Realistic Aircraft Options for a Family of 7? Fast-ish and Economical-ish
Posted by TheChillBohemian@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 235 comments
I’m a private pilot starting to think seriously about aircraft ownership again within the next couple of years. My wife and I will soon have five kids, so the full-family mission would be 7 people total.
I realize this is where the words “economical,” “fast,” and “family of 7” start fighting each other in the parking lot.
I’m not expecting turbine performance or magic operating costs. I’m just trying to understand what the most realistic piston options are before the mission pushes into “just buy a PC-12” territory.
Current aircraft I’ve been considering/researching:
- PA-32-300 Cherokee Six, especially if it has the 7th seat
- Piper Lance / Saratoga variants, though I realize many are practically 6-seat airplanes
- Cessna 207, though I’m not especially excited about it
- Seneca II/III
- Navajo/Chieftain, though I know operating costs jump substantially
- Maybe other options I’m missing
Typical mission would be regional Midwest trips, mostly from Kansas, with some business/personal travel mixed in. I’d like something reasonably fast, but useful load and safety probably matter more than speed. I’m also aware that as the kids grow, a 7-seat piston single may become less realistic.
For those who have owned or flown these aircraft:
- What would you realistically recommend for a family of 7?
- Is the Cherokee Six 300 with the 7th seat actually practical, or is it more of a “small kids only” solution?
- Are there Saratoga/Lance variants that truly work as 7-place airplanes, or should I mainly focus on older Cherokee Six models?
- At what point does it make more sense to stop pretending and look at twins like a Navajo/Chieftain?
- Any aircraft I should be considering that I’m missing?
I’m trying to separate “technically has 7 seats” from “actually useful for a family.” Appreciate any real-world experience.
Dbeaves@reddit
Getting anything you want insured will be extremely expensive or impossible. This is also when private pilots bite off more than they can chew and kill themselves and their entire families. Like the pickle ball guy a few weeks ago. Just enjoy being a private pilot, build experience, and then worry about bigger and faster planes
ThinkDeepSpeakSoft@reddit
I’d say get a good efficient and fast airplane that works for you and your business mission then look into rental or even charter for the times you want to take the whole family…or fly commercial. Heck you could maybe buy into a fractional ownership of something that is in a leaseback program.
As others have said, fitting the whole fam damily into something just to make it work will likely not give them a great experience.
My wife is not a huge fan of flying GA. But, I bought into a Cirrus and she actually loves it. She turns on the AC, leans her seat back, and listens to podcasts while I fly. It’s like riding in a car for her. With that same airplane, I grabbed two of my adult sons, flew over to Steamboat Springs, and went skiing for the day. They loved it. Took my wife, daughter, and two of her friends to Sedona. They loved it.
Can I get my entire family in it? Not a chance. I have five adult kids. But, I can use it for my own missions and take some of them along for ‘fun flights with dad’. They love it.
Santos_Dumont@reddit
Having bought the plane that the kids grew out of, and also having 7 kids, hear me out. You want to buy a two seat RV.
Actually traveling anywhere in an unpressurized airplane is miserable.
My older kids flying experience is being crammed in the back of a Mooney and now they HATE flying. Don’t make that into your kids’ flying experience or you’ll have 5 kids that also HATE flying.
Share your hobby with them. It is much better to only have one other seat so your trips in the plane become meaningful and memorable as a trip with dad where they did some cool shit.
AutomagicJackelope@reddit
Just wait until you can get a turbine in the RV....
Santos_Dumont@reddit
I think an electric motor will be more realistic for a RV than turbine in my lifetime.
AutomagicJackelope@reddit
There's already a 200hp prototype by some guys out of Australia if I remember correctly.
Santos_Dumont@reddit
They designed it on the computer but haven’t produced a prototype and don’t have the funds to. They are currently trying to sell the company..
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
This might actually be one of the most useful comments, and kind of where my head is going; at least until I can afford a turbine.
Ok-Skill8583@reddit
What the hell do you do where you are planning to be able to afford a turbine someday?
av8_4fun@reddit
Semi agree, I'd get a 4 seat though but same reason. See how often it realistically doesn't fit the mission profile.
My kids lived in my plane since they were in car seats hoping I could share my passion. Now they are grown and completely apathetic about aviation.
I have a grandson now that is showing some interest so there is still hope 😉
AIRdomination@reddit
I second that opinion. You don’t want to cram your kids into his or they will hate it. This has unfortunately become my distaste for road trips for the same reason.
appenz@reddit
It may depend on the plane. My kids are perfectly fine with the PC-12 (as long as Starlink is working - if not, that changes everything of course).
imapilotaz@reddit
Come on man. Theyre saying not to jam 7 into a navajo type thing... a pc12 is a midbody executive, pressurized turboprop.
Theres no kid saying "i hated my experience flying in our private jet... i never want to fly"
UziWitDaHighTops@reddit
For real. I’m happy in anything bigger than a Van’s RV-12. Fly economy on American then try to complain about a PC-12. Some people have never faced adversity and it shows.
qwerty365@reddit
my lived experience, kids beg to not fly.... we have had a few good trips but the lift is enormous.
They are getting too heavy and cut in to my fuel anyhow.
Such_Ad6350@reddit
I think the answer is more like stop pretending that you’re ever going to fly together as a family of seven.
EntranceEither7768@reddit
Cessna citation
av8_4fun@reddit
Phantom missions are real. Sounds good in theory but not reality.
I once bought a lance so I could fly my family on vacation trips. Hah! Happened twice.
Easily 85% of our trips were my wife and I and 4 empty seats. Inflexible schedules and wx were the most frequent failure of best laid plans. "Time to spare, go by air!"
