Tow pilot death
Posted by Old_Winterton@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 98 comments
I've been towing gliders for a bit. It was all fine in my head until recently.
Recently, a tow pilot died. Kited, crashed, caught fire, it burned, and he got burned, and died that night.
How do you justify pulling people up in the air to fart around on the weekend in gliders when their inattention can cause my death?
I guess I'm hoping for words besides "we all have to choose the risk", which feels like a cop out, at the moment.
I thought about nomex and helmets and chest-located rope-releases and tost hooks and nose hooks. But those all seem pretty pricey for something I don't strictly have to do.
But I know that sailplanes aren't a thing unless they can get up. And I guess winches aren't some saintly other option. I don't think I can justify it, when I've got my family and this doesn't pay the bills and people do get out of position.
I dunno. Just looking for anecdotes or thoughts. I would like to continue, but the thought of towing currently seems to make even less sense than the act of owning a plane.
dnattig@reddit
If you don't want to tow anymore you don't have to, but maybe it would be worth getting a few flights on the other end of the row rope to see why tow pilots are needed. You might like farting around in a sailplane or the CFIG might try boxing the wake and it gives you a panic attack, so seriously talk to some people and take as much time as you need first.
As a glider pilot myself, I just want to say don't hold back on the glider pilots or ground crew and don't be afraid to release your end of the rope if you ever feel unsafe. Berate the glider pilots (on the ground) if you need to, if we get complacent we deserve it.
If the funds are available, it probably would be worth investing in a safer release (although if it's a Pawnee there are bigger issues coming up the pipeline).
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
wdym by if it’s a pawnee there are bigger issues coming up the pipeline?
dnattig@reddit
https://drs.faa.gov/browse/excelExternalWindow/FR-ADNPRM-2025-20084-00000000000.0001
As far as I know, the FAA is still reviewing comments and has not issued a final ruling. But whatever ruling they issue, it will significantly affect most glider operations.
Correct_Cobbler_4013@reddit
I know nothing about gliders.
What is the reason that everybody don't just use winches?
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
Saratoga has intersecting runways. There’s only about 2,000’ of 14/32 on either side of 5/23. 5/23 gets the jet traffic, 14/32 is heavily used by the glider guys. Not a winch friendly environment.
14060m@reddit
A lot of glider operations in the US aren’t at sites that are winch friendly.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Less capability.
pr1ntf@reddit
A tow plane can take you closer to the lift. A winch just yeets you into the sky, so hopefully there's lift somewhere really close to the airport, which may not always be the case.
For instance, in the winter around here, pilots tow into rotor then catch the wave lift and they're gone for hours in the flight levels. Those flights aren't really possible for us in the winter without a tow plane.
Brotein40@reddit
Are there no means to jettison a tow from the cockpit the same way we jettison an external load on a helicopter?
OracleofFl@reddit
There is, but the Pawnee was too close to the ground to recover apparently.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
he was incredibly low. Below 100’.
OracleofFl@reddit
I am a PPL holder working on my glider rating...I don't think there is enough emphasis on the danger of kiting. It should be a reminder in everyone's preflight checklist.
vtjohnhurt@reddit
If kiting was not explained to you, your instructors are seriously remiss. Gliders have very short pre-launch checklists. One item is 'canopy latched'. Most pilots push up on the canopy to test it. Almost all kiting accidents happen when an unlatched canopy flies open, the pilot reaches up to close it and pulls back on the stick. If the canopy opens, ignore it. The glider will fly okay.
OracleofFl@reddit
It was explained but that doesn't mean it remains top of mind months or years later. Just like skidding on base to final in powered flight, everyone knows it can be deadly but if it isn't top of mind a pilot can do it instinctively without using their gray matter to override the instinct.
vtjohnhurt@reddit
You're only speaking for yourself. I've been gliding for 16 years. There's a kiting accident every few years. Kiting has been mentioned at every club safety briefing.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
In talking about kiting accidents, it is cited that it can occur across three seconds and may require up to 800ft to recover; also, depending on release lever design, it may be difficult to get the lever if negative g's are experienced; also, depending on your equipment, the hook might not release due to the angle of the rope during the event.
