Why are schools so pedantic about uniform?

[-]

Fine_Cress_649@reddit

I believe it's a variation on broken windows theory.

In criminology, the broken windows theory states that visible signs of crime, antisocial behavior and civil disorder create an urban environment that encourages further crime and disorder, including serious crimes.[1] The theory suggests that policing methods that target minor crimes, such as vandalism, loitering, public drinking and fare evasion, help to create an atmosphere of order and lawfulness.

If you enforce what is a fairly trivial but very visible and easily codified issue - i.e. uniform - rigourously, then you improve behaviour overall.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

It is absolutely this- school leader here and teacher of over 20 years

The general view is that uniform is the easiest thing to crack, and if you get that right most of what you want follows

Very challenging children will still be very challenging whatever

But behaviour is infectious

Students who would otherwise just tow the line and get on will start pushing the boundaries if everyone else is or they think those boundaries are soft.

If the most basic and easily visible rules about uniform are soft, then all your boundaries are- and good students who normally would just do the right thing will follow a herd and misbehave.

If literally everyone is wearing their uniform correctly and students all expect that to be enforced, they expect everything else to be enforced and just get on with it.

I do agree though that in summer weather this needs to be relaxed by the school, and most schools do that

[-]

Magicwiper@reddit

[-]

Shannoonuns@reddit

I work for a uniform supplier.

In my experience parents and students seem to be happier and the students tend to be more successful at the schools with the better uniform policy.

Like on top of setting boundaries, if a school is organised enough to create a uniform that is affordable, consistent and fit for purpose then they're probably organised everywhere else too

Also theres just generally less push back if there is straightforward uniform policy, when I was a kid my school didn't ever spesficfy which kind of school trousers or shirts to wear but then would punish kids if it was wrong. Also some teachers were stricter than others and it was just really frustrating and inconsistent, then the kids and parents would understandably argue back.

Whereas if everyone knew exactly what they needed, it was cost effective, good quality & everyone knew they would be punished if they wore something else theres less to argue about and cuts out a lot of the agro.

[-]

jamesanglofranco@reddit

Well your livelihood relies on that being true

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

I agree entirely

My daughter goes to a school where uniform costs a fortune because everything is branded.

On the one hand, that's not good- each year we consider signing up to join Squid Game to afford it

But on the other, we know exactly what she has to have and that she will not fall foul of the rules

Having worked in a school that only stipulated a brander blazer, the uniform was cheaper but we had lots of problems with super tight fashion trousers that were not appropriate for the "business environment" we were aiming for but were difficult to justify to unsupportive parents why they didn't meet the policy

[-]

hurrdurrswit@reddit

Has the department for education or individual schools ever looked across at other countries where uniform isnt a thing and compared achievement and attainment levels etc. Continental european countries where uniform isnt a thing dont have these issues, why do we and why does being strict about school attire for children have any meaningful impact in life and the real world.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

I don't know if they have or not

I have visited schools in countries like that and most countries don't bother with uniform.

But we have a uniquely different culture in this country, particularly amongst our working class- and anti education culture that other countries don't really have

[-]

Turbulent-Fun-3123@reddit

Maybe because school busy themselves with trivial stuff like uniforms whilst failing to teach much.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

And there is the pathetic "we hate teachers" attitude that plagues this country and holds back so many of our children

[-]

Alternative_Arm_7249@reddit

I mean I'm sorry, but the person you replied to is correct. My European family moved to the UK when I was 12 years old, so I got first hand experience in seeing the difference between the UK and Europe.

the stuff they taught me in year 8 up to year 11 in the UK, is what I had already learned in primary school in Europe.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

No it wasn't

You did not learn upper level GCSE maths in primary school

You did not learn to write GCSE style history essays in primary school

We have a nation issue in this country with Secondary schools and primary schools not talking to each other. So I agree, in year 7 and even a bit of 8, students in many schools are not challenged enough compared to primary. This is a legitimate problem hardly spoken about

However, by year 9 and GCSE that disappears.

Remember also that schools do not get a choice in what is on the GCSE curriculum and exams

[-]

Alternative_Arm_7249@reddit

Read my original comment again.

I am not comparing UK primary to UK secondary.

I am comparing EU primary to UK secondary.

The things I had on my Maths GCSE exam, is stuff I learned in primary school back in the EU.

Therefore, the original point stands - UK schools/teachers are obsessed with uniforms, while teaching very little.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

I did read it, and I don't believe you.

Top level GCSE maths was not on your primary school curriculum at the same level of difficulty.

Primary school age students in this country will learn algebra and a bit of trig, but not at the same level of GCSE at all

You did not write GCSE level history essays under time pressure at primary school either

[-]

Romeo-McF@reddit

The logic of their argument isn't hard to pick apart either.

Schooling in both the UK and EU finishes with university-qualifying education at 18.

If students in the EU were 5 years ahead by the age of 11, what would they be fannying about with for the next 7?

[-]

Kickitoff1902@reddit

The other point is the inconsistency in what is taught and how it is taught at primary. I teach secondary and we have kids come in at wildly different levels. You cannot just leave half the class behind, because one primary school taught something so half the kids know it, but the other primary schools didnt, so the rest of the class are clueless.

Year 7 is largely about levelling the playing field.

The spiral curriculum is also relevant here.

[-]

jamesanglofranco@reddit

Britain has one of the highest education scores in Europe. And why are you referring to “Europe” as if it has only one education system?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/education-rankings-by-country

The one area we do comparatively badly is foreign languages.

[-]

Silver-Appointment77@reddit

I'm from England and primary school education is better than any secondary. My Grandson has just gone into year 7, first year secondary and even he says most of the things he's taught, he already knows. I was the same. I was learning long multiplication and fractions in year 10. I already knew how to do it from primary.

As far as im concerned Uniforms are a huge waste of money. £50 for a blazer with the school badge on,, £30 for a v neck jumper with a badge on it. Then with a whole PE kit which all have to have the badge on it, that itself is nearly £70. So over £100. And the education they get is rubbish.

[-]

AnonymousCapybara72@reddit

I find that usually the people who complain about schools not teaching much are thick, lazy cunts who learned nothing because they fucked around in school and didn't give a shit.

[-]

moonbrows@reddit

Our cultures are different in that respect, we’re possibly in a worse economic situation and have been for a long time, and our attitudes aren’t the same. The above just explained why being strict about school uniform has impact in life

[-]

Away-Activity-469@reddit

I think it is true to say that uk kids are generally worse behaved than European ones, regardless of economic situation.

Based on the reports I've seen and read Scandinavian kids are amongst the most happy. Likely behaving better on avg. The education system there is something next level in my opinion.

I don't know if there are uniforms in Scandinavian countries, but highly doubt the broken window theory works in terms of uniforms. I look at it as a controlling, meaningless rule. Doesn't prevent bullying, doesn't protect from the consequences of inequality. In fact, I think it makes it worse when facing it later in life or outside school.

There is crime elsewhere I am sure.. but what kids do here is wild. Keeping entire streets in terror, tenants being worried about their safety cause youth gangs roaming around, vandalism, drug usage, assaults, scrambler bikes in public places etc. It is massive.

[-]

Live-Inevitable-2232@reddit

I doubt kids in other places are exclusively angels but the rate you see headlines here about kids committing robberies, violent crimes etc is pretty astounding.

And that's just the stuff that actually makes the news. I often come across gangs of them on stolen bikes etc terrorising people in my city and it never makes the news.

[-]

The_Real_Rich1Up@reddit

Well exactly, its what they choose to report on the news to build a narrative they prefer. Crime is at a record low in fact.

[-]

Live-Inevitable-2232@reddit

I dont doubt that on paper it is.

But how much of that is because there's actually less crime and how much of it is because people are reporting things less and less due to non action?

So why bother then? Its just spending effort enforcing something for its own sake.

The argument is that uniforms equalise social backgrounds. But unless all schools have the same uniform, you have to accept that the opposite is true when it comes to different schools and wider society. The boater hats and tailcoats offer one strata, while polo shirts and viscose trousers offer another.

If we want to equalise social backgrounds we should ban private schools, not force kids from Luton to cosplay as edwardian scholars in piped jackets.

[-]

scarby2@reddit

And what the other poster is wondering is if any evidence exists to demonstrate that (other than anecdotes).

The fact that uniform has no impact does have a bearing here, given that it shows that if there's nothing to enforce (and we remove that lever entirely) there's zero impact.

