Why does this sub contain mostly posts about e-motos?
Posted by Such-Importance-9253@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 109 comments
Not to say that e-motos aren't allowed in this sub, they are.
But I joined this sub to also see posts of regular bikes that have pedal assist until 25 km/h (don't know what that is in miles per hour, google says 15 mph), and they seem to be much more rare here. Are e-motos simply more common and sold, or whats up?
Billy_Rizzle@reddit
E-motos are more common in The USA than Europe.
The US has a lot of people putting pedals on a Surron like e-moto and claiming they are only ridding an e-bike (what we would call a EAPC). Also, many US police seem sort of relaxed towards illegal e-moto riders. Some states don’t require a license or insurance to ride a moped which something like the Surron Lightbee would considered as, and Florida is one of those states.
Btw, The USA e-bike top speed is faster than ours in Europe’s 25kmh/15.5mph.
US E-bike classifications:
Class 1: pedal assist only to 20mph/32kmh
Class 2: full throttle to 20mph/32kmh
Class 3: pedal assist only to 28mph/45kmh (Known as California pedal assist)
Hybrid Class 3: full throttle to 20mph/32kmh but pedal assist up to 28mph/45kmh
Some states require some form of driver’s license to ride a class 3 e-bike, and New Jersey has a bunch of restrictive laws to ride a e-bike.
Joose__bocks@reddit
I've never heard of hybrid class 3 since all definitions of class 3 include but do not require class 2. Is that a specific state thing?
I think federally it's just 3 classes. I know federal guidelines and federal department rules do not dictate state laws.
blammergeier@reddit
'Hybrid Class 3' means it's a Class 3 with a Class 2 throttle. A Class 3 can't have a throttle ('walk assist' is allowed, I believe). 'Hybrid Class 3' isn't a real definition as much as it is a description.
That said... the three classes are a 'suggestion' that 36 states use (and 14 don't). It's not a federal definition.
stormdelta@reddit
State laws are still actual laws, not "suggestions".
PollutionAway9782@reddit
we are getting into weird parts there. for manfacturing its a suggestion, for the user its a law.
sckuzzle@reddit
AKA an illegal ebike. There's no such thing as a hybrid class 3, legally, and people calling it that are just trying to justify why they are riding an illegal ebike on the road.
Joose__bocks@reddit
I'm afraid your source is not definitive, it's just a screenshot of a diagram.
blammergeier@reddit
It wasn't meant to be definitive, it was meant to be illustrative. Diagrams are good for that.
The source is eBikes.org, which is explaining the three-class system that PeopleForBikes.org has devised and is promoting as model legislation.
Joose__bocks@reddit
Interesting. According to ebikes.org, pedal assist above 20mph with a throttle limited to 20mph is considered classless. The most common definition I've heard thus far is that class 3 can contain a throttle as long as it doesn't exceed class 2 limits. Basically every class can encompass the class below it but doesn't necessarily have to.
I do have some beef with this people for bikes proposal, but that's besides the point and not relevant to what defined class 2/3
Thanka for the info.
sckuzzle@reddit
This is not correct. A class 3 ebike is mutually exclusive with class 2. Class 3 ebikes are not allowed to have a throttle at any speeds. If it does it is not a class 3 ebike.
BoringBob84@reddit
As far as I know, only Minnesota allows dual-class ebikes. Most states (including California) do not. Class 3 ebikes cannot have throttles and Class 2 ebikes cannot provide assistance above 20 mph.
Trentoonzzz@reddit
The classifications are definitely confusing, especially when companies ship it as one classification, but one setting change or cut wire puts it in a different class.
On paper, my Aventon Pace 4 is a Class 2 but a simple change in settings on the app bumps the top speed to 28, but only via pedal assist.. the throttle cuts off at 20mph.
Yet the Classification Sticker on the bike itself says Class 2 with a Top Speed of 20mph.
sckuzzle@reddit
The classification definitions themselves aren't confusing, and are pretty clear. An ebike can be class 2 or class 3, and any "hybrid" is just an illegal ebike.
The confusing part is that companies are lying about the classifications and what is street legal or not.
