Israel’s defence minister says large-scale Palestinian migration from Gaza will go ahead • Human rights groups and lawyers say policy amounts to ethnic cleansing
Posted by Naurgul@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 146 comments
Israel’s defence minister has said he is committed to the ethnic cleansing of Gaza through large-scale migration of Palestinians as part of Israel’s long-term plans for the territory.
Israel Katz said the government would implement a plan for large numbers of Palestinians to leave Gaza “at the right time and in the right manner”, in a statement on Wednesday marking the targeted killing of Mohammed Odeh, Hamas’s most recent military commander.
Pushing for mass departures violates Donald Trump’s ceasefire plan for Gaza, which Israel signed last year. The second point of the plan states: “Gaza will be redeveloped for the benefit of the people of Gaza, who have suffered more than enough.”
Israel’s government has promoted the prospect of Gaza without Palestinians since Trump suggested early last year that hundreds of thousands of people should leave to “clean out” the strip for reconstruction.
Last year Israel set up a bureau for “voluntary emigration” and eased travel restrictions for Palestinians who wanted to make a one-way journey out of the strip.
The forced transfer of civilian populations is a war crime and a crime against humanity. Israeli officials, including Katz, use the term “voluntary migration” to describe their plans for large numbers of Palestinians to leave Gaza.
Israel-based human rights organisations and lawyers have warned that the conditions Israel has imposed on Gaza mean no departure can be considered voluntary and the policy constitutes planning for ethnic cleansing.
The Association for Civil Rights in Israel said last year: “Creating living conditions that do not allow for survival, freedom and dignity, and subjecting civilians to them until they say they want to leave is not a plan for ‘encouraging voluntary emigration’ but a plan for forced evacuation and expulsion.”
gudfrid@reddit
ethnic cleansing, but it's fine because they are the ones doing it. the west (except ireland, bless them) will give them a huge applause since might makes right.
after all, that's how usa, canada and australia was founded.
ethnic cleansing is ok if white people are the ones doing it. as seen by soon to be posted apologia coming from deplorable kkkunts making their genocidal ancestors proud here on this subreddit.
nothing has changed since the genocide of native americans. I don't know if god exists, but if he does, i hope he damn these kkkunts. there has to be some justice in this world.
if there is no justice in this world, then all of us need nukes. and they should all be pointed in one direction. the direction of genocidal colonial fucks and their ilk.
Monterenbas@reddit
Wasn’t that the take of litteraly every non western countries, after Russia invaded Ukraine? Do they believe the opposite now?
REKTGET3162@reddit
No thats something you made up.
Monterenbas@reddit
Was it? I believe it was India prime minister who said « the problem of Europe are not the problem of the world »
I don’t remember anyone of them sanctioning Russia, in fact most of them jump on the opportunity to help Putin financialy and buy cheap russian oil at a discount.
Wich fair enough, if they believe that agressor countries shouldn’t be sanctioned, but i guess that that’s also apply to Israel.
REKTGET3162@reddit
Oh yeah I remember rest of the came together and gave a standing ovation and applause to Putin. Oh wait, it was Canada to a Nazi, sorry confused there since you said something about applause. Anyway whats the issue with Europe's problem not being rest of the worlds problem? Rest of the world issues wasnt Europe's issues for years while they went on meddling with their best friend USA. It seems that you think Europe's issues concern everyone else but not vice versa. Well I for one dont believe that the Garden does not need help from jungle. I dont see the point of bringing Israel anyway, its not you sanctioned or will sanction Israel, even though you guys love to talk about human rights, genocide and such. Is that supposed to be some sort of threat? "Oh well then we wont sanction Israel." Dont worry I never had any doubt about that.
Monterenbas@reddit
So we’re moving the goal post now? Are you having a hard time staying on subject? I wonder why is that.
There’s indeed no issue in believing that mights makes right, and that countries should prioritize their national interest over morality or international laws, you just don’t get to wine, when the same logic is applied to Israel.
Any country that collaborate with Russia or Israel believes that might makes right, wich is pretty much the entire world, not a western specificity. Nice try tho.
REKTGET3162@reddit
You asked didnt the rest of the world applouse Russia and I said no you made that up. Then you moved the goalpost and asked other things and then I answered. Only one moving the post here is you. I would rather the international law applied to everybody fairly unlike you who wants that when its your ass on fire. And you say corroborate with Russia and Israel as if anybody has the same relation with Russia the same way the Europe and USA does with Israel lol. Nice try tho.
Monterenbas@reddit
Nobody applaudee Israel either, if you want to be pedantic about it.
REKTGET3162@reddit
Europe? Yeah sure not in a near time. But Netanyahu did get a standing ovation in USA July 24 2024.
Monterenbas@reddit
So that’s what constitute applause, so you don’t believe that Putin also get applauded everytime he visit a country?
REKTGET3162@reddit
Firstly is appluase and standing ovation same thing to you? In either case Israel got a lot more than Russia ever did and you know it. Secondly I would love to know which countries gave Putin a standing ovation for invading Ukraine, can you give me some links?
Monterenbas@reddit
Yeah, I’m sure that you’ve personaly analysed the applaud received by Putin and Netanyahu, maybe you also have the decibel comparison, to measure their respective popularity?
And, if they love Putin, that’s perfectly fine.
Lmao, no, Russia litteraly had thousands of foreign soldiers fighting and dying for them, Israel could only dream of having that.
Who said anything about « for invading Ukraine », they applaud him despite his invasion of Ukraine, because they in fact, believes that might makes right.
REKTGET3162@reddit
Nice way to dodge question. Of course applause by random people is totally same as getting a standing ovation by US congress which Netanyahu got despite genocide in Gaza. If you are wondering how many standing ovation Putin got, it is 1. He got it in Germany in 2001.
