The world's carmakers are struggling to compete with China
Posted by cookingboy@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 126 comments
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Posted by cookingboy@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 126 comments
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tachyonic_field@reddit
EU destroyed it's own automotive industry by crazy regulations, pretty much everything after 2018 and CEOs whose only skill seem to be cost cutting.
We deserve it.
NothingCreative1@reddit
And what regulations are those? please don’t say emissions…
Tonyn15665@reddit
It is emission then the union rules then the flaky EV push when not ready. EU is mainly run by morons who have nothing to show except virtue signaling.
NothingCreative1@reddit
Funny, because China produces significantly less emissions per vehicle because majority of their industry is EV. (fine I’ll give you the argument that the EU wasn’t ready. But if it wasn’t for regulations, would they ever be?) and nothing to do with the fact that a Chinese worker gets 40% of what German makes on the assembly line.
hawkish25@reddit
They also have far far lower energy costs because in EU (and UK) we refuse to build anything because of NIMBY and sadly environmentalism, which means we over index towards services economy over industrials.
I loved environmentalstm as a kid and teen, but sadly even I have to admit it’s now obstructing a lot of economic growth and I hate the choice that we need to make.
boomhower0@reddit
Hey big coal this guy wants a power plant down the street
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
> I loved environmentalstm as a kid and teen, but sadly even I have to admit it’s now obstructing a lot of economic growth and I hate the choice that we need to make.
American has now choose that, but it didn’t help either…
fuzzylogicIII@reddit
Ironically china is a leader in renewable energy, but their lack of regulation to pollute their own country did help accelerate the development to the current state
I_hate_alot_a_lot@reddit
> Funny, because China produces significantly less emissions per vehicle because majority of their industry is EV.
China also burns 5x the coal than the US does despite only needing to produce 2x the electricity the US does. That statistic is very misleading because it doesn't tell the full story.
June1994@reddit
China’s coal story is a lot cleaner than US coal. They have insane regulations and they use super and ultra critical reactors.
China’s coal use peaked anyway. They’re basically done and China’s coal usage is only expected to generally decrease over time.
I_hate_alot_a_lot@reddit
> They have insane regulations
My brother in Christ, China quite literally uses slave labor to get their coal and has much lower environmental enforcement and emissions controls per coal plant than the United States.
Still better than they were 20-30 years ago, but "China’s coal story is a lot cleaner than US coal. They have insane regulations and they use super and ultra critical reactors" is just... not factually true.
June1994@reddit
Don’t believe everything you read. Especially when its from Adrian Zenz and USAID. Is there shady stuff going on? Yes, but slave labor? Only about as “slave” as US private prison labor.
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/everything-think-know-coal-china-wrong/
This is from 2017. They have literal autonomous, driverless haul trucks driving coal around the mines now.
I_hate_alot_a_lot@reddit
> Don’t believe everything you read
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/society-equity/us-bans-imports-five-more-chinese-companies-over-uyghurs-2024-08-08/
> They have literal autonomous, driverless haul trucks driving coal around the mines now.
So because they have autonomous driving, that somehow equates to better regulation and enforcement?!?!?!
June1994@reddit
So what? I don’t believe United States allegations, and believe me, I’ve read them. Like I said, don’t believe everything you read. Especially when its comes from a biased source.
Read the article I provided for you. It’s from Center for American Progress.
boomhower0@reddit
Like you said brother don’t believe everything you read
I_hate_alot_a_lot@reddit
So Canada, the EU (collectively), and the United Kingdom are also wrong?
What about other countries that at least issued condemnations and diplomatic criticisms such as Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Lithuania, Netherlands, Belgium, Czech Republic, Germany, France and Norway?
Those countries are ALL wrong, too?
Evilmoustachetwirler@reddit
While they are the worlds largest consumer of coal, they don't only use it for power, a lot going into steel manufacturing etc. The whole world shifted their manufacturing to China, so naturally their emissions will be high, but they're also making substantial growth in renewables.
I_hate_alot_a_lot@reddit
I already pointed out that they have made substantial growth in renewables.
LlamaDebauchery@reddit
Input costs are significantly higher when you, you know, pay your workers a decent wage and avoid slave labor when possible (Dont forget the Uyghur Muslims captured and sent to literal camps in China)
Lego_Hippo@reddit
Cheap labor isn't why China is ahead. It's been the infrastructure, knowledge and experience to build better cars.
