Hot Take: what most people would need is lighter bikes and quality tyres, not more power
Posted by Worried_Document8668@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 61 comments
disclaimer: i know that this is mostly a financial thing, because watts are way cheaper than weight savings, but feel free to discuss anyway. and of course it's a question more interesting to pedal assist riders.
took my new bike out for a 30km work-related round trip today and put down quicker average speeds than on my e-gravel, mostly through a bike that's about half the weight and on narrow, high pressure road tyres.
At the same perceived effort and heartrate i was just way quicker, even on a non-electric bike.
I know upping the power is the simpler part when it comes to e-bikes, but the impact of weight and the matching tyres to the surfaces is just huge.
all the extra motor power and battery cap to support the extra power produces bikes that also get worse mileage out of their watt-hours. so there is probably a pretty distinct line of diminishing returns, just like there is with the cost of weight-savings beyond a certain point.
I feel trimming down and equipping quality rubber for the riding enviroment would produce a lot better bikes for a lot of people. Can keep a good power-to-weight on the bike even with a smaller motor, easier to both handle and carry, better mileage out of the given battery size...
So what's your stance on weight to power and the cost of either?
moist-jeans7016@reddit
I’d encourage everyone who buys a fancy $3k ebike to go ride the same priced fancy carbon gravel/road bike before they purchase.
E-bikes have some great use cases, but the giant moon tires are a slog on pavement no matter the watts.
Choosemyusername@reddit
I don’t even have to pedal my fat bike to get to the legal max 32km/h even on hills.
The fat tires really smooth out the ride and I can get anywhere I need to within a reasonable commuting time from my house. And then back. And that is without adding a bit of pedaling assist to it.
Especially on the dirt roads near me and gravel paths, the fat tires really smooth it out.
snoogins355@reddit
Yes, but what about grocery store shops? Can I carry a few cases of seltzer on my rack and go 20+ mph with traffic?
JAK49@reddit
Do you think most people buying e-bikes are super concerned about rolling resistance or gram counting or weight? I’d argue they get an e-bike specifically so they don’t have to care about any of that. I saw a video of a guy on his fancy road bike and his non-serious bike riding wife was keeping pace with him on her e-gravel bike. And he was joking “oh no, guess I’ll have to bring her along now” but in reality they were both happy as can be. He didn’t have to feel like he was a terrible person for dropping her, she felt great that she got to ride with him now instead of being left behind at home. It was a win-win for all involved.
Denver80211@reddit
There are plenty of ebikes with narrow, light tires. Fat tires give you a softer more forgiving ride but take a ton more effort to push. That's true with any bike.
Worried_Document8668@reddit (OP)
i own a semi-fancy alloy frame/carbon fork light assist e-gravel on 45mm performance semi-slicks(about 18kg equipped) and even that doesn't hold a candle to the carbon roadbike(8,7kg on 30mm road tyres) i now own, as soon as you hit even semi decent asphalt.
that whole riding experience today sparked this thread. The roadbike without assist pretty much rides like the heavier gravel with the motor turned on to low/medium assist.
i bet the jump from a heavy-set and wide tyre e-bike to something lighter with the matching tyres would probably similarly drastic.
Proxy345@reddit
SUVs are everywhere and that's why fat tire ebikes are very popular in the US. Regardless of the ebike brand, just throw a quality pair of $100 fat tires on it and the experience will be so much better from the getgo. No flats, no nothing, just plow over anything on the road, even in heavy rain.
Nova_Hunter@reddit
That's why any e-bike with fat tires is a piece of s*** once the battery's dead because that thing is a tank.
I build my own do it yourself kits on light mountain bikes and take off all unnecessary parts to make it lighter. Plus mountain bikes are just built better than your Chinese assembly frames made out of steel
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
I don't think I've yet to see an ebike with throttle that looked like it would be feasible without power.
I have a Class 3 gravel bike that rides fine without power, and a few times I've commuted to work with power, dropped the battery out for a group ride, then put the battery back in to ride home again.
Choosemyusername@reddit
I built one with a throttle. I barely notice the extra weight of the motor when the battery isn’t on.
