Why I don't expect decarbonization of society is going to happen[in-depth]
Posted by mushroomsarefriends@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 17 comments
Note, I'm not arguing that we can't reduce carbon emissions. What I'm arguing is that we'll never succeed at altogether ending anthropogenic emissions. The easy part is decarbonizing the electric grid. In places like the Netherlands this will be hard to achieve with wind and energy alone, but decarbonizing the electric grid is just a fraction of what we have to achieve.
Electricity is responsible for about 40% of anthropogenic global CO2 emissions. Let's just agree that we somehow decarbonize the electric grid altogether, overnight. 40% of our carbon emissions, gone. In the real world solar has a carbon footprint of about 10% of that of natural gas and that's without counting emissions involved in storing the electricity. In the real world the electricity production will also have to be dramatically increased if we want people to have the electric heating/cooling and transportation that we're now planning, but let's handwave that away too.
But now let us take a look at some of the other sources of anthropogenic CO2 emissions, for which we don't have good solutions. Underground coal fires, some of them that have been burning for centuries, are responsible for 3% of our emissions. Good luck extinguishing them all.
Climate change has already resulted in an increase in forest fires. That's estimated at 3.4 gigaton of carbon, compared to total human emissions of 37.8 gigaton total of human carbon emissions. Good luck getting rid of forest fires altogether. That's another equivalent to 9% of our carbon emissions.
Humans like to fly around the world. There's no sign of this stopping anytime soon. Electricity and hydrogen just don't have the energy density you need for flight. You need petrochemicals. They want to use biofuels in theory, but the cost and the land use involved are enormous. This is another 2.5% of current carbon emissions you're looking at. Every scenario has air travel at least doubling between now and 2050 by the way. Include the non-CO2 effect of air travel and you're looking at 4% of overall global warming right now.
Our soils are eroding due to our unsustainable use, which means carbon is being released from the soils. This is estimated at 1 gigaton of carbon per year. That's another 2.5% of our carbon emissions.
No industrial scale alternatives currently exist for the Haber-Bosch process of fixating nitrogen from the air, for the production of fertilizer. That's about 1% of all carbon emissions. Green steel production doesn't seem to be a success, because most iron ore grades are now too low for the technology. That's estimated at 8% of carbon emissions.
Then there is tropical deforestation, which is now an effective inevitability in places like Congo due to the committed population growth (the DRC has a fertility rate of 6). This is estimated at 6.5% of global anthropogenic carbon emissions. Theoretically a lot of this deforestation could be eliminated if people stopped eating beef and palm oil, but I don't see any signs of that happening.
Then there's plastic. Theoretically we can produce plastic with something other than fossil fuels, in theory we can produce them from food crops, but that just has the effect of worsening our other problems. I see no realistic trajectory where we stop using plastics made from fossil fuel anytime soon. That's around 3% of our carbon emissions. The expectation is that plastics production will double between 2020 and 2050.
So if you consider it reasonable that we're not all going to stop flying, that we won't extinguish all of the world's coal fires, that we won't have a global vegan revolution, that we will continue to produce fertilizer and steel and will continue to produce plastic, then you're looking at 33.5% of anthropogenic carbon emissions that will continue. Some of those, like plastics and air travel, are more likely to continue increasing than decreasing for the foreseeable future.
There's another 0.6 gigaton of carbon annually released from the melting permafrost right now, that's another 0.5% of our carbon emissions we can't easily solve. That leaves you at 34% of our emissions.
There's another 5% of global emissions you can add to this, if you can agree with me that we're not going to have zero carbon heavy duty trucks at any meaningful scale. Short distances in Europe? Sure, we can have electric trucks, if the electric grid can handle the huge temporary spike in demand whenever these cars charge. What happens to the old trucks is that they'll be exported to Africa and burn carbon there.
We have somewhat realistic decarbonization plans, for the electricity grid, for the heating of buildings and for the transportation of people on the road over relatively short distances in densely populated parts of the world. Whether we can implement those solutions within any meaningful timeframe on a global scale is another question.
But I would argue that for 39% of carbon emissions, we just don't have meaningful solutions. Biofuels that consume 30% of global available biomass by 2050 just for air travel are not realistic solutions. We'll have enough trouble making sure everyone has to eat by then.