If you have a budget, you can't afford a cabin class turboprop, what your mission describes. You'll easily spend your entire acquisition budget in 1-2 years on ins,mx,hangar,recurrent training if the plane never starts.
I've owned/partnered 5 planes. My faves for usability/cost is the 182 and for speed/cost my BE35. Both are cheap to keep, available parts/mechanics/upgrades, reasonable insurance.
If you absolutely, positively need 6 seats PA32s are an option if you like flying a dump truck. If it fits, it flies, slow and thirsty.
Small twins are in the mix but 12 cyls, 24 plugs, 4 mags, 2 governors $$$. Ins/hangar/handling fees are all more expensive too.
Get an everyday utility plane and charter for those one off trips or get rich friends that will loan you their plane/pilot.
KNSE916@reddit
King air c90?
stuck_inmissouri@reddit
Seats don’t equal capacity. If you want to carry a family of 7, and all their shit, you’re buying a Transit 360.
sprayed150@reddit
A chieftain Navajo could do it. I brought 7 pax back today on a run from the Bahamas with their bags and a dog without a problem. The only issue with the ho is it drinks fuel. I get like 38gal/hr burn at 7500ft 31in/2200rpm ROP for 175ish TAS. But it’s also a loud plane and it’s a lot of plane for someone that’s prob going to use it 6 times a year.
It’s got 4hrs or so endurance depending on the configuration, ours seats 7 pax+ pilot and have a rear shelf seat too, and has 3320lbs useful load.
FlyingPhenom@reddit
Problem is theyre becoming parts orphans. Vacuum pumps and specifically the T fitting for deice boots are getting really hard to find.
But absolutely love that plane otherwise.
sprayed150@reddit
Yea. We have a couple, I fly a chieftian daily and we have a panther II also. I’ve got like 800hrs in the plane in the last year and I genuinely like flying this pig. I’m going to miss it when I move on, not like I miss flying the supercub, but I’ll still miss it.
FlyingPhenom@reddit
Really wish id had a chance to fly a Panther 2. We were supposed to pick one up but that never materialized.
Do yours have the BLR STCs?
sprayed150@reddit
the vortex generators? ours has VG's with stall fences and we have the wingtip extensions on it, its got the cockpit door and inner gear door removed stc.
the chieftian i fly has the intercooler stcs
Initial3882@reddit
What kind of TAS do you see in the panther? I fly a panther and I don’t see nearly that good of performance. Might get 500-750fpm loaded and TAS like 164 at 31/2200
stuck_inmissouri@reddit
This. I have a couple dozen hours in a 340 and 414. Great haulers and absolutely loved flying it. There’s a reason they can be had “cheap”. They cost a ton to keep flying and haven’t been made in 30+ years. No amount of modern avionics will fix the potential pitfalls.
For the kind of money you’re spending to maintain that airplane, I’d buy a 4 place for the business flying and a membership with jetlinx or a block of time with a reputable 135 and let someone else deal with the flying when you’re traveling with the family.
Difficult_Spring8058@reddit
Shit I thought “Transit 360” was a real plane. I was like that sounds real believable 😭
TraxenT-TR@reddit
If he’s looking at airplanes I think he can squeeze the budget for a Mercedes sprinter with all the works.
FerretWithASpork@reddit
That's gonna be super tight with 7 people. Bro needs a super C or class A.
Jolly_Line@reddit
Fine, two sprinters. Still ahead on budget.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
NV3500
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
My Honda Odyssey is working just fine for the moment 😉
Number1atp@reddit
Delta or United.
dougmcclean@reddit
Or only go places you can take two trips on the way out and two on the way back.
But then you still have to play fox/chicken/grain.
Number1atp@reddit
The problem is that mom and dad will be on board without all the kids. Losing one is bad enough. You don’t want to leave kids parentless.
dougmcclean@reddit
Sounds like they need two 6 seaters and for mom to get her ticket.
SpartanDoubleZero@reddit
Hope he doesn’t bring a guitar if they fly united!!
400Volts@reddit
The mission pushed into "just by a PC-12" 2 kids ago. If your $300k budget is a hard cap, then I'd do an RV instead. $300k is not a lot of plane, but it is a TON of RV
VFRintoIMC@reddit
Who wouldn’t be excited about the 207?
jimngo@reddit
If you have this kind of money, Reddit is not where I would start, lol...
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Fair point, but the purpose of the post was not to replace a broker. I was trying to sanity-check whether there was a realistic piston option that could fill a 2-to-3-year gap before eventually moving toward turbine territory.
Based on the comments, it sounds like the answer is mostly no, at least not cleanly for a family of seven.
Also, the aircraft I asked about aren’t exactly “rich-guy planes.” A Cherokee Six, Saratoga, 207, or older twin is a very different conversation than shopping PC-12s and King Airs.
Suckatguardpassing@reddit
You don't need Reddit to figure out that 300k isn't even in the neighbourhood of what you need to accomplish what you want.
Standard_Ear_84@reddit
"or older twin" An older twin in the 300k range is the perfect aircraft for a relatively new PPL holder who wants to kill himself and the family.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
A little presumptuous of you. And a bit dramatic.
Standard_Ear_84@reddit
I've seen it. And it's a miracle the pilot walked away from it. The instructors told him to buy a good used Cirrus and build hours first. He bought a twin because the purchase price was a lot lower.
Frosty_Piece7098@reddit
He mentioned 300K, which is enough money until you want more than 4 seats you can fill with enough gas to get you somewhere. Even a big twin is marginal depending on the size of the kids. This is honestly king air and PC12 territory.