There's a reason why phone makers transitioned to making cars at scale when other established manufacturers struggled.
Azncheesy@reddit
You are delusional if you think cheap labor wasn't how China got here they might not be using cheap labor now and has move on higher level production. But it is the cheap labor that got them here in the first place.
juh4z@reddit
Yeah, right, it's not like Europeand the USA have hundreds of years of slave labor and stealing resources from the rest of the world, no sir, they got here while paying everyone even more than they deserved.
Lego_Hippo@reddit
I never claimed it's not how China got where it is, I'm saying it's not why they're ahead.
LlamaDebauchery@reddit
Dont forget brain drain from US students and researchers heading back to China after visas were no longer supported for them.
ApprehensiveSize7662@reddit
You don't know about factory automation?
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
Well right. You think the auto-workers unions are going to let that happen?
There’s a conversation to be had about the balance between cheap consumer goods and a persons inherit dignity to earn a living.
Sylente@reddit
I mean there was a time the elevator-operator unions went on strike because they didn’t want to be replaced by robots. Now there are no elevator operators. Because they got replaced by robots, the strike was moot.
This happens over and over again in history. The automation ALWAYS wins. Eventually. Automation has never lost. Ever.
LlamaDebauchery@reddit
Well yeah, but how do you think those factories got built in the first place
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throwawaymask01@reddit
Comparing the European and Chinese automotive industries is comparing apples to oranges. Europe is burdened with a 'legacy cost', it has a century of infrastructure built entirely around combustion. Transitioning that requires time and massive investment.
China, meanwhile, is utilizing a state-capitalist model. They aren’t just winning on wages or because they are smarter lol; they are operating on unsustainable quarterly losses, propped up by heavy state subsidies specifically to capture global market share. The Chinese government is already signaling that this spending is unsustainable and is forcing a market consolidation.
The real failure of European regulators is the 'forced transition.' They are trying to legislate the consumer into EVs by making combustion engines unaffordable through punitive taxation and emission standards impossible to meet with affordable and durable combustion powered goods, which is still the need for most europeans, while failing to provide a viable infrastructure or affordable alternatives. They are punishing the consumer for a transition that the technology and the grid aren't ready to support yet.
tachyonic_field@reddit
After declaration of full ICE phase-out in 2035 Euro 6 norm should remain last one to give carmakers opportunity to focus on developmemt of EVs.
Furthermore:
corporate average fuel economy is utterly stupid measure. It means you that it's better to sell two cars with lower average than one
stop promoting heavy vehicles. It's insane that you can still buy V8 pick-up truck but six-cyllinder engines in sedans have been decimated
For non-emission part: all those driver assistance technology is way too unstable, non-deterministic and immature to mandate it's introduction.
Facts_pls@reddit
The high cost of western cars was unironically the biggest reason why Chinese cars won initially.
If western EVs were cheaper, Chinese wouldn't be able to just undercut them.
I know people don't like companies cutting costs but they hate paying the high prices even more
Zgicc@reddit
Oh no protecting the environment.
We're looking at a worldwide catastrophe and all we are thinking about are profits.
As much as I hate to say it I'm glad I won't be here in a few decades.
bwoah_gimmethedrink@reddit
Europe should struggle for the entire world. Meanwhile US is backing off from environmental treaties, India is still an enormous polluter and China is opening new coal mines.
Simon_787@reddit
China is the global leader in clean tech, and India still has 40% lower absolute CO2 emissions than the US depsite having a quarter of the population, so it's kinda silly to mention India.
Okay, but guess which of these three countries was the one who voted against a recent landmark UN resolution to hold countries accountable for climate change.
Elvis1404@reddit
Come on, in the EU we can't buy a 2.0 Miata or a 1.4 Turbo Mild-hybrid Swift Sport because they are "too polluting", but 2+ tons SUVs are gladly allowed and increasing in number...
That's because the lighter the car is, the higher the CO2 tax is (just like in the US)... The laws need to be changed
tachyonic_field@reddit
You know what is the way to end global environmental crisis?
Georgism, i.e. replacing all taxes in favour land value and Pigouvian ones.
See /r/georgism for more info.
Current policy is like guy who takes ozempic while still eating fast food and refuse to exercise.
desf15@reddit
Western manufacturers destroyed themselves by focusing on squeezing as much money as possible instead of focusing on creating better products, and it starts to kick them in the balls.
markyymark13@reddit
American brands got caught with their pants down during the 08 recession because no one wanted to buy a Hummer anymore. These brands are barreling straight into another bankruptcy because we didn’t learn our lesson from last time because all that matters is protecting profit margins. This is on us.