Israel gets free money and weapons by the West, why eould they eant soldier when they can level the entire Gaza with all free bomb you have given them? Oh but dont worry if it comes to it Im sure you guys would love to send soldiers too, if that is where the arbitrary line you have drawn is.
Monterenbas@reddit
And you believe that money and weapons are worth more than human life? Nevermind that Russia is also getting a shit ton of weapons its friends.
REKTGET3162@reddit
Oh wow thats a very cute way putting it lmao. Sure thats what I totally meant. I am sure you will give the same care about human life being priceless when Israel kill the next wave of people. And no Russia doesnt get the same amount let alone them being free lol.
loggy_sci@reddit
Edgelord TikTok tankie takes. This sub really is something else lol
helikophis@reddit
It's not even fair to discuss "since" the genocide of Native Americans - that genocide is still ongoing - the current USA regime's approach toward "Latin American immigrants" (that is, Native Americans) is the most recent phase.
boringhistoryfan@reddit
Latin America has had just as much migration from Europe as North America. You can't just conflate Latin American immigrants with native Americans anymore than you can conflate a white Americans or Canadian with indigenous or first Nations Americans.
HenryHamilhocker@reddit
"You can't just conflate Latin American immigrants with native Americans"
Yes you can, because the Latin American genome is substantially native american in origin. They are native americans.
helikophis@reddit
Perhaps, but North America had near-total extermination of natives (outside Mexico), and whites who mixed with natives were assigned "colored" status and excluded from the "European" population. The situation in Latin America was very different. This means that in anglophone North America, Native ancestry is vanishingly small, while in Latin America it runs from something like 30%-90%.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
just gonna respond with my other comment because yall are slow and mono lingual
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/0pxQa7i0HE
year_trader_99@reddit
If Hamas stays in power, what’s even the point of rebuilding Gaza at all, given that they are openly committed to the annihilation and destruction of Israel?
MaskedPapillon@reddit
Yeah, might as well kill every single Palestinian to avoid the superior technological group Hamas from destroying the tiny and defenseless Israel, right?/s
Wtf are you on about? Also, who has been sending money in suitcases to Hamas for years again? The Israeli government has been funding Hamas this entire time to prevent a two state solution.
Away_team42@reddit
I mean he is technically right. Palestinians need a regime change and to democratically elect a government that is not 100% hell bent on shooting itself in the foot and causing more harm than good.
MaskedPapillon@reddit
Like the Palestinian authority? Cause they would be an viable option, if the Israeli government didn't undermine them for literal years.
The plight of Gaza and the Palestinians was and still is manufactured by the Israeli government.
Monterenbas@reddit
No, not like the Palestinian authority, who’ve been delaying elections for decades now, because they know that Hamas would won, overwelmingly, any election organized in the West Bank.
MaskedPapillon@reddit
Wow, it's like the Palestinian authority lost of their power and influence just as Hamas grew more popular and powerful... It's almost like someone been tipping the scales away from the group that was seem as legitimate by the international community and towards the one that multiple nations deemed a terrorist organization.
I wonder who that finger belongs to...
Monterenbas@reddit
Sure, but have you consider that maybe, just maybe, the Palestinians might find the party who actualy resist against Israel, and fight to take their land back, more popular and attractive, than the corrupt PA who collaborate with Israel on a daily bases.
Why do you believe that the Palestinian people have no agency and are incapable of thinking for themselves?
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
That's exactly the problem. Israel has absolutely no interest in allowing any legitimate Palestinian government to operate. They want enough control to manage the Palestinians under occupation until they can manufacture international consent for ethnic cleansing and/or formal apartheid.
Smotrich literally laid that out in his Decisive Plan in 2017.
It's absurd to pretend that Palestinian's trouble with organizing is exclusively their own fault when every single activist has been detained, tortured, crippled or assassinated. Israel literally uses their military control to break up meeting of more than 3 people. The Israeli occupation takes as one of their primary military objective breaking the back of any Palestinian political organization regardless of its objectives.
Monterenbas@reddit
Why do you believe that Hamas is not legitimate?
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Legitimacy is a condition defined by recongition. A government can't function if they are unable to make deals or communicate on behalf of themselves.
Hamas is sanctioned beyond any capacity to function as a government. They are severely and violently restricted in their ability to collaborate with any ourside body, including the humanitarian organizations responsible for providing aid to Gaza. Israel and the US have absolutely unresrricted impuniy to assassinate any member of the group regardless or their position or mission, including people with an exclusively civilian role and diplomats during peace talks.
Hamas is never treated as a governing body in international politics. They are exclusively treated as a criminal organization with absolutely no right to be included in the future of the place they currently govern.
In most of the West it is effectively illegal to for journalists to even interview them or present them as anything other than an illegitimate criminal organization. In many countries, just providing neutral coverage or letting a representative or distributing literature speak can be considered providing material aid to terrorists.
Monterenbas@reddit
So according, if a government won fair popular election in his country, but is not recognized by the United State, then it’s illegitimate?
MaskedPapillon@reddit
I never claim that, only that Israel has created the perfect environment for Hamas to thrive in, as you yourself put it:
You clearly can connect the dots yourself, so what's the issue here?
Monterenbas@reddit
What’s the issue indeed? Palestinians can make their own choices, as grown up adult, without Israel being responsible for everything they do.
MaskedPapillon@reddit
It seems you can't see the world as more than black and white.
Palestinians are adults and can make their own decisions.
Israel has been pulling strings to make sure Hamas stays in power.
Both statements can be true.
Monterenbas@reddit
Hamas could never stay power, without the support of the Palestinian population, irrelevant of whatever string you believe Israel is pulling.
MaskedPapillon@reddit
But you are denying Israel's involvement in this whole thing. It's like saying all the military dictatorships in South America were stablished and continued because that's what the population wanted, while totally ignoring the role the US had on it.