GooieGui@reddit
Dude wtf is wrong with Reddit. Man comes here looking for some knowledge from hopefully experienced people in a niche hobby. All he gets is people shitting on him and downvotes. You guys suck.
Suckatguardpassing@reddit
Family of 7 and a 300k budget? It's either OP is shitposting or he's not. If he's not then hopefully he has a friend who can slap some sense in him.
jbaginsfromtheshire@reddit
YOLO, PC-12
skyHawk3613@reddit
Fu*k it! King Air
jbaginsfromtheshire@reddit
Nooo! PC-12!
skyHawk3613@reddit
Citation!
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
777?
skyHawk3613@reddit
Do it!!
Xaver1106@reddit
You need bigger, 747-8!
appenz@reddit
Can confirm that this works great.
It being "economical" is disputed.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
this is where I ask a stranger on reddit if I can fly their PC-12
appenz@reddit
Depends. If you can fly it under the open pilot clause, maybe.
Flyingmoose1234@reddit
What is the open pilot clause on a PC-12?
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
sign me up lol
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
What about two random internet pilots?
schminkles@reddit
Economical is a matter of perspective
RoseRedHillHouse@reddit
Relative to a turbofan with as many seats, it might as well be running on farm waste with its operating costs.
Relative to a PA-32? Go speak to your financial advisor first...
jbaginsfromtheshire@reddit
Prefaced this completely obvious fact with the scientific term of “YOLO”
appenz@reddit
YOLO may indeed be required.
Knifey_Hands@reddit
I keep seeing PC-12 as a “yolo” choice. what in the heck does this mean?
PutOptions@reddit
It means you die in a debtors prison, but it was good while it lasted.
jbaginsfromtheshire@reddit
Just stand up next time you read it.
Jolly_Line@reddit
As Dane Cook said: dream it, you fucking dreamers!
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
I like it!
PC-12@reddit
Agreed.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
One day, I hope!
dynamic_fluid@reddit
Honestly for the mission you’re talking about a PC12 or Cessna Caravan is what meets that requirement.
You’re not going to be able to haul 7 people and their stuff in a piston single.
If you want useful load and safety you want a turbine.
skyHawk3613@reddit
Caravan is too slow. If you’re going single engine, I’d go PC-12
jetpilotdds@reddit
The Piper Chieftain is your ticket, with VGs. You can find them relatively cheap as compared to PC-12, but fuel and maintenance can eat your lunch. I had the Chieftain 20 plus years, consider partners.
Jorfogit@reddit
There is no single engine piston that will carry seven people. You can move up to a Cessna 421, but that’s likely to be the cheapest airplane with realistic capacity.
Fast isn’t even a consideration for this conversation, anyone looking initially for piston singles will find a plane that carries seven people plenty fast.
Cessnateur@reddit
The deHavilland Beaver and Otter will.
UziWitDaHighTops@reddit
Sure it’ll take you 6x as long as commercial but watch this sweet fucking short field takeoff.
OCFlier@reddit
This. There is no piston single that meets your requirements. I wouldn’t put my family in anything less than a 421.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Seems to be the general message, and exactly why I asked the question. I appreciate it!
azbrewcrew@reddit
Check out www.delta.com
MattheiusFrink@reddit
For a family of seven? Plus baggage? A Seneca, maybe but I doubt it. You'll need something a bit beefier. A Malibu mirage, a tbm, or a cessna 400 series. Maybe a C207? If you absolutely must lose your mind, a 208 or a King Air 90.
GA A&P/IA here, I work with these aircraft on an intimate level.
650_driver@reddit
7 people and bags on an airplane is a lot. Although it may have enough seats you probably won’t make weight and balance without a significant hit to your fuel load. Go ahead and get a Falcon 50….
jcram75@reddit
Cessna Caravan with ease
The_Daviator@reddit
Just buy into Planesense or some other fractional ownership program. Fly yourself for fun in your spare time, and let the company take y’all wherever in their plane. It’ll definitely be cheaper than buying the PC-12 or King Air that actually fits the mission requirements you’ve laid out, let alone the instrument rating/multiengine certificate/insurance involved.
flyboy731@reddit
Haven't seen it mentioned here maybe a Tecnam P2012 could meet your needs if you want to go the piston twin route
Puzzleheaded-One-141@reddit
Why not go for something like the vision jet? It can seat 5 people in the back for shorter trips so overall 7, its jet powered, pretty comfortable and safe with its parachute feature, less expensive than PC-12 it seems, and you can use it for short trips to share your hobby with kids while also enjoying flying yourself. Granted that with 7 people, luggage would be a small issue but overall seems like the best option.
holl0918@reddit
Well, there are few planes that can seat 7. Even fewer that can seat 7 and ANY baggage. None that can perform well while doing it and cost 300k or less.
Look at a turbine single such as PC-12s, TBMs, Piper Meridians, or a large twin such as the DA-62 or a King Air.
DanTheAirplaneMan@reddit
For moving this many people I would not consider a piston single. For moving your entire family I wouldn't risk it on single pilot PPL either. Realistically you want atleast a PC-12, and preferably a professional pilot with you.
Have you considered reaching out to a 135 PC-12 operator? With $300k you could buy a significant number of hours, and probably also pay to go through their training program. You could probably find a company that would let you specifically fly as SIC but only for your family, if you paid for the hours. Estimate ~5k per hour.
You could scratch the itch of flying your family, avoid financing a multimillion dollar aircraft, put your family in something pressurized/faster, and increase your safety margin quite a bit.
Avi8tor_Zeus@reddit
I would find 3 others with a 300k budget and go King Air 200 if airlines is not an option. 7 first class tickets probably cheaper than operating cost. I agree not going to find a safe single for that payload it’s gonna be multi- engine at minimum and turbine PC12 single. I got a ton of king air time and noticed the real decent in TradeAPlane going to cost you north of 1 mil.