We've only looked at carbon emissions here. That's estimated at 72% of the greenhouse effect. It's generally thought that the non-carbon emissions are even harder to phase out. It should be clear from these numbers that we don't have any technologies that make net zero by 2050 realistic to achieve.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
Excellent post. It's hard for people to admit that what we are doing now is not "sustainable" -- i.e., cannot be sustained over time. We simply will not be able to live like we do now. Whose lifetime will changes arrive in? I think anyone under 35 is in for massive decline in lifestyel but of course I don't know. I do know that many scientists say their predictions were too conservative -- that loss of biodiversity, pollution, etc. etc. are increasing faster that they expected.
I fully agree about heavy duty trucks - people think electricity is going to work but they underestimate how incredibly heavy vehicles have gotten and how much of a load they carry.
I am seriously worried about how to feed eight billion without massive amounts of fertilizer. Soil is degrading, water gets scarcer everyday, the population is still growing, though more slowly.
ruaraid@reddit
That's the thing: we won't. Some prosperous regions (Europe, North America, China, etc.) will be relatively safe and will see inflation and scarcity. In poorer regions like Africa or India there will be famines, epidemics, civil unrest and eventually massive mortality rates due to conflicts, malnutrition and dehydration.
We will see enormous migratory flows that will be fiercely faced with violence, because there's no way China accepts millions of Indian refugees and it's impossible to think about Europe receiving any more Subsaharan migrants. But this millions and millions of people will do anything to survive, so civil unrest might turn into war for resources and civil wars.
alphaxion@reddit
I think the US will be hit harder than people expect.
Southern and South-west coast states will be at the brunt of it, Sea level rises and hurricanes will render places like Florida and Louisiana impossible to insure so jobs are going to leave, as well as current major cities being inundated by the sea. It might revert back to being inhabited largely by people living off of the land in a nomadic style.
South-western states like California, Nevada, and New Mexico are going to have a serious freshwater crisis, wild fires choking people out, and summer temps that are just outright lethal.
I think the US population is going to retreat back to the midwest and northern states, again with only nomads and frontier people left in the states that have been largely vacated. It's going to strain relationships between states and the relationship between Canada and the US is going to get worse as squabbles over the water in the Great Lakes area intensifies.
CheerleaderOnDrugs@reddit
Terrifying, no? Even if it doesn't get as bad as expected as quickly, this toboggan ride to hell is sealed in, and it is nothing short of catastrophe.
Thank you for the in-depth write up, I am not naturally a numbers guy, so I appreciate the data, and the responses in this thread.
Dangerous_Soil4421@reddit
Concerning the Haber Bosh process: We could be doing agroforestry with similar yields (source https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311886.2025.2516833#abstract ).
BTRCguy@reddit
The constant is that people are going to continue to be people. At some point the people of Easter Island surely thought "hey, we're running out of the trees we need in order to make our fishing boats". And then they continued to completely deforest the island...
The only real solution is fewer people.
And people being people, they will not cooperate with that either. Hence why someplace like r/collapse has 136,000 visits per week. Humanity is the train wreck you just cannot stop watching.
From a seat on the train.
BattleGrown@reddit
You must be in the know. I'm also involved with decarbonization at the highest level (UN). I won't name my field and specific organs that I work at, because honestly the community is small and I'd be doxxed in an instant. But yeah you are right. You must see the struggle against the fossil-aligned member states and industry association NGOs at the UN. They will never give it up. At the global level, all parties must agree to take policy action. This never happens. And these actors will never agree to replace fossil fuels. Their argument is technology neutrality; any policy instrument must be goal-based and not prescribe solutions. If the goal is reducing GHGs, their solution is carbon capture and storage/sequestration. We all know this will never work, but we are stuck at this argument, unless geopolitical pressure makes member states cooperate. We all know where the geopolitics is headed. So in short, we failed the mission.
SandlerCel@reddit
Fantastic post. This why I'd rather my country not focus on net zero but electrification of the grid (for sustainability reasons) and 'anti-warming' infrastructure - sea walls, shade, air-con, national food production.
wanton_wonton_@reddit
This is not news. This was never going to happen before collapse. Ironically, the only way society will ever decarbonise is via colapse. Up to eight tipping points could be reached below 2C of warming -report
We have locked in hell on Earth. End of.
Effective_Bug_176@reddit
Thank you for these clear lists and calculations, though in my opinion they need to go further so that we can realistically assess the situation. The question arises: How much potential do we realistically have for removing greenhouse gases from the atmosphere?