Or that Russia propaganda had to effect on the American people when the first voted Trump into office. Did the American people had agency voting for the mad king? Sure, but Russia did put it's finger on the scale.
It's not a all or nothing situation. Again, Hamas was preferred compared to the Palestinian authority by the population, true. But it's also true that Israel helped as much as it could to weaken the Palestinian authority and strengthen Hamas.
One does not exclude the other.
Monterenbas@reddit
Poor comparison, those dictatorship were never elected.
The American are absolutely regarded for voting or gobbling up Russian propaganda, without any critical thinking. They have nobody to blame, but themselves for electing Trump.
Maybe, but ultimately, it’s still the Palestinian people who’ve made their choice.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
So Hamas then. So no need for a regime change, except for maybe in Israel, so that peace negotiations can actually go forward.
Monterenbas@reddit
Yes Hamas it is, but what space for negociation, do you believe do you believe, between the two side, when Hamas leaders have openly claim that they intent to commit more Oct 07 type of attacks in the future?
Seems like a struggle to the death, between the two side, is a much more likely outcome than a negociated settlement.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Why is it when Israel says stuff, people want context, or want to give them the benefit of the doubt in their interpretation. But refuse to do the same for Israel’s opponents?
Hamas saying they will repeat October 7th is no different than the US or Israel threatening further attacks against Iran to force Iran to accept their negotiation terms. Israel refuses to negotiate peace, and historically has only really negotiated after conflicts.
If Hamas just wanted to attack Israel again and again, why would they give them a heads up? This was about pressuring Israel to negotiate so that Hamas wouldn’t have to attack. I frankly just think that Hamas underestimated Israel’s willingness to commit genocide.
Monterenbas@reddit
If that’s makes you feel better, lets that the Israelis also want kill all Palestinians, the point about the « negociations » remain exactly the same.
Religious fanatics are not reputated for being perticularily rational.
Great negociation tactic lol, let’s see how that work out for them.
PooManGroup29@reddit
Hamas' attack exists to prevent rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia. It exists to block something that can help the Palestinians (a requirement of the US/Israel/Saudi trilateral talks) because there's no place for Hamas in any peaceful resolution. They've made it clear that they don't believe in it.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Yeah, because you wouldn’t want to democratically elect a government that immediately pursues peace after being elected.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/31/israel
year_trader_99@reddit
The Israeli government was allowing Qatari money into Gaza for “humanitarian purposes.” The idea was essentially to buy calm and steer Hamas away from its genocidal intentions, or at least that’s what the Israeli security establishment believed. They thought Hamas preferred stability and economic development. In the end, they were deceived, and here we are.
fifthflag@reddit
What do you mean the Israeli goverment was "allowing"? Since when does Israel say what is happening NOT in Israel, ah well since its an occupation, your hasbara slipped a little there buddy, be careful.
year_trader_99@reddit
Since a genocidal terrorist organization took over Gaza. Happy to help!
fifthflag@reddit
If by genocidal terrorist organization you mean the IDF, we are in total agreement.
year_trader_99@reddit
Calling the IDF a genocidal terrorist organization from Romania is wild your country's actual history with genocide is a Wikipedia tab away if you ever get curious.
fifthflag@reddit
Yeah I even have comments telling people about the huge and shameful role romania had in the Holocaust , particularly because I know history i can recognize genocide when I see it
year_trader_99@reddit
So you do recognize that October 7th was a pure genocidal act, right?
As for the war that came after: roughly 25K Hamas/Islamic Jihad operatives and 45K civilian casualties, a combatant-to-civilian ratio of about 1:2, or let's even be generous and say 1:3. If you call that a genocide, you're washing out every real genocide in history, including the one your own country committed against the Jews, where the ratio was 100% civilians, by design.
As a Romanian who "recognizes genocide," you of all people should know the difference. Otherwise the word means nothing.
MaskedPapillon@reddit
And which part of that plan to calm Hamas (an organization they themselves describe as a radical terrorist organization) with loads of cash involved undermining to hell and back the Palestinian authority, the other Palestinian group that was actually seen as legitimately internationally?
The only one who were deceived here, apperantly, was you. The Israeli government needs Hamas in power and relatively powerful to insure the continuation of a "state at war", so they can keep pushing their military targets like the greater Israel project and convince their population to continue their illegal occupation.
year_trader_99@reddit
I know that it sounds catchy, but there is no 'Greater Israel Project', but it does sound like a thing that can rally people around I'll give you that.
Israel withdraw 100% from Gaza, and the They were out of Lenanon for 18 years. They only expend in the West Bank, which is indeed controversial, but this is a by product of Palestinians exploding in busses and restaurants in the second intifiada and killing entirely the peace process.
Hamas won the elections in 2006 in Gaza and throwed Fatah supporters from the roofs litterally lol. Hamas would have rulled Gaza with or without Israeli government policy.
Bottom line, Israel now holding 60% of Gaza, and has the same buffer zone in Lebanon not because Israel, but because Hezbollah and Hamas are stupid.
MaskedPapillon@reddit
year_trader_99@reddit
Greater Israel is not part of Israeli policy, end of story. The West Bank is a separate issue that should be solved via negotiations and peace agreements. Palestinians could have already had self-determination in an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza, but in their national priorities, self-determination within those borders is a no-go. So until they figure out what the fuck is sufficient for them besides 'from the river to the sea,' the West Bank can only be negotiated within the context of ending hostilities.
As for the Palestinian Authority, well, fuck them and fuck Hamas. The second intifada was under the PA umbrella. Neither of them is really a partner for peace, as I mentioned above.
Look, I know you're all 'peace and love' and Jogo Bonito in Brazil, but in the Middle East, if you start a war and don't show signs of surrendering, the natural consequence is 'occupying' land. It’s not ideal, but it’s a legitimate real-world consequence for starting a war and losing it.
