I feel like nobody really agrees where the line is. To me, the line is #7 and beyond
Posted by YobaiYamete@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 525 comments
richardlpalmer@reddit
The degree and method of assist is a different topic than if it's an e-bike or e-moto. If it's a bicycle with assist, it's an e-bike. If it isn't even a bicycle, then it's an e-moto.
KyOatey@reddit
I always get downvoted, but I believe that, just like cars, it should be on the rider to obey laws/rules of the road/path, and not a baked-in feature of the hardware.
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
Not going to downvote you since it's not an unreasonable argument, imo, but should also probably be noted that that strategy historically hasn't worked out great when it comes to cars.
danny_ish@reddit
? Yes it has! 100% of cars on the road can double the speed limit of school zones. 100% of cars on the road do not do that
RoboRhet@reddit
100% of the cars legally driven on the road require licensing and insurance. Many places also require regular safety inspections.
danny_ish@reddit
Im cool with that being applied to e bikes as well if that is the trade off for not being limited to a government set top speed
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
So, to clarify, at that point, we could functionally just classify any two-wheeled vehicle with any type of motor, whether electric or internal combustion, as a motorcycle and regulate accordingly, requiring full licensure, insurance, registration, etc. across the board?
(To be clear, I'm not immediately opposed and it wouldn't be a massive inconvenience for me personally since I already have a motorcycle license and already insure my ebike so it would just be a matter of finding a place to bolt on a licence plate, but I feel like that shift would probably tank or at very least radically transform the industry.)
danny_ish@reddit
I just wrote another comment but I do think we should be power/speed dependent. In the same way that a v6 mustang is cheaper to insure than a v8. I also don’t know about registration but requiring insurance for use on public property I could see. My atv and e bike are insured but neither are registered. Both have serial numbers, not vin’s. The atv can do 65 and makes a bunch of hp, and weighs several hundred lbs. i dont want the state to allow me to use it on public property that isn’t 100% dedicated to it like an atv park. I do want the state and insurance to realize that a 70 lb e bike at 28 mph poses very little risk and therefore either doesn’t need registration or needs a cheap one. I could see $5 a year or something for it.
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
You dropped this: /s
danny_ish@reddit
No i mean legitimately, we get a few people speeding daily but on the whole 99% of car drivers are not topping out their car regularly. Not regulating cars top speed has statistically worked out pretty well. The same should happen to E bikes
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
Oh wow, you're actually serious. Classic misunderstanding due to lack of tonal cues in text, I suppose.
I'm sorry, but having lived near school zones in a couple different countries, I really can't take any argument that has "100% of cars don't speed in school zones" as one of its premises seriously. Drivers may not be going full throttle all of the time, but speeding is habitual to the point where travelling at the legal limit on highways is widely and rightly considered to be unsafe because it is so far below the actual speed of traffic. In my mind, the only reason that cars don't have limiters is because the technology was not mature at the time they became widely adopted.
danny_ish@reddit
I am serious, no worries about the tone mis-understanding I harbor no anger in this discussion!!
But I believe that very few consumers want limiters in production cars. Those of us that drive over the speed limit all think we do so safely, since there isn’t a 100 car accident every day on every highway. The nissan gtr, a sports car by a Japanese company, will use it’s gps to limit your speed on a public road in Japan and then allow full speed on racetracks and designated areas of acceptance. I could see wanting that on cars capable of autobahn speeds in countries without autobahns, and I drive a mustang that can easily do 170 mph in the us on highways that are signed 70. If I ever push my car above the flow of traffic, I know i’m being selfish/stupid in the pursuit of fun. But the government trusts me to not do 170 every chance I get, and I want the same trusts for my bicycle. Yet I could see some compromise. 100 on non racetracks? 150? Idk. I feel like there might be a middle ground, trying to play my own devils advocate here.
I’m in the legalize everything and train everyone camp for most things. And raise the bar for entry to things based on how deadly they are. Sports car? Should need an extra driving test. Lifted truck? Extra test. In my opinion that should apply to drugs and firearms as well, but this is not that conversation.
Any electric assist bicycle? State mandated insurance and registration will help with theft recovery and accidents.
Require that the fees be low for cheaper items like bicycles. Maybe waive registration fee’s for anyone over 65 or on disability
I gladly pay an extra $80 a year to my homeowners insurance to cover my e-bike. Starefarm in south Carolina allows me to include it in a bundle with the car, house, and recreational toys such as non-registered atv’s and dirt bikes. My atv adds like $150 a year. Not that cheap but I get enough use out of both of them.
Thanks for the discussion, is my pov understandable?
bopdadop@reddit
Yeah but...40000 people are killed by cars every year in the US alone. Not a good look
danny_ish@reddit
Scale how many miles are driven by cars every year and then how many miles are driven by E bikes every year and that works out to a rounding error if ebikes have unlimited top speed
WayAcceptable1310@reddit
Yeah, that's always the tough part of it but consistent enforcement and good infrastructure design (traffic calming measures) are proven to help. Getting that stuff implemented instead of just the 'one more lane' thing is like yelling into the void though
Brillegeit@reddit
And require license and registration like a car?
lfcitz@reddit
The problem is zero enforcement. We get these roving bands of kids riding their emotos on sidewalks, on the wrong side of the street, blowing through red lights. I remember getting ticketed on a bike in my day. Nothing happens to these kids.
danny_ish@reddit
Correct! I daily drive a car that can go 175 mph. I do those speeds on raceways, and occasionally do somewhere between that and the speed limit on empty stretches of interstate. Meanwhile, my bike is regulated to +- 1 mph
xb4r7x@reddit
I think we overcomplicate this shit.
If it can exceed 28mph using its motor, it's a motorcycle.
If it can't, it's a bicycle.
At the end of the day it's the increase in speed that makes them more dangerous, so that's what we should regulate.
All the rest of it just leads to stupid loopholes.
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
28mph is fast as fuck in the context of regular bikes. Imo anything over 15, maybe 20 mph shouldn't be in a bike lane.
Especially in the context of more and more city streets being 20 mph limits. If you're going the same speed as the roadway that's where you should ride.
APisAccounting@reddit
Regular bicyclist pass me on a protected trail when I'm on an e bike and they are on an acoustic bicycle. They are going 15-25mph while I'm going 15mph.
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
Okay so? You can pedal an ebike to 25 too, without the motor.
APisAccounting@reddit
So should regular bicyclists going 20-25mph not be allowed on bike trails?
68red@reddit
It’s the law in some places. Where limits aren’t posted, though, it’s a matter of both courtesy and safety to travel at a speed that‘s aligned with the other traffic you’re sharing the trail with: for me, that seems to be around 15 mph or lower on a busy multi-use trail, or to 20 mph on trails with no or little traffic. If I want to go over 20, I ride on the road, not on a trail.
celeste_ferret@reddit
The speed limit on many (most?) bike trails is 15mph.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
the trail SHOULD have posted speed limit, in which case, it would apply to all vehicles on the road. Some states don't actually allow localities to enforce speed limits on bike trails, however.
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
Yes in my opinion going much faster than 20 on flat ground you shouldn't be on bike infrastructure that's not designed for that speed.
But in my experience, fast road bikers are pretty good at not using bike lanes
mataliandy@reddit
LOL! I love "acoustic bicycle"!
celeste_ferret@reddit
I don't get it though. My regular bike is practically silent while my ebike has the whir and whine of the motor.
UrbanEconomist@reddit
Acoustic = not electric. Think guitars.
celeste_ferret@reddit
Acoustic literally means sound. Electric bikes make sound.
UrbanEconomist@reddit
It’s intended to be clever, not literal.
fishforce1@reddit
The people in your community must be super athletic. The average speed for cyclists uploading their rides to Strava is around 14mph. I can say riding around that on the rail trails in my area, I'm passing most people.
DIYuntilDawn@reddit
I had to upgrade from an ebike that only went 20mph to one that will go 28mph. Want to know why, because of people in cars that would tailgate me. What finally pushed me to get a FASTER ebike was the guy who tailed me 1 foot behind my rear tire down a 2 way street with no bike lane for 500 ft while honking his horn because I was doing 20mph in a 25mph zone. Once I was able to turn, he then yelled out his window at me "that thing is a motorcycle, get a license plate" (this is what I was riding on)
It is literally safer for me to go 25mph than it is to go only 20mph BECASUE OF PEOPLE IN CARS!
snoogins355@reddit
I had similar situations. People are insane
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
Did you even read what i wrote? I have absolutely no problem with fast ebikes. Just stay out of bicycle infrastructure if you're basically riding a motorcycle.
You can't be going 25 mph and mixing with grandmas and schoolkods going 10-12 mph.
xb4r7x@reddit
Most of the shared trails you're describing have speed limits.
There are shared trails near me that all have a 15 mph speed limit. I routinely ride my acoustic bike faster than that on those trails and then I simply slow down if it's necessary to accommodate other trail users.
It's not that hard.
sexmarshines@reddit
I think people who have never spent significant time on a bicycle think it's much slower than it actually is.
And on the other end people who have never spent significant time on a typical cargo/commuter ebike think they're way faster than they are. They've also clearly never ridden a motorcycle to think that's a reasonable equivalence to anything but a Surron (or equivalent).
xb4r7x@reddit
100% agreed.
DIYuntilDawn@reddit
Did you read what I wrote? Because I don't know of many people who live long enough to become a grandma because they ride a bike 12mph down a road with no bike lanes.
AND the whole point of my comment was that it is NOT other bicyclists that forced me to have to go faster to be safer.
It is because I have to share sections of the road with PEOPLE IN CARS when there is not a bike lane available that if becomes a safety issue.
In the exact same way that someone on an ebike should not go faster than a kid or a grandma in a bike lane, just because they can, a car SHOULD have to slow down to avoid an bike or ebike that is sharing the road (when they have to) for the safety of everyone.
Now would the responsible thing to do be to limit all cars to a MAX speed of 10-12mph so that they could not possibly go any faster than the grandma on a pedal bike that might need to ride in the road for a short distance? OR is it just expected that the car should slow down in that situation, but still allow them to go faster when they are free to do so?
Because THAT is what you are arguing for, slowing EVERYONE down to the pace of the slowest traveler in order to FORCE them to go slow.
You could drive a car at 80mph down a residential street, what stops people from doing it all the time is not a mechanical limit on the speed of the car. What prevents people from doing it is the rules that say you will get arrested, ticketed, or jail time if you keep doing it. the solution is NOT to force all ebikes to only be a certain max speed. the correct solution is to set AND ENFORCE regulations that lead to unsafe conditions, so make the speed limit in a bike lane be 15mph, and then ticket people that break the law, repeat offenders get fines, their ebike impounded, or even community service or jail time. Or if it is a kid doing it, their parents get the punishment. But don't force people who have to ride an ebike in the road into an unsafe situation by handicapping their max speed, just because other people might violate safety rules if allowed to without being held accountable.
UrbanEconomist@reddit
This guy gets it.
sexmarshines@reddit
My man... I've gone over 30mph on a non motorized bike. Setting a 15mph limit in a bike lane next to 40mph+ car traffic is hilariously slow. Outside of going uphill I'd break that on every ride.
Just educate on responsible passing if it's an issue. Everything doesn't need government intervention to solve simple human interactions. And asking for enforcement of this is so far down the list of things that would need enforcing in any city. How would there possibly be resources available to meaningfully enforce this?
jtk6@reddit
I’m with this guy. I upgraded to 28mph too. I was pushing 25mph myself on my first ebike, I could feel when the power would quit & then I knew it was all me pushing down the road. No sidewalks or bike lanes & cars were still lining up behind me, it was a 25 mph neighborhood backroad. Now I’m not using tons of energy to keep that speed up with my new class 3. Also my class 3 doesn’t have a throttle at all and neither did my first e-bike. But on bike trails with the family I stay under the 15mph max posted speed limit. Honestly though there are road bikes and gravel bikes that go faster on the trail than I do on my “fast” e-bike. Its a choice to bike responsibly, just like most other things
stormdelta@reddit
If you're talking about unprotected bike lanes as cycling infrastructure, I think you're imagining a context that doesn't actually happen in most US cities due to poor infrastructure design.
E.g. there's a road near me I routinely do 28mph on in the bike lane. I can count on one hand the number of other bikes I've seen on that road in the last several months, and all but one of those was also an ebike, because no sane cyclist on a normal bike is using that bike lane when it has traffic going 40mph+.
sexmarshines@reddit
I mean even if this context that clearly doesn't happen was routinely happening, those unprotected lanes don't have any barrier to ebikes simply going around by exiting the bike lane. I don't understand why you'd need to ban them entering this bike lane that was actually BARELY utilized at all when there weren't ebikes around.
sexmarshines@reddit
Man people love throwing around this motorcycle word when they clearly have never ridden a motorcycle lol.
I've gone over 30 on a non motorized bike. Should I also be disqualified from interfering with these grandmas and school kids that you see cycling around?
In my city the cycling infrastructure was barely used until ebikes and scooters became more common. I would know because I used it for cycling. So to me it's always going to be a tough battle for people to argue it needs to be non motorized cyclists only - which when that was the case the result was nearly no one actually used this infrastructure at all.
I go up to class 3 speeds when not on shared pedestrian paths. But I don't pass other cyclists at that speed unless there's adequate space to go around. At that point what's the difference between cars going around?
Joose__bocks@reddit
I agree with you. With that being said I go as fast as 28mph on roads because it's 35 and everyone is going 45. Don't worry there isn't another pedestrian or cyclist for miles, just lifted trucks all day.
ubelmann@reddit
I would say 28mph is pretty fast for a bike, but it’s not like it’s unrealistic for bikes to reach those speeds, especially on downhill terrain. With local speed limits around 25mph here, I don’t mind ebikes that can keep pace with car traffic.
danny_ish@reddit
I have an acoustic mountain bike and a e-bike beach cruiser. Both can easily be pedaled at 20 mph, the e bike with assist can do whatever speed I can pedal to, but throttle will do 20 only. It makes sense to me, both bikes can hit 35 on a steep downhill but there is like 2 in town
Calvin--Hobbes@reddit
Sounds like my town
xb4r7x@reddit
28 is not fast as fuck in the context of regular bikes at all - especially down a hill. I average 20-22 on my road bike all the time on flat ground. Exceed 30 every time I ride. My fastest speed ever is 62.5
I think 28 is plenty reasonable. I actually struggle to ride 15mph... it's far too slow.
j_117@reddit
Lol we get it, you're a fit, seasoned cyclist. Congrats, well done!
Do you not understand that you're above average, and thus your opinion on what's "fast" is a little skewed? Or are you just looking for an opportunity to flex? 😂
xb4r7x@reddit
I don't believe that I am above average. I'm typically at the back of the pack at organized events.
I think the assumption that 15mph being an average (which nobody can provide any source data on, by the way) is just incorrect.
j_117@reddit
Do you think organized cycling events is a good way to gauge the speed of an AVERAGE cyclist???