[-]

Various-Moment-6774@reddit

I’m from Greece. A country far less financially troubled than the UK or most of European countries. Kids don’t have to wear uniform and kids don’t miss behave the way they do here. But from my point of view it’s not the school’s fault or the uniform or anything like that. It’s the family not want to parent their own kids. Leaving everything to a teacher. Who has to deal with 20-25-30 kids in the classroom. So it’s not about the uniform or what it helps to solve but about the parents who don’t wanna parent their own kids.

[-]

[-]

Chemistry_BITCH@reddit

No study like that, but in the last two years there was a school leader, teacher and parent survey on uniform in the UK.

Options were something like A) keep the same standards B) relax and have a more "casual uniform" C) get rid of uniform

The leaders were split between A and B

The teachers were mostly B with a little C

Parents were overwhelming A with some C.

I will link it if I find it but i am out and about

Essentially - uniform standards are driven by parents.

[-]

HalfFaust@reddit

At my school they seemed to go in waves of very strictly enforcing uniform and then gradually giving up. Wouldn't say I ever noticed a difference in behaviour. When they introduced blazers and ties, behaviour definitely got worse.

[-]

WanderWomble@reddit

That still doesn't explain why we're dressing our kids like tiny business men.

I went to an incredibly rough school and behaviour improved when we got a new head teacher who changed the uniform to branded polo shirts and skirts/trousers.

It must be hell for ND kids; I have major sensory issues and being forced to wear a tie and a blazer would have absolutely stopped me going to school because I wouldn't have coped with them.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

We do it simply because parents like it

Simple as that

Our state schools all use private school style uniform because parents then think it's a better school

Schools that use sweaters and sweatshirts instead, parents assume are shit and badly behaved.

The smarter the uniform, the more parents rate the school.

My daughter is autistic and has sensory issues. She can't wear a clip on tie, so wears a proper one and that helps

A lot of school uniform just isn't built for teenage girls bodies either, which comes in all sorts of configurations and for some girls it must be incredibly uncomfortable.

So I totally agree with you, but I can promise you that it is parental demand, expectations and perception that drives it

[-]

spinningdice@reddit

Proper ties were against the policy at our school, it specified clip on tie - no idea if anyone got in trouble for the proper tie, but given each year group had their own tie colours (it moved up with them so we didn't have to buy one each year) I'm not sure where we'd have bought a non-clipon version anyway.

I hard agree with the body shape one as well, as a slightly larger student with early developing chest my eldest never looked right in Uniform no matter how many times we swapped out sizes.

[-]

itsfourinthemornin@reddit

Is there a reason for why it's against policy? More for curiosity's sake than anything being honest.

We eventually switched to polo/sweatshirt combination but it was always a proper tie, clip-ons got you told off and taught how to tie a tie if you didn't know - back when I was at school anyway. My son goes up to secondary next year, they are all clip-on ties for their uniform, proper ties aren't allowed. My stepdad and I were curious when we attended the open evening but they didn't seem to know why the switch to clip-on.

[-]

spinningdice@reddit

I think it's for 'Health & Safety' reasons, less chance of getting strangled and quicker removal in case they catch fire.
Old articles from 2009: BBC NEWS | Education | Schools switching to clip-on ties Old school tie is shunned amid safety concerns | Schools | The Guardian

[-]

itsfourinthemornin@reddit

It makes sense I suppose, I don't remember much of that at my school, tie was an unspoken rule off being off limits!

[-]

WanderWomble@reddit

Someone swatted me at school and my tie was so tight around my neck a teacher had to cut it off.

I then got told off for the rest of the afternoon for not wearing it even though I showed the teachers what had happened.

[-]

itsfourinthemornin@reddit

Gosh, despite some of the rough housing at my school, touching the tie was like an unspoken rule you didn't go for in a fight or prank. Latter was my average school experience!

[-]

Turbulent-Fun-3123@reddit

Not really, more OFSTED.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

Not at all.

Perhaps in the past a bit, but Ofsted don't have a preference

They would pick up on students dressed unappropriately however

[-]

Turbulent-Fun-3123@reddit

I have known OFSTED to be very keen on uniform.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

You have known inspectors to be very keen on uniform

The framework never was and the inspectors do not have that latitude now- or shouldn't do

[-]

Nonsense

You have it all wrong.

You need to understand who it is demanding the uniform and what the historical basis of it is

[-]

pullingteeths@reddit

This is a lot of nonsense not backed by evidence. If there was any truth to this whatsoever then countries where having no uniform is standard would have worse behaviour and results - they don't. And you would be able to cite studies that back it - you can't. It's extremely embarrassing that schools of all places operate based on this old wives tale level "logic". In truth it's just because it's the easiest most low effort way for schools to be able to say they're doing something to improve behaviour or raise standards or whatever without putting in real work to do so. Disgracefully lazy nonsense that is a waste of everyone's time and only results in unfairly targeting poorer kids or kids whose parents don't bother about uniform as much and "criminalising" kids who have otherwise perfect behaviour and would never be in trouble

How are countries that don't have school uniform in most schools functioning perfectly fine without doing this? How were UK schools functioning perfectly fine 20+ years ago before stupid draconian uniform enforcement increased? Is behaviour better here than in those countries? Is it better now than 20 years ago? Where are the stats?

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

This is a lot of nonsense not backed by evidence. If there was any truth to this whatsoever then countries where having no uniform is standard would have worse behaviour and results - they don't. And you would be able to cite studies that back it - you can't. It's extremely embarrassing that schools of all places operate based on this old wives tale level "logic". In truth it's just because it's the easiest most low effort way for schools to be able to say they're doing something to improve behaviour or raise standards or whatever without putting in real work to do so. Disgracefully lazy nonsense that is a waste of everyone's time and only results in unfairly targeting poorer kids or kids whose parents don't bother about uniform as much and "criminalising" kids who have otherwise perfect behaviour and would never be in trouble

Studies, studies, studies. You can wipe your backside with peer reviewed studies about uniform conducted in other countries, which have completely different cultures and attitudes to education.

Uniform is a thing here because of history and the way British social history has shaped us. I might even explain it to you if you learn some manners

How are countries that don't have school uniform in most schools functioning perfectly fine without doing this?

Because they have completely different cultures and parental attitudes to education. They have different histories and their parents do not associate uniform with quality of the school. Behaviour is different too

How were UK schools functioning perfectly fine 20+ years ago before stupid draconian uniform enforcement increased?

🤣🤣

Uniform was little different 20-30 years ago than it is now. Behaviour was very different 20-30 years ago. You clearly have no idea.

What changed? You can no longer piss about for 5 years, leave school with no GCSEs and expect to walk into a job that you can progress in.

Is behaviour better here than in those countries?

No, it's probably a lot worse. But uniform probably makes it better than it would be otherwise as it sets an entry bar of compliance.

Is it better now than 20 years ago?

Yes, comprehensively

Where are the stats?

What stats exactly do you think would be decisive with this?

I am telling you as a teacher with over 20 years experience in state schools

[-]

pullingteeths@reddit

I'm sorry, so where's your evidence? Was behaviour worse 20 years ago and it's improved since this nonsense was brought in, you have statistics to back this? What is it about UK culture that requires draconian uniform policies? Do non uniform schools in the UK have worse behaviour? There are millions of children in schools in the UK, if this is more than an old wives tale there should be ample evidence to prove its effectiveness

Do you seriously not believe this can be an easy way for schools to cite something they're doing to improve standards and give them a good image that doesn't require the effort that things like actually tackling bullying and particular pupils' behaviour does? You don't think there's any correlation between the rise of this and the "academy" system where schools, particularly with new heads, want to improve their "brand" image?

You don't think it's a problem that this inevitably leads to pupils from poor families getting in trouble through no fault of their own? To pupils who have otherwise perfect behaviour getting detentions etc because of the clothing their parents dressed them in? How is this any kind of net positive for them?

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

My evidence is being a school student in the 80s and 90s and then being a teacher from the 00's onwards

What is it specifically about UK culture that requires draconian uniform policies?

I never said "Draconian" uniform policies were required. If you are sending students home for a shirt coming untucked, that is wrong.

But if you stipulate a uniform policy and enforce it, that is not "Draconian"

And as I have said to many others, it is the perception of parents that leads the uniform drive. I am not explaining the history of it again, find my other post on this same thread about it

Do non uniform schools in the UK have worse behaviour?