BoringBob84@reddit
Unscrupulous manufacturers are pushing the law as far as they can. The "People for Bikes" model legislation that most states use states, "... meets the requirements of one of the following three classes."
That statement implies that it can only be one class, but it doesn't explicitly say that, so it is a legal grey area. It also lacks language prohibiting or allowing settings on the bike to change its class.
California has recently clarified their ebike laws to remove some of this legal grey area. The definition for class 3 includes, "a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, that is not capable of exclusively propelling the bicycle." I think it would be difficult to argue that a user-accessible setting doesn't make it "capable."
Joose__bocks@reddit
That's interesting. All of my ebikes are class 3 with the class 3 sticker, but ship set to 20mph max. I just go into the menu to set them to 28mph. One is class 3 only no throttle, and one is class 1-3 with no throttle. Two are class 3 with a throttle that I never used beyond testing that it worked.
Joose__bocks@reddit
Thank you. I was just curious. I've heard of it referred to, just not as a hard rule.
ChefZieronWolf@reddit
Because bike go vroom vroom
captwaffles27@reddit
I think kids and enthusiasts are very excited types about their emotos and performance speed ebikes. So they will be more vocal. They also have a penchant for crashing due to high speeds, getting their vastly more expensive equipment stolen, etc, so youll hear much more of that as well. Additionally reddit is much more full of American posters and the US is generally more friendly to these types of high speed ebikes and motos, despite their illegality, so you'll see much more posts for this reason also.
Try finding a subreddit or discord community around your local area ebikes. Like an EU ebike group or something. Facebook Groups might honestly be not a bad place to start.
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
Don't forget that those types are generally temu pieces of shit, so they break often, leading to more posts about "ho do I fix it"
Speedtospare@reddit
I wouldn't say that is accurate. There's lots of quality units out there Unfortunately most people try to default to the cheapest thing they can buy.
SexiestPanda@reddit
Buy cheap, if you like it enough to the point you break it, buy a quality one
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
A great answer, thanks.
Flaky-Collection-353@reddit
For what it's worth, my bottom-dollar ebike has been changing my life over the past couple of weeks, I just haven't got around to commenting aboht it yet.
PollutionAway9782@reddit
i can peddle 20 to 25 miles an hour. one that only goes 15 does not interest me. maybe if i had a ton of hills
whatsarezaf@reddit
can anyone point me towards a e-bike pedal assist group in Southern California / Orange County?
VoidsFlow@reddit
I absolutely hate the fact that e motos are allowed on this sub (or even exist at all tbh). There is such a massive difference from a class 2/3 ebike, compared to some of the electric powered motorcycles that kids are driving around. The lack of education is going to end up screwing over every single person with an ebike, because too many people have no self control.
AlternativeResort477@reddit
They are by far the most popular e-bikes around
davpad12@reddit
Maybe it's because they illicit so much passion on both sides. Either you love them or you hate them. Some people blame them for the laws being enacted against us. Can't say they're wrong.
NumaNuma92@reddit
I’m also confused about this. Maybe different countries have different classifications about what an E-bike is, but in my country an E-bike is exclusively with pedal assists. Not that i want to change the sub, but seeing mostly E-motos was confusing at first.
snoogins355@reddit
Swing by r/ebikedrama for all the craziness!
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Same in my country. If it's not pedal assisted, it's not legal to bike in bike lane.
DickShapedShit@reddit
Class one is 20mph in the US.
Majority of people on the e-motos are people trying to buy a moped without license/registration.
A small few actually buy them for trail riding or use in remote areas where electricity is much closer than a gas station.