GrabtharsHumber@reddit
Seriously, for the mission profile you describe, you need a Cessna 208 Caravan.
Either that, or a reduced mission profile.
weech@reddit
One of the children must be sacrificed for the greater good
loyolacub68@reddit
How much is a kid worth these days? Big plane going to be expensive.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Starting to look like an initial investment of about $4 Million.
altytwo_jennifer@reddit
Yes but how much is the aircraft? ./rimshot.mp3
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
https://youtu.be/GDXYzUlv0S8
Neither_Cap6958@reddit
Kodiak might be better in this case.
AdAdministrative5330@reddit
Two planes
flubbachany@reddit
G6
KJ3040@reddit
Epic, C208, PC12, Cabin cruiser twin. Everything you named will get you killed.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
This is exactly why I asked the question. I appreciate the insight. I was looking to fill a 2 to 3 year gap before buying my next plane, but perhaps I need to go big or go home which may take a bit longer. Those extra seats sure aren't free.
southern-springs@reddit
Will you be able to get insured in your next plane?
I would buy something that you can build total time in but also help you get the minimums you’ll need if you decided to go turbine (single, multi or jet.)
For all three they will want to complex time, and if you think a turbine-multi is in the future, get a Baron or a Seneca.
And of course they will also want to see turbine time.
And you will want time and experience flying cross country in a multitude of scenarios before consistently putting your family of six in the back and one next to you.
appenz@reddit
I learned in a C172, flew an SR22T for about 6 years and now the PC-12. You need about 800 hours before you are insurable in a PC-12. You also need transition training, 4-day annual recurrent training and \~100h worth of mentor pilot time. If you think of it as a journey, it's very doable. In the next 3 years, it is likely not.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Very doable. Maybe not 3 years, but not too far out. By then, though, we'll probably have a family of 13 by the way things are going.
Jolly_Line@reddit
Epic doesn’t even do it. It’s a six-place.
KJ3040@reddit
Some of the older ones have a little Jumpseat behind the copilots chair
Nnumber@reddit
Cessna 414. Cessna 421. Cessna 402. All can seat 8 (certain 414 configs). But good luck getting insured as a PPL. Navajo. Queen air. B18. Some T-bone variants. SETP. You’re essentially modeling being cape air.
You also need to think about your useful load anticipating 7 adults. The kids will grow and won’t stop for a while.
You’re going to need some considerable experience to consider taking a family of 7… anywhere.
Soggy_Vast230@reddit
Yea, insurance will be the biggest problem for OP. You will have to fly with an ATP in the right seat at all times who has a good amount of time in type, which pushes your required number of seats to… 8. Gonna be tight.
Soggy_Vast230@reddit
Twin Cessna is always the answer.
414 or 421 with the micro VG kit is probably the best fit for you.
I fly 402’s with the vg kit for work. I weigh 280 lbs and can take 9 medium sized pax with bags and 500 lbs of fuel or so. With 7 you can probably take 7-800 lbs of gas no problems.
Timrf79@reddit
I would consider a Kodiak or Caravan
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Not a bad idea. Might be the most realistic in the short-term.
ybitz@reddit
What is your budget?
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Approximately $300K.
sandalsabsentsocks@reddit
I hope you mean per year.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Not yet... Give me 2-3 years.
quietflyr@reddit
Single engine piston that would fit the mission is, surprisingly, the Douglas AD-5 Skyraider. Side by side cockpit, space for up to 10 passengers (12 occupants total). It's not jet fast, but like 180 knots is still moving.
Economocal? Well probably not considering it has an R-3350 under the cowl.
Tailwheel might raise insurance prices a little bit.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Interesting idea. If my family ever needs to invade a small country, I'll consider it.
greenbluelc@reddit
I've seen owners buy the wrong plane falling for the price per seat rather than the realistic price per pound of payload. If you max out your seats, chances are you are already close to MTOW, family will have to travel with a backpack or a 2 day weekender bag. No coolers, short trips and fuel stops every hour or so. Making more cycles every time you fly.
At that weight I wouldn't consider anything other than a turbine. Caravan or Kodiak, I'd rather get there slow, but being confident about the heavy lifting capability.
bfro8304@reddit
Gipps Airvan
Cali_Mark@reddit
B200. Enough room for bags, the dog and the Nanny.
Vincent-the-great@reddit
You are insane for trusting your entire bloodline in anything but a turbine. Even a twin piston is more dangerous in the right hands.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
I hadn't considered that. Ultimately, I would like a turbine, and could possibly, in the next 5 years, afford one. I was looking for something $300K-ish without the maintenance cost of a twin.
However, the more I read here, it seems twin or turbine may be the way to go. In which case, I may buy something smaller now just to build time, and look to fulfill the mission later.
x4457@reddit
You’re flat out not doing this in a piston single. Not happening.
Buy a Bonanza now and fly some of the family some of the time, then step up into a King Air when you have the money to do so.
stevecostello@reddit
One needs to be quite wealthy to step up into a King Air, not even considering acquisition costs. Annual fixed costs *start* at $65K and can get over $300K pretty easily. Variable costs will run from $1,000 per hour to over $2,000.
The low end of those costs would be for a C90, which will not fit the existing mission profile of 7 people (plus bags).
x4457@reddit
I’m aware. I know exactly what I was suggesting, I’ve done the same math and come to the same conclusions.
stevecostello@reddit
Sorry. Didn't mean to imply you weren't aware. More making it obvious for OP.
xeon1@reddit
This
GAU8Avenger@reddit
AN-2 check mate atheists
Vincent-the-great@reddit
Driving would be faster 😂😂
MrPetter@reddit
FWIW, insurance and operating costs dwarf the purchase price of a turbine. As someone who owns two turbines and a piston aircraft, you better have really deep pockets. Like I can fly my whole family business class to Hawaii for the cost of an hour in one of my turbines deep.