Nova_Hunter@reddit
All of my bicycles are but then again none of them are fat tires they're all standard 20 inch by 1.95 or 26x2 just like riding a cruiser and mine have eight or nine gears with large granny mountain clusters so paddling is a non-issue if I have to even up a hill with my tanks
Choosemyusername@reddit
I have a fat bike ebike. What I like about the fat tires is at the higher speeds you get on e-bikes, especially on the kinds of roads and trails around me, smaller tires become bone rattlers.
If you are riding on smooth pavement all the time, by all means, smaller harder tires can be fine. But at a consistent 32km/h it really amplifies the potholes and dirt roads I drive on.
Plus just a little extra battery makes up for the extra weight and drag of fat tire bikes anyways.
BlueSwordM@reddit
But of course.
The better the tires, the higher quality ride would be.
It's why if you look at many of my posts in these bike communities, many of my tires recommendations are just this: get good road tires + TPU tubes, no matter the thickness.
Thin tires (30-32mm)? Get yourself some nice tires and TPU tubes to make it easier to rider and faster.
Mid-size (40-65mm)? Get yourself some nice tires, TPU tubes and maybe go tubeless.
Large-fat (65-100mm+)? Get yourself some nice tires, even if it's difficult to do, and go full on tubeless.
Not, to answer your question, my usual take is that more power is always good, but better use that power efficiently so you can go far and fast.
It's simple to get range and speed increases from higher efficiency, but it sometimes requires higher cost parts, better designs and more thoughts into optimizations.
Denver80211@reddit
If you want to push harder, you push harder. You can do the exact same amount of work on an e-bike. You just go faster. I don't speak for most people. I just speak for myself.
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
That's my commute. It's about 11 miles each way. On a regular bike it's about 45 minutes, and on the ebike it's about 30. I put in the same watts at the same heart rate, but the duration is the variable.
Denver80211@reddit
Yup it flattens the hills. I still get plenty of exercise but I don't want to suffer.
SwiftySanders@reddit
I bought Gazelle and Specialized ebikes for this reason. I dont need to be the fastest. 20mph is plenty for me.
_haha_oh_wow_@reddit
shrugs in steel
thirtynation@reddit
People ride what they desire and what works for them homie. No need to play god or anything.
aversboyeeee@reddit
Exactly, I’ve had grown man yelling at me from across the street, get a real bike. I have a “real bike” but this thing is a blast.
snoogins355@reddit
Do you think he yells at people walking up the escalator? A "take the stairs" everyone type?
aversboyeeee@reddit
Same guy that honks as soon as the light turns green!
aversboyeeee@reddit
Escalates don’t take people jobs, but AI will take yours and then we’ll have to listen to your change of attitude, brah!
spez-is-a-loser@reddit
Nah.. everyone needs more power..
unseenmover@reddit
I ride a 47lbs 500w/85nm, 540wh battery, 11 spd 38 -11/46 kemen suv fitted with 2.35 E 50 rated tires. I dont need more power i want more range if anything.
Vomath@reddit
Worried_Document8668@reddit (OP)
cargo bikes are probably the big exception here. They ned to be as big as they are to do their thing. Here barely anything beats power(especially low end tprque when getting started)
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
There are light-ish cargo bikes, but that's pretty rare.
JohnnyAspec@reddit
Tyres and tyre pressures make a huge difference in my experience
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
On quality tires, the pressure actually makes very little difference. But having lower pressure feels more sluggish and so people tend to opt for putting in more than necessary.
On low quality tires (basically anything that comes on an ebike), a higher pressure matters a bit more because otherwise squishing the tire with each rotation is sapping energy on a thicker walled tire.
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
Good tires and appropriate pressure are some of the easiest ways to buy speed. It makes a massive difference.
I don’t e-bike but Reddit keeps recommending these threads, I suspect because I’m a cyclist, and I find it interesting.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
Counter-point:
JasperJ@reddit
A bike that goes 50mph for 50 miles throttle only *is* a motorcycle. Yes, you want a motorcycle.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
Idk man, a motorcycle can't be pedalled. Not my problem if you want to call an ebike a motorcycle.
Looks like a bike, can ride like a bike, people call it a bike, I ride it where bikes ride, it's a bike.
JasperJ@reddit
50 mph is 80kph in real money. That’s very much a light motorcycle, no matter that you can also pedal it at much lower speeds.