Cities are cracking down more, rural areas are far more lenient (but also lack bike lanes for them to invade).
mandalorian_guy@reddit
Also people with suspended licenses. I'm one of 4 people at my work who ride an E bike and I know at least 2 of the other ones got suspended for OVIs.
thereturn932@reddit
For that some people create r/euebikes
LucidFir@reddit
Mods want the sub to be larger
nsfbr11@reddit
My ebike. I agree with your post.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Wow! Looks sweet
nsfbr11@reddit
It is. The motor is for hills. On the flats, unless there is a brutal headwind, it is all me. Let’s this 63 year old ride like he is 43.
falcongsr@reddit
is it a rear hub motor? are the batteries in the downtube?
i did a stealth road bike build with a small hub motor and a small battery in the seat bag.
i have a small button on my left hood that adds 100W of assist.
on my commute i really like being able to stop at lights in a tall gear and have the bike help save my knees. this takes almost no energy from the battery.
but yeah it's really a 100W headwind helper and help with the occasional hill so i get to work on time.
nsfbr11@reddit
It is a Mahle X20 system which you can find on quite a few high end ebikes. Yes, battery in the downtube. Different assist profiles selectable through a button on the top tube. An app lets you customize the motor map for each.
Really small hub motor with a planetary and clutch so above 20mph the bike freewheels above 19 the torque falls off. In the EU that is at 25kph rather than 20mph, and it may be more abrupt since it feels like the torque fall off is motor emf/battery voltage related on the US version. That is, I don't think they made two different sets of windings for the different markets and when the SOC gets low that fall off goes down to more like 18mph.
I bought it because I got out of riding shape over covid and my commute was 22 miles each way. I was able to do that on my road bike before covid, but it was just never going to happen after. And of course, now my commute is just 5 miles but quite hilly, so I switch bikes between them depending on how I'm feeling. It gets lots of use on the weekends though when I want to go longer than my (now greatly improved, but years older) body will do on its own.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
I just prefer ebikes that go a bit faster than 20mph. 35-50mph is my sweet spot. And it's gotta still look like a bike and have pedals so I can ride it anywhere.
stormdelta@reddit
That's at least moped territory by anyone's definition at that point though. IMO if you're able to go fast enough to safely keep up with vehicle traffic on city roads, that's no longer e-bike (legally/semantically) territory. And 35mph is near the lower bound for that.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
That sounds dangerous. That amount of speed belongs on the road and not among pedestrians.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
Yeah of course, that's why I don't go that fast around pedestrians and pedestrian areas. Just anywhere a bike goes.
CaterpillarKey6288@reddit
In the usa ebikes go up to 28 mph or 45 kph with pedals and throttle only up to 20 mph, under 750w motor. In the uk and a lot of Europe the standard is ridiculously low 25 kph or 15 mph, with pedals, throttle limit of 3 mph for walking assist only, 250w motor. They kinda need a UK ebike form that addresses them.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Holy hell, that's way too fast (45 km/h). It's ok if one drives on the road that fast, but 25 km/h assistance is more than enough for the bike lane.
stormdelta@reddit
For the EU, sure.
For the US, our infrastructure is completely different than yours. I've ridden in both the EU and US, and where 15mph never felt that slow in most of the places I went in Europe, it very much isn't enough in the US to safely make use of our crappy or non-existent cycling infrastructure, and our cities are significantly less dense to boot.
trevaftw@reddit
A lot of bike "infrastructure" in the US is painted lanes with no separation from cars (or just a sparrow so you're in the same lane). Having a higher speed helps you maintain a better speed with surrounding cars and let's you get around more quickly since much of the US is built around cars and places are further apart.
Joose__bocks@reddit
This is my justification. I do not ride on sidewalks and go slow on pedestrian paths, but every road I take is wide and every driver is going a minimum of 10mph over the speed limit. I'm still only talking about class 3 speeds and not emoto speeds.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Very good point, in USA that def makes sense.
stormdelta@reddit
Most of the actual e-motos are heavily downvoted.
Jezon@reddit
There's a lot of blending of tech, They put useless pedal assist on bikes that go 60 km/h and beyond just to get the e-bike classification that doesn't apply to them anyways. Instead of trying to regulate e-bikes, the government should be creating classifications for e-motorcycles so these bikes can be properly registered, licensed and insured if they exceed ridiculous speeds and weights that you can't attain naturally on a bicycle.
Unfortunately, they're giving these extremely heavy and powerful bikes to children in my area and they're killing people and now they're having to figure out how to regulate them.