What schools would they be then? Have you ever seen one that wasn't specialist, IE an acting school?

There are millions of children in schools in the UK, if this is more than an old wives tale there should be ample evidence to prove its effectiveness

What evidence do you want?

Since there are virtually no mainstream, standard non uniform schools in the UK (and most parents would not trust them if there were), what would you like me to compare it to? Finland?

You cannot compare any data because education changes in time and context. One school may have virtually no suspensions, but that doesn't mean the students are well behaved- it might mean they have "inclusive" policies and hide the bad behaviour statistically by low suspensions. High suspensions could mean lots of bad behaviour, or very little that is always followed up on.

Do you seriously not believe this can be an easy way for schools to cite something they're doing to improve standards and give them a good image that doesn't require the effort that things like actually tackling bullying and particular pupils' behaviour does? You don't think there's any correlation between the rise of this and the "academy" system where schools want to improve their "brand" image?

This is uninformed nonsense. It is abundantly obviously you haven't spent any time in schools since you were a kid yourself, except maybe to make your kid's teacher's lives harder.

You don't even know what is "on the rise"

You don't think it's a problem that this inevitably leads to pupils from poor families getting in trouble through no fault of their own? To pupils who have otherwise perfect behaviour getting detentions etc because of the clothing their parents dressed them in? How is this any kind of net positive for them?

There is nothing inevitable about anything. A great may schools bend over backwards to support the poorest with uniform. Every school I have ever worked for provided pupil premium students uniform for free for a start, including shoes. Most schools have schemes where families give away uniform that doesn't fit and disadvantaged families can get these for free.

I agree with you that it is not right to be "criminalising" good students for minor infractions, and as a leader I believe in being a human being

But this is not difficult. My daughter is 14, has autism and ADHD- she has managed three years without one sanction for uniform

[-]

Major-Credit-2442@reddit

But why not just expand what is allowed ever so slightly and still enforce the rules rigorously? You could allow shorts but still have rules around it, eg min length they have to be, colour, material etc, and still enforce that.

I get what you’re saying about why the rules can’t be bent, I just don’t understand why that means the rules can’t be changed to something more suitable.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

Great question

Simplicity is always the answer

When it comes to uniform, boys are almost never the problem. It is teenage girls, and their mother's.

Whatever leeway you give, some of the girls will look for loopholes and weaknesses in the wording to wear tighter or more revealing versions, and often their mother's will aggressively support them.

When i was in school nearly half the students flouted the uniform codes and it absolutely wasn't just the girls

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

Depends.

Also a teacher. The reason is that once you have any variation, it becomes almost impossible to be consistent. That ends with some teachers being stricter than others, which fuels a sense of unfairness. Then, there’s fatigue where some students always push boundaries, and so get let off more easily, which again causes resentment.

AngryTudor1@reddit

That's lovely for you, but the UK is a very different place with a very different attitude to education - and you will have noticed that.

I have a daughter and a son

One has a uniform, the other doesn't.

My teenage daughter goes to a school with a uniform and she literally never even thinks about what she is wearing.

I am not saying particularly that uniforms have a benefit. Not even that I agree with them- I think we could do away with them pretty well in many schools

But what they do is a) create a sense of community and shared purpose, b) provide a basic yardstick of compliance that is easy for teachers to set the boundary of and enforce and c) make parents believe that a school is quality

[-]

Firm-Exam-6892@reddit

There is no evidence for a), b) or c). Studies have in fact found the opposite to a) e.g. Ansari. B) is surely a distraction from managing behaviour issues that actually matter to parents and children. C) is just marketing and in that respect just taking advantage of children who aren’t in a position to give consent.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

This conversation is going nowhere, because you have absolutely no experience and no idea what you are talking about.

I have over 20 years experience in schools in the UK, and you are quoting studies from completely different countries and cultures. They are meaningless here.

The thing is, I am not even a big supporter of uniform.

My post was explaining to OP why this was done

[-]

Neon102565@reddit

This is just blatantly untrue. Broken windows policing didn’t work in policing and it doesn’t work in schools - if your aim is to educate.

If your goal is to exclude to the point where things appear to be ‘fixed’ it works well.

In policing this means locking people away forever, and in schooling this means excluding ‘problematic’ children and not giving them an education.

[-]

The impetus for this is from parents actually.

Parents' impressions of a school are often formed in part by what the uniform looks like and how smart it is.

Private schools have such a huge cultural significance in this country, going back to the 19th century.

After the war, every grammar school tried to signal it's quality by copying private school uniforms.

Secondary moderns had jumpers, sweatshirts etc because it was assumed their children would never need to wear suits.

So culturally in this country we associate suit-based uniforms with a quality academic education and more casual ones with a lax, bullshit education.

[-]

Jhe90@reddit

I agree, schools need to keep control.

But theits a local school that kept people in blazers etc in this heat wave, black blazers... black trousers.

...

How is anyour gonna concentrate like that?

[-]

Complex_War1898@reddit

how come dutch schools dont need uniform, they are basically the same children!!

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

They are not the same children or the same parents

Much, much more positive attitude to education there.

Very negative in this country with the working class.

Lots of historical reasons for that, unique to our country

[-]

Historical_Rain_2960@reddit

Never works this way.

If you discipline children for unimportant things, they will grow numb to discipline and will take you less seriously.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

That isn't generally what happens

Most like to know where the boundaries are and just get on with it.

Life is full of unimportant rules and laws

[-]

Historical_Rain_2960@reddit

You seem to forget that school is no different from prison in how it operates.

You think inmates are just going to behave in an institution thst detains them? Same goes for many kids.

Heck they don't even get beaten by CO's like Inmates, worst case scenario is getting expelled, who cares about getting expelled? It's literally just moving from one school to another.

In school, teachers are no different from CO's in prison. Their job is to maintain order and keep everyone in line. So it goes without saying that they aren't respected inherently for that reason.

[-]

AngryTudor1@reddit

You are talking absolutely garbage here and clearly have zero clue about what schools are like today.

This is exactly the sort of anti education bullshit attitude that plagues our culture. You got problems and it isn't the teachers that have caused them

[-]

hhfugrr3@reddit

I do have friends who went to much fancier private schools and boarding schools where discipline absolutely was a problem, because when you get to that level of wealth there is actually quite a lot of parental neglect and general abuse behind the scenes and the schools are selecting for money rather than academics or behaviour.

Either way private schools are privileged in ways normal schools aren’t, and I do think enforcing things like uniform is a gentle and relatively easy way of making things work. But once it becomes absurd, like forcing students to wear clothes blatantly unsuited to the weather, there’s definitely a risk that kids will lose respect for the rules and for following rules in general. Especially teenagers, they respect logical rules more than arbitrary ones.

[-]

No-Mark4427@reddit

I find it interesting that it's so harshly enforced on students but not on teachers.

It's not the only factor but it's a well known phenomenon that people dressed in 'smarter' / more formal clothing project authority far better than those who don't.

Anecdotally, the few teachers in my HS (One male and two female) who wore smart suits to work had by far the best behaved classes, but it could be that people who dress like this might also be more likely to be more authoritative. It was one of those situations where some classes everyone was a wild animal, but their classes just had a more scary air about them which made people fall in line. One of the teachers was a psychology teacher and she said outright to us that this is the reason she wears smart wear to work, as she sees a big change in behaviour vs wearing more casual clothes.

[-]

Mr_Venom@reddit

I find it interesting that it's so harshly enforced on students but not on teachers.

It absolutely is enforced for staff and there's plenty of dithering over dress codes that happens behind closed doors.

Of course, "not every school" etc etc but in the main if a school is hot on uniform the staff will be rigidly held to it too. Except PE teachers who can wear a trackie whenever they feel like it apparently.

[-]

No-Mark4427@reddit

Yeah I guess - I work in FE and there is zero staff dress code, though I do know a secondary grammar teacher and she is required to wear a school uniform/blazer.

When I was in HS it seemed very casual or at least the teachers could get away with a lot. Some came in jeans and a t-shirt, others office casual, all the way up to suit and tie.

[-]

Mr_Venom@reddit

Jeans and a T shirt, in a secondary school? That would be very unusual nowadays.

[-]

paolog@reddit

* toe the line

B−, must try harder

[-]

RobertStaccd@reddit

Toe the line*

[-]

Objective_Quiet_751@reddit

Toe the line, not tow.