MaskedPapillon@reddit
It's clear I can't get you off Israeli money, but can you at the very least admit that Israel itself fosters hostilities with their Arab neighbors, which are the causes of the hostilities in the first place?
You're just excusing illegal occupation. What, you're gonna next tell me Crimea's annexation is fair due to the Nazi-adjacent movements in Ukraine?
Wow, are you being serious right now? I going for racists stereotypes now?
year_trader_99@reddit
No, I can't agree that Israel fosters hostilities with its Arab neighbors, because Jordan and Egypt have long-term peace agreements with Israel along with trade relations and other ties. Lebanon and Syria are a different story, for obvious reasons.
I'm not excusing illegal occupation, I'm saying that given the right circumstances, Israel will hand over the West Bank entirely to the Palestinians and remove all blockades from Gaza. I hope that happens. But given Hamas's popularity and their current perception of peace, there is no hope for the near future:
A tactical acceptance of a Palestinian state on '67 borders as a stage (2017 Hamas Document, Art. 20), while maintaining the long-term position that Palestine "from the river to the sea" is indivisible (Art. 2) and that armed resistance until "liberation" of all of it remains the strategic choice (Art. 25).
toms1313@reddit
The funniest part for me it's that they always argue about Israel not being an expansionist country and in the same sentence they talk about expanding the borders of influence and sovereignty
year_trader_99@reddit
If an enemy attacks you, and the enemy is being fucked hard in the process but still doesn't learn their lesson, then of course you will expand into their territory. I know it is hard from a leftist brain rot point of view, but this is how things work when you're losing a war you started.
RogerianBrowsing@reddit
Calling Hamas genocidal while ignoring the genocide being waged by Israel, the apartheid, the illegal occupation and blockade, the kidnapping and torture en masse including sexual violence, the terrorist pogroms as part of the ethnic cleansing for lebansraum, etc., most of which was being waged by Israel before Hamas ever fought back with a far better civilian to valid target ratio…
Hypocrisy is a core tenant of supremacism, fascism, and Nazism, as you’ve done a great job at highlighting.
year_trader_99@reddit
It's not a genocide. If you start a stupid war and don't have the brain cells to surrender, the consequences are on you. 70K dead, 25K are Hamas. gtfo with your Hamas propaganda.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Weird that they are committed to that but also repeatedly push for a two state solution, even offering to lay down their arms if a two state solution is implemented.
It’s almost like Hamas isn’t the real problem. It’s almost like the country with all the power, that refuses to negotiate peace because peace finalizes the Israeli border, is the problem.
year_trader_99@reddit
In Hamas's own framing it's a tactical acceptance of a Palestinian state on '67 borders as a stage (2017 Hamas Document, Art. 20), while maintaining the long-term position that Palestine "from the river to the sea" is indivisible (Art. 2) and that armed resistance until "liberation" of all of it remains the strategic choice (Art. 25).
In other words, you and Hamas can get the fuck out.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
First of all, any peace treaty that Hamas would sign would nullify any claims in the 2017 charter. And the claims Hamas makes are no different to what Israel claims. Both claim a right to all the land. But Hamas is clear that it is willing to compromise and accept a two state solution, and not as a stage, as you have suggested. Not sure why you think Hamas’ starting position should be immediate compromise. Hamas is including the rights of the refugees that were displaced. And while Israel will not accept such a condition as it would compromise its ethnostate, it’s on them to counter offer on that point if they are going to reject it.
And article 25, about armed resistance, specifically is about the occupation. A two state solution would end the occupation, which would make armed resistance unnecessary.
In addition, Hamas has offered to lay down its arms if a two state solution were implemented. If Israel wanted peace, why wouldn’t they take that chance? If continuing to occupy Palestine ensures resistance, and negotiating peace that includes a two state solution provides for the possibility of peace, only a warmonger would choose to continue the occupation.
PathfinderZ1@reddit
There truly is no hope for Zionists. Just absolutely soulless.
year_trader_99@reddit
Tell me more about “soulless Zionists,” while Egypt has consistently kept its border policies tight, limiting Palestinian access to refuge
PathfinderZ1@reddit
And what makes you think I agree with the Egyptian (compromised) Governments' actions, Zionist? What an asinine response..
I would be more concerned with addressing the nation causing the need for refuge.
year_trader_99@reddit
The Palestinians are the nation causing the need for refuge for Palestinians, lol. Do you not see?
rattleandhum@reddit
liar, genocidaire, empty hearted. A pox.
year_trader_99@reddit
Start a war, lose the genocidal war you started, play the victim, repeat. I won't lie, with the rise of leftist brain rot, it is working for them.
rattleandhum@reddit
suffer a tragedy, then commit that tragedy on another people, whose land you stole, repeatedly again and again, kettle them into ghettos, bombs them, subject them to apartheid, kill their children, their doctors, their academics, fund their extremists because it works in your interests, and tell them any time they resist they're terrorists.
You cannot create a safe haven by creating a catastrophe for another people, and the zionists started this. In 1903, the jewish population of the Palestinian mandate was 3%. It grew, due to aliyah, to 38% by 1935 -- all of those foreign born. If ANY other country had that influx of immigrants, they would resist, especially if those people demanded the country for themselves underwrit by religious decree.
The UK population of Muslims is a mere 6%, and look at how angry white gammons are about the 'erasure of their culture'. Imagine half of the country changing and tell me you don't think a civil war would start?
capt_fantastic@reddit
just keep lying.
Israel Rejected Peace with Hamas on Five Occasions
The gruesome violence employed by the Israeli army during the First Intifada radicalized Hamas, which grew increasingly militant thereafter. Hamas fighters killed two Israeli soldiers in 1989, and after Israeli police slaughtered 22 Palestinian civilians in a protest on Oct. 8, 1990, Hamas committed its first attack on Israeli civilians on Dec. 14, 1990. Two Hamas militants from Gaza stabbed three Israeli workmen to death in Jaffa. From that point forward, Hamas killed hundreds of Israeli civilians in dozens of attacks.