But regardless, Google what "average" is and pick a result that meets your standards. I'm seeing ranges from 10 mph to around 20 mph
xb4r7x@reddit
Yes I do. In the same way I think a marathon is a pretty good way to gauge an average runner's pace.
You're trying to include any random person who rented a Citi bike once in the definition of "cyclist".
I'm considering a cyclist to be someone who rides a bike regularly, not any random person who rides less than 5 miles a year.
j_117@reddit
"Yes I do. In the same way I think a marathon is a pretty good way to gauge an average runner's pace."
LOL ok.
xb4r7x@reddit
Yeah, you got me all figured out, lmao
And you're a typical sanctimonious Reddit know-it-all.
j_117@reddit
Lol I'm sanctimonious?? But people who ride bikes less than 5 days a week aren't real cyclists and runners not training for a fucking marathon aren't real runners? 😂 Ok sport.
xb4r7x@reddit
That's not what I said.
I said those groups were a good representative average of their respective communities and that including outliers in the averages skews the numbers.
I don't think professional cyclists riding 30 on flat ground should be considered in the averages either.
j_117@reddit
"I don't think professional cyclists riding 30 on flat ground should be considered in the averages either."
But your top speed while riding downhill should be considered? Lol
"including outliers in the averages skews the numbers."
Ok what exactly is the point of an average where you pick and choose which values to include or exclude to make the average the number you want? 😂
But even if were to set the above aside - there are countless sites that site 10-20mph as average. Found any that support your anecdotal "outlier free" number?
LiveCheesecake6080@reddit
But when one discusses limits you shouldn't look at the average. You should look at the limits.
j_117@reddit
Ok. I honestly don't really care about what the limit is, that's not what I'm arguing.
/u/xb4r7x was arguing for a limit based on his skewed interpretation of an average cyclist's speed.
LiveCheesecake6080@reddit
That's what this whole discussion was about. 28 mph being the limit for e-bikes.
j_117@reddit
Uh-huh, and I was arguing with someone who was basing his argument on his incorrect idea of what an average cyclist's speed is.
I do not have a position on what the limit should be for ebikes, which is why none of my comments state an opinion on the matter.
Does that help clear things up for ya?
Bermnerfs@reddit
Seriously, I typically travel between 12 to 15mph on the main artery of my local MTB trail system. This is a flat unpaved dirt/gravel path with rocks and roots.
On road 15mph is basically a leisurely pace for a lot of people, and way too slow for an upper limit IMO. Especially here in the USA where we aren't simply riding a couple of miles to the villiage bakery on cobblestone paths. Our commutes are much longer on average than Europe, and we don't have such tight congested streets either.
skycra2y@reddit
Same here is Australia, when we say it’s around the corner , it’s probably 10-15 km away. lol
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
Bro if i go 20 on flat land i'm faster than 99% of riders. Average person isn't riding a road bike, they're riding a 20 year old walmart special with a milk crate full of groceries on the back.
hi_jack23@reddit
Considering you’re on a road bike and have gone above 60 I’d say you’re definitely an outlier compared to the general population, but I’ll agree that in the context of general bikes and bicyclists 28 isn’t all that fast.
However, 28mph is absolutely fast as fuck in the context of the average adult that probably hasn’t ridden a bike in years or their 13 year old they buy it for.
digitalaudiotape@reddit
Yeah 28 isn't drastically faster than regular bikes.
When I had an ebike that was 20 mph max lycra bros would still pass me on the popular exercise paths in NYC.
i__hate__you__people@reddit
Yes, people should be allowed to go at the residential speed limit for safety purposes. In the United States that’s 25mph. Therefore, class-3 bikes are still perfectly reasonable.
I usually ride ~25mph on my class-3 and I still don’t keep up with the manual, no-motor, non-e-bikes which frequently go closer to 30mph, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to be in the bike lane with them.
28mph might be where the motor kicks off, but getting my class 3 bike faster than ~24.8mph is a CHORE thanks to how heavy e-bikes are. I’m in good shape, but that’s the limit of what my thighs can handle. The official 28mph limit merely ensures I don’t run into the non-e wall, not that I actually go at 28mph.
mataliandy@reddit
In most of VT, the unposted statutory default speed limit on rural highways and town roads is 55 mph, unless otherwise posted.
It makes for interesting driving on some of the dirt back roads, where drivers come around blind curves in the center of the road (which has no lines) at 55 mph with no margin for error if someone is coming the other way.
Maxrdt@reddit
28mph is often too fast for bike paths... but people aren't on bike paths all the time. It would probably be out of place in the Netherlands or something, but on 25mph speed limit roads it prevents SO many dangerous passes.
People aren't at their maximum speed all the time, quit bothering legal class 3 riders and focus on the actual problem.
AradynGaming@reddit
Constantly telling my teen that she has to be full throttle (Max 20mph on her scooter) on the street where we live, and cars still tailgate her at that speed because they want to go 30-35mph. I am a believer that it should be a flat 15 & under for sidewalks only, 28 without a license, 29+ = licensed vehicle.
Dull_Ad5440@reddit
28mph is fast as fuck in the context of regular bikes. Imo anything over 15, maybe 20 mph shouldn't be in a bike lane.
We have a winner.
kangaroonemesis@reddit
I typically ride my Specialized trail bike on the road over 20. Especially on downhill sections or when trying to clear an intersection.
My Turbo Vado e-bike is pedal assist up to 28 mph with no throttle, but weighs significantly more. I typically ride this one slower simply due to weight and handling. The motor is programmed to mostly help starting. Pushing that bike about 25 is hard work.
indolente@reddit
Not to be rude, but we only care about what the average person uses their bike for.
Emphasis on average.
Average cyclists go 15mph.
kangaroonemesis@reddit
I'm out of shape and not a professional cyclist. I ride a bike to commute or for fun.
15 mph is slow. 15 mph can cause dangerous situations in cities with poor or no bicycle infrastructure where you're forced into 40 mph traffic.
Stop pushing an agenda on everyone and target the few who are abusing emotos.
SwiftUnban@reddit
I’ve had more close calls doing the legal speed limit here (for e-bikes) in the first little while than I ever did years after going 35+ mph with traffic.
unless you’re on a residential street or in a protected bike lane going that slow is incredibly dangerous.
It’s better to get hit at a low speed relative to the car that hits you, you may slide quite a bit but you’re turning all that kinetic energy into a slide.
Someone accidentally rams you doing 45mph while you’re doing 15 on the road? Good luck lol
watisagoodusername@reddit
Going 28mph isn't going to make things better in that situation.
SwiftUnban@reddit
if you're going 30mph and get hit by someone going 35mph in a heavy vehicle the blunt impact is severely reduced, but that kinetic energy has to go somewhere, it'll lose it in the slide - your body, arms, legs will be ground up for sure but you're more likely to be alive.
if you're going 15mph and someone hits you going 35mph your entire body is taking the direct impact of a 3,500lbs vehicle going over twice your speed.
not to mention if traffic is going significantly faster than you, you have people constantly trying to get around and pass you. Even if you're on the right and giving cars space we still have to be cautious and slow down a bit when passing to be safe. and if it's in a really, really congested area you'll probably have people aggressively passing you because they're dicks.
the day I could achieve traffic speed was the day that cars stopping being aggressive and riding my ass.
Keeping up pace with traffic is one of the safest things you can do (granted your bike handles the road at those speeds and you have gear on)
GravelBikes@reddit
This exactly. And e bike laws on speed should reflect the reality of the road we're on + mixed with the capabilities of speeds a fast cyclist can hit. Or are these people going to call fast analog cyclists mopeds or motorcycles now if they go faster than the ebike speed limit? Or are these fast cyclist just unregulated and these bicycle specific speed laws only apply to ebikes? Personally, im athletic, been strength training for 12 years, and I ride a drop bar diy e road bike, and routinely go up to around 36mph ish on flats while pedaling if its a clear straight road, nothing to be cautious of (in those particular moments). Which i know is way faster and way out of other peoples comfortability, but also the speed limit on my roads are almost everywhere here 35mph minimum, tons of hills, and people speed well over the 35mph limit. It feels so much safer to get closer to a cars speed on the road if I can than to be around 15mph or 20mph, with no room to speed up very quickly to escape various scenarios.
indolente@reddit
Yea hes an idiot, average cyclists go 15mph max. Anyone who wants ebikes to assist past that really just want a motorcycle without the taxes and permits.
xb4r7x@reddit
I'm a cyclist. I don't know a single person who rides that slow.
15 mph as an average speed would be barely pedaling on flat ground, and would be basically standing still going down any sort of decline.
BoringBob84@reddit
15 mph is between intermediate and advanced skill, which means that at least half of the riders have a slower pace.
https://www.cyclistshub.com/average-cycling-speed/
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
And this is people on road bikes rding as a workout!
Average commuter on a old rusty 3-speed grandma bike is going 9-11 mph trying not to break a sweat. At least that's the average cycling speed in the Netherlands.
BoringBob84@reddit
I think what is lost on the people who want to ride at extremely fast speeds on non-motorized paths is that the damage and injury in a collision are proportional the the square of the speed, so a collision at 28 mph / 45 kph will do four times the damage and injury as a collision at half that speed (i.e., 14 mph / 23 kph).
Joose__bocks@reddit
I know it's anecdotal, but I go about 16mph at a leisurely pace on my gravel bike, no motor. I average about 13-14mph around the city, but in motion I'm going 16-20 unless it's up or down a hill. I do not train in any way, I just toot around the city.
Prestigious-Ad8134@reddit
I think it's pretty context dependent. Going faster than 15 mph on some bike paths is super dangerous, but there are a lot of roads where you really feel like a bicycle going 28 mph.
wturber@reddit
Probably depends a LOT on where you live. 28 mph is no problem where I live. The bike lanes are not congested. If they were, I'd just slow down. Also, if they were, the local municipality could put a speed limit on the bike lane.
And where I live, bicycles (without motors) get up to 30mph all that time going down hills. It is a pretty normal bicycle speed.
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
Speed itself isn't the problem, speed differentials are. Downhill everyone goes fast so it's not a problem.
wturber@reddit
It is both. And speed differential is only a significant issue of there is significant congestion. As I said, reasonable speed limits will vary depending on the situation. That's why roads have speed limits. The same concepts apply to bike lanes, multi-use paths and trails.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Hills on my commute have me over 25mph coasting...
stormdelta@reddit
Hard disagree if we're talking about the US. Most bike lanes here are glorified gutters/shoulders. Also, even gas-powered mopeds are often allowed to use unprotected bike lanes, so this kind of distinction wouldn't make much sense.
Where? 25mph is the absolutely lowest limit I've seen in any city near me, and most roads are 30+.
I would argue if you're going to ban something from even unprotected bike lanes, 30mph is the minimum speed necessary to safely keep up with traffic and more like 35-40mph. And yes, I would obviously call these mopeds, but it's why <=28mph are still ebikes.
Platypus_6414IiiIi-_@reddit
Gutters don't count as bike infrastructure to me
stormdelta@reddit
Tell that to the cities that keep marking them as bike lanes
Speedtospare@reddit
Yet I got passed by two regular road bike. Going 60kph last week. Are they motorcycles?
Dirt_Bike_Zero@reddit
Regular bikes go faster than that. Youre dillusional.
Hads84@reddit
I often ride my non electric assist quatrevelo at speeds greater than 35 km/h, sometimes up to 50, I still use bike lanes, key is being cautious around other users of the path.
Bobwords@reddit
Mopeds go faster than 28 and in most states theyre a different class than a motorcycle.
Chemical_Celery8031@reddit
Yes - 2MPH faster. There is a FEDERAL limit of 30 MPH on Mopeds and thats because faster than that the DOT Requires them to follow motorcycle rules. You want to put ABS brakes on your Bicycle?
Joose__bocks@reddit
Thank you. This helps me understand where the 30mph that often gets mentioned is coming from. I don't know if this is the whole context but now it makes more sense. I thought maybe people just like to round up to the nearest ten.
Chemical_Celery8031@reddit
The 30 MPH rule goes at least as far back as 1982, when I was riding a Moped around Sacramento, CA. I don't think even experimental Ebikes were a thing yet. The class 1/2/3 thing came much, much later
AMC2Zero@reddit
E-bikes have effectively killed mopeds, they're barely any better yet require far more paperwork and restrictions. Mopeds would make more sense if they were limited to 45 rather than 30 as that's what most arterial roads are set at.
Bobwords@reddit
I think having an electric class of bikes that are mopeds that cant ride bike paths and behave as mopeds would make sense for a lot of people. The need for DOT certified parts is the big issue, I fully agree if you're wanting to go faster. The fact people ride fat tire bikes at 60mph with Shimano disk breaks is insane to me.
mickeyaaaa@reddit
they're all motorcycles. it has 2 wheels and a motor. so motor-cycle.
xb4r7x@reddit
Life is more nuanced than your want it to be.
UrbanEconomist@reddit
100% agree. Super clear rule; super easy to enforce. Makes physics sense.
TerranRepublic@reddit
Yeah I've always felt the same way. Why does the distinction between throttle or pedal assist matter? Pedal assist is just rotating your legs a little bit.
Feels like we should just say "yeah on greenways/shared pedestrian/bike paths the max is 20 or 28 or whatever, above that get your butt on the road and get a license"
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
And anyone under 16 shouldn't be able to ride them period. They still can't ride a 25mph gas powered mini bike, why is an electric version ok?
Familiar9709@reddit
28 mph is ridiculously fast for a bike, no way I'd be happy with people being able to regularly do those speeds in cycle paths.
wturber@reddit
It is a perfectly reasonable speed for bike lanes where I live. And I also frequently need to ride where there is no bike lane. If a speed is too fast for a lane, fine - put a speed limit on the bike lane that will apply no matter what bicycle you are riding. Why pick on the ebike?
Familiar9709@reddit
Impossible to enforce speed limits if you don't have a licence plate. And if you have a licence plate then it's a motorbike anyway, that's the point. The point of ebikes is not to need a licence / licence plate / insurance, etc. Otherwise just get a moped
wturber@reddit
Simply not true. If that were the case, it would be impossible to enforce registration for every car that was on the road without a license plate.
Familiar9709@reddit
??? Every car has a licence plate that's why you can enforce speed limits, and it's a very serious offence to drive a car without a licence plate.
wturber@reddit
You enforce the speed limit by pulling the car over. You can do that whether the car, motorcycle, or bicycle has a license plate or not. If I drive my car without a license plate, I'm not immune to speeding tickets.
Familiar9709@reddit
No, most of the time you enforce speed limits with cameras.
wturber@reddit
About half of all speeding tickets are made by traffic stops. The other half are police officers pulling over vehicles. It is not impossible. There was a time when no speeding tickets were issued by speed cameras. It is very possible to issue tickets without using speed cameras and without the vehicle having a license plate.