[-]

Mmm, BWT is about parking a car with broken windows in two neighbourhoods, one where that is common and one where it is not. It has little effect where it is just one of many broken-window cars.

But where that was unusual, it induces a variety of undesirable behaviours - it creates a permissive environment for, eg littering.

Uniform enforcement isn't like that, because if you remove someone for uniform violation they're then not in the group. So it's unclear whether improved outcomes are genuine or just because the group composition has changed.

[-]

YouWascallyWabbit@reddit

My son's school uniform is a logo'd sweatshirt and black trousers, and I love them for it. Schools that are obsessed with blazers and ties are, imo, mental, and I suspect have a non-zero financial relationship with uniform makers/sellers.

These stupid polyester costumes have become so popular in the last decade, I'm really thankful to have got my boy into the school he has.

[-]

EmeraldJunkie@reddit

I noticed my old secondary school slipped when it became lax regarding the uniform policy.

We used to carry "strike" cards, and could be given a strike from a member of staff for any infraction, including uniform. Three strikes equalled an hours detention on a Friday.

A few years after I left, it was made an academy and a lot of the senior leadership changed and they did away with the strike cards. My friend from university did some training there and noticed that most of the young lads wore trainers instead of shoes, which was not the standard when I was there.

The school went to having an outstanding ofsted rating to needs improvement within a few years, those slipping standards were just the first sign.

[-]

Enough-Progress5110@reddit

Except that the broken windows theory has been thoroughly debunked once subjected to any kind of scientific scrutiny so one would dare hope that in an academic environment of all places it would not be used for policy making…

[-]

humandustbin@reddit

Yeah I've heard something about how children always will try to push boundaries somewhat so having strict uniform rules mean that children can still disobey but ultimately everyone is safe and it doesn't really matter

[-]

KateEllaBeans@reddit

Which is flawed thinking considering that theory got debunked

https://cssh.northeastern.edu/sccj/2019/05/21/researchers-debunk-broken-windows-theory-after-35-years/

[-]

Atompunk78@reddit

This theory has been more or less proven though right? Like even with studies where they clean up all graffiti in a neighbourhood yet do no other changes, it drastically reduces crime

[-]

The_Real_Rich1Up@reddit

Broken window theory is wrong: https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/books/114/

[-]

Absolutely, it's about the first step of school discipline. You do this because we say so. That's the deal. You are a kid, we are the school.

[-]

Major-Credit-2442@reddit

I think you have a point here, but this doesn’t stop them from still expanding what they allow but still enforcing it rigorously.

[-]

SecTeff@reddit

That’s right and also if children want to revel they rebel with the uniform which is fairly minor compared to other potential behavioural issues.

I was a bit sceptical but I have a partner who is a teacher and she swears it works and I believe her judgment

[-]

Electronic-Fennel828@reddit

Ding ding ding! That’s exactly it. It’s also why you see this more with schools in more deprived areas. It’s the appearance of control in a sea of chaos.

[-]

Think-Ladder7925@reddit

Exactly. Me and my classmates were a bunch of animals at the best of times, I could hardly blame them for trying to keep some sort of order.

[-]

JennySt7@reddit

Having grown up in (continental) Europe in a school system without uniforms, I have strong feelings against them to begin with.

Their only purpose, to me, is to stifle individuality, and train kids into behaving like “little soldiers” who must blindly follow orders, even if there isn’t a valid or logical reason behind them. I feel like uniforms are almost dehumanising, to an extent (not to sound too dramatic) - they turn a person with a distinct look and personality into a cog in a machine, barely distinguishable from the next cog (kid) down the line. Whenever there’s a discussion about them, my mind always goes to the music video for Pink Floyd’s “The Wall”, with the kids in uniforms falling into the meat grinder.

Teacher here. Historically we have moved to “shirt sleeves order” where students were allowed to not wear blazers or ties. Honestly I has happy with this.

But, last week, we trialled kids (and staff) coming in in PE kit. It was pretty unanimously popular. The arguments against are generally that girls would be wearing inappropriate (skin tight) stuff.

[-]

BikeProblemGuy@reddit

Follow-up question: why are schools so victim blamey about girls clothes? Outside school, we have huge campaigns about"it's not about what you wear" and "teach rapists not to rape". And inside school it's like the last 30 years haven't happened.

[-]

LordBoomDiddly@reddit

Its about what is appropriate.

Would go to a customer facing job in booty shorts and a crip top? No. You wouldn't in an office either, it's not appriate professional attire.

School is about learning, uniform is part of that. It teaches children how they're expected to dress in a professional environment, part of that is not distracting others with your attire or just doing stuff to be a non conformer which is what boys do.

Why should we let boys wear their trousers half way down? It looks awful and it's impractical. I wouldn't as a manager let my staff do that, why should a school?

[-]

HatOfFlavour@reddit

Yet in professional environments women can wear sleeveless tops and skirts yet the same place wouldn't let a guy work in a wifebeater.

My boss once floated clothing standards at work (we aren't customer facing, it's frequently boiling hot in summer and we deal with stuff that can stain your clothes) he had a proposed outline that banned shorts for guys but still allowed the women to go sleeveless and have skirts. I handed it back to him without signing it and said I know where I can buy a kilt if he's gonna force me.

[-]

LordBoomDiddly@reddit

Yeah it can be inconsistent.

Girls for a long time weren't allowed to wear trousers at school, which is silly

[-]

ASpookyBitch@reddit

Honestly I think I’d rather schools made everyone wear trousers. I’m sick of seeing the underwear of girls that have rolled their skirts up. Like I get it, but at the same time your kid can you not.

[-]

LordBoomDiddly@reddit

Or boys pants be cause they can't wear trousers properly.

A lot of it is parents telling their kids that stuff is OK

[-]

HatOfFlavour@reddit

That was also true at mine and after they were finally allowed they tried to enforce that the girls HAD to only buy those black smart trousers from the one uniform supplier, despite arguments from several curvatous girls that those hurt and didn't fit. While all the guys got smart black trousers from shops like M&S.

[-]

a_f_s-29@reddit

School trousers used to be so so uncomfortable. The sizing and cut of them was terrible

[-]

Yet a lot of offices today allow more casual wear. The days of everyone having to wear business attire are long gone and schools should follow suit and let kids wear their own clothes.

[-]

sixtydegr33@reddit

Read more of the thread if you'd like to find out more. It's not about preparing them for the world of work. It's about maintaining good order and high standards in schools (see the comments about the broken glass theory).

[-]

Alexandhisgoose@reddit

Those things can be achieved without the need for uniforms. For example you will get better order if people are comfortable at school rather than wearing something hot and uncomfortable that irritates them.

[-]

I was lucky enough to go to a school that didn't have one and it made no difference in preparation for adult life

[-]

BikeProblemGuy@reddit

The kids who were bullied at non-uniform schools died!?

Proper research would be great, but the anti-bullying evidence for uniforms is anecdotal so it's perfectly fine to talk about experiences.

Personally I think it's correlation not causation. Schools with behaviour problems enact a new set of rules which include stricter uniforms and then credit uniforms for any improvement, or even use the adherence to the uniform policy as evidence of better behaviour.

[-]

BikeProblemGuy@reddit

Yeah same. I went to three schools; the one without a uniform was much more friendly and had zero bullying because respect was built in from the ground up. The other schools' uniform policies not only did nothing to reduce bullying, they actually made things more difficult for kids because a bully could steal/damage your uniform and get you in trouble.

[-]

Funicular-@reddit

Yeah I've never bought the whole people get bullied more with no uniform argument. I swear the only people that make that argument have never been to a school with no uniform but just assume that would be the case.

[-]

Living-Director-5080@reddit

Yes but these are children not professionals. You've just become another mug in the system

[-]

It's wrong because it's blaming the victim. Perhaps look up what victim blaming is if you don't understand.

[-]

moonbrows@reddit

I know what victim blaming is far too well, thank you. CPS did not take my complaint further because of my clothes. You are preaching to the choir and also not understanding what victim blaming is yourself.

[-]

BikeProblemGuy@reddit

I've been asked this before so I'll add my model uniform policy here.

To answer your question, bikinis expose your butt so wouldn't comply with Rule 2. Clothing must be long and opaque enough to cover private areas.

A good dress code shifts the focus from policing students' bodies to maintaining school safety and functionality. It should be gender-neutral, objective and based on the risk of harm behind every rule.