Wilbur_Redenbacher@reddit
Hah, exactly what I was going to say. If I’m hauling my entire family, I’m eliminating as many safety variables as I can. Give me a Cirrus or a Turboprop. Even then, you better stay competent in the airplane and don’t be stupid. Don’t end up as a blancolirio debrief.
RogLatimer118@reddit
Fly commercial. Even first class with those kind of funds.
appenz@reddit
100% agreed.
That_Soup4445@reddit
If you’re gonna fly something dangerous you gotta bring them all. Can’t leave a lonely orphan.
(Sarcasm obviously)
Flyinace2000@reddit
Some needs to cash in the life insurance and become batman.
Actual_Environment_7@reddit
Look at a Beech 18.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
That would certainly do it.
ProtestPoop@reddit
Its not as crazy as it sounds. I have an H18 conventional gear. Disclaimer : I'm an airline pilot with an IA and barn on a farm to store it, so my MX costs, hanger fees, insurance and the like I cannot advise on. I do know hanger can be a pain point because the wings are just over 50ft, making it too big to fit a t hanger.
Upside : You can get a clean 18 with an interior for 200k, and a very nice one for 300k. With the H18 upgross from the factory it we can fit full fuel (318 gal) 6 adults and stuff the cargo easy. Empty is 6.6k lbs and gross is 9.9k (an honest 9.9, not the 10.2 bullshit some of the stcs claim to make the cargo dogs fly heavy) You can budget 230lbs a head for all 6 people with full fuel, and we have a 7th seat that we pulled. Weight and balance just isn't ever an issue. We are operating out of a 2300ft grass strip, but 3k or so asphalt is a good place to start. With full tanks I don't even bother to flight plan for anything less than 800nm. 1000+ is easy. Plan 36-40 gal an hour and 145 - 160kts true between 8 - 11k (the speed depends in the model, my H18 with small tires is about 37 gal @ 155 true) Assuming you can find an IA willing to touch round motors (they aren't that special from a MX standpoint) maintenance is on par with a Baron. From a systems complexity it's on par with a Baron as well.
Middle of the road : Although we can pretty much just pull it out of the hanger and fly it, there is some extra steps. Nothing major though. Most parts are available, lots of new old stock out there, just need a bit of networking. There are still R985 overhaul shops out there. I think the going rate is 85k or so for an overhaul. Ask me next year and I'll know for sure lol.
Downsides : Its a multi tailwheel. Its one of the most honest flying planes out I've flown. I tell people it flies like it looks, a baby airliner from the 40s. However that also means you NEED to keep current, particularly single engine work.
Cessnateur@reddit
Purely out of curiosity, and I completely understand if you'd prefer not to say, what is your hull value, and what is your annual premium?
ProtestPoop@reddit
No worries! 7k premium, 250k hull. 4 listed pilots, all high time airline types.
Cessnateur@reddit
Such a fascinating glimpse into ownership of something truly special. Thanks for all the info!
Actual_Environment_7@reddit
Wow, I really appreciate the write-up. I love reading how certain old planes are to live with.
350RDriver@reddit
That would do it but there's a reason Beech 18s don't cost much to buy... They cost quite a bit to run.
Add to that that it's a design that predates WWII and is a bit of a handful and you're looking at a quick way to get yourself into trouble if you're not proficient in both taildraggers and twins.
ProtestPoop@reddit
I'll say the maintenance cost isn't that different to a baron. Most of the increase in operating cost is fuel burn, but with that comes with a large increase in carrying capacity and some pretty reasonable short field performance, and possibly hanger depending on what is available. Its not a totally unreasonable tradeoff. There are plenty of trike 18s, so that can take some of the issues out. I personally believe bad rep from 18s is either from pushing xwind limits on conventional gear 18s on asphalt (you can get away with murder on grass) and / or cargo dogs flying them way over gross. I joke it's the poor mans king air, but with more ramp presence.
vtjohnhurt@reddit
Take your wife on an overnight XC flight in a Cessna. Is she eager to go again?
nyc2pit@reddit
My wife loves our Saratoga. Just flew it from the Northeast to Texas and back over 5 days.
39509835@reddit
Hear me out. Mitsubishi MU-2
nyc2pit@reddit
I'm listening.
Great plane, just an abysmal safety record. I hear that's gotten better though with the dedicated training requirements.
thegolfpilot@reddit
414 or 421 will do what you want and older one in good condition will be well within your budget. Figure $850/hr and be ready for random $30-100k repairs at random
Dangerous_Mud4749@reddit
Twin engine aircraft are extremely dangerous in the hands of recreational pilots. Not because "recreational stupid" or anything silly. Because "twin = extremely unforgiving". You need to fly very regularly and in a very disciplined way to be ready for asymmetric flight at a critical time.
I recommend you do not look at piston twins for this reason.
A single engine turbine aircraft is more reliable, easier to fly, and more forgiving of out-of-practice pilots, than a twin piston.
AdParticular3832@reddit
Realistic airplane is an oxymoron
Cessnateur@reddit
Not necessarily.
bigbadcrusher@reddit
Pay for the wife to get her license, then buy 2 172’s
VanDenBroeck@reddit
You did it wrong. First buy an airplane that you love and based on the seating capacity / payload, decide on how many kids to have. I believe this is mentioned in the PHAK.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
I really tried. Unfortunately, there is another hobby I love possibly more than aviation...