Wavebuilder14UDC@reddit
Dang that sounds rough
pr1ntf@reddit
There technically is, but at that phase of flight there is a lot going on in bith cockpits.
MyPilotInterview@reddit
Do you know if this was a CG hook? That club had an accident in 2018 and a CG hook was noted in the NTSB report? Would just towing from a nose hook be safer, and mitigate the risk where you would be comfortable with it?
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
Do you have a link to the report?
MyPilotInterview@reddit
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/97081/pdf
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
Wow.
sailing_in_the_sky@reddit
While CG hooks are more prone to it, kiting can happen with a nose hook. I've seen it happen (thankfully the glider was released in time). Pilot had his canopy blow open during launch and while dicking around trying to close the canopy instead of flying the glider he kited twice. I almost saw two/three people die that day. Scared the crap out of me watching it from the ground.
pronghornpilot@reddit
Do you have a link to the recent accident? Just another tow pilot who is curious.
For me, my gliderport is a community I treasure. And I’m happy to be a part of it. So, the risk for me is worth it.
p33k4y@reddit
I presume it's this one:
https://www.aol.com/news/pilot-killed-plane-towing-glider-195354238.html
vtjohnhurt@reddit
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/570954
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
correct
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
The news articles are, as usual, short blurbs by people who know nothing about flying, so I'd rather not post them. It was in saratoga.
I am not hesitant to glide. I am currently hesitant to continue towing.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
Another moron is the student pilot that filmed the aftermath and sent it to the news, then did an interview live on air.
notnormal999@reddit
Towing gliders was about the most fun I’ve had flying airplanes. It was a total blast. Then I had a couple of “wake up calls.” Not get into the details but one was a crappy pilot (instructor and student) who almost killed me on tow and one was poor maintenance on the tow plane that the club knew about, should had grounded it, but they let me fly it anyway.
So never again, unfortunately.
vtjohnhurt@reddit
The problem with kiting accidents is that kiting is usually caused by an easily preventable pilot error. There's absolutely no mystery why gliders kite. The glider pilot accidentally pulled back on the stick. Glider goes up and pulls up the tail of the towplane (nose down attitude) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cpqFzhM9dY&t=5s
In almost all kiting accidents, the glider pilot forgot to latch the canopy. The side-hinged (or rear-hinged in two seater) canopy flies open and the pilot reaches up to close it (and inadvertently pulls back on the stick. Glider sticks are extremely responsive). We train from day one to ignore an opened canopy. The glider flies okay with an open canopy. Checklist item is 'canopy latched', and most pilots 'push up' to test the latch.
We are also trained to immediately release the towrope should the towplane disappear from view (below the instrument panel). There is no time to 'think through' consequences. The glider pilot must accept the consequences for losing control of his position (land straight ahead, possibly in the trees, and likely survivable). If the glider kites at low altitude the tow pilot will probably die.
The glider in this accident was an ASW 27. It is a top level glider, probably privately owned, and the canopy is hinged in the front, so the canopy will not open even if it is unlatched. I suspect the pilot had a medical emergency. That may explain why he failed to release the tow rope in time.
I'm grateful to all of my tow pilots. The people who tow gliders seem to enjoy it. In most cases, it is their volunteer contribution to their club. They don't get paid, and they might even pay dues. Many tow pilots are also glider pilots who have decided that they prefer to tow. They do it for fun and satisfaction. Towing gliders is a sport, like gliding. Sport involves taking some risk in exchange for benefit. People who fly gliders constantly take risks and sometimes a mistake made by another pilot kills them.
Gliders that tow from a CG hook kite more easily. Newly manufactured gliders are now required to have a nose hook for aerotows. CG hooks are for winching, and many used gliders imported from EU did not have nose hooks. It is possible to add a nose hook to most gliders. I think that towing from CG hooks should be prohibited and tow pilots should refuse to tow from CG hooks. Almost all gliders used for training tow from nose hooks.
MrAflac9916@reddit
There are many reasons I chose to stay at my university 141 to be a CFI. Safety was 60% of those reasons.
slbarrett89@reddit
Do you like instructing at OU? Do you all get many outside instructor hires, or are most of the instructors from in house?