Clothing should be safe. Nothing that's going to cause injury to the wearer or others. Nothing that covers the eyes other than glasses/contacts. Footwear should be practical, safe and suitable for the activity.
Clothing should be weather appropriate.
Private areas should be covered (butt, genitals).
Graphics & text on clothing should comply with school rules on speech, i.e. no slurs, hate speech, hate symbols, illegal substances, guns etc.
Headware and hoods are allowed, provided the student can still see & hear their teacher. This includes hoodies, hijabs, yarmulkes, turbans, etc.
All hair textures, colours & styles are allowed. e.g. braids, locs, twists, and dyed hair.
Visible waistbands or straps should not result in punishment; clothes are clothes.
Inexpensive jewellery is allowed, except in certain lessons like PE where it causes a snagging risk.
Bare legs, shoulders, backs etc. are allowed.

Enforcement guidelines are just as important as the rules themselves. Conversations around the dress code should be done with sensitivity. No body shaming. Individual violations should be discussed in private. Students shouldn't miss school unless necessary for safety.

A respectful dress code empowers students to make informed choices and treats mistakes as minor conversations rather than disciplinary crises. It's proactive in taking a positive view of bodies; they're not something to be ashamed of or victim blame about.

[-]

AirconGuyUK@reddit

I remember driving around with my ex who was from Eastern Europe and her just blurting out as we passed some school girls 'Why do school children dress like whores in this country?'..

And it's just got worse in the 10 years since I laughed at that.

There's two schools near me. One who has a strict dress code of modesty, with skirts needing to be ankle length. And one much like what you proposed there.

And it's the latter that I regularly see wildly inappropriate attire from the girls. The guys all dress the same in trousers, so nothing to really comment on there.

The girls have insanely short skirts to the point they couldn't bend over to pick up a pencil without flashing people.

It's just inappropriate for 12-16 year olds to be wearing stuff like that imo. My ex was right, they are dressing like whores. There's no need for it.

[-]

BikeProblemGuy@reddit

Okay I'm going to be bold here and say the person calling children whores is actually not on the right side of this.

[-]

AirconGuyUK@reddit

Didn't call them whores, said they dress like whores.

If I dress as a fireman, that doesn't make me a fireman.

[-]

BikeProblemGuy@reddit

I mean, you can either reflect on what she meant by this or not. If dressing like a whore is value neutral because she wasn't calling them whores then why comment on it. She was criticising them.

[-]

AirconGuyUK@reddit

I think she was criticising the society that allows it tbh.

[-]

Tenzil-k@reddit

The short answer is that when everyone involved including bystanders and the people choosing to wear certain clothes is under very complex child protection legislation and have no legal ability to waver it by choosing to do things consensually in the way adults can it’s a legal minefield and ‘wear long clothes’ doesn’t make it less so but does mean less explosions.

[-]

Tenzil-k@reddit

Because everyone there is under 16 and under child protection legislation including not being exposed to stuff and the ability to say ‘I’m choosing to expose this stuff’ is there there because that person is below the age of consent herself.

So if you have a situation where a child is choosing to wear clothes that her parent thinks is inappropriate or sexualised they dont actually have the right to do so and child protection legislation kicks in.

And if the parent of another child asks why is my child being exposed to shorts that let them see more than they want to it isn’t as cut and dried as ‘rapists shouldn’t rape’ because you have over a 1000 under 16 year olds all
Protected by legislation with very different ideas of what is ok and no ability to legally say ‘but I wanted them to see it’

So the school just says ‘everyone wear x’ in the same way they respond to kids willingly sending each pictures of themselves by saying ‘no phones’

[-]

TapWaterDev@reddit

If the girls' PE kit is inappropriate, then it shouldn't be the PE kit...

[-]

omgu8mynewt@reddit

Female athletes (which many of the students will be e.g. dancers, gymnasts, runners) compete in what is revealing clothes.

A student wearing a gymnastics leotard or runners shorts and sleeveless shirt obviously is unsuitable for the classroom, so it isnt as easy as just wearing the same athletic clothes to class - there has to be a whole other set of clothes e.g. tracksuit, which isnt what you wear for PE

[-]

ASpookyBitch@reddit

But usually a PE kit for school, regardless of gender, is a polo shirt and shorts or tracksuit bottoms… so…

[-]

januarynights@reddit

Why would a sleeveless shirt be unsuitable for the classroom?

[-]

omgu8mynewt@reddit

In case you havent noticed, women rarely bare their shoulders except on hot days or dressed for sport.

I also often wonder why uniforms are so 'smart' and also therefor often uncomfortable. Especially when they become to small mid way through the year.

A uniform that is comfortable is surely better for learning than one that gives gives the illusion of 'being professional'.

[-]

a_f_s-29@reddit

Uniforms used to be a lot more comfortable when they were made out of real, breathable fabrics instead of polyester.

[-]

rising_then_falling@reddit

You want the uniform to be different to what the children wear at home. It's all part of putting children in the mind set of "I am now in school mode where I dress differently and behave differently to when I'm on the sofa".

Also, raising children is to some extent about trying to make them work on the next stage of being grown up. Getting them to wear grown up clothes like shirts and jackets is part of that.

[-]

Smart feels completely surplus to requirements.

[-]

I've recently come round to the as an idea. Primary especially should just be pe kit all the time.

[-]

Firm-Exam-6892@reddit

I find it very odd that a teacher should feel it is appropriate to comment on the tightness or otherwise of girls’ clothing.

[-]

chuchoterai@reddit

Absolutely- it is so essential to police girls’ bodies for impropriety. 🙄

[-]

cari-strat@reddit

Yeah, be warned - that issue got waaaay out of control fast at my children's middle school (9-13) a few years ago. They said on PE days, the kids could come in PE kit all day - this was supposed to be a black fleece and T-shirt, and plain black football style shorts or joggers.

It started off ok, but very quickly a group of older girls started coming in Nike Pro type shorts, first the long mid thigh ones and then very soon in the ultra teeny tiny ones where your arse cheeks are basically hanging out, combined with cropped T shirts.

They were the sort of strapping lasses that could easily pass for 16+ and were very much revelling in the resulting attention from the lads. Unfortunately it was also quite literally stopping cars on the walk home - there were blokes leaning out of their windows catcalling them, pensioners clutching their pearls, and all sorts.

Naturally the school got pretty upset over this, compounded by much social media outrage about how disgusting it was that they 'let young girls walk round in a uniform like that!'

The Head promptly outlawed all cycling-type shorts, and there were some sanctions handed out, at which point the girls decided to go full scorched earth.

They went in with the angle that it was a woman's right to dress as she wanted, the people claiming it was inappropriate were perverts, teachers shouldn't be looking at young girls' behinds, etc etc.

A day or so later, we arrived at school to find a load of them had fastened themselves to the railings with bloody great signs proclaiming 'Our bodies, our choice!' and various similar messages. The staff were running around like headless chickens, desperately hoping the local newspaper didn't get wind of it.

Unsurprisingly, full uniform as standard on all days was reinstated the following morning, and anyone in non-regulation kit at PE lessons got an afternoon in isolation.

[-]

EntirelyRandom1590@reddit

Short sleeve order sounds very ex-military!

My bugbear with the PE kit is that you usually only need it once or twice a week. Suddenly needing it every day for 1-2 weeks a year is a PITA!

[-]

srm79@reddit

Even in work we had different uniforms for different roles or time of year.

Reception staff could wear a work jumper and gilet when it's cold, managers could wear a full suit or trousers and shirt/blouse, bar staff could wear shirts or polo's (even promotional t-shirts) depending on the weather or temperature of the club. Kids in schools should have some choice in how they dress that's proportionate to their environment.

Yes, it may mean buying more items for parents, but they don't have to have so many branded items as part of the uniform

[-]

MobileKeychain@reddit

Brits still defending uniforms don't seem to understand just how weird and archaic they are.

[-]

Useless_or_inept@reddit

Some people say that schools aren't preparing children for the modern workplace.

Of course. That's why they are taught a broad curriculum and some of that is tailored towards some career paths and others towards different career paths.

You didn't know that?

[-]

HydraulicTurtle@reddit

As someone who had a shirt, tie and blazer school uniform which was rigorously enforced, I think they are very important.

It says a lot about the reductionist views of isolated policies that people write them off as being irrelevant to the work you do.

Habitual adherence to policy and legislation, especially one so easily codified and visible as uniform, teaches good discipline and civic duty, in my opinion.