Hamas stayed out of politics during the Oslo Process, a series of political agreements between Israel and the PLO that gradually transferred a degree of Palestinian autonomy within the Occupied Palestinian Territories to the newly established Palestinian Authority (PA) and the Palestinian National Council (PNC). During the 1990s, Hamas refused to recognize the legitimacy of negotiations with Israel and thus took no part in Palestinian elections. But, by 2006, Hamas leaders decided they could have a greater impact from within the system than without, and the group participated in the January 2006 PNC elections. To everyone’s surprise, they won.
In March 2006, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh put out a peace overture and wrote:
“We in Hamas are for peace and want to put an end to bloodshed. We have been observing a unilateral truce for more than a year without reciprocity from the Israeli side. The message from Hamas and the Palestinian Authority to the world powers is this: talk to us no more about recognising Israel’s ‘right to exist’ or ending resistance until you obtain a commitment from the Israelis to withdraw from our land and recognise our rights.”
He added, “Peaceful means will do if the world is willing to engage in a constructive and fair process in which we and the Israelis are treated as equals.”
In 2008, Hamas leader Khaled Meshal agreed to a 10-year truce with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state in the pre-1967 Occupied Territories with Jerusalem as its capital, with genuine sovereignty, but without settlements and without recognizing Israel. Israel rejected both proposals outright.
In 2012, Hamas’s military commander Ahmed Jabari had been conducting indirect talks with Israel via Hamas’ deputy foreign minister, Ghazi Hamad, all with the approval of Israel’s then-Defense Minister Ehud Barak. Jabari was expected to sign the peace treaty with Israel. However the dominant view among Israel’s political leadership at the time was that truce talks with Hamas were futile. Israel believed it was preferable to strengthen its “deterrence capacity” by “severely impair[ing] the command and control chain of the Hamas leadership as well as its terrorist infrastructure.” Alas, Israel assassinated Jabari just hours after he received a draft of the deal. Shortly thereafter, it threatened to assassinate every living Hamas political and military leader.
In 2017, Hamas presented a new charter advocating for “a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of 4 June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.” Needless to say, these overtures were also rejected outright. “Hamas is attempting to fool the world, but it will not succeed,” a spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said at the time.
Israel’s leadership would have the world believe that Hamas has committed itself to unrelenting terror since its founding, a narrative soothing for the grieving Israeli public, but also one at odds with Hamas’s complex evolution. A closer look at Hamas’s history suggests that it sought a truce with Israel in 1988, 2006, 2008, 2012, and 2017. Alas, Israel has preferred war to peace, if peace means a challenge to Jewish demographic domination in Israel or a full withdrawal from the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
year_trader_99@reddit
in Hamas's own framing it's a tactical acceptance of a Palestinian state on '67 borders as a stage (2017 Hamas Document, Art. 20), while maintaining the long-term position that Palestine "from the river to the sea" is indivisible (Art. 2) and that armed resistance until "liberation" of all of it remains the strategic choice (Art. 25).
In other words, Hamas can get the fuck out with its peace proposals lol
SexCodex@reddit
It doesn't matter at all who is in power. Like everybody else on the planet, Palestinians would prefer to die fighting than to die laying down. Israel is committed to this genocide, they and everyone who is enabling them are responsible. We need to stop them.
year_trader_99@reddit
It doesn't matter at all who is in power. Like anyone else on the planet, Israelis would prefer to die fighting than to die lying down. Hamas is committed to its genocidal goals against the Jews. They and everyone who is enabling them are responsible. We need to stop them
Freud-Network@reddit
Just assume that "Hamas" will appear everywhere Israel wants to claim territory for themselves. They've found a winning strategy that slack-jawed idiots will believe.
xccehlsiorz@reddit
Jesus fucking Christ.
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Yeah, as any reasonable person is. The destruction of an ethnostate built on genocide and colonization is a good thing.
year_trader_99@reddit
I guess you’re not a native American lol
PartySr@reddit
Israel is doing the same thing in West Bank.
Raping the Palestinians, torturing, killing them. This is nothing but a sport for you and the rest of the Zionists.
brackfriday_bunduru@reddit
Given what Israel’s done over the last few years, I don’t really feel like there are any middle eastern states that are overly happy with them. It feels from the outside like Hamas could be the least of their problems soon in the region.
meister2983@reddit
Huh? There never were any middle eastern states happy with them unless you count Cyprus as the middle East
Fwiw, the monachs are happy enough. Israel is busy weakening Iran for them
year_trader_99@reddit
They probably did far less than any Arab country would have done under the same circumstances, and they know it.
cambeiu@reddit
The Waffen SS would have absolutely thrilled and proud to see their legacy live on in the most unlikely place.
It is also refreshing to see Israel openly and overtly embracing the strategy of "crimes against humanity". I expect that we should hear about a "final solution to the Palestinian problem" any time now.
SowingSalt@reddit
Seeing as Palestinian leadership helped raise Waffen SS formations from Baltic Muslims: Hahahaha, oh wait, you're serious!
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Get better hasbara. Shouting about Amin Al Husseini is getting old.
SowingSalt@reddit
Using historical facts is too easy. How about all the people with such choice quotes as 'we will pave Arab roads with the skulls of Jews'?
pseudoanon@reddit
A lot of people seem to be confused about the lessons Jews took away from the Holocaust.
It's not genocide bad. It's being the victim of genocide is very bad.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
"Waffen SS" and "final solution" over a story about people being offered VOLUNTARY exit and refusing it. Nice Holocaust inversion you have there, projecting the genocide of Jews back onto the Jewish state. The IHRA definition flags Nazi-Israel comparisons as antisemitism for exactly this reason.
