidewalk or a trail where pedestrians, pets and children go for recreation.

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mdjak1@reddit

Has to have working pedals with an adjustable height seat post so the pedals can be the proper length away for decent leg extension. It can have a basic thumb throttle that is more like an on/off button. I would say my Lectric XP4 750 is a proper e-bike and fits the above criteria. Technically it does fit into #6 but easily passes as #3.

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slowfox65@reddit

Class 1 - no throttle.

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EndSmugnorance@reddit

BlueMageNeedsFood@reddit

Just let me ride what I want and you ride what you want.

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DalinsiaValkyrPrime@reddit

I’m waiting til’ we get an actual full-on Harley Livewire on the sub and see people get all aggressive towards them even if they have literally everything legal.

I’m all for treating this like the main hub. I think of it like how in a game sub, take something like Apex Legends, there are subs for specific character mains. You got the main sub which has everyone, but then you got subs for the dedicated characters like Wraith, Wattson, and Loba.

In this sense, you got r/ebikes, but you also have r/hyperebikes, r/ElectricBicyclesONLY, and r/electricmotorcycles for examples.

As long as no one is actively promoting risky riding or running from the cops, I don’t really care all too much. People are gonna act stupid on some bikes and where it’s posted doesn’t change anything about the riders who do the dumb shit.

It should be known that I’m mostly from the ElectricScooter sub where most people don’t mind too much whether you have a WEPED Sonic that is practically death on a standing platform or a solid little Mac G2. A lot of us actually have both a small little commuter and a more enthusiast scooter. Most of our tension is more of a brand thing instead of legal thing.

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thereia@reddit

Militant_Triangle@reddit

You know, speed limits along with WEIGHT limits on bike paths solves this. Well, you got to enforce the law just like with cars. This the most stupid ass fight ever when enforced speed limits has a track record of working for HOW long now? If it weighs more than like 70-80 pounds, its a motorcycle or scooter kind of thing. Getting lost in the sauce about this crap is stupid. Its akin to an econo car VS ferarri kind of thing. And guess what, speed limits solve that.

Little shits doing street take overs is NOT an ebike issue. Its a little shit issue. Confiscate their shit, throw them in juvi, and fine their dumb ass parents. problem solved.

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Mr_Saturn1@reddit

I'm at #6, a throttle is fine but over 20 mph starts to make you a danger to pedestrians and other cyclists.

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am0x@reddit

After 3 it is an emoto.

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Snoo53769@reddit

Gearing on mtbs make 28 difficult

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Theworker82@reddit

gif

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Owz182@reddit

Pedal to 20 has been fine for me

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mityman50@reddit

Jesus this place

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mazarax@reddit

3½

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bradland@reddit

Draw what line? The line at what is/isn't an e-bike is a legal definition that varies by jurisdiction.

Outside of that, it's all semantics. To quote Shakespear, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Certain groups can call e-motos "e-bikes" all they want. It makes no difference.

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porkchop_d_clown@reddit

I would draw the line between 4 and 5, TBH.

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Hungry_Orange666@reddit

Speed and power limits are just very hard to enforce as they are just setting on the controller, and can be easly changed.

Only thing that can be really enforced is ebike mass and battery voltage.

If anybody really wants to remove risk to pedestrians and regular cyclist, regulation have to be based on vechicle mass and battery voltage.

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I'm in 3 and 4.

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APisAccounting@reddit

I have a lectric expedition, if you unlock it, it goes 28mph and it has a throttle. The throttle helps a ton with a loaded up cargo bike. I pedal and only use throttle to pick up and go.

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GoodEngineerBadSpy@reddit

Pedal assist only, torque sensing only. If you're not putting your own watts in, you're just riding a Rube Goldberg motorcycle.

/ducks

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bkey1970@reddit

robotcoke@reddit

How do you feel about bikes with pedals that aren't connected to anything except a sensor?

If you read the actual definitions I posted from the actual dictionaries, then you'll see that pedals need to directly propelled the bike in order to fit the definition.

Has to be 7.

Throttles are great for getting off the line at stops. Especially for your larger cargo bikes. But they should cut off at 20 mph.

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atlasraven@reddit

Even for disabled commuters?

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dejavu2064@reddit

Some people commute their whole lives on regular city/Dutch style push bikes while probably never once exceeding 20mph. I'm not sure why it would be a necessity.

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bvz2001@reddit

Yes.

If someone wants to go faster than 20 without pedaling (able bodied or not), then they need to get a different kind of vehicle. It can be a two-wheeled all electric throttle powered vehicle... but that isn't an e-bike, and needs to be regulated as a motorcycle or scooter.

If they are ok with staying under 20 then, like everyone else whether they are disabled or not, they can ride an e-bike which should not have very onerous regulations.

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DonnPT@reddit

Well, yes. There are a variety of vehicles for a variety of uses. Someone who can't operate a bicycle, needs another type of vehicle - and an e-bike is a type of bicycle.

I personally don't have anything against using a throttle to control the motor - it makes sense to me, and I suspect replacing it with a PAS system would make my recumbent much harder to ride. I'm just saying, we should have the rules we need, and if they don't suit the needs of the disabled, then e-bikes are not for them.