[-]

BikeProblemGuy@reddit

if you can't follow procedure and keep your boots shiny and clean then how can you be trusted with doing the same with a gun?

Being able to prioritise their time between important and unimportant things is a valuable skill for kids to learn. Whereas army privates are supposed to prioritise following orders even if they don't make sense.

[-]

hughesyg@reddit

My kids school doesn’t. They can wear T-shirt and shorts from after Easter break and been told they don’t need to bring blazers anymore

[-]

Fancy-Professor-7113@reddit

I don't know, it's mad. To produce more drones?

Schools shouldn't be allowed to be pedantic about it. They should be allowed to give a broad description eg: grey trousers/shorts, white polo shirt and navy jumper, hoodie or cardigan but not beyond that.

But then I'm in Scotland and that's what my son's school does and tbh hardly anybody follows it, PE kit is supposed to be dark shorts with white t-shirt but everyone just wears whatever they want and they get PE two days a week so at any point at least 40% of the classes are in own clothes.

[-]

clrthrn@reddit

Having done my own school years in a UK uniform school and now with my own kids in a non uniform school, I prefer no uniform. Snobbery is what I’ve boiled the push for uniforms down to. If private schools all dropped uniform tomorrow, state grammars would follow first and then all state schools. Where I am now (EU country) , our future queen cycles herself to the local state school wearing jeans every day. I think the UK would benefit from seeing that sort of thing from UK royals. Flatten the class system and drop the snobbery for everyone.

[-]

Sure-Recognition-262@reddit

My theory is that schools know that children are going to push boundaries - so by giving them something to channel that energy into which is highly visible and obviously rather unimportant to push against (and for the school to respond to them pushing against it), they reduce the likelihood of children doing it in other ways which could be more damaging to themselves, each other, and the school.

[-]

keithmk@reddit

I agree totally with this as a retired headteacher, it was the one advantage I could see in having a uniform

[-]

Im a teacher. Uniform is dumb and wildly outdated. Why are we forcing kids to wear ties? "To prepare them for the world of work" - sure, but lots of places have wfh or hybrid working and even in most offices, they have done away with ties as an expectation, so really, we just create a pointless battle.

The world has moved on. Sure, have the kids all wearing the same if you want.... A polo shirt, and school tracksuit... with shorts option, and trainers would tick that box without any of the constant nonsensical battles we have today, totally gender neutral... oh, and bonus, they no longer have to waste half a pe lesson getting changed.

"But some kids will get bullied for their trainers" - well that may happen, but we allow non uniform days, the kids post everything on social media, and its a lot easier for parents to afford nice trainers if theyre not having to buy pointless school shoes and blazers, and shirts every year that the kids only wear during school. Kids get bullied for their hair colour more than the trainers they wear these days anyway.

No more pointless battles about untucked shirts and rolled up skirts. No more sending kids home to fetch their bloody blazer.

Terrible-Group-9602@reddit

As you mentioned evidence, do you have any evidence to support the rather dramatic claims in your second paragraph?

[-]

terryturbojr@reddit

That is an interesting article and shows how children are arseholes everywhere and interesting how everyone always thinks they're worse than everyone else.

[-]

Terrible-Group-9602@reddit

I think UK schools are very good at recognising bullying and labelling it as such, which may give a wrong impression there's more bullying in the UK.

[-]

terryturbojr@reddit

Google is your friend but some examples

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/bullyingandonlineexperiencesamongchildreninenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023

Troubling findings about bullying from The Good Childhood Report 2024 https://share.google/KkpsxLKxEuJO2jMxz

UK teens bullied more at school than in many other countries | The Standard https://share.google/hqUeawAUREcEmWagW

[-]

Woffingshire@reddit

At my school they always said that it was to reduce classism and encourage social mixing.

If every child has to wear the same clothes and has to wear them in the same way then kids who can't afford the most expensive or fashionable clothes aren't socially disadvantaged by it at school.

[-]

pitchblaca@reddit

I'm not a fan of strict school uniform rules at all. My child's secondary school punishes uniform violations, even with an explanation from parents, eg. broken shoes, can't afford new until payday, with the same punishment as disrupting lessons or being disrespectful to a teacher, which in my eyes, are far more serious.

I was in secondary school in the 90's, our uniform was black skirt or pants, white shirt/blouse, tie, black shoes, black jumper or cardigan. None was branded other than the tie.

Did I look smart? Sometimes. Did it stop me from getting excellent GCSE results? no.

It’s because they were given an inch and took 10 miles, so the schools cracked down on it so it’s idiot/ignorance proof.

School allows trousers for girls? We all know that means something that wouldn’t be amiss in a professional setting, which is age appropriate, not form fitting and suitable for school. You end up with some of the school in perfectly appropriate trousers and the rest in leggings, flares, things with mad zips etc. They get called out for it because it’s not appropriate and the reply is “but you said trousers and these are trousers.” So the rule gets tightened so there can be no “misunderstandings”.

Parents and kids ruined it for themselves by taking the piss.

[-]

hurrdurrswit@reddit

Honestly, i think its largely to do with a mixture of British and archaic exceptionalism. I spent my whole life in the uk, including going to a rigorously enforced uniform school in the early 2000s. Top button and tie always had to be done up, shirts tucked in. Swelter in polyester blazer in the summer and no shorts or short sleeves allowed unless in primary school. After PE or games as the last lesson we also mind numbingly had to change back into school uniform before leaving school. Half of school just seemed to be pedantry about school uniform.

I currently live and work in Switzerland and my kids dont wear a school uniform and it has absolutely zero impact on anything. Not sure i buy the whole broken windows etc nonsense. I could wear what I wanted at university and currently at work typing this out wearing a tshirt, chinos and trainers. Kids school uniform just feels like an outdated victorian era relic imo.

[-]

geeered@reddit

No effects on your kids, I bet it does on some.

Rekyht@reddit

15:3, 27th January 1994.

Or you know, when the budgets got cut so much that theres no one that is left in the industry that wants to be a teacher just to 'bully kids'. Grow up ffs.

[-]

SpringAutumnReversal@reddit

Larping class in a dead nation

[-]

Immediate-Cow-6183@reddit

You need to ask a different question!! Why are self important parents and their equally annoying children so obsessive about breaking the rules. Society needs rules to operate effciently. This basic concept has not been absorbed by significant numbers of parents who pass their ignorance on to their offspring.

[-]

zoppaTheDim@reddit

The illusion of control is often more important than actual control.

[-]

GhostRiders@reddit

The vast majority of schools relax uniform rules in hot weather.

[-]

MissCurious75@reddit

I was coming to say this. My son attended a grammar and they're super hot on uniform rules. In the summer term they're allowed to have the top button undone and don't have to wear their blazer. The PE teacher also let them go home in their PE kit if it was the last lesson of the day.

[-]

Winston_Carbuncle@reddit

We held a protest in the outside, caged basketball courts one day when it was roasting. Even for the local radio presenters involved and students were giving interviews from the cage.

Somebody even managed to tie one of the assistant heads' arm to the cage briefly.

This was only in the late 00's but writing this is sounds like something from the 70s.

Funny thing is I'm sure we all just went back into lessons after about 2 hours

[-]

LCPO23@reddit

Thankfully uniform in our school is a bit more lax. For events they request shirt and tie, but day to day the kids can wear branded polo with grey shorts, skirts of dresses. Blazers aren't compulsory either. The only rule as such is no black, has to be grey or green.

It definitely helps on the hotter days.

[-]

JanSobieski-III@reddit

My school never had uniform

[-]

BlackberryMelodic567@reddit

My highschool actually ditched the blazers. We used to have a winter and summer uniform (summer was just a polo shirt but you were expected to wear the blazer in class but you could ask to take it off). Now they're changing it to just be the polo

[-]

UR_Arrogant@reddit

Uniforms have multiple psychological benefits. They should be designed to give wearers: - A sense of belonging. - Increased team cohesion. - Higher self esteem & confidence. - Improved productivity. - Role recognition. - Reduced anxiety about appearance. - Comfort in all seasons and climates.

School uniforms should be enforced and "looksmaxing" should be discouraged in schools.

[-]

DancingSpacePenguin@reddit

Uniform means discipline, and sets the student up for the real, actual world where you may not agree with the rules but need to conform.

Next week is not going to be that warm anyway.

Most schools don't require a blazer to be worn during hot periods. It would be a hazard of sorts.