Any_Sale2030@reddit
Ever been to Detroit? Most insular group of Americans I’ve seen. Completely unaware of the rest of the US. Completely unaware of why we drive imports. They think we’re crazy. News flash to Detroit. I DON’T WANT AN SUV OR PICKUP
magshell-alpha@reddit
I don't think they care. The c-suite will be out with their paychecks regardless of the future.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Glad to see you not saying high labors and local inflation destroying themselves.
I don’t doubt how advance in Chinese factories, but I don’t think their labors expensive too.
Lego_Hippo@reddit
Nationalism is what built the auto industry and nationalism is what's going to kill the industry.
great video covering this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhhZu0ZHdw4
trackdaybruh@reddit
Aka going public to maximize shareholders, especially its board of directors, stock value.
kimi_rules@reddit
In Malaysia, the Japanese are the most popular import brand. They seemed to be struggling with the Chinese coming in with better quality and reliable cars, and I'm not kidding on the latter.
German brands do be chilling though, they haven't moved upmarket yet against the luxuries. They need prestige and branding which they still lacked rn.
ethereal3xp@reddit
Must be nice to receive subsidy.
Once marketshare rises, so will purchase price.
ValueFighter@reddit
the same complaints of an eventual price rise were made of chinese solar panels and batteries yet they're cheaper than ever. Chinese firms will simply continue compete with each other
Simon_787@reddit
Why do we subsidize fossil fuels then?
Kinda seems like our fault for subsidizing the wrong technology, doesn't it?
tararira1@reddit
Without the US government intervention, the big three would have died long ago
JuliusCeaserBoneHead@reddit
Which automaker doesn’t receive subsidies?
ethereal3xp@reddit
Not the way BYD or other prominent Chinese car companies have it these days.
You think the US is making deals - Wine for GMC trucks?
JuliusCeaserBoneHead@reddit
Are you complaining that the reason why our automakers buy back their stocks instead of investing in RD, make affordable products, make competing products is because our government isn’t helping them as much as it could?
Optical_reality@reddit
how long until a car company joins them?
argent_pixel@reddit
China has 500 million more people than the EU, USA and Japan combined. It's simple economies of scale. They can churn out shit cheaper because they have more customers at home and when you add international markets it simply increases even more while the other three major economies I mentioned have never been able/allowed to penetrate China in the same way.
Beyond that, I've still to see these compelling Chinese EVs that aren't doing the same basic 2 screen dashboard, ~~Ferrari Luce~~ ipad on wheels that every single car company is doing.
K_R_A_K_E_N_540@reddit
Everyone shunned and made fun of EVs despite them being a literal car fans wet dream.
Super reliable, basically no running costs, instant power that makes a Ferrari seem slow and a low price ( for high performance models )
Yet people shit on them without ever driving one, sure enough China soldiered on and is now winning. Europe meanwhile keeps kicking the EV transition down the road to appease stockholders to the point that most EU brands will cease to exist
enhancedgibbon@reddit
As a car guy I would strongly disagree with that first statement. I've got an EV on order and yes it's fast (4.5 to 100kmh) but definitely not desirable. I'm buying it for the convenience and tax incentives.
As for China, they'd be in a better position if they didn't spend decades blatantly ripping off every other manufacturer and building lazy clone shite. They've got a way to go before they can win me over.
Nostra_Damoose@reddit
Regulars seem to not understand what car fans want. EV makes for a good toaster, point A to B daily commuter. Certainly far from what makes someone truly enjoy what a car truly is outside of it just being an appliance or a form of transportation to get somewhere.
Sylente@reddit
Let’s be real. What a car truly is, in 90% of cases, is a toaster. And that’s ok! This sub gets upset about it, but for the vast majority of people their car is just a toaster with wheels, regardless of what that car is. It’s a heavily-branded toaster, but it’s a toaster.
c1884896@reddit
I have a Porsche Taycan and it is the best car I have ever owned, by far, after owning endless Audi, BMW, Volvo…
My wife loves it as a commuter car, with no drama, full “tank” every morning, virtually no maintenance and $16 CAD to drive 1,000 kms.