MrAflac9916@reddit
I’m no longer there. 95% in house. Great friendly environment. I trust their maintenance team with my life they are fantastic. Hard to get hours tho bc the nature of part 141 (stage checks, lots of off days for the uni, etc) and SE Ohio has the worst weather of anywhere ever. But Athens is the most beautiful place.
slbarrett89@reddit
I live pretty close and see them flying down to HTS often. I applied during their pool application process, but I understand most 141s like to hire within. Saw they got a few Cirrus planes too!
saml01@reddit
It was the only place hiring is the other 40%.
MrAflac9916@reddit
Nah, not wanting to move was lol
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
I was at the minigolf place just next to the airfield with my son when that happened. Heard a noise and knew instantly it was bad.
I'm around and local if you need someone to talk to, just hit me up.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
Yeah, I’m based here too. I had someone call me asking if I knew anything like 10 mins after it happened and just immediately had a sinking feeling. I’ve seen that orange pawnee more times than i can count. I feel so insanely bad for everyone else dealing with this loss.
fluffy_101994@reddit
By that logic, flying as a recreational hobby shouldn't exist, full stop. Which means you wouldn't be flying either.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
Flying in a power plane: I do not think it carries the same intra-person threat that the towing currently suggests in my mind, or that I am trying to process. Accidents in power planes, when I read about them or see them, are usually someone doing a series of stupid and then something happens that more often involves the individual and their passengers and their aircraft and someone else's property.
The towing, at the moment, feels like: I can be as on top of my flying game as one can be, but john doe can't stay in position, and I can't stare at him 100% of the time if I am to fly my airplane.
In other words, I am asserting that power flight allows me more individual action, and more individual consequence.
JSTootell@reddit
Did you see the woman who got hit by a plane while paragliding?
Do you never hear about mid airs, where someone was doing everything right?
Shit happens. If you think "being on your game" is some sort of magic armor, you need to think again. You can be totally on your game, lose an engine on takeoff, and face plant right into a building having done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG.
You accept the risks, or you don't. If you think it's too much of a risk towing, then don't do it. But don't start thinking GA is "safe" just out of sheer will.
https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/wt7j6j/some_analysis_i_found_of_thursdays_watsonville/
makgross@reddit
I think you don’t understand what kiting is, how fast it can happen, and how little you can do about it. There is nothing comparable in “normal” aviation. You’re not helping.
When towing, the tail frequently wags the dog. You can feel every twitch the glider pilot makes. When this happens on takeoff, that’s a problem.
OP needs to work through it, and telling him it’s just like a midair is seriously tone deaf. No, it isn’t. Midairs are actually rare. Kiting accidents, not so much.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
i know the airport he’s referring to. He was at 60’ when he kited. i think everyone is just shaken and sad.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
I think ""don't think ga is safe just out of sheer will"" is not understanding what is in my head, or at least I am not conveying it in a way that is understandable.
I think that "powered offers more individual action/consequence vs towed flight" is a broad statement, rather than a specific one.
I am familiar, in a personal way, with the concept of drawing a short straw in aviation.
Thanks.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
okay but those are a small minority of GA accidents. I don’t know the stats but I’d imagine a large portion of tow plane accidents are the fault of the other end of the tow rope
320sim@reddit
I don't think OP is saying that GA is perfectly risk free. They're just saying that towing gliders introduces an additional risk, and they're right. It sounds like a risk that they're not willing to take, so they shouldn't
fluffy_101994@reddit
With respect, this could be applied to powered flight too, not just gliders. For example, the old bloke in his 70s who might fly once a month on a sunny Sunday morning in his ultralight?
The person who only flies at country airstrips in a Cessna 172 and only visits a major metropolitan airport once a year for maintenance?
Both are chances for something to go wrong and it's nothing you did specifically.
There was an accident in 2023 on the Gold Coast in Australia where people died due to, in part, faulty radios. Sometimes the Swiss cheese holes line up and there's nothing one party can do.
That's the point I'm making.
felix_AAA@reddit
Thanks for the post and the thinking it triggers, I think it’s important to reassess the risks involved time and time again.