VanDenBroeck@reddit
Yeah, me too. But protective gear is available. lol
RecentAmbition3081@reddit
Single with 7? Nope. Navajo
ryharv@reddit
Antonov an-2. I know a family of 7 that flies one around
EngineerFly@reddit
First i suggest you make sure your family are ALL willing to fly in a hot, bumpy, crowded little airplane. Take four at a time in a rented 182 or Cherokee. Go somewhere 3 hours away. See how happy they are to get back in for the return trip.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Solid point. We flew a great deal XC as a family of five in a 172 a few years ago, and the kids loved it. But yes, seven people is obviously a different mission.
EngineerFly@reddit
Oh, that’s a pretty good basis, then. I’ve crossed the US several times in a fairly roomy twin, with just three of us and luggage, and neither my wife nor my daughter look forward to the next.
ltcterry@reddit
Delta. First class. Pay for it on a Delta Skymiles card. Safer. Faster. Cheaper.
It's going to be a long, long time before you have the skills to be doing what you are thinking of.
Consider a PC-12 and let a good Part 135 manage it for you. Then they provide a pilot when you need to go somewhere. Let Uncle Sam slightly subsidize your airplane ownership. You could get checked out in the airplane and fly it with their (instructor) pilot in the right seat.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
I get that commercial is cheaper and safer. But if that were the only point, none of us would own or fly GA aircraft.
I was asking whether there’s a realistic owner-flown piston option around $300K that could bridge a gap for a few years. A managed PC-12 is a totally different conversation.
Neither_Extension895@reddit
Most people who own GA aircraft do not use them as an alternative to commercial air travel, especially not for their large families. They're fun toys, using them for utility purposes where you have to hit schedules is how you kill yourself in conditions where you shouldn't have taken off.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
if safety is a concern, spend the 15-20k to get your wife (or a kid!) rated. a second set of eyes adds a ton of safety, not to mention in the extremely rare case of you popping off halfway into a flight!
this is probably the biggest additional safety factor you can get for 20k, tbh. a chute is a close 2nd but would cost way more. really, they don't necessarily need to actually get rated, but if they at least have gotten to solo level, understand the basics of the radio, the aircraft, and confining the crash to the airport environment, they're likely to add a ton of safety!
dyljcks@reddit
Get everyone their own ultralight. Is it fast? No. Does it make sense? Also no
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
that would be fucking crazy if you were at a family reunion and suddenly your aunt/uncle/five cousins just swarm down into the yard in formation
so much clout. do it OP
pattern_altitude@reddit
Does it make less sense than 7 people in most/all of these options? Once again, no!
SupraJames@reddit
I was going to suggest a couple of Grumman Tigers but one each sounds much more fun. Be your own display team too
Neither_Extension895@reddit
The correct fast reliable aircraft for your family's travel is a boeing 737 or a320.
IdahoAirplanes@reddit
Have your wife get her PPL and get matching 4 seaters.
PP4life@reddit
Had to scroll a bit to find this option. Take my upvote!
CommuterType@reddit
Buy first class airline tickets. It will be much safer and cost less than buying an airplane to carry your entire family
redditburner_5000@reddit
At that price point, you're in cabin twin territory if you want a plane that can actually go anywhere with seven people and their stuff.
Navajos are available for well under $300k. Operating is a different story. I'd bet you're upwards of $500/hr all-in, and that might be low. Insurance would be eye-wateringly expensive as a low time PPL, if you can even get it.
NYPuppers@reddit
Delta 737
Dry-Horror-4188@reddit
After owning a Plane for over 23 years, I am amazed at what the wishes are for newer pilots. To fly safely with that much weight you will probably need a Twin, C208 not a bad option, or a PC-12. After acquisition costs you are going to need to factor in Cost of ownership....maintenance, storage, fuel, and insurance. For those birds, most likely you will need a IR which is more $$, and a probably a type rating.
Twins equal twice the maintenance.
I have a suggestion, but I am sure it won't be popular. You could just put part of your family up for adoption. The amount of money you save on child care would help you step into a bigger preforming bird.
LaloMcNombres@reddit
DC-3
hobbesmaster@reddit
Nah, he needs an AN-2! There are a couple registered for the US, one on floats even appears to be for sale right now! However its listed for 2.4mil and was converted to a turboprop.
LaloMcNombres@reddit
Too bad this guy is poor. He only has a $300k budget!
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
I mean.. PC-12 if you have the money. lol
Tired_Regional_Rat@reddit
The best option here is "airline tickets"
Fulcrum58@reddit
7 people on a piston single is crazy lol. Just get a 182 and fly commercial when you gotta take the whole fam
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Fair, and that may be the practical answer. But “just fly commercial” kind of misses the point of aircraft ownership. Anyone can fly commercial.
Flylow111@reddit
GA is a passion project and is sometimes great for practicality. It is virtually always cheaper, more reliable, and especially safer to fly commercial.
There will be times that you take commercial regardless due to weather, maintenance, mission, or just really needing to get there and not having the option to say no go.
phxcobraz@reddit
I've owned a Mooney for 5yrs. I can fit my whole family(I only have 1 kid) in my aircraft. Yet we still fly commercial all the time. Flying to the other side of the country or to a large city is often still cheaper and MUCH quicker than flying my own airplane. Not having to deal with a screaming kid, a wife who hates the bumps, getting stuck somewhere because we diverted due to low ceilings below mins, etc.
Sure it adds a lot of flexibility, and for shorter hops or rural areas/mountain towns I can get there 1/3 faster than driving, and even airlines don't go there. But 90% of the time it's just me flying solo or with a buddy.