Massive reforestation and other possibilities involving biodiverse plants and plankton, the restoration of wetlands, enabling the reversal of erosion effects so that the earth can absorb CO2 again, and similar measures to increase natural CO2 sequestration
How much energy (and other resources) would be required to sequester the remaining greenhouse gases through artificial measures? (To my knowledge, there is a minimum amount of energy required to filter CO2 from the air.)
It would be very interesting to have some estimates regarding our potential and the options available to us. Only by combining these assessments with your figures can we get a clearer picture of whether there is still any hope.
Effective_Bug_176@reddit
Of course, all of this is based on the premise that social trends undergo a radical reversal. We remove our leaders from their positions of power, the world comes together more closely, and we thus at least drastically reduce competition between states, and we end capitalism and pursue a global economic system whose goal is to satisfy people’s basic needs while otherwise focusing much more on using humanity’s productive forces to stabilize the climate and other planetary boundaries.
If we let the world continue to succumb to competition between nations and capitalism, we’re obviously screwed, but I believe it’s possible to overcome this, and I want to know what the possibilities would be for a humanity set free.
As for the time it would have at its disposal, let’s generously assume that geoengineering could buy us a few more decades—or even longer—during which we’d have the opportunity to tackle the challenge of achieving net zero and then removing CO2.
I know it sounds unlikely, but there is no determinism preventing such a scenario. So as long as there is still hope that humanity possesses the physical means to avoid a total collapse, I consider this goal worth pursuing.
Nom-De-Gruyere@reddit
Removing CO2 is going to be extremely hard, simply because it's the wrong way up the energy gradient so with ever more demand for energy it gets more expensive to spend energy on decarbonisation. Probably the best option will be pyrolisis of biomass, to produce hydrogen and carbon char, as a means of storing solar energy. Reusing the hydrogen when there's no renewable energy pays for the process and the carbon can be buried.
Another geoengineering option that is rarely discussed is radiant cooling. There is a particular range of infra red frequencies, called the atmospheric window range, which pass straight through clouds and the atmosphere into space. There are existing materials which can absorb heat of all wavelengths and then re-radiate that heat only within the range that is radiated to space. These materials feel cool and actively remove heat from the earth. I once did a very basic calculation based on existing materials to see how much would be required to entirely cancel the extra warming compared to 1900. Came out at roughly the area of Australia. So huge, but not impossible, and it could be distributed all over the world. It's potentially better than blocking the sun in orbit or upper atmospher because it's effects are local and at ground level. So crops can be unafected, cooling is located where needed (around cities) and it can be easily added or removed to adjust.
Physical_Ad5702@reddit
I have to agree with most of your analysis. The only other thing to mention is that you have nation-states such as the US and GCC countries that will produce every last molecule of hydrocarbons (their words, not mine) they can, no matter what the rest of the world is trying to achieve as far as an "energy transition" goes.
I see some of the photos of the endless solar arrays that are being / have been build in China and the only thing I can think of is all of the fossil fuels it took to mine, transport, fabricate, assemble, clear the land; and then it all needs to be replaced in 20 or 30 years time. It's the same story for wind turbines.
Then there is the question of what are we using that "renewable energy" (it's not) for? It sure as hell isn't being utilized to restore damaged ecosystems or to address the 6th Mass Extinction. It's all intended for immediate human consumption / satisfaction.
Our priorities need to change if there is to be any meaningful reduction in emissions and ecological harm. Humanity would need to appreciate the wonder of that natural world and come off the pedestal we have put ourselves on. Our technology is no doubt powerful, but to what end?
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
"I see some of the photos of the endless solar arrays that are being / have been build in China and the only thing I can think of is all of the fossil fuels it took to mine, transport, fabricate, assemble, clear the land; and then it all needs to be replaced in 20 or 30 years time. It's the same story for wind turbines."
I literally see these things in my mind's eye. In my view, economic activity has to massively decrease. We have to prioritize only what is essential. I don't see much chance of that happening. But maybe post-collapse, smaller, more local societies will arise that will prioritize nature and conserving resources, if only because survival depends on it.
Armouredmonk989@reddit
To decarbonize you have to dismantle industrial civilization yeah right we got the pedal to the floor till this thing collapses and we all die.
bbccaadd@reddit
Considering the current situation, this is far from realistic. It's unthinkable that jet fuel supply would even stabilize, let alone increase.
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