You also clearly didn't read it. Defence minister Katz never said "ethnic cleansing", that's the Guardian's framing, not his words. He said "hagira", the closest English word is "emigration ", in Hebrew, on X, hedged with "at the right time and in the right manner", which he's said for over a year with no destination country, no withdrawal, and a frozen ceasefire behind it. You reacted to an English translation of a Hebrew word through a British paper's editorial gloss and jumped to the SS. A reflexive Nazi analogy, a headline you didn't get past, and a language you don't speak. Quite a combination.
SexCodex@reddit
"Voluntary exit", just like the first policies of the Nazis. What a shame we can't mention that.
MechaAristotle@reddit
People tend to not know or forget there was a substantial period of encouraging Jewish emigration before imprisonment and extermination started.
4g-identity@reddit
In high school I remember the unit on WWII had stuff like "ten stages of genocide", starting with "language of dehumanization" and "passing laws setting apart the victims". Then also, the stuff about the German euphemistic language of "special actions" and such.
It's so weird to see actual comments like this guy, out in the open, that are like "excuse me, this is only step 4/10 ... and please note that the leaders have tended to use the euphemisms, and not words like genocide or exterminate! so stop getting so huffy!!!"
Thanks, commenter guy, the world can sleep easy now.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
"Substantial"
dasunt@reddit
Ethnic cleansing is the "systematic, forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group" through tactics like violence, intimidation, or disenfranchisement.
It can take many forms. In the US, the "Indian removal" was in theory, voluntary, offering native nations land in the western part of the US in exchange for their lands in the east, with the expectation that those lands would then be settled by European farmers. In practice, it was often far from voluntary, with intimidation, bribery and violence used.
In early Nazi Germany, Jews were targeted with a series of restrictions designed to encourage them to leave. Despite a long history in Germany, Jews weren't considered German. They were banned from many jobs, businesses boycotted, and restricted education. Later their citizenship was removed. This was to encourage Jews to leave. (This hatred and dehumanization would ratchet up to systematic mass executions by the early 1940s.)
In the lead up to the Armenian genocide, the Armenians in the Ottoman empire saw their lands taken and repopulated with Muslim neighbors. The Ottomans saw the Armenians (mostly Christians) as a threat to their national integrity - especially after the loss of most of their Balkan territory via independence movements. Roughly 300,000 Armenians emigrated due to growing unrest, and the Ottoman army often ignored or even sided with Muslims when it came to violence against Armenians.
Just because Katz didn't use ethnic cleansing doesn't mean it isn't one. Why do you think people would voluntarily leave the only homes they ever knew on a mass scale? That only happens when something goes wrong. Outside of natural disasters or similar events, usually it's due to someone else, even if it appears voluntary.
In a way, I think the confusion is because we teach history wrong. We focus on the atrocities, but not the lead up to the atrocities, and that does us a grave disservice.
InformationHead3797@reddit
“We bombed your home to smithereens, killed half your family, destroyed all hospitals, killed or arrested all your doctors, nurses, teachers, paramedics, veterinarians, livestock, journalists, police, civil servants, politicians.
We destroyed all your water desalination plants, completely erased your infrastructure, we block incoming aid, medications, food, newborn formula.
We stop medical evacuation, we block international journalists from getting in, we block ONG workers from getting in, we erased th UN agency that used to help you.
We now kindly offer you a chance to leave your homeland voluntarily, since it’s now unliveable.
Do not call it ethnic cleansing though, it’s VOLUNTARY!!!”
The gall of you new nazis making such a disgusting argument in public is unparalleled.
PossibleVirus2197@reddit
As of the last few years, Israel has murdered more Palestinians than Nazi Germany did, so.... I think comparing both is fair.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
"More Palestinians than Nazi Germany did" puts you off by about eighty to one. Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews, plus millions more Roma, Poles, Soviet prisoners and disabled people. Gaza's toll, horrible as it is, is around seventy-two thousand. That's not "more than," it's not even within two orders of magnitude of it if you encompass 78 yesrs and include the palestinans killed by Egypt, Assad and Lebanon, You kinda didn't read what I wrot before replying.
since you want to do WWII, the single most prominent Palestinian leader of that whole time period, Haj Amin al-Husseini the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had met Hitler in Berlin in 1941 and spent the war as Berlin's guest then went on to Nazi radio broadcasts telling people to "kill the Jews wherever you find them." He recruited around 25,000 Bosnian-Muslim men into the Waffen-SS. And he personally wrote to Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria demanding they block Jewish kids from escaping the Palestinan mandate, suggesting they get sent to Poland instead. Unless you're going to tell me the grand mufti is a liar?
So if you're game is "who actually likes the Nazis," your answer really doesn't work how you want it to. The Jews were the ones in the camps. The most famous guy in the Palestinian leadership was the one in Berlin helping fill them. using "Nazis" as your chosen word for the Jewish state which houses a population that is nearly 30% muslim with an additional 2m Palestinians living in Israel proper, after all that, isn't a fair comparison you're just reverting to inversion like every other westerner in my thread.
A Spaniard and antisemetism. name a more iconic duo
StarWarsMonopoly@reddit
Oh, well that must mean its not ethnic cleansing then, and we should definitely take their word for it.