Pacesco@reddit
The bike path in my city has a 15mph limit and lots of signs that say "no motorized vehicles." Of course they said ebikes aren't "motorized" and class 1 things are ok but every time I'm on that path someone's hauling ass on some vehicle that appears to weigh as much as a dirtbike.
If it were up to me they'd send someone out there to start ticketing but apparently no one cares.
wturber@reddit
Exactly. The current ebike regulations are OK - even if imperfect. The biggest problem is lack of enforcement.
indolente@reddit
By your logic any small motorized scooter should be unregulated. Being highway legal (fast) doesnt define a motor vehicle.
The max assisted speed can be argued over, but having a throttle makes it a moto.
Also google says the average max speed for average adult is 15mph. Why would you give the ebike more speed than a normal bike?
This is just my personal opinion, but i think ebikes should have no throttle, and be limited to 15mph assist. Otherwise its a moto. Im not suggesting they be banned, just more regulated than ebikes.
wturber@reddit
Why would you peg a speed LIMIT so that it exclude about have of regular bicycle riders. If the average speed of an adult is 15 mph, then about half of adults are going faster (assuming a normal distribution curve).
As many have attested to here ebikes routinely get passed by cyclists doing 25 mph. Fit cyclists can average 25 mph for hours when riding in groups. At 67, I can to 20 mph for extended periods of time.
80-year-old Giuseppe Marinoni set the Canadian age hour record of 24.24mph recently. That means that he cycled 24.24 miles in one hour without aid or drafting.
28 mph is dumb because we round to "5" in the U.S. But a 25mph assist limit for an ebike is perfectly reasonable and even desirable from a societal point of view. That extra 5-10 mph makes ebike use significantly more practical. If we want to fix something, lets get better bicycle infrastructure and stop bending over backwards to accommodate automobiles that are way more dangerous and far worse for the health of the general population.
xb4r7x@reddit
Google is simply wrong about that.
bvz2001@reddit
I would suggest one amendment: I would allow a throttle up to 5mph because it can really assist in getting a heavy cargo bike (for example) going before the pedal assist kicks in.
knucles668@reddit
Idk what average is in the context. MTB? I would say 8-15mph depending on fitness. 15-20 is someone who is an amateur or pro.
Road bike, people who are riding 13-15mph are just starting out and getting used to cycling. 15-17 I would say is the average pace in a road group. 23 probably being the fastest they can sustain. Above that you are in the amateur/pro category.
wturber@reddit
Agreed - except that I think 25mph is a more sensible upper limit for assist.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
I'm simply going to have a button that locks it in legal mode if I ever have to but 28mph is too slow for these roads at 45mph and no bike lanes. You're welcome to your own opinion of course, just saying it has no affect on me.
sckuzzle@reddit
There's no such thing. If the "legal mode" can be deactivated with a button, it's not a legal mode.
FoghornFarts@reddit
This.
My bike meets that criteria. I have it up to that speed so I can ride safely on my low-speed residential collector streets where the car speed limit is 25-30 mph. I don't like riding at that speed, but I do it for a couple blocks if there isn't a bike lane.
If drivers still scream at me and try to run me over because I'm preventing them from speeding, then that's how you differentiate a bike from a motorcycle. 👍🏼
bigfknnoid@reddit
This is the only answer.
bonfuto@reddit
Throttle to 20mph and pedal assist to 28 is the legal limit for an ebike in most states. I wouldn't have a problem with throttle bikes that are faster than that, but only on roads with cars. These distinctions seem more important now that everybody wants to ban all ebikes because of the bad actors. Who are 100% using throttles and not pedaling.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Since 99% of the bad actors are kids they should ban all EBike for children under 16, this would make it a lot easier for cops to police the law.
Beginning_Result6298@reddit
they still won't the people the cops work for aren't use bike lanes or sidewalks, they don't care.
Serialtorrenter@reddit
That's already the law in Pennsylvania. Problem is, riding an ebike here doesn't require a drivers license, and people aren't required to carry ID. The age restriction would realistically only be enforceable if the kid committed some other offense that was severe enough to get them arrested.
Another complicating factor is that most police officers are reluctant to chase a kid on a motorcycle because of the high risk of doing so. If an adult crashes while fleeing, that's on them. If a 12 year old crashes while fleeing, there's a degree of shared responsibility; everyone knows that kids are terrible at assessing risk.
XDGD96@reddit
Well then riding ebikes should require a license. I don't even have a license yet and I'm fine with that
Electrical_Tof@reddit
That would leave most kids who aren't irresponsible breaking the law all because big oil lobbied to restrict our infrastructure
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
No, most kids would learn to peddle a bike waiting for the day they can legally ride an EBike. I bought my first car when I was 14; Did I drive it because I owned it? No, I got my sisters boyfriend to drive it home.
Pinkl3@reddit
Not the kids who use the really illegal bikes though, plus their parents don’t seem to care too much about what’s safe or the law so they would probably be able to get them anyways which just leaves the kids who’s parents care about learning about what there kids are interested in stuck without a ebike even if it would otherwise legal and restricted to like 15mph for safety reasons
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Lame ass troll get lost
red_hare@reddit
It's a huge problem in NYC. E-bikes are the lifeblood of food delivery now.
I got hit the other day by an adult on a e-bike while I was going over a bridge in a protected bike lane, and he hit me from behind...
While I see the value of going faster to reduce car use, if you're in a congested bike lane with mostly non-e-bikes the cutoff should be pedal-assist 20mph
sckuzzle@reddit
Throttle to 20 or assist to 28. Having both would be illegal.
CryptoVaper@reddit
Many "Class 3" bikes (like Lectric XP, Xpress) are really Class 2/3 hybrids that do exactly that: throttle to 20, PAS to 28.
sckuzzle@reddit
The bikes themselvese may allow that, but all that means is that they are illegal ebikes and does not match any of the classes. The laws in every state pretty explicitly state that it can only fit into one class, and the classes do not allow for what you are saying.
CryptoVaper@reddit
The original spec was poorly written, IMO. Making Class 3 less capable (in one respect) than Class 2 is silly. I'm doubting that was the original intent and you could argue that a Class 3 ebike that also has some Class 2 features meets the spirit of the law. Outside of California, anyway.
BavardR@reddit
Not true - you can have a bike with a throtttle and it can assist to 28 but the throttle must cut at 20mph and only use PAS past 20mph up to 28
Produce_Exotic@reddit
That's exactly what my lectric xp4 does.
rocinantesghost@reddit
Wait do have any idea if there’s a way to set a bafang midrive to behave like that? Because my setup is otherwise a class 3 but I have a throttle on it because my knees are getting worse and it makes starting from a stop way healthier
XDGD96@reddit
So is it class 2 or 3
Produce_Exotic@reddit
I can change the settings on the display (it's a feature of the bike, not a hack) to make it class one two or three. I usually do throttle up to 20 mph and pedal assist to 28. So I don't know what that is, a 2?
nate998877@reddit
Depends, but Indiana where I live is one or the other. Not both, where do you live & what's the laws? Most states i've seen are one or the other, not both.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
my bike has selections to switch classes. 1, 2, or 3, so it can be switched depending on the path you are on.
nate998877@reddit
This is the cat & mouse game that police are going to loose & is why I dont think legislation will fix this problem. The difference between an emoto & an ebike is effectively petals. If an ebike has the power it can do 50mph if the battery, motor, & controller support it. If you can switch the firmware on the fly police can test the bikes all day long & not identify anything illegal
sckuzzle@reddit
Yes. But if they do find you doing it, you'll be in serious trouble. There were some car manufacturers that were caught doing something similar with their cars.
nate998877@reddit
No way the police would know the firmware has changed as it tends to be a key combo on the bikes & not phone/app based. I'm not saying its legal, just saying the enforcement becomes difficult if a testing device can be tricked.
sckuzzle@reddit
The cars were able to automatically detect when they were being tested - no key presses required. And while it took several years, testing agencies did still eventually find out.
We do agree that enforcement is far more difficult when vehicles have these testing defeat mechanisms in them though.
inline-online@reddit
I don't think you understand the implications of that lol it doesn't mean you get to get off on a technicality because they can't identify it, it just means they will straight up ban them all so it doesn't matter how you want to identify your ebike
critical thinking is hard for ebikers like yourself tho, otherwise you would have thought of what I just said before you hit enter.
nate998877@reddit
I dont actually ride an ebike. I ride an analogue gravel bike. I'm just on this sub to stay up to date on ebike news & see what ppl are talking about
CraziFuzzy@reddit
750W isn't getting to 50 very easily.
nate998877@reddit
True, but police are largely ignorant to that kind of thing, so if its not clearly labeled they're going to have no way to verify if its 750w or 2000
Dragonraja@reddit
UK police have this device where they can test the maximum speed. Plus they can look the bike up on their phone. Cops aren't as ignorant as you think they are.
nate998877@reddit
There are bikes that allow you to flash the firmware back to stock on the fly if police pull you over and debaged, diy, or otherwise modified bikes aren't searchable for specs.
Cops might not be totally ignorant, but enforcement has never been an effective way of stopping unwanted behavior.
OhioTry@reddit
Or at all unless you have a very long downhill.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
This is why they need a hard ban on children under 16 from riding a powered vehicle of any kind. They can't legally ride a gas motor powered bike of any kind, why should electric powered be any different
sckuzzle@reddit
Just because your bike allows you to do this doesn't mean that that is what the law allows. If you read the law, it pretty explicitly does not allow this - and having different modes would make it technically illegal and not fitting into any of them.
Yami-sama@reddit
Illinois is both. My ebike throttles to 20 and, if im feeling really spirited, will assist up to 32ish in the right wind conditions at max assist.
MAkrbrakenumbers@reddit
Ohio has it set for both but throttle after 20 is an issue
John-AtWork@reddit
Not in a lot of states. It's dumb, but it is the law in California.
sckuzzle@reddit
You should read the law. I've had this conversation with several people here - it's definitely not legal, and if you go to the primary source instead of trusting people on reddit you will see that for yourself.
Mid_Night_Blackbird@reddit
Maybe for your jurisdiction. I'm not allowed on some trails in Colorado, but as long as the motor is 750w or lower I can have both throttle to 20 and assist to 28. Even got the tax credit from the state to acknowledge it fits the legal parameters.
sckuzzle@reddit
They don't check the legality on bicycles when giving a tax credit. And, sorry to burst your belief, but this is the actual law:
https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-42-vehicles-and-traffic/co-rev-st-sect-42-1-102/
You'll notice that there is no exception for throttle up to 20mph. It is "assistance only when pedaling" and that is it. If your bike gives throttle up to 20mph then it is not a class 3 ebike.
John-AtWork@reddit
Which is true, but also kinda dumb.
stormdelta@reddit
Technically yes, but in practice very few people would care.
They-Are-Out-There@reddit
I’m good with throttle to 20 mph and 28 mph with pedal assist.
I have electric motorcycles too, and they’re properly licensed, registered, and insured. They are fast enough for the freeway and need to be treated like other motorcycles.
geoffpz1@reddit
Problem lies in the fact that mopeds, can generally keep up with traffic. 28, around me, is in the death zone on the 30 mph roads. Most people do 40. 28 puts you ether in a blind spot, all the time, or you have numerous cars coming up on you from behind, quickly. 40 gets you out of trouble. This is the problem. You will not win on the road regardless, I would rather have the option.
Brief_Profit365@reddit
I’m at 20 mph pedal assist or throttle. Anti-throttle is ablest bullshit. Elderly and disabled riders should be able to enjoy cycling too.
lordredsnake@reddit
I think throttles should make them motos, except I want a throttle on my own and want it to be considered a bike.
Trick_Afternoon_1066@reddit
Not all throttle make the bikes go crazy fast
Maxrdt@reddit
I wish there were more UK style throttles. I don't need my throttle to go fast, I just want to get off the line at a stop sign.
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
Out of curiosity, what makes a throttle "UK style"?
Maxrdt@reddit
They have a very low speed speed for a throttle, basically only a "walk mode".
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
Huh, so it can basically only be used for extra torque moving from a stop? I actually don't hate that; that's 95% of what I use my throttle for anyway (the other 5% is coming home from leg day).
Dirt_Bike_Zero@reddit
Seriously. A throttle doesnt make it irresponsible.
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
But it makes it more of a moped and less of a bicycle
digitalaudiotape@reddit
Yes. Parents carrying kids on a long tail cargo bike aren't trying to get off on speed by abusing a throttle.
cleadus_fetus@reddit
Thsi
captfitz@reddit
i don't follow the anti-throttle logic. my nice pedal-assist ebike accelerates quite a bit faster than my cheapo throttle ebike. why does the act of pedaling make anything more safe? shouldn't it just be based on acceleration and top speed?
kaffesvart@reddit
Why keep the peddles at all if u have a throttle??
danny_ish@reddit
I just use my throttle to get started until i can swing my leg over the seat. Left foot on left pedal, throttle to 5mph ish, swing my right leg over and start pedaling. I also use it when climbing steep hills instead of increasing the assist.
It’s an aid to those of us responsible
DIYuntilDawn@reddit
Apparently you have never had a battery die in the middle of a trip, or an electrical issue happen while on an ebike.
You know what is worse than having to pedal your ebike home. Having to get off it and push it home.
AndydeCleyre@reddit
Throttle vs assist-only does make some difference orthogonal to raw speed measurements.
The ability to squeeze the throttle without pedaling makes it easier to mentally disengage from the movement of the bike. It makes it possible to, in a panic, freeze up and "floor it." It provides less visual hinting to other road users about how you're bike is moving. It dampens incentive to start moving as soon as the light changes for an uphill block -- usually the acceleration (not speed, necessarily) is faster than pedal assists, and "free," which decouples your flow from that of other riders. It's also attractive to folks who never liked biking before, so there may be a correlation with inexperience and lack of etiquette. There's also a tendency for some folks to go full throttle all the time, rather than taking speed cues from context.
captfitz@reddit
i don't think any of that is wrong but it feels like several very weak reasons to make throttle the delineating factor, even after considering those points top speed/acceleration still seem 10x more important to me
lordredsnake@reddit
The anti-throttle attitude mostly stems from negative interactions with irresponsible riders (wheelie kids, delivery riders) who tend to use throttle-only while on sidewalks, the wrong way down bike lanes, lane splitting traffic, etc.
Up until relatively recently, most pedal-assist bikes required some physical effort to get up to max speed. That is no longer the case with some of the higher powered motors, so the distinction is becoming less relevant.
wturber@reddit
Why? Explain yourself.
Ok-Big2807@reddit
Without a throttle, I’m stuck driving everywhere of the AQI isn’t good enough. The ani throttle crowd often forgets that some people have physical limitations based on environmental conditions. I don’t use my throttle all time but, I literally can’t walk a quarter mile with an N95 mask on once fire season starts.