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Unfair_Baseball_8536@reddit

1

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chrispark70@reddit

Well, 2 and 3 are wrong. Class 1 is limited to 20mph, not 15 and cannot have a throttle.

Class 2 can have a throttle and is limited to 20mph.

The line, as you put it, is perfectly clear. An e-bike has some form of electric propulsion and follows the class system. If a bike has no electric propulsion, it's a bicycle. If it has electric propulsion and follows the class system, it's an e-bike. If a bike has electric propulsion and does not follow the class system, it is NOT an e-bike. What it actually is really isn't very important. For our purposes, we only know it is NOT an e-bike.

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nrsys@reddit

Up to #3 for a license free bike that anyone can ride.

4 to #7 (say up to 40mph) on a limited license/insurance similar to a moped. The speed is getting up to the point I would like to see some regulation and oversight, but still allowing fairly easy access.

Above that is a full motorbike license.

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IMO. If the e-bike faster than a 50cc scooter(around 35mph) that already requires motorcycle endorsement on your driving license, it shouldn’t be legal to ride without proper training/license and insurance.

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I have pedal assist to 28 and no throttle. I almost never use over 20, but has come in handy on occasion when i want to get off a busy road quickly.

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scots@reddit

Nothing over Class 2 allowed in any space that is shared with pedestrian foot traffic. Trails, walking paths, parking lots, residential streets, period.

Everything over, license, plates, helmet, restricted to street use only.

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album_iura@reddit

Below line 2 you should have to have a license & insurance

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I disagree. Safety wise speed is the most important factor in collisions or crashes. I think getting overly fixated on how the bike is controlled isn't really meaningful (a 15 mph pedal assist vs a 15 mph throttle riding thru a park for example).

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bvz2001@reddit

I am mostly with you. I think I am somewhere between 6 and 7. personally I would prefer that people have to do some pedaling, but that excludes a fairly large population of people who can't. So I am down with assist (either pedal assist or throttle) up to 20mph. Above that, it should all be human powered (i.e. if you have the juice, go for it. But it will be pretty rare).

The issue is that if we want human scaled communities (we do) then we will need to have speed limits in our cities that reflect that. So all vehicles, even cars, should be capped at around 20mph in the city*. They are already starting this in the Netherlands and it is having huge benefits. E-bikes should be a part of this as well.

*If you can pedal your acoustic bike faster than that, then I say go for it (within reason - if you are using a mixed use trail then hell no)

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123ihavetogoweeeeee@reddit

9

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ah-Quinncidence@reddit

4 is an E-bike 5 & 6 is moped 7 is scooter 8 is a motorcycle

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flecktyphus@reddit

2.

I’m European and apparently so old I get annoyed by all the death traps on this sub 😂

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ResidentCoder2@reddit

Personally, and in my subjective opinion? The moment your pedals become fully cosmetic, it is no longer a bike of any kind. I don't care if you have a throttle, PAS, or an incredibly powerful motor. If you took the battery out, or if it were to die, could you theoretically still get it home by pedaling? If so, I think it's a bike.

Legally, though? I strongly believe no e-bike has any business going over 25mph with the assist alone. I'd even go so far as to say 20.

I currently have the Juliet from Eahora and commute with it. The speedometer claims I go a tad over 30, but independent readings confirm the assist only goes to 28. I have had a few accidents, and let me tell ya... the faster you're going, it gets exponentially worse. Even though it would negatively affect me and my commute time, I would 100% support laws and regulations that knee cap ebikes down to 20mph using either form of assist, alongside requiring pedals that function as intended.

The line for what?

Private ownership on private land? Ride whatever you want. 7+

You want to take your "bike" on city roads and bike paths and dirt paths that are only for bikes or pedestrians? The line should be between 2 and 3. Otherwise your emoto should be registered and insured like other motor vehicles on the road.

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YobaiYamete@reddit (OP)

The line for what?

For what's allowed here, since every other thread is people screaming about "emotos" being posted here when most are just class 2 ebikes

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CraziFuzzy@reddit

I think the statement that 'most' are class 2 is pretty off base.. most I've seen complained about are 3000W or more.

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samthekitnix@reddit

6 but has to have pedals and assist up to the same speed as the throttle

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Realistic_Mix3652@reddit

Pedal assist to 20 mph allowed on separated bike trails. If you have a class 3 you have to move into the lane to ride at 28 mph. Throttles should be allowed, but they should cutout at a good hill climbing speed of 6mph that way they can be useful for people who live in hilly cities like Seattle and SF without them being used to zoom about like e-motos.bAnything above Class 3 is a e-moto and can exist just fine, but it should not be considered a bicycle and can't use bicycle and shared use bike/ped facilities same restrictions that moto-scooters have up to motorcycles depending on weight, power, speed. They aren't bicycles anymore and that's what I care about. Before everyone screams at me about their friend with a disability I think throttles should be able to be installed by a certified bike shop with a doctors note that it is need. This is the same process that people go through to get a suicide knob or hand controls added to a car to make it accessible.

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megapasha@reddit

As long as it's not blasting at 28+ MPH through bike lanes and obey speed limit on mixed used trails - I'm fine with either of those.

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boyengabird@reddit

7

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