And I, as a car enthusiast, enjoy its instant acceleration, low center of gravity and fantastic driving dynamics.
All of this, for the same price as a decently optioned BMW 330i xDrive because people still think EVs are not ready for prime time lol lol lol
Recoil42@reddit
I've got news for you about literally every other automaking nation.
KingMario05@reddit
Which is still better than what Detroit is doing - the equivalent of sticking fingers in their ears and yelling "LA LA LA LA LA LA!"
peakdecline@reddit
Ford and GM both invested tens of billions into going electric. Including making EV versions of their most popular models. And then the US political winds shifted and completely wiped out their investments. The EV transition clearly required immense subsidization from the government to make happen. China is proof.
And crucially China went in even heavier with those subsidies, went at it for longer, went at it more consistently and wasn't subject to one election cycle completely wrecking it all.
I don't give Detroit a pass on everything. There's clearly some level of greed and laziness happening here. But they basically had chance given what happened.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
I don’t think Detroit so stupid to believe protection able to help them forever. Our friend from Canada has opened their market for Chinese cars, and Geely is bringing their own brands and models in America. Chinese automakers coming is inevitable.
That’s reason why GM still keeping their EV lineup, Ford is still planning their affordable EV plan, and STLA is paying attention in EV market despite some plans dropped. They do know that.
Cardiff-Giant11@reddit
in fairness, the Big 3 in Detroit have been doing that since the mid 70s.
Tumbleweedwhacker@reddit
Yeah, a top speed of 93 mph is what I always wanted, NOT.
tachyonic_field@reddit
Wait until harsh winter arrives.
K_R_A_K_E_N_540@reddit
Norway, Canada, Sweden , Finland are doing just fine with EVs. That's more of a Facebook myth
I_am_-c@reddit
This is the reality of globalization.
Slavery is outsourced, environmental destruction is outsourced, and corruption is rampant.
With minerals extracted without any regard to the environmental impacts and with significant subsidies and dumping practices to ensure no other area could compete on the mineral extraction and processing side of things, China established a huge and insurmountable lead in energy storage (and capture when it comes to solar panels).
This doesn't even count the near slave labor and the decades of corporate espionage, the years of questionable safety and materials qualities, and other corners that were cut that drastically reduced engineering costs, material costs, and regulatory costs.
Then it gets into the automotive manufacturing front and there have been billions upon billions in direct and indirect subsidies, even more billions in shady government contracts that have driven tens of thousands of models to be built and 'sold' but never actually titled or driven.
With tens or hundreds of billions of dollars of advantage, lower material costs, lower regulatory costs, lower labor costs, and stolen engineering, it should be difficult to compete with China.
This isn't Nationalism, this is reality. I've been a supply chain manager and there simply isn't a way to compete on a purely economic front.
Quality consistency is still a problem at times, but ultimately with the amount of cost manipulation that exists, quality can be afforded because the goal isn't short or medium term profits. The goal is to actively destroy all competition in strategic areas.
When China decides they will own a market, there is a level of alignment that can't be matched in nearly any other country.
Elvis1404@reddit
I'd say that we (western countries) have the big responsibility of having directly sold them most of the "stolen engineering", even though everyone knew they would just copy it for their own gain.
The Chinese government literally almost succeeded at buying a strategic military firm (making military drones) in Italy a few years ago, luckily the Italian government managed to stop everything
Ziakel@reddit
Something that article failed to include is the government involvement. From grants to supply chain, the gov played a big role in this.
Why buy foreign ICE when the domestic EVs are much cheaper and better?
K_R_A_K_E_N_540@reddit
So it's similar to north American and EU government support for it's own car manufacturers then ?
Ziakel@reddit
Yes and I’d argued that it’s even more involved.
Like how American gov are now pushing for more American ICE and less foreign EV. The opposite happened in China.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Chinese is trying to tax and limit more combustion cars. IIRC, they now ask local people for draw and paying more fee if they want to own combustion cars.
Of corse, they can’t say anything because they’ve to follow the rule.
Ziakel@reddit
That is true. The blue plate lottery system sucks for potential ICE buyers.
gtobiast13@reddit
Yeah I don’t know why this doesn’t get more attention. China has spent an enormous amount of resources on services and institutions to support and encourage business development. The companies in distress right now fall under the umbrella of western nations not taking this strategy seriously enough and allowing their industries to degrade. It’s easier to throw up walls than to tax and compete in the short term and it’s starting to show that was a dumb idea.
generaalalcazar@reddit
And they bought the technology. For instance they bought and developed german robot technology. Specificly the robots that build cars. They have build so called “black” factories, where the lights only go on for the maintenance of the robots. They build faster, better and cheaper.