Joose__bocks@reddit
Arthritis is another good reason. Some people can pedal for short distances but need to take a break. They're still safer to the general public on a bicycle than in a car. The argument starts to fall apart when you introduce minors and higher speeds.
FoghornFarts@reddit
I have a throttle on my e bike and it's a safety feature when I'm at traffic lights on busy streets without a bike lanes. It's also super useful when I have my kids in the trailer.
I could just ride by using the throttle, but I won't go very fast.
KatakanaTsu@reddit
The pully wheel jammed on the derailleur on my way home from work one night and I physically could not pedal at all. The only reason I didn't have to walk the rest of the way home and then to a bike shop the following day was thanks to having a throttle.
DirtBikeBoy5ive@reddit
I thought this past was an ad
bsiu@reddit
If e-moto kids could read right now they’d be very upset.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
No state that I know of let's anyone under 16 operate any motorized vehicle on public property without a licence.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Um, they are all allowing kids to drive e moto bikes
outdatedboat@reddit
Did you forget to switch accounts when replying to yourself?
outdatedboat@reddit
I have been going to publicly owned riding areas since I was 5 years old. There is absolutely no license required for any age for off road dirtbike riding.
If you said public roads, that's a different story. They'd need to be 16 or older, have a driver's license, a motorcycle endorsement, and have a street legal/registered/insured bike.
But all 50 states have public riding areas with no license requirements for anyone. So I'm not sure where you got that idea.
bsiu@reddit
None of these TikTok e-moto kids care about what is legal. They either convince a parent to buy them an “e-bike” or acquire a stolen one and terrorize the streets in packs as their hobby blasting past red lights and stop signs, on sidewalks. Too young to get a license, completely ignorant to traffic laws but full throttling down the street at 50+ mph for peer approval and social media content.
I couldn’t care less about what a responsible adult chooses to ride for a commute/leisure vehicle. They are not the problem.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
In California the existing laws are Class 1 & 2 E-Bikes: Assist up to (20 \text{ mph}). There are no minimum age restrictions in California, but children under 18 must wear a helmet.Class 3 E-Bikes: Assist up to (28 \text{ mph}). By law, riders must be (16 \text{ years}) or older
What's next is going to be a hard ban on all powered vehicles of any kind for kids under 16. That will make cops jobs a lot easier, they see a kid on an EBike it gets confiscated & the parents get a ticket
Pretty-Yam-2854@reddit
But but my 55mph electric dirtbike that I don’t have a license for and isn’t supposed to be on the sidewalks, bikepath or road!
brokengarage@reddit
Back in my day we called those Kawasakis
footsnax@reddit
Yet there they are! Don't forget going the wrong way on a one way or just using the wrong side of the street and blowing through red lights. Those are strict requirements of the e-moto unlicense.
Almost got creamed by one the other day, with a passenger, no indication they were passing, no helmets, no light, in the middle of the country at night. Just plowed right past, no pedal motion noticed.
I'm a class 3 hardliner, you don't need to go any faster but I hate that it actually limits your speed any less than that. I can do 30 on hardball with an analog bike and I don't use throttle anyway unless I'm chucking myself up the driveway when I get home, and I don't believe anyone should be using it to cruise. That's just a slow lightweight dirtbike, that's not cycling.
mataliandy@reddit
I live in the mountains. I've done 50 on my analog road bike down certain hills. Getting up was quite a challenge, though.
footsnax@reddit
Yeah I'm in the midwest, we have a hill somewhere over there. It's fun to come down and I can definitely blast it, it just sucks that I can feel the motor limiting me when I know I can do better. I just shut it off for any downhills and pedal for exercise.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Ok Ok Ok.. I've driven thru the Midwest multiple times, unless some new mountain ranges popped up, it's flatter than the 11 year old Trump gaped.. Please share where there is a hill in the Midwest... 😂😅🤣
Hidden-Sky@reddit
"Not street legal??? That's stupid, I spent $6000 on it, I'll ride it wherever I want. Eat dirt, losers."
fmtech_@reddit
Before e-bikes were an issue the local dunces used to take gas powered vehicles In our trails. The bikes aren’t the problem it’s the stupid people.
FarmerStrider@reddit
Anything with a throttle is not an e-bike and should have to be licensed. Im fine with infinite speed pedal assist, but as soon as the throttle is installed it changes everything.
dude_imp3rfect@reddit
Pedal assist to 28 with no throttle would get my vote. Anything with throttle only is a motorcycle.
norcalgirl21@reddit
I’m between 6 & 7. I live in a small mountain town that’s plagued with tourists. In the summer my friends and I (and many other local residents) rely on our e-bikes to get around town and live our lives. Otherwise parking is non existent and traffic is terrible. We do need to go faster to keep up with traffic (mainly 25-35mph speed limit and tiny spot in town with a 45mph). We also need to quickly be able to get out of a tight spot when a tourist is paying attention to the scenery and NOT where they’re driving. HOWEVER, I do wish that tourists on rental bikes who ride on the sidewalks/paved paths and young children (I like the driving age distinction I saw someone suggest) would be required to have pedal assist or slower throttle bikes as this seems to be the majority causing dangerous situations, mostly through lack of experience and lack of judgement. I’d also love the bike rental companies to have a quick little safety/rules of the road class you have to do before they release people into the wild.
Outside-Ad-9410@reddit
"no pedals at all - congratulations, you have a motorcycle" sir it's called a SCOOTER
atlasraven@reddit
Or an EUC or an electric skateboard. Many personal electric vehicles don't have pedals. Ebikes and light electric motorcycles exist on a spectrum of other rides.
chrispark70@reddit
And if you ride an EUC, you are a lunatic! I get scared just looking at people riding them. Of course, if I was 30 years younger, I'd probably see them differently.
WayAcceptable1310@reddit
They're actually really reliable these days and super practical. Small, agile, keeps your hands free to carry groceries or whatever, and they fit under a desk or table. I commute on mine and run errands all over the place.
I won't deny we're all a little bit nuts but I think they're a legitimate and very useful commuter vehicle and in a lot of cases just as versatile as a bike or scooter.
TBH a lot of the scooters I see look sketchy and unstable as heck with the little tiny wheels, where at least a 16-20" EUC tire can eat a serious pothole and be ok.
chrispark70@reddit
My comment was more of a joke and an envy of the young, like I wish they were around 30 years ago (or I was 30 years younger), They look quite fun and you have to be a bit nuts to get on one.
There were e-bikes back then, but they were few and far between and used Nimh or NiCD batteries, so they had much less range and were slower.
I know they make little EUCs, but aren't most of them now getting up around 100 pounds? AFAIK, the (light) little ones have smaller wheels and no suspension and fairly short range.
The inexpensive scooters that are limited to 14-20mph are OK, I guess, but I saw a video of some guy going down I95 in Florida passing the cars. A lot of these scooters are just way too fast, especially given how inherently unstable they are. Even as a younger adult (20 something), I probably wouldn't have wanted one.
When it comes to the commuting aspect of "electric micro mobility,"I think e-bikes are far more practical than either scooters or EUCs, especially if you want to carry something. Though, I suppose if you have a small EUC, bringing it into your office and putting it under the desk is a great option, while e-bikes are large and awkward and won't fit under a desk.
Yes, there are people who ruin all the fun for everyone else. They are why we cannot have nice things. Who gives a 12 year old an e-moto to ride in the streets? These same parents would likely never give their 12yo a 2-stroke moto to tear up the neighborhood streets, but put an E in it and appeal to 'all the kids have em' and parents lose their damned sense.
atlasraven@reddit
I get pumped! I'm happy to see 1 less car on the roads. I don't care if that's bikes, scooters, or EUCs. You do see high powered enthusiast wheels but there are some low speed versions just for cruising around.
WayAcceptable1310@reddit
The high power wheels are great for just cruising around too 😄
When you've only got one motor, one wheel, and no concept of "coasting", a bit of speed and power overhead translates directly to safety. Batteries are usually bigger too so you can take longer trips. I've known people who got hurt on an undersized, underpowered EUC or a onewheel because they smacked an electrical limit at a bad time, but of the group I ride with we probably have 30,000 miles amongst us with no accidents or major injuries that I know of.
There are definitely dudes and dudettes who ride recklessly, but the vast majority of us really do try to be safe and respectful when out and about.
I've got a heavy long-range wheel which is fast enough to keep up with traffic on a mid-speed road if I really need to but tbh that's safer than getting passed in the death gutter, protected only by a stripe of white paint.
I'm normally cruising the extensive multiuse trails near me or taking residential roads in the 25ish range, and that's plenty to get me anywhere I want to go explore. Heck, I've gone to the hardware store and brought back an armful of half-length 2x4s before just to see how many of my errands I could accomplish without using a car. Turns out, most of them!
So far my longest trip in a day was about 130mi of mixed road/trail/offroad on packed gravel, and another time I went halfway across the state to watch a movie with a friend and then rode back in a thunderstorm- \~110mi round trip for that. Just wildly versatile and tough little vehicles. Try one out sometime if you know of anyone with one 😄It's a lovely way to get outdoors, and honestly a very good workout for your core and legs especially offroad.
Revolutionary-Half-3@reddit
It's a scooter if it can't break 29mph. Also known as a "shitbox", even if it's designed to have limited top speed.
Substantial_Cow7628@reddit
My Vespa does 80.
Hungry_Rest1182@reddit
where? In most of Southeast Asia, scooters are everywhere and go a hell of a lot faster than 29MPH. How Eurocentric are you? By definition , a scooter has a single gear, clutchless transmission and two hand brakes. A motorcycle has gears and generally a clutch, one hand brake and one foot brake.
HellsEngels@reddit
It's not even eurocentric. Most European countries would have a scooter on a learners license that goes up to 60-70mph
Hungry_Rest1182@reddit
I know, bro. I meant it more abstractly as the Euro mentality to over regulate everything bleeding into a person conception of what constitutes a scooter ( ah, E-scooter, kick scooter or ICE scooter? Merde).
I get that Europe is actually a small place geographically speaking and extremely congested; by far more people ride bicycles and ICE scooters versus a lot of North America so there is onus to regulate things like license , speed limits , exhaust, etc. But it's big ass world out there, eh.
CBrinson@reddit
Huh? They have made highway capable scooters for at least 50 years from every major brand.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
vespa is freedom!
CBrinson@reddit
I like how the people here are sooo mad about people overusing the word "ebike" and then calls everything a "motorcycle" when scooters, mopeds, etc exist, because they are too lazy to use the right word.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
I am most familiar with california, and M1 and M2 are both motorcycle licenses.
CBrinson@reddit
The license not the device. No one ever called the scooter a motorcycle even as they tell you that you need a motorcycle license to ride a scooter.
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
Scooters are classified as motorcycles for legal purposes, unless you're talking about mopeds.
Substantial_Cow7628@reddit
Scooters are motorcycles.
Chemical_Celery8031@reddit
In California an electric Moped does not require pedals. A gas powered one does. I don't know why but the actual vehicle code states "or no pedals if powered solely by electrical".
Substantial_Cow7628@reddit
If it doesn't have PEDals it's not a moPED.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Which is total BS. We need to treat all moving vehicles the same regardless of how they are powered. No kid should be on an electric bike period, they confiscated my gas powered mini bike when I was a kid, I don't think it went faster than 25mph. Those laws are still on the books, so why is it suddenly ok just because they are now electric ?
Standard_Gur30@reddit
Agreed. If some of those faster e-bikes aren’t motorcycles then my Tesla isn’t a car and traffic laws don’t apply to me.
pandaSmore@reddit
We just call that a mo.
Pretty-Yam-2854@reddit
I would love an electric skateboard but I’d need a full body motorcycle suit. The one I want does 32mph, faster than my class 2/3 eMTB. Except no front fork, fat gravel tires, spring seat or frame to lean on. Just your feet and if you lose both you go bye bye.
Signal-Wrangler-6789@reddit
For me the line is no throttle unless you have some disability that hinders pedaling. Biggest problem appears to be kids flying down the sidewalk at 30+ on throttles electric motorbikes.
djl32@reddit
The problem is this: Because the e-industry and the e-community have consistently obfuscated things, regulations are being imposed by neghborhood HOA Karens, Sierra Club members, and equestrians - all of whom vote.
stormdelta@reddit
Those people tend to just hate cyclists period and will go after any excuse to screw them over.
Most US states already do have precise definitions codified into law, and if you look at what normal people complain about IRL, it's things like Surrons that were already exactly as illegal as any gas-powered dirtbike to ride on public roads/streets.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
well, yeah.. this one time, some town somewhere actually took away a traffic lane to add a bike lane - so yes... all cyclists must go. we need more car lanes! Just one more will do it!
Subject_Ad9595@reddit
That happened near me, in Encinitas, CA, along the 101. It was 2 lanes both ways, now it's 1 lane both way and a huge bike lane. It is such a PITA to drive down that road now, luckily I am not over there very often. The biggest problem I have with that, is that this stretch is next to the railway tracks that has a huge dirt space between the tracks and the road where they can put a specific bike path and not screw up traffic. There are lots of bike paths in the surrounding cities that go along the tracks, so it isn't some crazy idea.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Why don't people ride the rails along that stretch if the tracks are right there, and not need the extra lanes?
Subject_Ad9595@reddit
There isn't a pathway, instead of making a bike path they spent even more money to redo the road to change the 1 lane to be a bike lane.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
I meant riding the train.
Subject_Ad9595@reddit
People dont ride the train just a few mile stretch. I don't know where you are at, but public transportation in California is crap.
djl32@reddit
You're right that those groups tend to hate cyclists in general, but the problem is regular people, who aren't really informed, are much more likely to listen to their Karen neighbor on Nextdoor, rather than some randos on Reddit.
Mitrovarr@reddit
Yeah, I'm here because the e-moto guys are causing backlash so bad that regular cyclists are being affected now. Regular bikes almost ended up functionally banned in one state (Iowa?)
stormdelta@reddit
The fault for bad laws is on the politicians writing them.
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
The same exact thing happened with civilian drone usage. The tech rapidly out paced the regulation and the societal adoption. The bad eggs ruined it.
Idiots on sidewalks going 25mph and groups of kids trying to takeover the Bay Bridge are infinitely more damaging than some Karen because they sour normal people to e-bikes who wouldn’t have cared otherwise.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Clearly the solution is to apply the same rules we have always had. No one under 16 can ride an Ice motorcycle of any size on a road, the same ban should apply to ebikes. How is that not fair?
the_climaxt@reddit
Throttle to ~30 should be considered the same as a 50cc moped. In Colorado, that's considered a Low Powered Scooter, requires insurance and registration, but allows you to ride in painted on-street bike lanes and park at bike racks.
Accomplished-Dot-640@reddit
#4 but anything after #2 should require insurance.
I do also think all vehicles for road use should have a unique identifier. If that's a plate, or some sort of colour-based barcode. idc.
Not overly against people having to do some hazard/obstacle avoidance training either.
xXMuschi_DestroyerXx@reddit
You’ve over complicated the hell out of what shouldn’t be an over complicated issue.