[-]

Ok_Molasses_7037@reddit

Its just to demonstrate dominance. The fact that it is petty is part of the design, there to make an example that you must obey everything - and that the rules not making sense will do nothing to dampen the enforcement.

Bullying kids into compliance is culturally accepted, as is the sacred authority of optics.

[-]

tb5841@reddit

Uniform policies only work if all teachers say the exact same thing. Which means individual teachera shpuld not be making judgement calls, they should be following exactly what they are told to say.

[-]

I worked in a school for years and we had summer dress orders that were triggered when it was too hot. Still a uniform but more suitable for hot weather - I thought most schools did this.

[-]

Miss_Type@reddit

They do! Open collar, shirt untucked, no blazer, ankle socks instead of tights, etc.

[-]

PreparationWorking90@reddit

Primary schools are bigger on summer/winter uniforms

[-]

Ok_Cow5684@reddit

My dad was the deputy head at my secondary school. He hated the uniform rules; he thought they were pointless and wasted teachers' time on enforcing uniform when they could have been doing something more useful. I think most of the senior staff agreed.

But the school governors liked to see the students looking "smart", and refused any requests to change or relax the rules.

So it may be that the teachers are stuck enforcing rules that they hate just as much as the students do.

[-]

Miss_Type@reddit

Teacher of 20+ years here, and I absolutely agree that I hate enforcing uniform rules - and I teach in a school that has got rid of ties and has everyone in open necked shirts all year. Our school PE kit is great, I think they should be wearing a variation of that every day.

I work for a school uniform supplier.

Like you said, it reduces bullying a bit and it helps identify students on thier way to and from school.

Also you get less of that thing that seems to happen in the us where the dress code policy ends up really frustratingly spesfic, needs updating constantly and kind of feels like its being made up on the spot just to spite certain kids.

Not all of them are too pedantic about it too be fair, also I feel like if a school is organised enough for a good uniform policy that works its probably a good school generally.

If you have a kid and thier school uniform policy is a bit crap raise it with the school. Our schools often come to us with new ideas after they've received a few complaints or suggestions.

It might be worth pushing for school boys shorts at least because most schools allow skirts anyway. Also you can get these most places now for a reasonable price.

We have some schools with emblazoned summer shirts and blouses so they don't need a jumper, tie or blazer but it can get quite expensive considering they probably only really need the full summer uniform a few days a year. Theyre only really popular with our schools in wealthier areas.

My favourite option is pe kit days, most schools have a pe polo/t-shirt with a logo so it doesn't force parents to buy more clothes but they still has the benefit of wearing an identifiable uniform.

Do bring it up with the school either way.

[-]

i-like-your-tree@reddit

I'm sure the will be some grand excuse about behaviour but from the perspective of an SLT who works very closely with OT, sometimes uniform provides a clear structure that can really benefit a student by taking away processing and adding clear lines and boundaries, other times we're trying to not tell the head teacher that he actually is being a horrible person for punishing the ASD kid who can't tolerate the collar on his shirt and tie when he refuses to wear it and it results in a very very predictable meltdown. I'm sure rigidity helps plenty of kids, but I'm also sure it won't make a huge difference if they just chose a uniform that wasn't a sensory nightmare so that the smaller group of kids can access education without being made to feel like they're the problem. I hated uniforms as a kid, I don't really like them as an adult. Primary schools are doing better by having comfier styles

[-]

terryjuicelawson@reddit

It is an easy way of instilling discipline, that is the core of it. Everything else is a mild positive or excuse. Schools don't care if someone is bullied for having the wrong brand of t-shirt.

[-]

hhfugrr3@reddit

Pleased to say not all schools are like this. My kids' schools are very laid back on uniform. My eldest's uniform stipulates a blazer and tie, but he rarely wears the tie and we haven't bought him a blazer since year 7... he's currently doing his GCSE exams.

[-]

Lots of workplaces have a dress code, but it's a small minority that have an actual uniform. And most aren't anywhere near as draconic about enforcing it as some schools seem to get.

[-]

EntirelyRandom1590@reddit

What you define as uniform is up to you.

But given that the biggest employers* in the UK all require varying mixes of uniform and PPE, I don't believe for a moment it's a small minority.

*NHS, Armed Forces, uniformed public Services, Tesco, John Lewis Partnership, Compass and others across retail, services, pharma and construction.

[-]

Perhaps look up the origins of the word uniform to understand what it means.

Do all children go straight into middle class jobs? That's a surprise to me. Maybe you're a nepo baby so that's "normal".

[-]

IrrelevantPiglet@reddit

Do all children go straight into middle class jobs? That's a surprise to me. Maybe you're a nepo baby so that's "normal".

Where has this come from all of a sudden? If you're gonna get into making random assumptions then I think this conversation is done.

[-]

EntirelyRandom1590@reddit

If a job requires PPE or a formal uniform, normally the employer provides it. I've sometimes wondered why, if uniforms are so important for schools, they don't issue it themselves.

[-]

bramleyapple1@reddit

Its really not a hard concept to grasp

Plenty of countries don't have school uniforms and don't have issues with school leavers unable to wear PPE etc...

[-]

LifeNavigator@reddit

This isn't to do with uniforms, more so the fact that you're getting paid and is within your control (as in you WANT to work), unlike school which is mandatory.

Kids in other countries with no mandatory uniform learn it fine without issues.

[-]

EntirelyRandom1590@reddit

Going to school isn't mandatory in the UK. Education is mandatory. Don't like it? Talk to your mum.

[-]

Accurate-Herring-638@reddit

I went to school on the continent, so no uniform. As a teenager I had part time jobs in restaurants, care homes and the local hospital. All of them required me to wear some kind of uniform and somehow I managed without my brain exploding.

Now, I'm a university lecturer so I can just wear jeans and a t-shirt everyday :).

[-]

EntirelyRandom1590@reddit

So your data point is 1? You don't lecture in maths or science then?

[-]

Wild_Region_7853@reddit

Where was any of this implied? OP literally said they're not against uniforms. There are very few jobs I can think of where an employer would force you to wear a blazer in 30 degree heat and no air con.

[-]

BilboDankins@reddit

With wfh, a lot of employers don't even require you to wear pants anymore.

[-]

Emotional-Steak1339@reddit

It's the broken windows theory. It's sometimes also called "sweating the small stuff". The idea is that strictly enforcing smaller, easy rules (especially visible ones), reduced the amount of bigger rule-breaking that happens.

Take a rough school where holes get punched in the walls. The theory is that making kids have their shirts tucked in and put blazers on before leaving the classroom reduces this kind of antisocial behaviour on the corridor.

Sometimes they use a similar logic on public transport. Going round and giving people fines for having feet on seats (in theory) reduces the amount of fights, aggressive behaviour etc.

[-]

Affectionate-Cost525@reddit

I don't understand why more schools don't do "summer uniforms"

CrossCityLine@reddit

Conversely, I’ve never had a job that requires a uniform. So swings and roundabouts innit.

[-]

LordBoomDiddly@reddit

Most minimum wage retail jobs will require it, and that's likely what most kids out of school will do

[-]

Davski88@reddit

Although I agree with this, it should be noted that most minimum wage retail jobs in 2026 dont have the uniform of shirt, blazer and tie.

[-]

LordBoomDiddly@reddit

Ok

[-]

danieljamesgillen@reddit

School is in many ways like prison, the children are forced to go and usually didn't chose to go to that school. Further, like prison, the school is forced to take the child. This creates a problem where if discipline slides, the whole systm can grind up. So they enforce the small rules to stop any more serious matters emerging. I support uniforms, but no child should be forced to go to school against their will, and schools should be free to expel pupils whenever they wish.

[-]

LordBoomDiddly@reddit

Kids should go to school, education is important.

[-]

bluehobbs@reddit

I doubt he’s expected to wear a blazer in this heat. Not known a single teacher or school to say otherwise. Most of the time they even relax the rules, with no top button / ties.

[-]

HatOfFlavour@reddit

There were always some creaky dinosaurs employed that seemed to think everyone sweating was somehow healthy.

[-]

spinningdice@reddit

I still maintain that if students have to wear a uniform to maintain the image of the school then staff should too, surely they are also representing the school?

It does feel like the rules have got more draconic over the years, I remember at middle/high school that 'dress code' was a shirt/blouse, black/dark gray pants/skirt and a jumper/sweater in the right colour, logos were optional and that was basically it (there was also no restriction on taking your jumper off). My kids at the same schools had blazers, sports kit of a specific brand and all had to have the school logo on it. Complete pain the arse, especially for my eldest who was slightly on the chunky side (wouldn't even say they were fat but the required uniform just didn't fit well in any size).