The lack of self-awareness in this response says so much.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
Monolingual American thinks he understands hebrew because a English British Media outlet wrote a sensationalized headline by google translating a tweet with no understanding of masc/feminine differences and linguistic context in the hebrew language. like go read his tweet slowpoke
VOLUNTARY EMIGRATION
nobody is being forced to leave gaza
Unlike america where you'll be shot in your car for smiling at an ice agent while latino
HenryHamilhocker@reddit
How do you not get this? If you force famine on people and bomb them, and then give them the "option" to move, you're not really giving them an option. Its ethnic cleansing regardless of what worlds Israeli officials use to describe it.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
show me one person in Gaza without an autoimmune disease actually suffering from famine. I've only seen pictures and videos of fat shuk venders and normal looking kids laughing as they try and make light of a dark situation. never seen a famine with people driving benzes
HenryHamilhocker@reddit
The people in the real photo included in the article are obviously starving. You're either an idiot or you're getting part of that $730 million Hasbara budget.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
obvious how? the attached photo is Palestinians at a ghf food distribution center. Last i checked literally every food distribution center in MENA and south Africa looks like that because there's no such thing as a proper queue in these situations. None of those people look malnourished. The elderly women look like normal 70+ elderly women. the kid in the photo has big round cheeks. contrast this to Nigeria where there actually is a starvation issue and kids so frail you can wrap two fingers around their bicep
are you purposefully acting ignorant?
GhostWaffle123@reddit
Okay yeah, you're definitely a troll. You see those things because you choose to blind yourself in some fit of willful ignorance or you're just a hasbara bot, in which case, you can screw right off.
Do a favor to the world and never comment online again.
fifthflag@reddit
The jews were given voluntary exit from Germany as well, starting from 1933 with the Haavara Agreement. And after forced explusion, causing massive refugee walls ( just like Israel caused with Palestinians in Lebanon and Jordan).
The difference between Nazis and the Israeli govermnent is just the timeline not ideology or capability, Israel felt like it had to act as a normal democracy as long as people didn't look too much into the occupied territories, now not so much.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
Haavara was 1933, the Final Solution was 1942. That's not the same timeline, it's two different things. The Nazis switched to extermination because emigration "failed" for them, not because genocide was just emigration left in the sun longer. You smushed two opposite phases into one "ideology" to make the weak comparison work for ur argument
"Same ideology and capability, just the timeline" also doesn't isn't basic addition. Israel has controlled Gaza's borders, airspace and had nukes for almost twenty years and the population grew. Nazis killed two thirds of Europe's Jews in four years. Even the worst war numbers aren't close. If time was the only variable it'd be going the other way.
You can call it ethnic cleansing without going "literally Nazis but slower." You skipped Greece-Turkey, India-Pakistan and twelve million expelled Germans to land on a random 1933 deal involving Jews, so you could say they were always the Nazis. That's the tell. And הגירה מרצון just means "migration of one's own will." You matched English words to a narrative already in your head.
fifthflag@reddit
Yeah, its ethnic cleaning in all other instances too, not only Israel and Nazis, i point it just because it's ironic since Israel claims to be a safe refuge against future nazis, while being nazis themselves, that's all.
How you or the Nazis you support conform to it or try to habsara it away it is not important, the truth is what matters.
hardolaf@reddit
According to the IHRA definition, Albert Einstein was an anti-semite for making that comparison in the 1950s.
4g-identity@reddit
Yep, bizarre that this is as true as it is.
I will be fair and say that Palestine isn't quite facing literal "march you to your deaths, as many as possible" conditions. SS had a level of depravity that Israel hasn't matched, and I think it's a bad idea be blind to that fact.
But on the other hand, Israel has exceeded the depravity in other ways, like by skipping the "do this out of sight, cover it up, deny it" stuff, instead going with "lmao international law isn't real, palestine and palestinians aren't real, we simply assert it's ok for us to do this, plus you can't stop it".
Like, this sub and others will generally get half a dozen Israeli commenters showing up on posts like this — they aren't saying "we didn't kill all those people" or "it was an accident", but "fafo, pallies lose and cry", as if it's a football derby.
It's pretty crazy how proud and open it all is, even the stuff that's on film and English. It's absolutely chilling when you see some of the Hebrew stuff. In 2025 I joined some of their telegram groups and poked around. Photos of aftermath of airstrikes, dismembered bodies in the street, blood and limbs. Comments saying things like "i thought they were supposedly starving! they could just eat this ... or is it not halal, lol????". Laugh emoji and bicep emoji reactions.
Noped out of there so fast. Part of me thought I should save it for posterity or something, but sorry, I literally couldn't keep reading.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
I have seen so many stories in r/Poland of Israelis disrespecting holocaust memorial over there
baeb66@reddit
These people read "Eichmann in Jerusalem" and furiously took notes.
Neco-Arc-Brunestud@reddit
You have no idea how true this is. Internet fascists occasionally say that their countries should more of an ethnostate like Israel.
xSypRo@reddit
There was a time right after October 7th when it was obvious Israel is going to strike them hard, and then during. And people used to say “Free Gaza” or “Free Palestine” and we would add “from Hamas”. I argued with lot of people about the intention of this war. After the first year of war it became obvious to lot of Israelis that the goal is not to free the hostages. Then settlers began to talk about building new settlements inside Gaza.
The reason Netanyahu never spoke about “the day after” in Gaza, and why he still doesn’t. And the truth is… this is what they want, to destroy Gaza to the ground, keep Hamas there as an excuse to not allow to rebuild it and then push the Palestinians out by saying it’s the humanitarian solution only to build settlements there.
Smotritch, one of the Israeli leader’s famously said in an interview that “Hamas is an asset and the PA are the danger, because Hamas are terrorist no one will collaborate with them or demand anything for them”. So this how the war served them well. And all of those who died in both sides? They don’t care
Competitive_Ad_5515@reddit
there is substantial reporting and analysis (the Independent, Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post et. al) that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pursued a long-term strategy since the 1980s of supporting Hamas to weaken the Palestinian Authority (PA), prevent a two-state solution, and squeeze out moderate Palestinian leaders.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
The onyk terrorist is IDF not Hamas, Hamas is resistance group not terrorist, thwy called by terrorist by genocidal zionist to demonize them just like apartheid South Africa called Nelson Mandela a terrorist for opposing apartheid
PooManGroup29@reddit
how does blowing up a Sbarro free Palestine?