Let me start with the biggest take here I haven’t seen mentioned. I don’t want to recognize any government’s authority to outright ban certain types of transportation. If we can figure out how to let private civilians safely operate anything from mopeds to cruise ships, hypercars to jet planes, by god I just think we can figure out how to safely allow citizens to handle electric bicycles. It’s absolute fuckin nonsense I could store a gun safe full of rifles, a hypercar, a motorcycle, and a boat in my garage, but my government have an issue with a bicycle because it’s got a motor on it.
No. An outright ban is just plain old irresponsibly legislatively lazy. It’s the wrong answer and anyone willing to actually think about the issue should know it. We enjoy rights and freedoms here and we should be allowed to enjoy any mode of transportation, so long as we do it responsibly and safely.
Here’s my take. If it’s too speed is below 15 mph, it gets treated like a pedal bikes. If it’s over it must be treated as a moped or dirt bike. Over 50 I don’t even care what its top speed is, it just gets treated as a motorcycle. I mean seriously, it might as well just be a motorcycle, minus the combustion engine.
Require license plates and registration, headlights, tail lights, turn signals, all that shebang. Obvious outlaw their use on sidewalks. They must yield to pedestrians anywhere a car would.
The e-bikes of today that go to fast aren’t an issue because they exist, they are an issue because there’s inadequate regulations around them. any form of transportation would have the same exact issues e-bikes are having if they had as little regulation and enforcement.
No regulation isn’t the answer. Total bans aren’t the answer. Reasonable safety oriented regulation, like literally any other form of transportation, is the answer.
Unusual-Scarcity6536@reddit
Pedal bikes can easy go 30mph, so why the fuck does having a motor force it to be limited to 15 in your eyes? Zero logic on that part.
xXMuschi_DestroyerXx@reddit
Ok sure 30. The specific number wasn’t really the point. The point is we shouldn’t just outright ban them. They are a safety concern though so they should be reasonably regulated
Unusual-Scarcity6536@reddit
I don't think regulation of the bikes' hardware is the answer at all, regulating rider behavior on the bikes is. Maybe age restrictions too, such as nobody under 16 on any ebike that goes faster than 20mph. But other than that if the police just target those riding recklessly, then the problem is solved.
cran@reddit
I find it stupid that people buy ebikes specifically made to look like a grom or motocross and try to ride them around town like a bike. The police live to ticket you. Buy the most ordinary looking bike possible. The faster it can go, the more ordinary it should look. Paint it to look rusty even.
QUEENSNYLAWYER@reddit
I think the focus should be on behavior not the machine stats.
myReddit-username@reddit
It’s a lot easier to regulate. For example, “Well it can go 45 but I only go 15 most of the time”… well someone else will buy it and go 45
Unusual-Scarcity6536@reddit
So punish those who actually ride it dangerously. Not that fucking hard.
snakeproof@reddit
Exactly, who gives a shit that mine is capable of doing 35, in all the years I've been riding it nobody has ever asked me because I don't ride like a cunt around people.
TheTexasJack@reddit
I can hit 30 easy on my Catrike with no motor. It's was never about the motor, just the speed. It's just as dangerous as an ebike.
Trentoonzzz@reddit
Exactly. My bike can hit 28mph but my average speed according to my app & speedometer is 13mph. I legitimately go slower than the average cyclist but I guess we’re the bad guys regardless.
Poida87@reddit
Both, because the machine enables the behaviour.
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Since almost all of the bad behavior is committed by kids without a licence we should apply the same laws that apply to Ice powered bikes. I had a minibike when I was a kid. We rode it around our neighborhood & new if we got caught we either had to walk it home or they impounded it. Why should it be any different just because it's electric powered ?
NurmalMan@reddit
The only reason the line is so muddy is because they are expected to share either space on the sidewalk, or share space on the road. They are too fast for the sidewalk and too slow for the road.
Until there is proper infrastructure for it, the line completely depends on where you live and what's available.
lfcitz@reddit
Nobody expects them to share space on the sidewalk. That's the whole problem... that and young kids not following the rules of the road, which they know nothing about because they're too young.
SXTY82@reddit
Class 3. 20m-h on throttle, 28 pedal.
Conscious-Salt-4836@reddit
Class 2 on street, trails, and bikeways. Throttle capable to 20 also.
Far-Resource3365@reddit
Right after 3. But also the bike that allows you to ride this speed without assist.
78Anonymous@reddit
then it's not a bicycle, it's a motorbike
Far-Resource3365@reddit
Starting with 4 it's a motorbike, yes.
Harde_Kassei@reddit
the old mopeds had pedals (15.5 mph), i never got why the ebikes got off so easy. not like traffic got any safer.
Quiet-Section-3391@reddit
Throttle assist is an accessibility issue, but other than an optional throttle assist if it's an accessibility issue - Pedal assist to 20 MPH. Bikes shouldn't be going faster than a bike would go if only using your pedals and if you're biking over 30km/hr then you can provide the extra umph no issue. e-bikes operate in shared spaces.
Chuks_K@reddit
Up to 4 to me, beyond that isn't immediately "moped" or such territory to me but doesn't feel like it registers as an e-bike either...
Yunboi19@reddit
Rode mine through my town a few times knowing I can do nearly double the posted speed limit… cops are out and about and didn’t bother me whatsoever. Then they spotted two kids on a Talaria and pulled them over. It’s the irresponsible kids they’re mostly after
78Anonymous@reddit
it's really quite simple, if you don't need to pedal, you're riding a motorbike and not a bicycle
BlueFroggLtd@reddit
Throttle to any speed = not an ebike. We'd call that a moped; or small motor bike.
KiwiNo2638@reddit
I would argue throttle up to \~2mph to get you moving or to help you walk a heavy bike somewhere.
78Anonymous@reddit
your idea goes against the definition of a bicycle .. if you're not talking about bicycles, you're referring to mopeds etc, for which there is different legislation
78Anonymous@reddit
2 ...in line with current law.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
15mph (25kph) is the European and Asian speed limit.
US class 1 and class 2 are both 20mph.
A throttle to 20mph poses less risk than pedal assist to 28mph. Reflected in definition of class 3.
Whether a throttle is used or not, is a distant second to top speed. The kinetic energy at 28mph is nearly DOUBLE that of 20mph. People fixated on the presence of a throttle failed physics.
Byproduct@reddit
Yeah EU doesn't bother with all these different classes. It's just 25km/h max regardless of throttle. And whether it's actually monitored depends on the country. Most don't I think.
Here in Finland nobody gives a shit if your bike goes a little faster as long as you don't cause trouble. One class higher would be moped/motorcycle at 45km/h but almost nobody has their ebike registered as such, because it's a hassle and not always even possible.
flukus@reddit
Most of the EU doesn't allow a throttle beyond walk assist.
Byproduct@reddit
And where besides Germany does anyone actually care in your opinion?
flukus@reddit
I never said anything about enforcement.
Byproduct@reddit
Well you directly replied to my comment about it
Otaraka@reddit
Australia it’s 25 km and pedal assist only..
I think the general throttle bans are more about making sure it’s not lying about what its real top speed is without having to do extensive testing and essentially being a motorbike in disguise.
There’s a shop here that sells emoto with little fake pedals but do no real assistance where it’s clearly intended to go well over 20mph. It also has a speedo that stops at 25kmh. Entire industries are happening to get around the law on these issues and unfortunately the legal answers are screwing over everybody.
wturber@reddit
This is correct - and one of the reasons I think Class 3 should be 25 mph in the U.S.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
I could live with it being 25mph. But also OK with it being 28mph which provides a small buffer to keep pace on residential streets.
I have no desire to go over 30mph on a bicycle with just a helmet for protection.
wturber@reddit
My thinking is that in the U.S. no cop is going to bother an ebike until they are very near 30mph if the legal limit is 25 mph. There's a 5mph "fudge factor" window there. There is no need for a 3mph buffer IMO.
That said, 28 mph doesn't bother me much other than it just makes it a tad more difficult to enforce and enforcement is going to lean toward rounding up to 30 mph because the cop now has to argue that some guy doing 30mph is deserving of a ticket for the additional 2mph. It just doesn't fit with traffic convention well. IMO, it was a mistake and is there because these laws were pushed through by a consortium of manufacturers and are not the result so cyclists and cycling advocates sitting down and hashing out some good sensible rules. Class 1, 2, and 3 are marketing gimmicks for the most part.
mickeyaaaa@reddit
swren1967@reddit
The rules should be context based. Licensing should mirror what we already have for ICE vehicles. Speed should be regulated based on conditions. I don't need a motor to go too fast on a trail. If I'm sharing a space with pedestrians, I need to slow down no matter what kind of vehicle I'm on. The type of assistance doesn't matter, it's the behavior that needs regulation and enforcement.
stu54@reddit
For me it is 500 watts
Background-Bison6847@reddit
The line is 2 in the uk
KiwiNo2638@reddit
Line two is legal, very rarely policed apart from special operations (not that sort of special ops) on the high street only.
liamnajor2@reddit
Cause me more danger = less danger somehow?!!
SlumpTrell@reddit
I think all electric two wheeled vehicles are fine within reason, i think every city should have a bike lane & the speed limit should be similar to the cars. Every city/town has 15 different shitty parks, one of those could easily be made into a bike/dirt track for people that want to have fun. Your local government should be catering to the town’s interests, not ticketing tax paying citizens & harassing kids for a statistically harmless hobby
Eltrits@reddit
In Europe, an ebike is limited to 25km/h. It's the equivalent of class 1. Other stuff needs to be insured. I think it makes sense because it's roughly the speed you would go with a regular bike.
SomeRedPanda@reddit
I think it makes perfect sense and I don't see much argument about what an e-bike is or should be in Europe. They're mostly just treated like any bike.
Mal-De-Terre@reddit
Read the rules of the sub.
zakujanai@reddit
Americans are really scared of using their legs to do any of the work of getting around aren't they. Ebikes doing 28mph is insane to me. Try pedaling, it's good for you.
TokenTB619@reddit
My E-bike does 28 with me pedaling?
YobaiYamete@reddit (OP)
A lot here seem to rate having a throttle at all as the most egregious sin known to man, but IMO I would absolutely never buy one without a throttle again
Being able to give it a little boost while you are getting on it, or to take off from a stop sign, or make a tight turn, or go up a steep hill etc etc etc is insane quality of life
To me, the throttle is just there for quality of life and if it's maxing out at 20mph which is the same as the pedal assist, and if it still has pedals then that's still just an ebike with nice QoL
The line to me is when you are going 30+ mph which just makes you a menace to other cyclists and pedestrians or if you have no pedals at all
that_toof@reddit
I’m with you. I typically don’t use the throttle myself that often, but I use it to verify that the motor is working fine before I hop onto the bike every time. That way I’m not wasting time hopping on and off just to check that the bike is gonna do the thing.
Brillegeit@reddit
I think most ebikes without throttle still have walk mode you can use to achieve this.
qbg@reddit
The dynamic assist levels on the Bosch SmartSystem scratch that itch for me without a throttle.
danny_ish@reddit
See, i ride at low enough speeds often enough that throttle or regular pedaling in a low gear is fine. But a high gear makes slow speed pedaling dangerous and slow speed assist useless
qbg@reddit
I do the vast majority of my miles under muscle power only as I have the assist set to cut out at 10 MPH. I also don't have to worry about forgetting to downshift before coming to a stop since I have an internally geared hub.
danny_ish@reddit
Nice, a very different style from most of us though
bvz2001@reddit
But that comes with a significant cost, money wise.
My cheap aftermarket Bafang has a throttle that I use to get my cargo bike up to a few mph (usually around 1-2 mph or so) before I can start pedaling. I can't afford an ebike with a Bosch unfortunately.
When I am loaded down with 120 pounds, that throttle is the difference between a guaranteed launch and an iffy, wobbly start that might have me tipping over.
kangaroonemesis@reddit
Same with Specialized Turbo series. 80% starting torque down to near 0 at speed is a huge nice to have.
DIYuntilDawn@reddit
Your list is VERY flawed.
Just to prove how inaccurate the OPs list is. I present you with THIS #8 on the list.
YobaiYamete@reddit (OP)
. . . do you think dumb memes are supposed to be all encompassing to every possible exception? Do you want a list that's literally a wikipedia article worth of a text in a meme?
DIYuntilDawn@reddit
I never said it had to be a long list, it is not the length of the list that is the issue. It is how incomplete the list is. You literally are asking people to make a choice and presenting them with incomplete and false data that has been cherry picked to only display your opinion and presenting it as if it is an extensive selection of options.
AND you then get annoyed when someone doesn't agree with your nearly forced selection.
It is your poorly vailed attempt at manipulation that I have the issue with.
I just chose a funny way of pointing out how your list is bad.
UnderstandingKey7711@reddit
holy reddit behavior
iSellNuds4RedditGold@reddit
Stop buying cadence sensor ebike and this won't be a problem.
YobaiYamete@reddit (OP)
Brother my bike has a dual-sided torque sensor, but I still like the throttle
iSellNuds4RedditGold@reddit
No you don't, trust me, I'm a redditor, I know best.
Cat_Face_Thing@reddit
Not totally related, but I dream of building a fixie with a thumb throttle for this exact reason . I don't need pedal assist for most of my ride, but it would be nice to have for a good headwind with a heavy load or a bad start in front of a nasty driver.
bonisaur@reddit
Having the throttle on the bike is going to be the loop hole that companies are going to use to make insane things. Look at the “cargo bike” Amazon is buying. It doesn’t matter if it goes 20mph max - it is dense enough where it will do significant damage as if it were moving 30+. If you reclassify bikes with throttles, enforcement will be so much easier because a human being needs to do the work pedal assist.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
My class 2/3 that has a start assist that works really well, so while it does also have a throttle, I don't ever feed the need to use it for starts.
wturber@reddit
People also routinely confuse having a throttle with throttle only. Both of my Class 3 ebikes have a throttle that only functions when pedaling. Also, some state laws specifically allow a non-pedal assist boost for walking or starting a bike up to 3-4mph.
Magneto-Rex@reddit
couldn’t agree more with everything you said 👆🏽
thadius856@reddit
I don't really care where the line is. I'm just tired of almost getting taken out almost daily by kids screaming past me on these things on sidewalk at 20+ mph, with inches to spare.
I feel like I'm one finger slip or inattentive moment away from a hospital trip, as a pedestrian.
throwthere10@reddit
2 is the way.
Sovereign1@reddit
7
Celebratedmediocre@reddit
Pedal assist to around 30 is good enough for my commute. I changed my aventon wheel size settings to get to about 33 max and it feels way too fast most of the time
LanceAvion@reddit
The designation for Class 1 and 2 are incorrect. Class 1 is pedal assist to 20 mph, while Class 2 is throttle assist to 20 mph. A speed limit of 15 mph is not within the US class system, instead it’s the EU speed limit (more accurately 25 km/h).