I can’t comment on towing, but I feel similar to you when it comes to powered flight. My gut says that the portion of accidents where there is no carelessness on the pilot‘s side is around 10%. That being said, the Richard McSpadden accident really shook me up. Even though he wasn’t PIC when it happened, it made me aware that even the most diligent and well-aware pilots can get into fatal trouble. It made me think about quitting, but eventually I put it into perspective and accepted the risk for something that brings me joy like nothing else.
Wish you all the best in your decision process and for any future risks you take.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
Thanks.
jlp_utah@reddit
Did you see that clip of the paraglider who had their canopy trashed by a GA plane? I'm fairly certain the pilot never saw the paraglider. Looking the wrong way, head down in the cockpit for a minute or two, depending too much on ADS-B in, who knows. If that paraglider hadn't had an emergency chute, she would have been dead. Flying in general is a high risk activity. You can minimize that risk to a certain extent, but you can't make it zero.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you don't feel uncomfortable doing, though. I understand where you're coming from. Only you can make the decision on what level of risk is acceptable.
live_drifter@reddit
By that logic no flying would ever exist
davenuk@reddit
Let's not mention skydiving
NealMustard@reddit
The point that should be emphasized is that pilots are in the business of risk management, not risk elimination. Flying is an acceptable risk, and some flights come with additional risks.
Our job is to make sure that the total risk of a flight is reasonable and worth taking on.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
I have flown extensively out of the airport you’re referring to, including recently. It just sucks. I’ve watched that orange pawnee taxi past or takeoff a thousand times, or gone past it while it’s refueling.. idk why I think of that, but I do. Rest in Peace Jim.
Greenie302DS@reddit
First, GA is inherently risky which is why ADM and risk mitigation is so important.
Now, some perspective. I’ve worked in emergency and acute care medicine for over 20 years. I’ve seen or pronounced at least 500 people dead. Here are some highlights:
A lot of traffic accidents where the dead person was not in a vehicle of someone driving impaired. Including a car flying off of an off ramp onto a car on the freeway. Tree falling on a car in a storm. 40 year old jogging. 50 year old on a treadmill. Dude riding a bike hit by a car. Many just bad luck but young (ruptured aneurysm in the brain or aorta). Choked on a steak. Seizure while swimming and drowned. Many pedestrians hit by cars. Cancer that the person didn’t know they have. Cancer at a young age that wasn’t treatable. Sepsis from infections. Covid. More Covid. Heart attack, including in people in their 40’s who were not fat but had bad genes. Stray bullet. Home invasion. Heart arrhythmia that never had any warning signs. And a LOT more.
This is all to say, your tomorrow is not guaranteed. Enjoy your life, do fun things, don’t make bad decisions about flying. Fly good, don’t suck. Now I’m off to fly in my efforts toward my instrument rating!
Zathral@reddit
Training, training and more training. I've been flying gliders for five years now. Perhaps not as long as a lot of sailplane pilots out there.... Anyway, it's my understanding that tug upsets were once, long before I started, much more common than they are now, and that most of that is down to a lot of hard work in increasing awareness and training for avoiding tug upsets. Aerotow launching demands absolute concentration, but there is a lot going on from the glider end - not only maintaining position behind the tug but keeping track of landing options from a rope break/wave off. I am a firm believer in hand on the release until you use it! I suspect part of the problem with remaining tug uppet accidents could bad habits of not having a hand on the release low down, or pilots trying to address other distractions such as an air vent left open. My club is predominantly winch, but we are getting a new tug next month with the intention of increasing the amount of aerotowing we do. I'm looking forward to it! It will require careful management to be safe especially at first. But I'm confident we'll do well with the new, more capable, tug.
sailing_in_the_sky@reddit
We always taught hand NEXT to the release, not on it. A strong bump might cause you to release at a time not of your choosing. However, if your club and training regime have taught you to keep your hand on the release, it's better than having your hand nowhere near it at critical phases of flight.
Kiting happens very fast so you need to be able to release the second it starts. Unfortunately, kiting can happen because something else has gone wrong like a canopy blowing open or a disconnected control (i.e. because they forgot to do, or did incorrectly, a positive control check after assembly and before launch). I've seen a kite due to a canopy blowing open. Thankfully the glider was released in time and everyone was ok. I've also seen people forget to connect controls (aileron in this case). Both instances were avoidable, yet people still make mistakes and things go south.