Prestigious-Royal-82@reddit
The e-World should share what part of the Country they representing . Everyone so secretive 4 No reason. Happy Friday e-Fam!!! Long Beach California is e-crazy and e-Happy!!😆😆😅😅
thirtynation@reddit
Dude what? The overwhelming majority of "emoto posts" on this subreddit are not bikes but rather posts bitching about emotos, posts showing emotos getting towed, posts about kids getting in wrecks with emotos.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Press the e-bike feed icon, like now, go down the feed, what do you see? You see exactly what I'm talking about.
thirtynation@reddit
No clue what you're talking about.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Go to the subreddit home page, and scroll down the food. There's mostly emotos there, I just checked.
thirtynation@reddit
The current front page is mostly regular ebikes right now.
Responsible_Chain551@reddit
The market is flooded with Chinese factories masquerading as everyday users to promote their products. Unlike e-bikes, which demand serious experience in frame design and drivetrain integration, e-motos are incredibly easy to manufacture. That's why they are the perfect target for these low-effort marketing campaigns."
mrwhitewalker@reddit
They are cheap and more popular. We need to have them go to their sub r/emotorcycles and keep this place clean and legal. We can do our part to counter their terrible behavior. Any bike that is not street legal cannot be discussed and posts removed.
band-of-horses@reddit
The /r/emoto sub went private a bit ago, this seems to have driven more people to post about them here as it's gotten more common recently.
_le_slap@reddit
Very interesting. Why did they go private?
M1k0M1k@reddit
Emotos are definitely not more common but they're just kinda more interesting. The people that have them own them because they love them and not because they have to use them to get to work. They also modify them, make them look nice, it's a whole culture.
Most "normal" ebikes are just normal, very overpriced bicycles with the same Bosch motor. They're a very practical, reliable and efficient mode of transport but they aren't all too interesting or fun. Because they're designed for transport meanwhile emotos are designed purely for fun.
Primary_Dimension470@reddit
The 12 year olds and their parents don’t know the difference btwn a bike and moto
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
This is the major reason there are problems with kids and ebikes and emotos.
I think the focus should be on educating these people, rather than passing umpteen million laws that can't be enforced.
I would offer a class that covers the various types of ebikes and emotos. It would cover proper operation and safety. It would cover the laws active in their area. It would show appropriate areas for riding. And, sort of like our motorcycle endorsement class, I would set up a riding area where kids could test their skills and get instruction on how to improve their riding.
Captain_EFFF@reddit
Agreed, most of these people, adults included also need education on regular non motorized cycling as well.
Hand signals, riding with traffic not against it, how to properly take the lane at intersections and avoid driver blind spots.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
You got that right. And don't get me started on night riders with no lights. And for some reason those 'dark' riders prefer black clothing....dumbasses.
comineeyeaha@reddit
I see more posts asking why there are so many emoto posts than I see posts about emotos. Seriously, this question seems to be asked on here every single day.
scruffy69@reddit
Deranged emoto syndrome. Also karma farming.
Unhappy-Plastic2017@reddit
Ebikes just were not as powerful or as cheap as they are now just a few years ago. There was no need for a separate category of electric 2 wheeled transport until more recently because basically no one could afford a ebike that actually can go really fast without assistance.
BWWFC@reddit
don't like? down vote and move on. fwiw it's change quite a bit for the better since even 6mo ago...
Joose__bocks@reddit
The issue with this sub and the other ebike sub is over-inclusion. It would make more sense to have a r/emoto sub and keep the two groups separate.
Jbikecommuter@reddit
Go to ebikecommuter if you want info on actual ebicycles
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Thanks
Purrchil@reddit
To be honest I think Europe needs his own sub about ebikes. 90% of the bikes here are not sold in Europe or strange (self)builds.
rince89@reddit
Yeah... the target demographic seems wildly different, too. In Europe it's 60++ grandpas who are too old for regular bikes and die because they have reaction times measured in business days, in the US it's teenagers that die because they are teenagers
SadisticPawz@reddit
Why does this sub mostly contain people whining about what others ride?
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Can you specify where I whined, thanks.
SadisticPawz@reddit
The subreddit.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Alright 🤝
SadisticPawz@reddit
🤝
ArmchairPancakeChef@reddit
My guess is that it's a hot topic in the ebike world. Kids dying on bikes that are far too fast for their skill level.
benmooreben@reddit
Cause they’re a lot of fun to ride.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Looks cool!