WayAcceptable1310@reddit
Just stay under 30 and slow to 15-20 when there are other people around (or lower for kids, dogs, heavy traffic etc... I pass at a crawl for them). Past riding respectfully and keeping to 30 or below I couldn't care less what someone is riding whether bike, scooter, onewheel, whatever. Just being respectful of others, predictable, and not reckless is enough.
Enforce a speed limit and behavior standards instead of getting lost in the weeds trying to categorize vehicles. Maybe a generous weight limit if we're really concerned about safety, since impact energy is a product of speed and weight with speed being the dominating factor. But as far as pedals vs throttle, whatever as long as you're not being a hazard to those around you.
E-Motos are definitely their own thing though and IMO they are either dirt bikes and should follow all the existing rules for those (off-road use on private property only) or they are motorcycles and need to be on-road and following motorcycle road rules only. It's just not complicated.
Proxy345@reddit
Funny enough majority of ebikes in the US can reach 28mph by throttle alone lmao.
xraynorx@reddit
I have a class 3, and that’s kind of where I draw the line. I’m a decent bike handler and have been riding for decades, but I wouldn’t put just anyone on a 28mph bike.
I have nothing against throttle e-bikes, but I do think ya ought to at least pedal a little bit. Give me a boost button instead.
wturber@reddit
IMO, the "line should be"
Motor assist up to 25 mph. I don't care about whether there is pedals assist or not. I'm also fine with up to maybe 2000 watts of motors (tricycles, cargo bikes, hilly areas, etc). The main thing is speed limiting the motor assist but I can also go along with some kind of total weight limit as well. This is for the U.S.
My thinking is that 28mph is stupid from an enforcement standpoint. Because we round to the nearest 5 mph in the U.S., 28 mph really means 30 mph. And for me, that's pushing the limits of bicycle brakes and tires for a vehicle that is mostly bicycle-like. So set the limit to 25 mph and you have a gap between 25 and 30 mph for rider and law enforcement discretion. I've ridden a class 3 ebike for 20,000 miles or more and I know that my typical speed ranges between 20-25 mph to conserve battery. 25mph is a very reasonable and practical speed assist limit.
I know of special needs people and special situations where more motor power would be useful. And so long as assist speeds aren't exceeded why not make it that much easier for an ebike to deal with hills and large loads more easily.
And total weight matters because the damage a vehicle can do is strongly correlated to its kinetic energy while in motion. The formula is 1/2 mv\^2. Velocity increase the KE faster, but the weigh of the bike does matter. For instance, a 100kg bike gains 44% more kinetic energy by increasing its speed to 30 mph. If you wanted to get more nuanced, you could allows for a greater bike weight but limit that class to 20 mph.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Because we round to the nearest 5 mph in the U.S., 28 mph really means 30 mph
I think that limit originated from metric - 45kph \~ 28mph
wturber@reddit
Yes. I think that is right. Another reason why 28 mph in the U.S. is dumb. Were we metric, then we'd round to the nearest 5 kph and debate 35, 40, or 45 kph. We wouldn't have 43 kph anywhere.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
except the bikes were designed for worldwire market, so they are built for metric (as well they should).
wturber@reddit
Dude, the speed limit is a simple tweak in the electronics. If you can have a Class 1,2,3 sticker requirement for U.S. bikes, requiring that the software be set to 25 mph is simple.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
That's where the 750W limit also some into the classification.
wturber@reddit
How so? The limit is the same for Class 1,2 and 3. It is independent of speed limits. Speed limits are created by the electronics. You could have a 2000 watt more that is speed limited to 20mph. The need to control motor power is actually very small - especially since police have no good way to check motor power. So just regulate speed. Simpler and cleaner.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
So you're saying that because you can illegally modify a bike, the laws shouldn't apply?
wturber@reddit
You seem to have completely misunderstood what I wrote. Maybe if you explain your comment as I asked we could figure out where the confusion is.
DonnPT@reddit
That's an interesting one I haven't heard before - built in speed limit inversely related to weight. I like it, because it makes room for heavier utilitarian uses, like bicycle delivery etc.
iSellNuds4RedditGold@reddit
2.
Anything that more than doubles what a human can sustain for an hour is not a bike.
danny_ish@reddit
My e bike is a beach cruiser style. I can sustain 24 mph for an hour with assist on 1/5, with it on 0 i can sustain 16 mph for an hour. Crank the assist the 5/5 and 28 for an hour is easy. My regular road bike I can sustain 28 for an hour with some difficulty, 32 for larger groups and less time. 24 would be an easy pace. The road bike weighs 1/3 of what the e bike weights, but the e bike still only weights 1/3 of what i weigh.
quasio@reddit
The moderators control this subreddit. Its like joining a band and trying to kick the founding member out. I've come here to see what the rules of the subreddit allow. Ironically the debate posts are also flooding out the "legal ebike"posts as much as the emotos are. If its laws and regulation change you want , you gaining much traction arguing in an international subreddit?
blezzerker@reddit
I think its REALLY dumb that we tacked on three classes of ebike rather than making a single system for classifying all speeds of two wheeled transport.
Class 0 - Bicycles Class 1 - 10mph pedal assist Class 2 - 20mph w/optional throttle Class 3 - 35mph. Legally mandated helmet, drivers license with no endorsements. Includes scooters, mopeds and (relatively) high power ebikes Class 4 - Unlimited, requires a Motorcycle Endorsement on your driver's license.
I'd even like an intermediate class that will go 55 for country roads but isn't expressway capable, there's a lot of nothing in my area though, so they wouldn't have high demand in a lot of markets.
Philstar_nz@reddit
totally agree,
class 0 and 1 can be on shared use paths
class 2 can be in cycle lanes
class 3 on city streets
class 4 on highway/motorway
as for community at point 4 on the info graph, it is a moped if it has a throttle not an ebike
blezzerker@reddit
Even that is too restrictive for me.
My community doesnt have all those different kinds of infrastructure and they aren't contiguous, so their has to be allowances for riding higher power vehicles at the lower speeds, otherwise the city I've lived in and around my whole life is legally only traversable by car.
Maybe a weight restriction to distinguish between "human-powerable" light transport and heavier vehicles like scooters and motorcycles that have greater potential liability.
There's going to be a learning curve on both sides. Riders need to learn to ride appropriately for the circumstances and recognize that powered transport isn't the same thing as "a bike" while communities are going to have to learn that a throttle means grandma can go on bike rides with the kids and flat broke wage workers can make it home safely from their 12 hour shift.
pirategirljess@reddit
Where does cruse control fit in. Well, I wrap a rubber hair tie around mine for constant throttle.
Heavy_Bicycle6524@reddit
I have a pedal assist bike where the motor cuts out at 25Kph. That’s totally fine for me. I wouldn’t mind an extra gear or two though.
Sussyfard6969@reddit
To me it’s 4
single_plum_floating@reddit
I really do feel like 2 should be unregistered and anything 3+ needs more registrations and compliance requirements.
there are many bike shaped Chinese specials on the road that have no business travelling at 35km/h
And while a 45km/h ebike is fun (i know). They really, REALLY should have mirrors and indicator light requirements.
Ok_Reception_3852@reddit
If you’re an adult, who cares? Your bike, your responsibility. Just don’t endanger anyone on the sidewalk or bike lane if you are 3 and beyond.
Jessica1234567891011@reddit
I agree. Most people want that and my bike does exactly that. I'd like it to go faster but karens won't allow that because we must treat a 70 pound bike like a 2,500 pound car if it goes up to 35.
stormdelta@reddit
I'm generally happy with the three class system for ebikes, but we desperately need updated regulation for e-mopeds. Right now, most states' laws are still written for gas mopeds, and most limit to only 30mph which isn't terribly practical since a lot of US cities have difficult to avoid 35mph+ roads all over the place. I think this would also help with discouraging illegal e-mopeds.
I do think there's some grey area with throttle to 28mph. A throttle doesn't actually make the bike any faster, and while I can agree with arguments for not allowing it from the "products sold to the public" side, I don't think it's a huge deal if someone goes well out of their way to build a bike that does.
slacknsurf420@reddit
throttle is necessary even with PAS at 30-40mph because I may have to change from bike lane into road, and slow downs are common switching lanes with 2 lane traffic but with throttle you have to hold throttle or engage cruise control which is totally motorcycle territory but the conflict is letting go of throttle briefly slows the bike as I wait for PAS and my legs to catch up -physical gear changes are necessary even a brief 5 at 30-40
otherwise no I pedal at 40mph even and if I can't maintain I lower PAS
SonicKiwi123@reddit
I think throttle/pedal assist to 28mph is where the absolute limit should be. No power limit but maybe rather an acceleration limit. This is slightly in excess of the current limits of 28pas/20throttle but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll see more people riding in traffic with ebikes since most of the ones in traffic are far in excess of this. Nobody should be going faster than 28mph on an e-bike. Nobody should be riding an ebike like it is a slow moped either. The way this would ideally work would be that most people ride at 20mph with the extra 8mph as headroom. 25-30mph is right around where the handling dynamics start to change to be more motorcycle like anyway, based on my experience having used an ebike that tops out at 28. Either update Class 3 or create a Class 4.
Having better systems in place to be able to register and use electric mopeds that slot in between e-bikes like Aventon and e-motorcycles like Zero would be really nice, too.
Just my opinion,
UltimateGammer@reddit
It's the throttle.
Throttles change the game.
Worried_Document8668@reddit
no they aren't required on any way. Throttles aren't even available here in the EU and people get by on cargo bikes just fine. Mid drive and gears is key
Moof_the_cyclist@reddit
Beyond #3 I see you as an e-motorcyclist. Get tags, insurance, and stay off paths and bike lanes.
Worried_Document8668@reddit
imo the EU system has the clearest legal distinctions with fewer grey areas.
So it's step 4 for me, with the caveat that 28mph pedal assist needs a moped license and can't go on bike infrastructure, like a moped
Killer7_2@reddit
I don't really care at all. I use a pedal assist that can go 28 with the motor alone, supposed to be 36 but I'm in NY so I figure they had to restrict it. I will not go anything over pedal assist though cause then you need a motorcycle license and you gotta insure it and all that crap. Might be different in other states but for me it's not worth it. Also they're just as expensive as a motorcycle so I'd rather get that.
John-AtWork@reddit
I agree with you at No. 7. But I also feel like there should be a path to ride emotos legally on the street. The manufacturer should put in some effort to make them more street legal. Honestly, they are awesome low cost transportation technology.
BoneZone05@reddit
I agree. But I’m a motorcyclist who’s sour about having to pay for licensing and insurance when people with electric motorcycles seem to get on just fine without it lol
ProfessionalLaw1362@reddit
ebike is 20mph throttle emoto/emoped no pedals 35+ mph
cycling-expat@reddit
No one here will like my answer so I won't give it.
wkearney99@reddit
#4 is the last line as a bike. Everything after is an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle. Certainly for trails, as unless you're pedaling you really aren't aware of how much force is being torn into the surface of the trail.
QuinceDaPence@reddit
You need no license or registration to fly a Part 103 Ultralight Aircraft. That's under 250lbs and under 63mph.
I personally think bikes and boats should follow a similar rule (just adjusted to make sense).
Call it 20mph and some reasonable weight. Or just make it a straight power limit to whatever horsepower an olympic athlete can do on a bike at peak, that looks to be 3.6 horsepower. Don't worry about gas or electric. Coincidentally this is close to what a lot of 50cc scooters or those bicycle conversion mopeds make and they should be allowed as well with no government bullshit.
frog_mannn@reddit
Class 3 with throttle is max
Connect_Client_9620@reddit
I just bought an Ultra Bee, and I ride it both on the roads and trails. Got yelled at by a mountain biker two days ago, (he was just jealous cuz he has to pedal like a loser) and that was the only issue I’ve run into. Most people are just curious about the bikes
nobikeno@reddit
Even #7 is questionable!
_le_slap@reddit
8+ is fine with me
I have a motorcycle license and an umbrella policy. You guys whine too much.
grand305@reddit
#4 for me.
This one. Higher speed, that by Texas law (30mph or higher) it counts as a motorcycle.
I read about it. Was like “oh yeah, we have that law”.
ShakataGaNai@reddit
Pedal assist to 28. That's a getting spicey speed, it also requires a lot of work to get going that fast. So you're *pushing hard*.
Anything without pedals or able to do 30+ is no longer a bike, it's a motorcycle.
While I personally do thing throttles should be a thing, I also appreciate that throttle to 20mph is a reasonable compromise for the mobility impaired. 20mph is a speed someone could reasonably pedal at as well, so it's not "stupid fast compared to everyone else".
So the line is 4
Au_Fraser@reddit
Why does this matter
Zenigata@reddit
I think the vast majority of Europeans who ride a mixture of bikes and ebikes think 15mph pedal assist only is about right.
Feels slow when you're on an ebike but you dont want ebikes moving faster than everyone else on bike paths.
lf you want to blast along like a motor vehicle then get in the road.
1TBSP_Neutrons@reddit
"Get in the road" and promptly get ran over by a lifted truck doing 50mph in a 35mph zone.
There isn't a one size fits all solution here. I think if people ride respectfully and responsibility, top speed doesn't really matter. If I'm going 30mph in a bike lane on a 45mph road, who am I harming? I definitely keep it under 20mph on shared paths.
Ok_Log_2468@reddit
20 is crazy fast for many shared paths. There are a couple in my city that road bikes zip around on, but most of them are predominantly pedestrian paths. I usually take my analog bike into the road if I see more than a couple people. If I can't safely navigate the road and the shared path is crowded, I do the polite thing and walk the bike for a bit.
Are you able and willing to take the lane when passing a slower cyclist in the bike lane? Or will you slow down to avoid passing them? Tbh, a painted bike lane on a 45 mph road isn't very safe. I probably wouldn't ride there at any speed. I'd choose a slower, parallel street where I could ride full lane. 30 mph would be over the speed limit on many of those streets though.
1TBSP_Neutrons@reddit
I rarely see anyone on the short stretches I use a shared path. I take a lane to pass the occasional slower cyclist. I wish I had other options than a 45mph road with a painted bike lane, but the infrastructure is a joke.
Zenigata@reddit
You might be many won't and even 20 is too fast.
Ebikes should not deprive cyclists of their only safe spaces. 15mph or get a license and registration and no bike infrastructure for you.
1TBSP_Neutrons@reddit
I'll slow down to 10mph to pass pedestrians, there is rarely anyone around. I think we ride on very different paths.
CVGPi@reddit
8 and above should be licensed and plated but with relaxed FMVSS or CMVSS rules, 9 should be mandatory insurance.
KaboodleMoon@reddit
6 is the final step for me too, but I can see the argument for 4, and would accept no throttle allowed with a PAS Limit of 28mph if that's the "easy" place to draw the line.