Zathral@reddit
I've heard both opinions on whether to have hands on or near the release. Shortly before I started flying, my club had a wing drop into cartwheel accident on a winch launch. The pilot was thankfully not seriously hurt, but it could easily have turned out differently. I've not read any report on that particular incident but from what discussion I've had I believe a contributing factor was hand near and not on the release. We are taught hand on the release all the way up the winch and certainly near the ground on aerotow, with a strong preference to keep it on all the way up.
I've experienced an accidental release a couple of times on the ground while trying to launch an Astir. It had a very short cable with almost no slack. I prefer a slightly longer release cable i can securely hold with slight slack to avoid accidental releases. But even if its a shorter release cable, I would prefer to have to deal with a launch failure than have a longer reaction time needing to release whether on winch or aerotow.
LateralThinkerer@reddit
Stupid question: Isn't there a release on the tow-plane end of things?
mcweaselcop@reddit
Yes there is. Depending on what type and how it's mounted might make it nearly, if not totally, impossible to release when a glider starts kiting. Also if this occurs close to the ground, you might not have the reaction time to reach down and grab the release handle
kkcfi@reddit
Take your time to process what happened. Breathe. You can decide later. What you choose to do is a personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer.
Also, the world we live in is one where everyone likes telling everyone else what their opinion is and why the others should like, up or otherwise validate their thoughts. It becomes hard to think when you're processing something like what you shared. Take care.
flannelWX@reddit
Link to FAA notice of the incident: https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:95:::NO::P95_EVENT_LCL_DATE,P95_LOC_CITY_NAME,P95_REGIST_NBR:26-MAY-26,SARATOGA%20SPRINGS,N8656L
And a local news article for those interested: https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/ntsb-investigates-single-engine-plane-crash-22278503.php
I don't have an answer for you OP, but I understand feeling shook up over this. I live less than a mile from Saratoga County Airport and have flown in those gliders. I listen to the tow planes over my house all day long when the weather is nice.
FWIW, I haven't seen anything indicating why the glider pitched up when it did, so I'm hesitant to assume it was the glider pilot's inattention. That could still cause an incident like this, but it may not have been the cause here.
As others have said, give it some time and know you don't have to make any decisions right now, and you can always change your mind later.
FeatherMeLightly@reddit
We fly knowing the risk, if your one of the few that think it can't happen to you, you should find a different career.
notsurwhybutimhere@reddit
You’re shaken and that’s fine and appropriate. I hear you.
You don’t have to decide right now to do it more or never again. Take the time to let emotions settle and when you are ready, make your choice. And if you want to choose differently later, do that. There is no shame in any choice you make in reaction to this, but time will help you ensure you don’t regret them.
I’m sorry you are having to work through all this.
Airrmontis@reddit
Do I detect emotional intelligence? I thought that went extinct.
theonlyski@reddit
This exactly. The sky isn't going anywhere, take the time you need OP and reevaluate.
Unfortunately I've lost more skydiving friends than I care to admit, sometimes you need a break to clear your mind. The sky will be there.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
I've read your comment some ten times, too. Thanks.
davidswelt@reddit
Just landed 5B2 yesterday and heard about just such an accident on my Uber ride into town. Like with any flight, some phases are critical, but once you've gained altitude, you can release the glider in time.
There are many situations when you have to play as a team, and where your life depends on another person doing the right thing. This is no different.
live_drifter@reddit
Buy a nomex flight suit, gloves, shoes and a helmet, they aren’t expensive but will definitely be worth the investment. The weekend warriors might chuckle at you but who cares what they think.
MyPilotInterview@reddit
Do you know if this was a CG hook? That club had an accident in 2018 and a CG hook was noted in the NTSB report? Would just towing from a nose hook be safer, and mitigate the risk where you would be comfortable with it?
Occams_ElectricRazor@reddit
So stop?
helno@reddit
I am learning to fly tow and have flying gliders is a big part of my life.
Every accident makes me think about what could have been done to prevent it.
I also ride motorcycles and have to have similar thoughts every time I hear about a fatal accident. The risk is about the same every the same as flying my GA aircraft.
At the end of the day I have to live and do the things that make my life worth living and they all involve risks.
ltcterry@reddit
Do you consume alcohol? Drive cars? Cross train tracks? These can kill you. Others doing these can kill you.