Same goes for windmills, those large ones. China builds them twice as big for half the price and is now offering other countries the funding to buy them.
Elvis1404@reddit
We (western world) are dumbasses, because we sold china almost every single one of our hard-earned technologies for the last 20 years, and now that they finally managed to understand how every those products work (and how to produce them with decent quality) they can just produce it themselves faster and cheaper than us and then innovating on it, effectively cutting us out
markyymark13@reddit
And America has artificially cheap gas, little to no taxes or penalties for owning gas guzzling trucks, incentivizes large suvs through means like CAFE standards and we dismantled our public infrastructure in favor of car centric urban design.
We’re just doing the complete opposite of what China is doing all the way up to the big 3’s inevitable bankruptcy.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
If you think Fed govt would give up Detroit, it’s delusion.
Penguinho@reddit
It's funny how often the government-support side of it fails to be included.
6158675309@reddit
The article absolutely points that out. The OP here either didn’t read the article or just didn’t comprehend it.
I’m less familiar with the EU but the US provides similar levels of state support for vehicle manufacturing. Plenty of research on this.
Penguinho@reddit
I'd be interested to see it.
euvnairb@reddit
Also can’t discount the fact that the Chinese government required all foreign automakers to partner with a domestic automaker in order to sell in China - meaning they had to share technology and ideas. This accelerated the learning curve for the Chinese manufacturers. So, in essence these automakers helped in their own losses.
elgrandorado@reddit
Couldn't that exact same argument be applied to the US? The fact is that government intervention is vital to the existence of all domestic automobile industries.
yobo9193@reddit
Not nearly to the same scale. The US Government intervened to save the Big 3 to ensure they didn’t lay off hundreds of thousands of workers during the greatest financial crisis since the Great Depression; China is funneling money into specific sectors as part of a 5 year plan, with the goal to achieve dominance and make other countries completely reliant on their manufacturers (referred to in economics as “dumping”)
elgrandorado@reddit
I mean the US annihilated their street car and railroad infrastructure to build the interstate system and car infrastructure in the first place, so I would argue the US fundamentally changed how cities and urban planning is done to integrate cars.
yobo9193@reddit
Yes, I would agree. Except that happened before most of us were born and when China was one of the poorest countries in the world; we’re discussing recent events
db_newer@reddit
Dude you forget American tariffs and regulations against foreign made vehicles.
yobo9193@reddit
Someone else addressed it well, but China has all of that and requires foreign brands to partner with a domestic manufacturer to sell to the country. Imagine if America told Hyundai that they needed to use Ford factories to build all their cars.
In the case of China, it’s done to enable IP theft
RichardNixon345@reddit
Yes, those are measures countries often take to counteract dumping.
ZetaM3@reddit
China has invested 10x what the US did over the past 10 years.
elgrandorado@reddit
That sounds like a US problem lol
sc0lm00@reddit
It is, which is why they'll continue to block Chinese vehicles from coming here. That's how capitalism works here.
db_newer@reddit
Yes. There's whole episodes of Planet Money about this. The whole reason inefficient polluting trucks are so cheap for Americans compared to better safer earth friendly cars.
g0atm3a1@reddit
Exactly. The Big 3 wouldn’t be around if the US government hadn’t bailed them out during the Great Recession. Double standards always when it comes to conversations around China.
thebatmanbeynd@reddit
That’s the thing though, domestic EVs are not cheaper. Not by a long shot.
db_newer@reddit
So the Chinese government (and taxpayers) pays you (indirectly) to buy a Chinese car?
Ziakel@reddit
Money is money. As long as it passed lawfully and legally handed to me.
mantenner@reddit
Uh, what domestic EVs are better?
Most countries don't even make their own care, so I assume you're performing some r/USDefaultism here.
Ziakel@reddit
tf you talking about. Why would an average Chinese citizen buy a European or American EV when Chinese domestic market offers better values and potential higher quality?
mantenner@reddit
The article is about global car makers losing their foothold globally to Chinese cars.