The biggest thing legislation wise, is it needs to be an EASILY DEFINED line that is also EASY TO SHOW.
The problem with limits on throttle control is some bikes are coming with/being modded with "legalize me" buttons that are kinda hidden, and it's just getting ridiculous how many hoops people are jumping through to ride an E-moto like an e-bike. So from the lawmaker point of view "No Throttles at all" just makes sense as a clear line for cops to look for.
kingsinger@reddit
6 seems like a reasonable line, which is why it's the curent line in many US states.
MentalThroat7733@reddit
I've been riding a 1500W non limited ebike for almost 7 years but I ride it like a "bicycle" and I'm not an ignorant twat so nobody cares. I even spent a while talking to a bylaw enforcement officer about it because he was interested in getting an ebike for his son. I regularly see people on regular bikes who are significantly less courteous than ebike riders. I'm glad enforcement is cracking down on emoto kids doing wheelies down the street and riding way too fast on public paths.
RedditBot90@reddit
My full opinion is pedal assist but it should be a percentage of your (meat power) wattage output; probably non-linear curve (higher output at lower speeds). Pedal harder, get more assist.
Anything with a throttle are emoto IMO.
Ok_Log_2468@reddit
If they want to ride in a bike lane, 20 should be the cap for pedal assist imo. Sometimes people get faster than that in city bike lanes on acoustic bikes, but those are experienced riders who know how to safely pass slower riders. I don't care how fast people go if they're willing to bike in the car lane.
dejavu2064@reddit
Yeah the people riding push bikes at 20+mph naturally have a lot of experience riding bikes. Someone who has never rode a bike in their life suddenly riding 20+mph on their first day with a throttle e-bike is a hazard putting everyone around them at risk.
In Europe you can still get these bikes (up to 45km/h) it's just a requirement to have insurance/registration. Seems fair to have a lower limit for unregistered bikes but have some basic requirements for the ones that could be dangerous.
Ok-Design-6143@reddit
Glad you stated that it is your opinion.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Why is higher speed required to show the benefit of an ebike?
smakusdod@reddit
Nothing beyond 2. License and insurance after that.
srlarsen1@reddit
All of them are less lethal (to others) than cars.
ocrohnahan@reddit
My perspective is that people are driving around in 2 ton monster size vehicles where they couldn't see an SUV directly in front of them and we are bickering about e bike details. I think that anything that gets people out of their damn cars is good and they should be required to use them in a responsible manner.
ShutYourDumbUglyFace@reddit
The law in my state says #6 and below are e-bikes and legal.
Ghost29772@reddit
Maybe I don't belong here as an EUC rider, but if a vehicle is designed to be used for multiple areas, and can operate safely within those areas, what's the issue?
For once, everyone can have a single vehicle they can use to commute, travel, and explore any terrestrial area. Why stand in the way of progress like this?
If the issue is behavior then address the behavior. This is like if we banned submarines instead of fighting Germany.
KI6WBH@reddit
Me I would personally like to be capped at 25 miles an hour with throttle or pedal assist so just upping 5 mi from the standard class 2, that way I'm not impeding traffic in places like school zones and other communities that are all naturally set at 25 miles an hour
QualityPixel@reddit
There is a time and place for every kind of e-bike. People just need to learn where it’s appropriate to ride which and how to do it legally.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
I just like my ebikes to look like a bike, have pedals, and be able to go 50mph on 50mph roads and 15mph on greenbelts. I'll pedal if I want and not if I don't. Non-negotiable really, not exactly my problem if some chuds foam at the mouth for me riding as appropriate for the area I'm in.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
so.... you want a motorcycle...
WarcraftTurok@reddit
As long as it passes for a bike, goes as fast as I'd like it to, has torque, lasts 50 miles throttle only, and I can ride it where I ride bikes, and doesn't require registration and insurance, call it whatever you want. I'll keep calling it an ebike until it doesn't have working pedals. Have a wonderful life my friend!
CraziFuzzy@reddit
And there-in lies the problem. Speed enforcement is virtually impossible on dedicated bike trails, which is why it ends up needing to be enforced at the manufacturer/sale end of the product cycle.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
Most of mine are limited to typical speeds, I just swap the controller or motor for similar looking but higher spec parts. It's just not fun without any torque.
I wouldn't mind a compromise where we get a speed limit of 35-40 mph BUT we have all the torque we want to get up to those speeds quicker. 75% of the fun is in the torque and the other 25% lies between 30-40mph I can't do this whole "low speed low torque stay in the street and get hit by a car bc how dare you ride 15mph on the greenbelt but move at the speed of traffic while in traffic" attitude half the sub has.
fullybonded@reddit
Sure. The problem is "chuds" who say the same thing as you will quietly go 50mph on the greenbelts when they think nobody is around simply because they have the capability.
If you aren't pedaling, it should be a motor vehicle. An EV motorcycle going 15mph isn't allowed on a bike path despite being bike shaped. Why not? Because it is capable of absurd speeds, is quite heavy, and requires no input from the driver other than a throttle.
Defining a vehicle by how individuals use it is an absurd position to occupy and unenforceable from a safety or legality standpoint. The capability of the vehicle is how we define it, not how its being used by an individual. You can drive a pontoon plane on a lake but that doesn't make it a boat. The rules governing its use are the rules for planes, but it still has to follow port speed while near the marina.
Devils8539a@reddit
#4 Class 3 max.
Anything else fine, but stay off the bike paths cause you're not a bicycle at this point go ride with the cars.
aussierecroommemer42@reddit
A combination of 2 and 5 is legal in my state. Throttle up to 6 km/h (~4mph) , pedal assist up to 25 km/h (~15mph). I'd be happy drawing the line at number 3 with a throttle
MowieWauii@reddit
Are you an adult? 8. Are you a child? You don't need a battery or a motor.
darkthewyvern@reddit
That’s not what this sub is read the rules
nsfbr11@reddit
What is the point of this. The issue isn’t the vehicles themselves for the most part. It is the lack of regulation and licensing for the things that are no longer bikes. Class 1 in the US is 20 mph. Nothing is 15. EU is 25 kph.
For me, anything above 20 mph, and anything that does not require pedaling to provide significant power should require a registration, insurance and a license. The tricky part is what kind of license.
RainbowUnicorn0228@reddit
I have a simpler definition.
Can you pedal it without the use of the motor and actually ride it easily? If yes, it’s an e-bike. If no. It’s an e-moto.
Put simply bikes are simple machines you pedal to move. If you cannot easily move it by pedaling, it’s not a bike.
Turtley13@reddit
Where I’m from. Anything with a throttle is banned
Street_Swan2829@reddit
1
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Three things, sticking peddles on a motorcycle doesn't make it a bicycle which is what a lot of companies are currently doing. Every state in the USA has a 28 mph cutoff which seems fair.. Most states also limit any ebike of any kind to 16+ or 15.5 with a learners permit, which also makes sense. We don't allow underage kids to drive electric cars just because they are electric, now do we. 2 wheels shouldn't be any different
WhichProgrammer9110@reddit
Wait I have pas and a throttle, both take me to max 26.5 ( was 20 but I "overclocked") is that illegal
this_broken_machine@reddit
Hard 2.
Mainly for adaptive reasons. I’m losing trail access, fines for violating a 15mph speed limit went from 100 to $300… fines for riding no hands are now $500… a direct result of this issue with out-of-class e-bikes and emotos.
We will lose trail access locally this year.
Class 1 is too much
weejiaquan@reddit
It's low key kinda fucked up how my road bike can exceed 60kmh just fine but my daily ebike can't exceed 15 and I have to pedal
SK_Ren@reddit
Pretty sure you need license/insurance to ride the road bike... on the road. You don't for the ebike. Thats the difference. (At least in Washington State you don't for Class 1&2, Class 3 needs a license/insurance for road use, still limited to bicycle taffic laws. ymmv in other jurisdictions)
weejiaquan@reddit
No like road bike that I pedal, full carbon and stuff not the motorcycle
SK_Ren@reddit
Ah, in that case you're a monster if you are pushing 60 on pedals.
Muramusaa@reddit
I think 30 or 35mph is fine as regular bikers can reach that speed, but only on roads or straight ways with clean visuals, though gotta be focused the whole ride!! the issue is teaching smart bike techniques and rules. Like stay to the right of the path, stay 20mph on sidewalks or trails with lots of people, always be sure of the other people around , alert of the other lane, be straight and true on your path, don't be a jackass as you swerve all around into others lanes and confuse people. Know your distance of speed and time of attack, knowing your space and theirs. Also gauging bad spots for take overs or needing to be more careful and to the right of the path like curved turns or blind spot turns like alleyways or bushes, bridges or tunnel ect ect. Its doable but you gotta learn...then be a blind child who doesn't care to be a better rider and civilian.
Fourleafcolin@reddit
if you have a fucking throttle, it’s not a bike. end of story.
How are you all not embarrassed trying to fit in so hard with the bikes?
Just call it a moto, come to terms with your laziness, and call it a day
KennyBSAT@reddit
My wife has one leg. She enjoys riding a bike, and can do so just fine from about 5-18 mph. But without a throttle she can't get from stopped to 5 mph.
Ebikes open up biking to a whole lot of people. You don't have to be elitist or ableist.
Fourleafcolin@reddit
not being elitist or ableist. never said she couldn’t or shouldn’t do exactly as she pleases.
All i’m saying is that if you pull a throttle to accelerate, you aren’t “biking”
o_Divine_o@reddit
There is no authority above self. It's my life and I'll do whatever I see fit..
KappnCrunch@reddit
I actually don't care and don't even consider them a problem. I'd rather give teenagers ebikes than cars.
S3ANbz@reddit
Idc what it is capable of as long as it appears like a normal functional bicycle. I hate it when people ride what is essentially a motorcycle on bike trails with pedals , its clearly not something youre pedaling .. i have the ride1up vorsa it goes 31mph on throttle but also rides like a normal bike and looks like a normal bike
Schemeckles@reddit
Where I live it's "Throttle until 20mph".
Which to me is plenty fast.
I always see the argument of..
"Well, it should be faster, I can go faster than that on a regular bike"
Well, yes - most people can. However, unless their a trained cyclist - They're not doing that for more than a few seconds unless their going downhill.
kenyasanchez@reddit
Nothing beyond 3 belongs on the sidewalk or a trail where pedestrians, pets and children go for recreation.
mdjak1@reddit
Has to have working pedals with an adjustable height seat post so the pedals can be the proper length away for decent leg extension. It can have a basic thumb throttle that is more like an on/off button. I would say my Lectric XP4 750 is a proper e-bike and fits the above criteria. Technically it does fit into #6 but easily passes as #3.
slowfox65@reddit
Class 1 - no throttle.
EndSmugnorance@reddit
My line is 7 or 8
Throttling over 25mph (common residential speed limit) is e-moto territory.
No pedals is an explicit admission it’s no longer a bicycle lol.
Podalirius@reddit
What is the problem with 4, which is where im seeing most areas draw the line? Why do people need a throttle on their bicycle?
rampantoctopus@reddit
This list stops making sense after #4. The latter points are subjective.
I happen to think level 3 should be the max for something to be considered a e-bike, but this graphic is baiting people to fight and doesn’t help.
Joaquin_Portland@reddit
List stops making sense after #1. Class 1 goes to 20 mph in the US. Class 2 is Class 1 + a throttle.
mataliandy@reddit
I'm ok with 4, but would prefer there be an age limit on 3 and 4. Kids brains are particularly vulnerable to impact, and even more vulnerable to stupid decisions.
Dull_Ad5440@reddit
It has a motor therefore it is a Moped.
Spiritual_Wafer_2597@reddit
yk it says all thiings electric bikes from motorcycles to pedal assist
other lightweight electric vehicles are welcomed too
certifr1ed@reddit
Thread locked?
burieddeepbetween@reddit
Yak yak yak while the world burns.
BlueMageNeedsFood@reddit
Just let me ride what I want and you ride what you want.
DalinsiaValkyrPrime@reddit
I’m waiting til’ we get an actual full-on Harley Livewire on the sub and see people get all aggressive towards them even if they have literally everything legal.
I’m all for treating this like the main hub. I think of it like how in a game sub, take something like Apex Legends, there are subs for specific character mains. You got the main sub which has everyone, but then you got subs for the dedicated characters like Wraith, Wattson, and Loba.
In this sense, you got r/ebikes, but you also have r/hyperebikes, r/ElectricBicyclesONLY, and r/electricmotorcycles for examples.
As long as no one is actively promoting risky riding or running from the cops, I don’t really care all too much. People are gonna act stupid on some bikes and where it’s posted doesn’t change anything about the riders who do the dumb shit.
It should be known that I’m mostly from the ElectricScooter sub where most people don’t mind too much whether you have a WEPED Sonic that is practically death on a standing platform or a solid little Mac G2. A lot of us actually have both a small little commuter and a more enthusiast scooter. Most of our tension is more of a brand thing instead of legal thing.
thereia@reddit
4 should move to between 6 and 7.
Summerlycoris@reddit
I draw the line at 3, admittedly because thats what i've got. (Pedal assist to 25kph.) And mostly because going further than that puts you in illegal territory where I live.
Late-Button-6559@reddit
Aussie laws are 2.
I’d like 3.
I’m fine with banning throttle bikes, and high speed.
slimypeters@reddit
The bicycle was invented in the early 1800s and rules and laws started being introduced later years in the 1800s. Helmet and Lane laws introduced 1980s. And till this day new laws are implemented for regular bikes.
So I’m thinking it may take awhile for laws to catch up to e-rides too. Unless the Oil Companies lobbying the Politicians hard to ban them.
If you go too slow, it’s bad. If you go too fast, it’s bad. Come on now! Just let us ride freely! I mean why do they make cars go 180mph or up but you can’t even go 80mph in most places.
Militant_Triangle@reddit
You know, speed limits along with WEIGHT limits on bike paths solves this. Well, you got to enforce the law just like with cars. This the most stupid ass fight ever when enforced speed limits has a track record of working for HOW long now? If it weighs more than like 70-80 pounds, its a motorcycle or scooter kind of thing. Getting lost in the sauce about this crap is stupid. Its akin to an econo car VS ferarri kind of thing. And guess what, speed limits solve that.
Little shits doing street take overs is NOT an ebike issue. Its a little shit issue. Confiscate their shit, throw them in juvi, and fine their dumb ass parents. problem solved.
Mr_Saturn1@reddit
I'm at #6, a throttle is fine but over 20 mph starts to make you a danger to pedestrians and other cyclists.
am0x@reddit
Snoo53769@reddit
Gearing on mtbs make 28 difficult
Theworker82@reddit
Owz182@reddit
Pedal to 20 has been fine for me
mityman50@reddit
Jesus this place
mazarax@reddit
3½
bradland@reddit
Draw what line? The line at what is/isn't an e-bike is a legal definition that varies by jurisdiction.