SlashNreap@reddit
Since you saw this sub is a general sub for electric vehicles that fall under the category of "Bike" you'll certainly see pedal-assist bicycles just like you might see Surrons or other things. I never see actual motorcycles like a Zero SR/F or LiveWire posted here because they usually go to r/motorcycles or some other sub.
A few people who are not at all happy with other forms of ebikes made subs like r/ElectricBicyclesONLY. Which, in my opinion, is far better of an alternative for those commenters I see relentlessly shitting on anything but pedal-assisted bicycles.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
It's not that I don't like those posts. I'm just simply curious why pedal assisted bikes are more rare, and usually it's e-motos made to look like motorcycles.
SlashNreap@reddit
Yeah I understand that, just pointing out the kind of environment there is on here at times due to the fact it's all kinds of Ebikes and.. Let's just say varying opinions about them.
Couldn't tell you why pedal assisted bikes are more rare, personally I usually see posts about Lectros and such. I guess this week's been pretty E-moto-y, it's not really like that every time.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
Ah, yes that makes sense!
Applecity82@reddit
Due to most people are lazy haha. I’m just kidding. I would say with fuel getting as bad as it is - a lot of people will switch to these to commute. I would if my work was closer
schm0h4wk@reddit
USA ebikes, europo pedelec More USA here
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
That makes sense definitely.
wcoastbo@reddit
E-motos are trying to exist as e-bikes? Or in the same space as.
trevaftw@reddit
Emotos are absolutely trying to exist as ebikes, otherwise they wouldn't have pedals that functionally do nothing since it's near impossible to pedal without the motor and would instead have pegs since that's how most riders use them.
Mal-De-Terre@reddit
Because class compliant E-bicycles are boring.
UT07@reddit
A few reasons. First, most of the people here are from the States and ebikes are unfortunately hardly regulated here. This means that people who want a motorcycle or a moped but don't want to pay for registration and insurance get an emoped and pretend it's an ebike. The good news is that's changing. Second, junky Amazon emopeds are dirt cheap compared to the price of bicycles from traditional bicycle brands. Third, actual electric bicycles still require exercise and that's not what Americans have in mind when they think ebike.
Relative-Display-676@reddit
because they're cheap and that's what majority can afford.
Familiar9709@reddit
I think it depends on the country, different regulations. Seems USA is more lenient with ebikes
burieddeepbetween@reddit
Oh look, it's this post again.
iH8MotherTeresa@reddit
Oh look, it's this comment again.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
I doubt it. I asked why the e-moto posts are so popular, not that they should be banned.
Fantastic-Aside7041@reddit
is there a sub for ebikes that does exclude emotos? i want that.
Conscious-Salt-4836@reddit
E-motos are somewhat of a threat to pedestrians and cyclists and unfortunately get lumped together with “legitimate” ebikes. One could argue e-motos are dangerously using hiking/biking trails and “generally” e-moto riders don’t observe trail etiquette.
CobaltCaterpillar@reddit
It's because YOU click on posts related to e-motos so Reddit shows YOU more posts like that.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
No. I scroll this spefic sub-reddit feed directly, so that doesn't apply.
digitalaudiotape@reddit
Short answer the kind of extreme/fringe people riding e-motos are also the kind of people who will post online more often.
Normies who ride vanilla ebikes for commuting just go about their lives and aren't chronically online.
YouWillHaveThat@reddit
I feel like this sub is for enthusiasts. Not normies.
Enthusiasts wanna push the limits. Go faster. And then talk about it.
Normies buy a Lectric or something from their LBS and then never think about it again.
Destroyer-Marauder@reddit
I think, like any forum, you just have to scroll past posts you are uninterested in until you reach ones that are pertinent to you.
I do see a lot of emoto discussion here. And those posts do seem to dominate this subreddit. Partially, that's because every time someone posts something about an emoto on here, they get umpteen posts about their legalities which is mostly chaff unrelated to the post made.
Such-Importance-9253@reddit (OP)
That's a great point!
Veggyhed@reddit
Same here