Until you are at PC12 experience and money, it really is going to be more a hassle than it's worth. And having sat in a PC12, 5 people in the back is still kinda crammed.
Go buy something fun you can take 1 or 2 kids with, and build some hours in that.
redvette01@reddit
pc-12 is the aircraft everyone will fit comfortably, you will be able to take enough fuel to actually go somewhere, relatively fast, also seats don’t equal capacity is not just a piston problem, I also fly a phenom 100, there is an option for a 7th seat, with all seats occupied you wouldn’t be able to put enough fuel to go anywhere.
14Three8@reddit
Once those kids get big, you’ll be severely limited on range. I drive a Saratoga on the weekends. If I fill the tanks full to tanker some fuel to Key West to save the boss some change, we only have weight to fill 3 seats.
Get a turbine and take care of it. A caravan or Kodiak runs cheaper than a pc-12 and typically has less systems to run up your maintenance and insurance bill.
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
See you in the news lol
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Easy.... 😅
HotRecommendation283@reddit
7 seat bloodline ended
ltcterry@reddit
Yikes.
Fight_Or_Flight_FL@reddit
I would get an economical but fast-ish plane like a Mooney. Some of your kids can travel with Mom to destination and some travel with you. I have a 4 seater, two young kids. My wife travels with one kid, I fly with the other kid and the dog. Swap kids on the return. It's worked out so far the last few years.
phlflyguy@reddit
When you’re ready to step up to the kind of plane that fits your mission people here are suggesting, you’ll need a lot of time for an insurance company to consider insuring the plane you end up buying.
When you get to the 200 hour level and comfortable/proficient in a single piston as a private + instrument pilot, look into getting a docile twin like Seminole or Seneca to build multi time (without the whole family). Then start looking at advanced options and talk to an insurance broker.
Funny thing in aviation, unlike cars you’re not legally required to have insurance. But if you’re financing a plane, the bank will require it.
Milktoast27@reddit
We need to find you a new hobby before the mission turns into family of 8. Have you tried golf?
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Why do you think I'm shopping for an airplane? 😅
SkinnyWheel1357@reddit
Beech 18.
tmsteen@reddit
Same position with family size. I have accepted that I won’t be flying the whole family until I have unit money for something more performant and safer (PC-12 territory). Honestly though, the chaos of that many kids would make me feel unsafe. Just flying with 2 young kids at a time right now is nearly too much between safety, trying to teach them something, and just plain having fun and enjoying the moment.
Now, a small turbine partnership for something like this would be about perfect.
Goatdaddy1@reddit
The 7th seat in a cherokee six is gonna be hard to find. ive never seen one. also, its very narrow so not really a realistic 7th seat. Ive looked, have a cherokee six.
arnoha@reddit
I've flown one. With seven aboard even! But...
That was with four adults and two children and two babies. No luggage. The flight was short, less than two hours.
The circumstances where you can use all seven seats is rare. The middle row is also a challenge. The seven seat version is straight seated only (no club seating). Because of the middle seat, you cannot access the middle row from the rear door. That means five people need to load from the front right door.
I now own a fixed-gear Saratoga. I have a family of five. It's a perfect match. 1500 lbs. useful means I can fly the family with full tanks and have room for luggage. This is what I'd pay attention to, useful. 275-300 lbs. per person is about right as a minimum.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
This is all great information. Thanks!
apemandude99@reddit
My family used to have a g550, it was comfortable for medium distance, longer distances it starts to feel cramped. Be careful though, my dad always complained about what a logistical nightmare it was. We just use net jets now, more convenient.
MungaMike@reddit
Man, this is a tough one. First check your ego and get your instrument rating. Second, as your kids get older, they get heavier. None of your airplane examples really work long term. The Cherokee 6 could for a bit, or the Lance maybe. Navajo could, but good luck keeping it flying regularly. All the others you mention are an absolute NO. Like others have said, you need turbine options and the training to go with it.
chili_dippin_it@reddit
Number of seats ≠ number of passengers if you want to have any sort of reasonable range without going over MTOW. I plan on filling 60-75% of my seats under normal circumstances to stay away from the "if it fits, it ships" mentality.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
That seems like a solid policy. At this point, I feel like I need to buy something smaller to keep my chops up and save for the big guns for about 3 to 5 years. This was the whole reason for the post, so I appreciate your input!
chili_dippin_it@reddit
To make sure and set your expectations clearly - I have a C90 King Air, excluding the pilot, it has 7 available belted seats and winglockers for additional baggage volume. I'm never putting more than 4 adult passengers with bags in there and keeping it within limits if we need to go over 500nm with reserves. Fortunately with just me, the wife, the dog, and bags, we top it off and let her rip.
taint_tattoo@reddit
The TBM 940 is a 6+1.
The math may not math, depending upon passenger and baggage weight.
stevecostello@reddit
No mention of a budget?
You're not going to find anything that fits this mission that isn't at least a C208. If you HAVE to have piston, you are definitely into twin category, otherwise you are cutting your W/B way too close.
Also... if you really are PPL and want to fly your family, you really need to get your instrument rating.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Around $300K. And yes, instrument rating is in the works.
nlbair22@reddit
Even a Phenom 300 would be tight lol. Probably need to look into a PC24 if single pilot stuff is your goal. If SP isn’t a big deal then an XLS or an older Legacy might work
dtphantom@reddit
The most realistic option in this situation is to go back in time and get the snip snip after 3 kids.
PILOT9000@reddit
A piston airplane, especially one with a single piston engine, will not come anywhere close to meeting your needs.
What is your budget?
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
This is true. I was looking around $300K or less, but we all know the real cost of ownership isn't the price of the airframe. Ultimately, it sounds like I need to wait a bit longer to afford the proper weapon.