[-]

bright_sorbet1@reddit

I don't know any schools that force ballers and jumpers during hot weather.

Most schools have a summer version of their uniform.

In primary school it's often shorts and dresses. In secondary school you lose the jumpers and sometimes we were allowed to take our ties off.

Uniforms are much better for social cohesion and parity than wearing your own clothing. What kid at 14 wants to have to compete with their peers in a game of fashion or wealth?

[-]

cherrycoke3000@reddit

I dont know any schools that don't enforce blazers and jumpers on school children. Traditionally Witson was the Christian saints day that marked the start of no ties. That changed when I was in this new fangled 'Yr 10'. Then the Head would decide, daily, after we had a been in school some time. I worked in schools across London for a decade, all late daily decisions by the head. I moved again, worked in several schools, all daily late decisions by the head. The last one my son attended and was to nervous to remove his blazer in case he had misheard. I was also first aider and spent many lunchtimes dealing with his heat induced nosebleeds.

Uniforms are an archaic control system supported by ignorant people. Uniform puts extra burden on struggling families who have to split the budget to two sets of clothes per child and rhe extra washing. Corporate branded overpriced plastic Uniform does not improve society, however much the right wing papers tell you. Children are missing education because they can't afford Uniform. Schools have no understanding or empathy, just show how weak they are insisting they are preparing children for life by forcing them to clip on a tie. Uniform is not a leveller, they have thir own bag, coat, shoes and style. Bullies will find something to bully others for. Maybe schools should deal with the actual bullies, but then the would have to sack a quarter of their staff.

[-]

bright_sorbet1@reddit

Schools don't force kids to wear jumpers and blazers in hot weather *

Uniform puts no extra burden on struggling families than needing to buy five extra days worth of clothes for each child. Especially considering each child would want to conform to fashion and brands popular among their peers.

Uniform is absolutely a leveller. And you are proving the exact point - even just with a backpack and black shoes, and a coat there is still exhaustive pressure to keep up.

[-]

ICantBelieveItsNotEC@reddit

Yeah, I completely agree that they'll just bully you anyway. When I was at school, we were encouraged to buy our uniform from the local tailor, which was extortionate. Alternatively, you could buy a badge from the tailor and sew it on to a blazer from Asda. Obviously, the tailored uniform kids took that as an excuse to bully the supermarket uniform kids for being poor.

I know this is anecdotal and I have no idea on a wider view point, the school I went to had a declining Ofsted and massive behavioural issues, the new principal was so strict on uniform it was in the papers that he was sending kids home for wearing incorrect socks. Behaviour improved as did the Ofsted.

[-]

ContentAdagio9805@reddit

It's because it's visible. Teaching and learning aren't. Management have no idea how to improve teaching and learning, but have to prove they are doing something to improve outcomes. Uniform is the irrelevant thing it's easy to put in a spreadsheet.

[-]

thatbloodytwink@reddit

I cant really say for other schools but the school i went to relaxed the uniform in heat, it would start of with no blazers then PE kit if it was very hot

[-]

Dagenhammer87@reddit

There's some good that comes from uniform standards, but there's also the other side to it.

For every bit about clothing not exposing the gap in family finances/poverty etc. and creating a level playing field, getting kids in the mindset (after all, clothes maketh the man, they say) to learn etc. I do think that it's another control measure open to abuse.

Having been a teenager (many years ago now), teaching must be like trying to herd cats.-.so I can give them that.somewhat.

But I also can't escape how backwards the school system is. Everything else seems to have moved on and yet we're still in the 1860s in our schools.

Sat in rows (like on a production line), put your hand up to speak or use the toilet (like a production line) and then bell to bell working (I won't make you read that a third time! 😂).

A lot of the things I hear from my kids could sound like just upholding good old fashioned respect but then other things sound like a compliance technique that some peopl get job pissed from.

My kids don't typically have any issues - but one thing my senior school did well was to have a summer uniform of badged polos.

However, the constant thing I hear nowadays is that uniform can only be bought from X or y shop.

BobBobBobBobBobDave@reddit

It is a bit of a bind because if you have a uniform policy, you then have to make kids actually conform to the uniform rules, otherwise it takes about a week before you don't have a uniform policy.

As for making kids wear their blazers/jumpers in hot weather, I imagine it is so the school doesn't get 200 emails the next day telling them that a kid has lost their blazer.

Turbantastic@reddit

Power tripping mostly. I went through the British education system in backwards northern England over 20 years ago now, some teachers were like dictator's with uniform. Even if it was melting hot you had to ask permission to take off your blazer and jumper. I asked, they said no, I was that hot I took it off anyway. Their response? send me to the office and call my mum who rightly told them to fuck off with the petty shite and does not wearing a blazer or a jumper stop me from writing?

[-]

Consistent-Pirate-23@reddit

We were told it was about preparing you for the outside world. The same outside world where everyone looks different.

ClassroomDowntown664@reddit

I'm 23 my secondary school let boys whare shorts when I was yare 11 . we also had non blazzer days . my school had a mixture of new/refurbished buildings which was great in the summer

[-]

Electronic-Fennel828@reddit

I went to one of those tie, top button, blazer type schools. In heat like this we still weren’t allowed to remove blazers unless the head teacher felt it was warm enough and declared a “blazer off day”. Which was absolutely ridiculous.

I work in education and most of the schools I work with have thankfully taken a much more sensible approach to uniform. It’s a polo shirt with a logo, and students can wear trousers, shorts or skirts to school as long as they are black. Shorts and skirts need to be at least knee length. I feel that’s pretty sensible and I’d have been quite happy with that as a kid. It’s why I’ve got absolutely no patience for kids at my schools saying that uniform is too strict.

I’ve worked in a lot of schools over the years though, and the general rule seems to be that the worse the area the school is in, the stricter they will be about uniform. Schools in nice areas don’t feel the need to come down so hard. They’ve got supportive parents who will support their kids, and the students in those schools will more or less do well either way. Schools in worse areas are fighting, constantly fighting. So they hold the line on uniform to make it look like they have some semblance of control. They don’t.

[-]

CoffeeIgnoramus@reddit

I'm going to avoid the "Is it correct to have uniforms?" debate, but basically, the pedantic part of not deviating is purely a misguided effort to avoid "chaos". Realistically, regardless of why uniforms were implemented, to put kids in discomfort that doesn't benefit their education and is absolutely avoidable is a sense of control for those making the rules. Not in an evil control over kids, but in a control all humans want, a sense of order that feels "neat" and "easy" to control.

It's not coming from a mean place but it is absolutely illogical.

[-]

Jimquill@reddit

Because they love exerting control over the powerless?

My school was never adamant about blazers in the heat. We were allowed to wear short sleeved shirts.

[-]

LordBoomDiddly@reddit

It's about the only control they have left seeing how kids now can act out with no repercussions

[-]

Dangerous_Bed2566@reddit

We had to have our jumper but we did not have to wear it

[-]

joehighlord@reddit (OP)

I was lucky. Mine never had ties or blazers. Just short sleeves and a jumper for winter.

I run hot so can't remember but I think I used to get told off about never wearing the jumper in winter.

[-]

Jimquill@reddit

Boggles the mind to think about now. Rules for rules sake.

[-]

godsavedonalduck@reddit

Control and power.

They don't need it in other countries in the world apart from like 3, why should we need it here? Oh because we're one of the richest countries in the world although our economy feels similar to Moldova so kids can't afford nice clothes? Wouldn't this be the same in countries like uganda? 😅 It feels Draconian wearing a blazer and tie ties up to the top and shirt tucked in just to sit learning about useless shit you'll never actually need in life.

Non uniform schools do exist, something I'd consider if I was a parent.

[-]

Funicular-@reddit

I'm so glad I went to a school that didn't have a uniform. It's so much better to be able to wear what you like and have abit of individually.

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

Please help keep AskUK welcoming!

When replying to submission/post please make genuine efforts to answer the question given. Please no jokes, judgements, etc. If a post is marked 'Serious Answers Only' you may receive a ban for violating this rule.
Don't be a dick to each other. If getting heated, just block and move on.
This is a strictly no-politics subreddit!

Please help us by reporting comments that break these rules.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.