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Same how MK helped in fight against aparthied south Africa. If they sit there instead of fighting for theie rights then they would he still oppressed.
PooManGroup29@reddit
correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that it's okay to blow up a restaurant so long as the right people are dying?
xSypRo@reddit
Hamas are terrorists. The fact they fight Israel, the country you hate doesn’t make them heroes.
Do you also think Iran aren’t terrible because they fight Israel? The same Iran that executed people for protesting or beat girls to death for not wearing Hijab.
Welcome to the real world, there are no super heroes or good guys. It’s just villains all around.
Do not idolize any of them.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Iran regime is terrible but I support their against "Israelis aggression. You can be anti-Anti-zionist without supporting Iran regime, I oppose Hamas as geoup since they are Islamists,
redridingoops@reddit
Then you hadn't paid attention or were already lying through your teeh.
Israel has been is the business of stealing Arab land since day its inception, posing as a victim on occasion doesn't change those facts.
Nobody is surprised by what's currently happening because that's what has been happening every single day before, good luck dealing with your inbred settlers once you're done trying to build "greater Israel" based on a bunch of silly novel that identifies as history.
bellysavalis@reddit
I would even delve into conspiracy thinking and ask yourself genuinely how a country famous for it's intelligence capabilities genuinely missed this attack coming from a strip of land 365km square that they have been surveilling for decades.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
I would also question the intelligence of a people that elected a government whose policy was to invade and massacre a neighboring nation that had just given their nation independence and who possessed a much stronger military and nuclear weapons.
bellysavalis@reddit
I would question the intelligence of someone who just made a statement such as yours. And no, I'm not going to bother explaining it to you, it's not up to me to educate random people on the internet.
Neco-Arc-Brunestud@reddit
Do you typically put words in people's mouths?
capt_fantastic@reddit
trump is compromised, at a minimum by israel and the russians. the israeli leadership probably see his presidency as an opportunity to accelerate the land grab.
Agasthenes@reddit
Honestly this is for the best long term.
There is no world where the population of Gaza can prosper on this little bit of land sorounded by hostile states.
I hope there is a way to do this organised with as little as possible suffering to finally move past this conflict.
ChillAhriman@reddit
Would you say "honestly this is for the best long term" if Israeli Jews were being kicked out of Israel back to Europe and North America? I can't help but notice that the "little bit of land surrounded by hostile states" applies far better to them.
SowingSalt@reddit
Jews should go back to Iran, Iraq, Libya, and other MENA nations that ethnically cleansed them is certainly a take.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
I would take our Jews back if they decided to return
SowingSalt@reddit
How many pogroms has the rest of the country put on the schedule?
Agasthenes@reddit
I would also support that solution.
But you do realise the majority of Israeli are not from Europe and northern America, but Arab Jews that were forced to flee their home country?
What would you do with them?
ChillAhriman@reddit
This is completely incorrect. The majority of Jews are Ashkenazi, which were located in Europe and North America about one century ago. If you also add Sephardic Jews, 85-90% of all Jews have their roots from 6 centuries ago in Europe (most Sephardic Jews were expulsed from Iberia around that time). All Sephardic Jews are allowed to get Spanish citizenship since 10 years ago ( https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_de_nacionalidad_espa%C3%B1ola_para_los_sefard%C3%ADes ), and virtually all Ashkenazi Jews have some European or North American country they have a right to get citizenship in on behalf of their recent family. Mizrahi Jews are a small minority, and I'm sure they'd have no shortage of Western countries willing to take them in if they deemed Irak/Iran/Egypt/Syria to be unsafe for them.
metamorphotits@reddit
this is objectively not true.
the majority of israelis are second or third generation israelis born in israel. the second largest group are immigrants from europe and the americas (20.5%) and only 9.2% are from africa and the middle east.
when it comes to ancestry in a 2019 study: 44.9% identify with having grandparents born in asia and north africa (having grandparents born in israel would qualify)- except ~8% of the population with mixed origins, the rest are not from the middle east.
look at the chart under "ethnic and religious groups" that describes parental or own origin. what's the biggest single group after israeli origin?here
also worth mentioning that israel considers "arabs" to be distinct from "jews". have you ever wondered why that is?
rattleandhum@reddit
stfu bootlicking ghoul.
farbenfux@reddit
"for the best" wtf? There is only ONE hostile state and it is the one colonizing Palestine. They already flattened Gaza and keep destroying the West Bank and we are supporting it. This opinion is appalling.
What's your next take? Ukraine should just accept that they lost land and people and move on because they live next to a hostile country?
Agasthenes@reddit
*conquering, a colony is something different.
MechaCoqui@reddit
A german supporting ethnic cleansing, did you forget your red band?
lemmingswag@reddit
German flair says ethnic cleansing is for the best, color me shocked
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/0pxQa7i0HE
TheBeardPlays@reddit
Ethnic cleansing is for the best in the long term?
Wow... Quite the thing to say
Chloe1906@reddit
Ethnic cleansing is for the best? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?? Disgusting piece of shit.
RisingDeadMan0@reddit
And the same for the west bank then too?
at that point will Israel finally declare its borders?
"Honestly this is for the best long term."*****
***assuming we arent allowed to internationally sanction israel, unlike aparthied south africa (who was supported by israel)
ChillAhriman@reddit
I refuse to acknowledge as legitimate any land gained through ethnic cleansing, even if you're living in it generations after the fact. And I'm just some dude in Spain, but perhaps Israel should pay attention to how popular is this sentiment among Muslim-majority countries and what does this say about their future as a country.
Freud-Network@reddit
Well, no shit. That's been said the entire time. Who is going to do anything about it? Nobody? In the future, whoever claims the west has moral societies should be shown the books that will be written about this.
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