The comment I was replying to was talking about people buying domestic vehicles over Chinese cars, but most countries do not have a domestic market.
yobo9193@reddit
You are, they meant “domestic” from the perspective of a Chinese buyer
mantenner@reddit
I see, my bad
yobo9193@reddit
Economists are getting real world evidence of the benefits of a centrally-planned economy.
Simon_787@reddit
That's not a centrally-planned economy.
I would call it good industrial policy, something you rarely find in western countries where oil propaganda flourishes.
Mhdfattal@reddit
Automakers (both Europeans and American) have sat their content with what they have completely forgetting they should strive to actually make better products especially the everyday cars not just the special edition sports cars or the trucks in case of the Americans, since they faced the Japanese from the 70s instead of actually adapting correctly and trying to beat the Japanese they just sat there behind them and tried their hands on different parts of the industry rather than developing and correcting their shortcomings, they also never took the chance to develop the new EV market that they have been showcasing since the 90s they had all the time in the world to fully develop that segment before the Chinese ever thought about it but they were slacking instead and thought of ways of taking advantage of customers well ultimately the regular car buyer wants two thing, as cheap as possible and as reliable as possible, the Chinese offered that in a completely new exciting way while European and Americans are now playing catch up
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Western automakers should listen more in their loyal buyers form most world because they aren’t same Chinese car buyers testes.
Seriously, not many people from most world want their cars just like moveable iPads, I mean not many wanting their cars with less buttons and all things in touch screen, not all want fancy techs with boring driving.
RandomflyerOTR@reddit
What we really need back to compete are cheaper cars that look good. Just bring back 70's cars, improve the safety tech, remove the ipads in modern interiors, and boom, easy win
dabocx@reddit
70s cars would never pass modern safety standards. The moment you redesign them to improve safety they aren’t 70s cars.
RandomflyerOTR@reddit
It has been 46 years since the 70's, surely we have come up with technology that can allow them to keep their looks while improving safety? I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying
Elvis1404@reddit
You can improve safety, but you can't make them as safe or aerodynamic as modern cars (especially for pedestrians)
Perth_R34@reddit
One of the reason the Chinese are doing so well is because of the modern interiors with huge screens.
We have heaps in Australia, and consumers love them!
70s designs were mostly shit in my opinion
RandomflyerOTR@reddit
That's fair, some of the late 70s designs were questionable. I think I'm just getting old because the huge screens disgust me and I'd much rather have analogue stuff lool. I guess you guys would have the most considering the fact that China is so close. Canada is next I believe, where I am
The_Mcgriddler@reddit
Consumers should be able to purchase the best cars. I don't feel bad for corporations. Compete or die.
MartiniPolice21@reddit
"But they're Chinese, they're incredibly low quality" and then they've reduced their own quality that low (or lower in some cases) while keeping their prices the same (or higher in some cases)
Was talking to a friend and they were wondering why Jaecoo is doing so well in the UK, and it's basically down to it being a £30k car that costs £30k, competing against a bunch of £30k cars that cost £45k+
ikilledtupac@reddit
US car industry is mostly a way to scam tax money for shareholders from what I can tell
artytank@reddit
Bloat, plain and simple.
Too many regulations, too expensive, too many features, too many bad dealers.
Low_Succotash5073@reddit
Ima keep it real Chairman Xi, keep the cars coming
HispaniaRacingTeam@reddit
I mean it's not like they've had such strong government supported competition before
It's kinda like when Europe invaded the US, or Japan both the US and EU, except the vehicles are almost immediately actually on par or better than the competition
KingMario05@reddit
The Chinese are coming, and in some cases, are already here. Just like Japan and Korea, the West (plus those two) needs to learn how to compete with them on equal footing. You can't keep them out forever, especially with Geely already having facilities in South Carolina, Belgium, and Sweden... via Volvo.
Laugh at Stellantis all you want. But with their Dongfeng and Leapmotor JVs, at least they're trying to get ahead of the wave and learn it's secrets. Expect more of those real soon.
Perth_R34@reddit
The Chinese are winning here in Australia, and their cars are bloody brilliant!
Maximilianne@reddit
For better or worse it feels like the Chinese market is more dynamic in that flops get punished with low sales,but on the plus side that sends clear signals on what to change, whereas it does feel like in west you can release a great car or a shitty car and you kinda get a normalish amount of sales either way
Ray1340@reddit
Most people only look at the price. I hope the quality is good, the safety of everyone on the road should be a priority.
AudioHooligan@reddit
Good. The domestic markets need a kick in the ass.
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