Outside of that, it's all semantics. To quote Shakespear, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Certain groups can call e-motos "e-bikes" all they want. It makes no difference.
porkchop_d_clown@reddit
I would draw the line between 4 and 5, TBH.
Hungry_Orange666@reddit
Speed and power limits are just very hard to enforce as they are just setting on the controller, and can be easly changed.
Only thing that can be really enforced is ebike mass and battery voltage.
If anybody really wants to remove risk to pedestrians and regular cyclist, regulation have to be based on vechicle mass and battery voltage.
TThor@reddit
I purely like having a throttle to give myself a boost from a full stop, especially when sharing the road with cars. other than that I basically never touch it (it just eats battery anyway)
NorthNorthAmerican@reddit
I’m fine up to #4
After that, go find somewhere else to ride besides the bike lane/path/bridge
soopahfly82@reddit
Depends what you're wanting to do. Mountain bike? Number 2. Road bike? Number 3.
Everything else? License.
Sodisna2@reddit
I'm in 3 and 4.
APisAccounting@reddit
I have a lectric expedition, if you unlock it, it goes 28mph and it has a throttle. The throttle helps a ton with a loaded up cargo bike. I pedal and only use throttle to pick up and go.
GoodEngineerBadSpy@reddit
Pedal assist only, torque sensing only. If you're not putting your own watts in, you're just riding a Rube Goldberg motorcycle.
/ducks
bkey1970@reddit
I have a throttle for assist in getting started. I’m good with that. I’d love to have more speed. Make the throttle more along the lines of a boost/starter and then cut it out.
BrianDerm@reddit
I would be happiest has the US settled on #3 or #6. It's the closest to 'typical adult bicycle rider".
Speedtospare@reddit
If ebikes are limited to 32kph (my area) then all road bicycles should be as well. We have riders that Rach over 60kph in some locations.
Top speed and weight should only be the considerations. Who care of its 250w or 1000w. What is it going to do if speed is limited? Climb hills better? 😂
I don't have pedals on my bikes and never will. I cannot pedal at all. It's physically impossible. I love riding around but because I can't pedal it shouldale my rides illegal.
Sleepis_4theweak@reddit
3 is where it needs to stop. 20mph or 32kph is more than fast enough. Even hitting someone or being hit at that speed is life altering
robotcoke@reddit
8 is the line. Whether anyone rides it like a bike or not, it CAN be ridden like a regular human powered bike up until #8.
From Merriam Webster Dictionary:
Bicycle: a vehicle with two wheels tandem, handlebars for steering, a saddle seat, and pedals by which it is propelled
From dictionary.com:
Bicycle: usually propelled by pedals connected to the rear wheel by a chain, and having handlebars for steering and a saddlelike seat.
So quite literally they are bicycles up to #8. If they have an electric motor providing assistance, then it's an ebike up to #8. #8 is a motorcycle.
kaffesvart@reddit
How do you feel about bikes with pedals that aren't connected to anything except a sensor?
robotcoke@reddit
If you read the actual definitions I posted from the actual dictionaries, then you'll see that pedals need to directly propelled the bike in order to fit the definition.
Lol, down voting me for posting the actual definition. Just because you want to perturbed the definition is something else like you forgot there is an actual official source for a definition.
Best_Pineapple670@reddit
Any throttle it’s not a bike. I’m fine with pedal assist up to 30.
Ok-Design-6143@reddit
That’s your opinion, buddy.
Best_Pineapple670@reddit
Literally every post is.
Ok-Design-6143@reddit
Riiiight. Some people have the opinion that dogs shouldn’t exist I’m sure. You will have to pry my electric bike (and my dog for that matter) from my cold, dead hands. Take care.
malusrosa@reddit
US Class 1 is 20mph. EU definition of an ebike is 15.5mph/pedal assist only (can have boost button for off the line acceleration) and anything greater is a pedelec/moped.
Joose__bocks@reddit
I was confused by the diagram at first as well, if that's what you're referring to. However, I see now it's likely stating that 15mph falls within class 1 and 20 mph is the class 1 max.
Duct_TapeOrWD40@reddit
With a motorcycle licence in my pocket I'd ride even the Kawasaki e-ninja. Just be road legal if you are on the road. And have fun as safe as possible.
KatsHubz87@reddit
Has to be 7.
Throttles are great for getting off the line at stops. Especially for your larger cargo bikes. But they should cut off at 20 mph.
atlasraven@reddit
Even for disabled commuters?
dejavu2064@reddit
Some people commute their whole lives on regular city/Dutch style push bikes while probably never once exceeding 20mph. I'm not sure why it would be a necessity.
bvz2001@reddit
Yes.
If someone wants to go faster than 20 without pedaling (able bodied or not), then they need to get a different kind of vehicle. It can be a two-wheeled all electric throttle powered vehicle... but that isn't an e-bike, and needs to be regulated as a motorcycle or scooter.
If they are ok with staying under 20 then, like everyone else whether they are disabled or not, they can ride an e-bike which should not have very onerous regulations.
DonnPT@reddit
Well, yes. There are a variety of vehicles for a variety of uses. Someone who can't operate a bicycle, needs another type of vehicle - and an e-bike is a type of bicycle.
I personally don't have anything against using a throttle to control the motor - it makes sense to me, and I suspect replacing it with a PAS system would make my recumbent much harder to ride. I'm just saying, we should have the rules we need, and if they don't suit the needs of the disabled, then e-bikes are not for them.
Unfair_Baseball_8536@reddit
1
chrispark70@reddit
Well, 2 and 3 are wrong. Class 1 is limited to 20mph, not 15 and cannot have a throttle.
Class 2 can have a throttle and is limited to 20mph.
The line, as you put it, is perfectly clear. An e-bike has some form of electric propulsion and follows the class system. If a bike has no electric propulsion, it's a bicycle. If it has electric propulsion and follows the class system, it's an e-bike. If a bike has electric propulsion and does not follow the class system, it is NOT an e-bike. What it actually is really isn't very important. For our purposes, we only know it is NOT an e-bike.
nrsys@reddit
Up to #3 for a license free bike that anyone can ride.
4 to #7 (say up to 40mph) on a limited license/insurance similar to a moped. The speed is getting up to the point I would like to see some regulation and oversight, but still allowing fairly easy access.
Above that is a full motorbike license.
Pretty-Yam-2854@reddit
4 and 6 are and should stay the limits. They work.
Joose__bocks@reddit
I thought class 1 is up to 20mph. I'm curious where you get 15mph from, other than this photo.
https://peopleforbikes.cdn.prismic.io/peopleforbikes/26118e07-5b1b-4159-92eb-5bd5d684f9b2_E-Bike-Law-Primer_July+2023.pdf
Coalrocketeer@reddit
My 2 cents speed limit of 28mph throttle is ok if old enough to drive but only on public road in my part of the states it's the only way to get around certain cities without getting plowed by a bro-doser. If you're on bike infrastructure (bike lanes paths ect) speed limits to 20mph and if you're under the driving age speed limited to 20mph or maybe less (don't have kids so not exactly sure).
This follows my states moped laws pretty closely and I don't see why just because it's electric means that the restrictions should be harder than a gas system
mrjoshmateo@reddit
IMO. If the e-bike faster than a 50cc scooter(around 35mph) that already requires motorcycle endorsement on your driving license, it shouldn’t be legal to ride without proper training/license and insurance.
wisemonkey101@reddit
Lost_in_Space_s@reddit
I’ll say having a throttle assist for my 100lb cargo bike is a near-necessity at times.
AfraidofReplies@reddit
I always find it a little surprising we don't talk more about the design language of the two. Is the vehicle designed to be pedaled? Bike. Is it designed to be ridden without the need to pedal? Moto. How can you tell which is which? Does it look like a f*cking bike? No? Moto. Yes? Then probably an e-bike, but now is when we can quabble about top speed and throttle.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
making rules based on form and not function ends up stalling innovation.
DonnPT@reddit
Those forms already derived from function, though. Bicycles are ideally suited to bicycling, and motorcycles look different for good reasons.
kittiesandcocks@reddit
No bans on bikes just set speed limits and enforce them. Almost all cars are capable of breaking speed limits, they don’t ban the cars they set traffic laws for drivers to obey.
jesseberdinka@reddit
I have pedal assist to 28 and no throttle. I almost never use over 20, but has come in handy on occasion when i want to get off a busy road quickly.
scots@reddit
Nothing over Class 2 allowed in any space that is shared with pedestrian foot traffic. Trails, walking paths, parking lots, residential streets, period.
Everything over, license, plates, helmet, restricted to street use only.
album_iura@reddit
Below line 2 you should have to have a license & insurance
Familiar9709@reddit
The European way is the right way. 15mph is very fast already for bicycles, I don't want to share cycle paths with ebikes going faster than that. Already people are quite bad with ebikes with the 15mph limit, so more would be mad.
Classic_Group8679@reddit
For me personally I like true US Class 1 which is 3 on this chart. However, from a legal stand point I think current Class 2 in US - 20 mph either pedal or throttle is where I’d like to see the line. With that said, I currently have a class 3 bike because of its capabilities but would be fine needing to apply a software update to restrict it to class 1.
This is all to say the only thing I have a real problem with is throttle over 20 on public infrastructure being called a bike. Over that I think you should need to be licensed and registered to be on a road and not allowed on bike lanes
pinglyadya@reddit
15mph requires a helmet.
20-28mph requires a helmet, brake lights, mirrors, front lights and horn.
People, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PUT MIRRORS AND LIGHTS ON YOUR EBIKES. I know having safety features of a motorcycles sounds like an emoto, but mirrors have genuinely saved my life because I live in a country with the world's worst drivers.
AtomAndAether@reddit
I feel like getting overly fixated on speeds isn't really the answer (at least here where its qualitative and not administering regulation).
The main thing is if its designed and used primarily with pedals versus just slapping them on. And likewise the rest of the bike should fit for the comfort and usage of pedalling, most likely looking like a bike.
atlasraven@reddit
I disagree. Safety wise speed is the most important factor in collisions or crashes. I think getting overly fixated on how the bike is controlled isn't really meaningful (a 15 mph pedal assist vs a 15 mph throttle riding thru a park for example).
bvz2001@reddit
I am mostly with you. I think I am somewhere between 6 and 7. personally I would prefer that people have to do some pedaling, but that excludes a fairly large population of people who can't. So I am down with assist (either pedal assist or throttle) up to 20mph. Above that, it should all be human powered (i.e. if you have the juice, go for it. But it will be pretty rare).
The issue is that if we want human scaled communities (we do) then we will need to have speed limits in our cities that reflect that. So all vehicles, even cars, should be capped at around 20mph in the city*. They are already starting this in the Netherlands and it is having huge benefits. E-bikes should be a part of this as well.
*If you can pedal your acoustic bike faster than that, then I say go for it (within reason - if you are using a mixed use trail then hell no)
123ihavetogoweeeeee@reddit
9
ah-Quinncidence@reddit
4 is an E-bike 5 & 6 is moped 7 is scooter 8 is a motorcycle
flecktyphus@reddit
2.
I’m European and apparently so old I get annoyed by all the death traps on this sub 😂
ResidentCoder2@reddit
Personally, and in my subjective opinion? The moment your pedals become fully cosmetic, it is no longer a bike of any kind. I don't care if you have a throttle, PAS, or an incredibly powerful motor. If you took the battery out, or if it were to die, could you theoretically still get it home by pedaling? If so, I think it's a bike.
Legally, though? I strongly believe no e-bike has any business going over 25mph with the assist alone. I'd even go so far as to say 20.
I currently have the Juliet from Eahora and commute with it. The speedometer claims I go a tad over 30, but independent readings confirm the assist only goes to 28. I have had a few accidents, and let me tell ya... the faster you're going, it gets exponentially worse. Even though it would negatively affect me and my commute time, I would 100% support laws and regulations that knee cap ebikes down to 20mph using either form of assist, alongside requiring pedals that function as intended.
I enjoy going fast. I enjoy getting to work at the same time I would with a car. But, literally every accident I had could've been prevented if I was going slower. When you get cut off, or something pops up in your path, arguably the 2 most important factors are break speed (without locking up your wheel(s)) and current speed. You could be 100% clear of fault and still get into nasty accidents because you were going too fast, and you physically cannot break in time without locking up and eating even more shit.
CBrinson@reddit
Let people buy and ride any of them but scale up the insurance and licensure requirements as you go up the list. It is really not hard to avoid gatekeeping and still solve the issue.
atlasraven@reddit
There isn't a line. Obviously, riding on bike lanes or the public road you have to obey the laws in those spaces. But different places, different rules. It's not appropriate to apply a bike lane mentality to a mountain bike trail or backwoords trail or dirt bike track.
gaspig70@reddit
Draw the line at what? They all have their time and place.
SmurfsNeverDie@reddit
Personally 20 mph is high enough. You cant drive in a school zone in nyc over 20 mph.
business_estate8647@reddit
for a bike lane-class 1. for road class 3. anything over class 3 is rated as its ice equivalent and requires a license and insurance.
indolente@reddit
The line for what?
Private ownership on private land? Ride whatever you want. 7+
You want to take your "bike" on city roads and bike paths and dirt paths that are only for bikes or pedestrians? The line should be between 2 and 3. Otherwise your emoto should be registered and insured like other motor vehicles on the road.
YobaiYamete@reddit (OP)
For what's allowed here, since every other thread is people screaming about "emotos" being posted here when most are just class 2 ebikes
CraziFuzzy@reddit
I think the statement that 'most' are class 2 is pretty off base.. most I've seen complained about are 3000W or more.
samthekitnix@reddit
6 but has to have pedals and assist up to the same speed as the throttle
Realistic_Mix3652@reddit
Pedal assist to 20 mph allowed on separated bike trails. If you have a class 3 you have to move into the lane to ride at 28 mph. Throttles should be allowed, but they should cutout at a good hill climbing speed of 6mph that way they can be useful for people who live in hilly cities like Seattle and SF without them being used to zoom about like e-motos.bAnything above Class 3 is a e-moto and can exist just fine, but it should not be considered a bicycle and can't use bicycle and shared use bike/ped facilities same restrictions that moto-scooters have up to motorcycles depending on weight, power, speed. They aren't bicycles anymore and that's what I care about. Before everyone screams at me about their friend with a disability I think throttles should be able to be installed by a certified bike shop with a doctors note that it is need. This is the same process that people go through to get a suicide knob or hand controls added to a car to make it accessible.
megapasha@reddit
As long as it's not blasting at 28+ MPH through bike lanes and obey speed limit on mixed used trails - I'm fine with either of those.
boyengabird@reddit
7
Nihiliste@reddit
I'm thinking 8 is the only cutoff. If you can pedal it, it's still a bike, no matter if it can go 30 or 50mph.
Ravio11i@reddit
8, idgaf
MeximeltExtraCheese@reddit
Wow, a sensible post I agree with. Better take it down mods.