SSMDive@reddit
Most GA aircraft are ‘Number of seats -1’
I can’t think of a simple GA plane that is going to realistically carry 7 and bags.
A lot of twins are not going to fill that mission. Even a Barron 58 only holds 6.
Realistically you are looking for a big single engine turboprop (PC12) or even a twin turboprop. An M600 or TBM both only have six seats.
And maybe you can find a plane that will carry 7… But not as grown adults or with much if any luggage.
Based on you being a new pilot and needing 7 seats… I’d suggest a Kodiak 100 or Cessna Caravan. But these are very expensive to buy, expensive to run, and expensive to maintain.
Your best option is to drive.
Schwalbe262Guy@reddit
PC12 is pretty goated
Disastrous-Trash1025@reddit
Diamond da62 but it’s not cheap
CFIgiveaf@reddit
The DA62 has an abysmal useful load. I looked into taking the third row out of ours just to save some weight but it was more involved than we anticipated. 4 adults in that plane was very tight on the weight and balance. With full fuel, I often couldn’t take more than two passengers.
rbuckfly@reddit
What’s your price point? Are you multi rated?
Hot-Dust-5110@reddit
Dry lease a PC-12
btgeekboy@reddit
It’d probably be cheaper for your partner to learn to fly a second plane.
vanillanuttapped@reddit
Buy a King Air and hire a pilot. None of this sounds realistic.
OftenIrrelevant@reddit
I lived in Podunk, AR and thought about buying a plane for my family to travel in, but it was cheaper and safer to uproot and move somewhere in civilization with commercial air service lol
PsyopBjj@reddit
Get an instrument rating first
jglenn9k@reddit
Two more pilots and three 172s. Tear out the rear seats on one to carry all the cargo.
Frosty_Piece7098@reddit
Only plane I’ve flown here is a 207, it flies like a dump truck. I didn’t know you could add a 7th seat (ours had 6). But choose which kid you hate the most to put back there.
I remember at gross weight that thing could barely get to 5,000 feet on a summer day. In the Midwest you are gonna be bumping around down in the heat and everyone is going to hate you.
Honestly, I would just bite the bullet and look for a twin unless you can step to something with a PT6. Will a 414 or 421 fit 7? Pressurization and flying above the bumps would be really nice. I’m looking forward to some of the replies on here.
TheChillBohemian@reddit (OP)
Yeah, 207 is not my cup of tea. Never flown one, but you can kind of see what you described just by looking at the airframe and interior. Before we knew we were having #5, I was considering a pressurized Malibu.
Frosty_Piece7098@reddit
I’d be interested at the operating cost and insurance comparison between a big piston twin and a PT6 single. Sure the Pratt overhaul costs 3-4 times as much but TBO is waaay longer, and you only have one of them. I flew a PC12 for several years and it’s pretty reasonable in the fuel department up in the 20’s, for the load it carries. The 414 I flew gulped 100LL at what I remember to be similar rates for a much smaller plane… and jetA is cheaper. IDK it was over a decade ago so my memories a bit fuzzy. Insurance for a piston twin is not cheap especially without a bunch of multi time, the turbine single would have to be cheaper I would think.
D-Dubya@reddit
Even if you can fit your family of 7 now, they probably won't fit in 5 years or so. Have you done some weight/payload calcs with current and future weights? Do you plan to keep this plane until the kids are adult(ish) sized? There's a big difference between 5 toddlers/preteens and 5 teens/adults.
Also, your not excited by a 207, but a fixed gear PA32 is at the top of the list? LOL...
Add a Beech Twin Bonanza to the list. Older but roomy and and very cool.
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
You are not going to use it as much as you think. Even if such an aircraft of your spec is found. Not without instrument rating and the plane actually being capable of weather. And in reality GA doesn’t work that well for travel just don’t have the experience and training to be really as safe as commercial.
live_drifter@reddit
None of those airplanes minus maybe the Navajo will suit your mission
c402c@reddit
Heavy piston twin (e.g., always breaks machine) or PC-12.
BakerHasHisKitchen@reddit
Those kids will grow up faster than you think where now your mission is 7 adults and bags. No piston single is going to take that much. I would look at turboprops and nothing smaller. Hell even a baby King Air would be a tall order to fill all of that. I regularly fly a 350 with 7-8 pax and it’s perfectly fine, but with more than a bag per person and it gets tight.
IMO, re-evaluate the mission. If 80% of those trips involve not taking everyone, or like you said for business, buy the smaller 4 seat piston and fly commercially when you gotta take everyone.
Computerized-Cash@reddit
Yeah if he’s not taking himself most of the time a Piper Meridian or even an Epic E1000
Agreeable_Move2924@reddit
Useful load may dictate which aircraft are capable of your mission. Estimate weights of your family members 5 years from now.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’m a private pilot starting to think seriously about aircraft ownership again within the next couple of years. My wife and I will soon have five kids, so the full-family mission would be 7 people total.
I realize this is where the words “economical,” “fast,” and “family of 7” start fighting each other in the parking lot.
I’m not expecting turbine performance or magic operating costs. I’m just trying to understand what the most realistic piston options are before the mission pushes into “just buy a PC-12” territory.
Current aircraft I’ve been considering/researching:
Typical mission would be regional Midwest trips, mostly from Kansas, with some business/personal travel mixed in. I’d like something reasonably fast, but useful load and safety probably matter more than speed. I’m also aware that as the kids grow, a 7-seat piston single may become less realistic.
For those who have owned or flown these aircraft:
I’m trying to separate “technically has 7 seats” from “actually useful for a family.” Appreciate any real-world experience.
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