Getting out of position has a wide range. You can argue the glider pilot is virtually never in position. Yes the vast majority of tows are safe.
Ultimately this is up to you. But if this concerns you enough to stop then CFIT, engines failures, and midair collisions will still exist and you should stop flying.
Break.
A couple years ago I saw a video of a kiting on takeoff accident. It was eye opening how incredibly fast it happened. I almost wrote “deteriorated,” but that word feels slower than this happened.
I do understand you’re worried. Work to mitigate the risk through training and pre takeoff briefings. We include this topic at my club.
Good luck and fly safely!
Rickenbacker69@reddit
This is why none of my students go off on their own until it's second nature to hold the glider at 6ft while the tow plane gathers speed. And I tell them that if they ever lose the tow plane below the nose, disconnect.
Most of us who fly know one or two people who died doing it. At the end of the day, you're the only one who can decide whether it's worth the risk.
Kemerd@reddit
Honestly, you can’t. It’s partially why I struggle whether or not I’d like to be a CFI. It is dangerous. Shit man, life is too short to be second guessing. Ain’t not reason you can’t quit it tomorrow and never do it again, nor is there any reason you couldn’t pick it up again in a year if you change your mind. Life isn’t absolutes, but whatever you choose, choose it and don’t sit there griping about it! Quit doing it because it’s dangerous, or accept the risk and do it. Either way commit!
1skyking@reddit
My condolences on the loss of someone close. I was the other kind of tow pilot and the banners did not try to kill me, that was all on me.
I don't know the right answer for you. If you do GA long enough, you will lose somebody.
Independent-Reveal86@reddit
I don't know the answer. We spend a lot of our lives trusting someone else's sense of self preservation. Every time we drive we pass within metres of cars going the opposite direction with a relative closing speed of over 200 kph. I can't help you get comfortable with it, you either accept the risk, or not.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
I dont think the car analogy fits with what I perceive, for the reasons I posed in another response within this reddit post, about power vs towed flight.
I think that "accept the risk or not" does not acknowledge options for mitigating any particular risk (from which I shall not attempt to chase the car analogy), nor does it proffer any way to process some such scenario as I am (vaguely) trying to process through a reddit post.
Mach_v_manchild@reddit
Do you want comfort, realistic responses or are you venting because you lost someone? This is the perfect analogy for the situation. If you're a pilot and worry that every other pilot is actively trying to kill you, you shouldn't fly. The same way if you think every other driver is trying to kill you, you shouldn't drive. I understand that your upset about thw situation, and losing a friend, and I'm really sorry for that.
As for mitigating risk, often the best way we can do that is to learn from others mistakes unfortunately.
I really hope you're doing ok.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
I am fine to fly; I am now hesitant to tow.
I was not close to the deceased. But he is a part of the group I've hung my hat at, and we coincidentally share a last name, and his role at the time of the accident is the role I most often fulfill at the club.
"Do I want comfort, realistic responses, or just venting" -- yes (though I don't know what comfort vs realism meand to you). I think, in looking over my responses, it might be like:
I now feel scared to tow, and I dont want to be. Statistically, I am more likely to be fine while towing than not (I have no accidents, yet); but if tomorrow is my short straw day, is there a way to actually mitigate tomorrow's scenario so I am, at worst, inconveniencing rather than shortchanging my wife and my family because of it?
How do others make sense or process that someone they know died while flying due to a short straw or something like that?
This is a thing that happened. It sucks.
Mach_v_manchild@reddit
I'm so sorry dude. The way you responded resonated with me. And I can't say I know exactly what you're going through, but I have been there, thinking the same way. And I'm not trying to take away from what you're going through, but I would like to share some thoughts, I hope that's ok. It isn't about drawing the short straw. That's a textbook example of resignation. It isn't a game of chance. Its about mitigating risk. Look up the Swiss cheese method. There isn't a single mistake that leads to an accident. Its a series of them, mostly (bad) choices. It isn't coincidence.