I mean, sure, the categories are evolving, due to the appearance of new tech. But that’s still a light moto, that you’re *not* (just) riding in the manner of a bicycle.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
I'm fine with that, opinions don't stop me from minding my own business and enjoying a grassy field that doesn't bother anyone else.
Another thing I like about Ebikes is that they are silent, unlike motorcycles. I want to be able to go over any terrain and be undetectable at 2am if I choose to ride through neighborhoods and back alleys late at night.
Have a wonderful day!!
starsandmath@reddit
Can you explain what differentiates a "motorcycle" and "a bike that goes 50mph"? I've always drawn the line between bikes/motorcycles based on top speed and requirement to pedal, but it sounds like you draw the line based on another criteria. Aesthetics? Physical size? Engine vs motor?
BadluckyKamy@reddit
He's too cheap to pay for license and insurance at that point nothing to prove
Ok-Yogurt-42@reddit
That's a motorcycle.
PsychologicalTest523@reddit
I have a cheap heavy e-bike and although it’s a pain in the ass to move around, I’m not sure weight would change the efficiency much. If it was half the weight, once you combine my weight it’s like a 15% savings. Mines 750w cause I wanted to stay legal, and honestly it’s plenty.
DoktorLoken@reddit
I don’t agree here when it comes to quality e-bikes. My fancy steel road bike with lightweight wheels and tubeless GP5000s is nimble but it’s still worse to ride for climbing or against a lot of wind.
And it can’t carry 40+ kilos of groceries or other cargo like a real e-bike can. And durability is a huge trade off for ultralight bikes which is a huge factor in bikes being utilitarian mobility devices as opposed to road racing/gravel machines.
bradland@reddit
IMO, that when considered as a conveyance rather than a passtime, there's a definite optimal middle ground that both groups of riders completely miss.
On the one hand, you have traditional cyclists who tend to be weight weenies, spending $1,600 on a crankset to shave 50g off their bike.
On the other hand, you've got range obsessed e-bike buyers who will buy a +100 lb, dual-battery, fat tire behemoth that they couldn't pick up to put on a bus rack if their life depended on it.
Reality is that there is no "most people" and there is no "best" when it comes to e-bikes, because even when generalizing, there are wildly different priorities based on what someone uses their e-bike for.
For example, you mentioned an e-gravel, half-weight, and high-pressure road tires. I'll infer from this that you're riding a bike that is optimized to maximize efficiency. We cannot ignore a couple of incontrovertible facts though:
For the traditional cyclist whose balance of priorities is split between fitness and utility, this type of bike makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. But you're preaching to the choir there. This type of rider isn't out looking at the kind of bike I feel you're making a counterpoint too.
Consider the rider who uses an e-bike as a conveyance to get from point A to point B. This rider chooses an e-bike because cars are expensive, and most of their trips are <10 miles. When they ride, they're in their work uniform or business casual attire.
Can you honestly say the bike you're advocating for would be better than a slightly heavier, 750W e-bike with a ≈700Wh battery, step-thru frame, 1.5" commuter tires, full-fenders, a tail rack, lights, and a weight of around 70 lbs?
It's horses-for-courses. Your advice isn't bad, it's just disconnected from the group that you're maybe speaking too. Then again, you might be speaking to the +100lb dual-battery monster e-bike crowd. I agree that those people would likely be better off dialing back the weight and reducing power a bit in exchange for better efficiency and handling.
The really major factor that most traditional cyclists cannot seem to decouple from is the weight vs power dynamic on an e-bike versus a bicycle. E-bike drivelines can easily double the output of a human rider. Saving 50g here and there is pointless when the battery itself weighs 5 kg alone, and the output from that more than offsets the additional weight by a wide margin.
mperham@reddit
Most people need a station wagon, not a gigantic landtank SUV. But here we are.
ggezboye@reddit
A lot of people where I live would tell me they want to buy an ebike but once I asked them how they are going to use it you'd be surprised that they will be describing an e-motorcycle.
Cargobiker530@reddit
No. Roadies and super light gravel bikes are fragile and suck at carrying loads if they even have mounting points for panniers & front racks. Weight weenies have made biking appear to be bizarre to most people.
Cruisers, dutchies, cargo bikes, & adventure bikes are much more in line with people's actual needs and abilities.