But to respond: 1: if you don't feel safe doing something (whether in a plane, or just in general) don't do it. I know for a lot of pilots, this seems like it isn't an option. But if you don't feel safe towing, then don't. I've never been a tow pilot, but trust seems really important. It has its risks as all flying does, but for a long time, you're probably not going to trust who you're towing, and if you're hesitant or stressed about it, you're not going to be on your game, which is not safe. 2: we all process death differently. It depends on the person. I was an EMT and other things in my past life, so handling, seeing, being close to death is not something I should be giving pointers to others on. But I am married and if your marriage is anything like mine, let your wife help you. When I was instructing, there was a pretty brutal fatal crash at my airport, 3 people died, and my wife was a mess, thinking it was going to happen to me. But surprisingly, after sitting down with her and talking about what went wrong, and the bad choices that the pilot made (holes in the Swiss cheese) and explaining my thought process, we both felt a lot better. (I can give more details if you want) 3: yeah. It happens, and it and it fucking sucks. I don't really have any advice for this one.
Honestly, I hope you find peace in this situation, and that you're doing well.
Independent-Reveal86@reddit
The car analogy asserts that any oncoming vehicle can decide to drive in to you, head on, and there’s not a thing you can do about it.
I get what your concern is, I have the same issue with road cycling. I prefer mountain biking to road cycling because if I hurt myself on a mountain bike it is almost certainly my own fault and therefore under my control. When I’m road cycling I’m at the mercy of any number of drivers who may be distracted, tired, drugged, etc.
I think you just need to assess the likelihood of something going wrong that’s out of your control and consider if you’re comfortable with the odds or not.
As far as I am aware, fatalities for tow pilots is rare, but I’m not in that part of the industry so maybe it’s worse than I think. You have a rope disconnect don’t you?
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the cycling analogy. I feel more understood with that, and perhaps more able to understand your words.
The rope release has some gotchas that make it not as straightforward as it might seem from afar.
Independent-Reveal86@reddit
Do you have some control over who/where/when you tow? Can you make sure you are comfortable with the level of training and oversight at the club? Have you done some gliding yourself? That might make you feel better (or worse) about it.
I get the family thing, our acceptance of risk changes as our life circumstances change.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
Another conversation, today, suggested identifying who I am comfortable towing vs who I am not comfortable towing.
These are good things to ponder.
Thanks.
ItsKindaTricky@reddit
You can die on toilet by a turd induced brain aneurysm. Straining during difficult bowel movements and holding your breath causes a spike in blood pressure followed by a sudden drop, which can trigger cardiac arrest in vulnerable individuals. Pressure on the colon can trigger the vagus nerve, which slows down the heart and lowers blood pressure so drastically that a person can faint.
Don't dwell on it, live fast, die young, bones heal and chick's dig scars. Point is...death happens... to all of us.
ge0kon@reddit
I'm very sorry about the loss of life. Not sure if you knew the person but either way I know it's no less tragic and also hits home when it's related to something you do yourself. I will say I am not a pilot but follow this sub because I would like to pursue aviation and I enjoy reading about questions, answers, and perspectives. With that being said I know I don't have much to offer in the way of suggestions but sometimes an outsider's perspective does add a little something. You mentioned that certain words about risk seem like a cop out at the moment and that does seem understandable. But it seems you also acknowledge some ways that you can mitigate your risk via different safety equipment but don't feel it's worth the price? I do mean this very respectfully but that seems almost like a cop out in itself. Again I'm an outsider and I could be off base, but it seems like if you love doing something but are aware of and worried about the dangers then going all in on the components that will increase your chances of making it home at the end of the day are well worth it.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
The price is not strictly for me to pay. If I purchased a pawnee or whatever, I would make it how I want. In a club setting, I've been using the provided equipment. Changing things will include needing to convince people to spend not-just-my-money. And if I am the only tow pilot that wants these things and the rest don't care, then it isn't going to happen.
I also don't know if nomex, helmets, and the like will actually reduce certain risks or if they will only appear to.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cFbF4bfU_sA
thanks for giving me a reason to dig up and rewatch an old paul bertorelli video on helmets! I remember being pretty convinced back in the day. this would probably be a personal investment, but definitely seems like a good one to me, especially if there’s exposed crossbars in whatever you tow in
fillikirch@reddit
Had a similar situation in spring last year (glider pitching up close to the ground, because he forgot to lock the airbrakes and they came out and he ripped around the stick when trying to store them at low altitude). Cut the rope once i saw him climb up above my mirror and feeling the airplanes tail rise. You can train and prepare for these kind of accidents (my step father was my flight instructor when getting the tow rating and he drilled it into my head, to be aware of this at low altitude and be ready to disconnect if the glider does stupid things).
I do it because i really enjoy it and i get to build time but more importantly experience for free. I dont have a family yet though and if i get one, i will 100 % quit flying atleast as long as my children are small. Ain't worth it.
astral__monk@reddit
I'm sorry for your loss friend. It never gets easier.
I started into aviation a ways back and over many years I'd inevitably get the same piece of words from mentors or people I looked up to:
"Sooner or later, you're going to lose a friend. It's part of what we do."
Now, collectively we've made aviation safer than it has ever been before. But the unforgiving reality of aviation is that we must continuously work hard every day to keep it that way.
But the odds are against us. Some things we just truly don't control ourselves. It's an unforgiving environment that we were never naturally meant to be in.
So every pilot has to decide if it's worth it to them to keep flying with the risk, no matter how low that risk it may be, that this next flight is your last.
And there's no right or wrong answer.
Hell your answer may change, once, twice, a dozen times over your life. And that's okay. But it's your choice and it's how much value flying brings to your time on this earth and is it worth the risk today to keep doing it or if it's time to give it up.
In the meantime we just keep doing what we've always done since the very first flights. We learn, we share, we stay humble, we teach each other, and we look out for one another.
Blue skies, friend.
Old_Winterton@reddit (OP)
I've read your comment some ten times, now. Thanks.
fukingstupidusername@reddit
I flew gliders in high school. There were a lot of pucker factor moments as a young glider pilot getting towed by the clubs 182 and Pawnee. I can recall several occasions where the wind would blow me off to the side of the runway after I got in the air and I’d see the Pawnee pilot fighting for his life with the rudder to stay on the runway. Other times I’d balloon up and pull the Pawnee’s tail really high as he was gaining speed to lift off. I remember in the air being towed and hitting bumps so bad the tow plane would disappear below me, when I’d catch sight of him again I was nearly on top of him. The worst was when I was heading back towards the airport and I hear on the radio “don’t you see the glider in front of you!”… I scanned the horizon and at the last second see our 182 with a glider in tow right in front of me breaking hard right. I broke right and could feel the 182’s exhaust as he passed beside me. This was all quite exciting for a 17 year old.
Moral of the story, none of this seemed to phase our tow pilots. They were a mix of 30 something guys and 80 year old retired airline pilots. The tow pilot that almost mowed me down was a regional FO. One of them was an f14 pilot and every time a glider pulled the tow release he’d break hard left and roll the Pawnee inverted as he dove away. A couple years later some AD’s came out for pawnee’s and our had major structural issues… I wonder how he felt about that.
Thats_my_cornbread@reddit
Do you enjoy it? It becomes a calculated risk, like many things in life.
120SR@reddit
I’ve got over 2000 hours flying skydivers and kept doing it until I got a job flying a jet, relenting to buying my own type rating and ATP certificate until I did so.
I understand the struggle, you have to separate the two sides. What you can control (which people will push back on and standing your ground is a highly valuable lesson to learn) and the acceptance of your taking risk, it is what it is
draconis183@reddit
I'm sorry about your friend.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I've been towing gliders for a bit. It was all fine in my head until recently.
Recently, a tow pilot died. Kited, crashed, caught fire, it burned, and he got burned, and died that night.
How do you justify pulling people up in the air to fart around on the weekend in gliders when their inattention can cause my death?
I guess I'm hoping for words besides "we all have to choose the risk", which feels like a cop out, at the moment.
I thought about nomex and helmets and chest-located rope-releases and tost hooks and nose hooks. But those all seem pretty pricey for something I don't strictly have to do.
But I know that sailplanes aren't a thing unless they can get up. And I guess winches aren't some saintly other option. I don't think I can justify it, when I've got my family and this doesn't pay the bills and people do get out of position.
I dunno. Just looking for anecdotes or thoughts. I would like to continue, but the thought of towing currently seems to make even less sense than the act of owning a plane.
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