Serdones@reddit
I can't speak that much to the mechanics or physics of riding off the top of my head, but it is interesting how 3" or 4" tires have become the norm among so many popular ebike brands (DTCs especially), even though people probably ride the same streets on more conventional road or mountain bike tires all the time.
A lot of people buying stuff like the Aventon Aventure just to ride in bike lanes or paved recreational trails. Kind of mirrors the car market with everyone buying SUVs just to commute, go buy milk and maybe take it on an OHV trail once in their seven-year loan term.
I'm not at all better, considering we got my wife an Aventon Aventure and I have a Lectrix XP3. But I have thought I'd very much like my next ebike to look like a more conventional hybrid bike that just happens to have PAS. Since I've also gotten back into motorcycling thanks in part to ebikes, I've found I actually want my ebikes to be more bike like, since I'm scratching the motorcycle itch on my little Honda CT125.
I think fat bikes on paper, for one, sound more multi-functional on the off chance people do want to explore offroad riding; and they just sound like they'll be more comfortable and stable for new riders. For those that stick with ebikes, but find they're only ever riding on the road and packed gravel trails at worst, maybe then they'll realize they'd be better off with narrower tires and a more conventional frame.
Japparbyn@reddit
Would love a light powerful bike. Not worth the investment due to theft risk though. Rather a powerful heavy and cheap bike then
Low-Traffic9850@reddit
Interesting and well considered point. Weight for security makes complete sense and I had never considered that before. Thanks!
murphysfriend@reddit
My ole Rad Power RadMission 1 eRoadbike, is at about 17.70 kg, and has 69,85 x 4.9cm size tires. Not too heavy, Not too big, not too small. Has 45 kph max capability. Is just right for a 183 cm person.
Tabbygail@reddit
Eh, most people want comfort. Slim, high pressure tires let you feel every blade of grass or mote of dust bumping along under you. Sure the speed is nice, but people won't ride if their legs and arms are vigorously shaken into jello. Especially when the alternative is comfy leather chair in an air conditioned box with stereo sound.
hudnut52@reddit
Put 32C road tyres on a 14kg Bosch SX 400ah gravel ebike like the cube nuroad hybrid.
I cruise on the flat at 30-35kph. Assistance cuts out at 25kph.
Going up hills is a breeze with the assistance.
BadluckyKamy@reddit
Yeah lighter e-bike are a blast to drive with the motor off and only use it in the big hills or for acceleration while commuting
lee1026@reddit
Judging by spelling choices, you are not American.
No amount of weight shaving or quality tires will get you to 28mph like the powerful bikes do.
Joose__bocks@reddit
Going from 212 to 138 has significantly improved my speed on all bikes. However, I use my bike for many things, from sport, to commuting, to errands. I often tow a trailer on errand days and by the end of the day it's loaded with stuff. Going up hills with a loaded trailer isn't difficult, but I imagine I'd greatly notice the difference between say 750W and 250W. I also have large panniers which only become an issue at greater speeds due to wind resistance.
With that said, I haven't tried to tow a loaded trailer up a hill with a 250W motor yet so who knows? If you're talking about beyond 750W then I rescind my comment.
aversboyeeee@reddit
The powers so much fun though. 🤷♂️
Fastgirl600@reddit
Absolutely! They are fun and nimble without the throttle getting away from you. In racing they are hella fun dragging knee a lot easier than the big bikes
jnyc777@reddit
I’m waiting for the next gen battery, I mean impatiently! power to weight ratio is definitely important, what is the best power to weight? Lighter is better, but power is nice too. On a trail being able to spin out the rear tire is fun. On street abit of weight actually makes the bike ride more comfortably. Carrying up the stairs, obviously lightest as possible
jun2san@reddit
This is exactly why I shelled out a bit more for my bike. I knew how much a heavier bike would be a pain and I wanted nicer tires.
giggsy81@reddit
What bike did you get? I'm thinking about buying a carbon fiber one
JasperJ@reddit
The impact of weight is pretty small. And I mean, yes, the extremes are bad. But 30 versus 20 kilos takes a lot of engineering, and it’s not a 1/3 reduction in weight — it’s only something like a ten percent reduction in system weight.
dicorci@reddit
NGL I didn't read your post but the title is spot on.. I would also add a more comfortable bike results in more riding something that most people would benefit from far more than power or looks or technology
I bought my mama townie step through Cruiser and with a few adjustments that thing rides like a dream