Has your nation had a civil conflict? The Greek Civil W (1946–49) was the Cold Ws first proxy conflict in the power vacuum left behind by WW2: Communist resistances against the established Kingdom government, proving even more devastating for Greece than WW the impact from it still lives on today
Posted by Starfalloss@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 71 comments
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
Why is there Gangster's Paradise? Jesus Christ dude read the room
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Proxy war as in what? Stalin has sold out the Greek communists in Yalta.
Iapetus404@reddit
Tito want North Greece(Macedonia) be part of Yugoslavia
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Tito wanted many things, including a Balkan confederation and acted on some Southern Slav nationalist fever. Then, it's not really relevant if he helped to Greek communists or not, until Greek communists favoured Moscow that betrayed them.
Iapetus404@reddit
Tito offered weapons,ammunitions,trainding camps in your boarders,money etc.
Read the "limnes plan" where communists want split Greece.
Macedonia be part of Yugoslavia and central,south free Greece.
Niko7LOL@reddit
Proxy war does not mean USA Vs Soviet union.
In the beginning the monarchy was supported by the UK and the Communists by Yugoslavia, Albania and Bulgaria.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Surely, yet it means the sides being proxies - while then Greek communists were not of that kind, no matter if they got support from this or that. It's like saying that liberation of any part of Europe was 'a proxy war'. The Greek Nazi and fascist collaborators were what they were - collaborators, even though they became such for the British and such.
magnificent_wts@reddit
I guess it was a one side proxy. Brits and americunts definitely funded savagery
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Greek communists were still very much supported by Yugoslavia, Albania and Bulgaria well into 1948 with weaponry. Also Stalin did provide covert support throughout the whole conflict.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Yugoslavia and Albania, yes. Bulgaria, not really, no. Although, that's not what a 'proxy war' is.
Again, Stalin literally sold them out when partitioning the Europe between sphères of influences. That should be common knowledge by now.
BRM_the_monkey_man@reddit
idk what history youre reading, bulgaria provided just as much as yugoslavia overall and it provided MORE at the start
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Dimitrov wanted to provide for Greek communists, but since Stalin, it became secondary to Yugoslavia.
More like it provided comparably more by the very end, as Tito pulled out and sealed the border by the 1949, and anything was greater than 'zero'.
Anyway, initially, Bulgaria had also provided less comparably to Yugoslavia as it was a defeated Axis power, and it was on a very short leash with Soviet Red Army liberating it, while Tito had no obligation to follow Stalin or whomever. By February 1948, Stalin directly ordered Yugoslav leaders to cease all support for the Greek communist uprising, which they've simply defied.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
So many Macedonians killed it's a sad reminder.
Iapetus404@reddit
good
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Greeks killed many Greeks too.
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
Yes I realized recently that for N.Macedonias the Greek Civil war is a trauma, but you also need to understand that Greek Communists (and goverment supporting people) had exactly it equally hard.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Yes I know beheadings and everything was all norm, they didn't pick who's gonna get hit. But noone is gonna talk about the Macedonians killed in that, so I'm here. Also there is no such thing as N. Macedonians, just Macedonians. The Greek state agreed to this as well, so yeah.
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
You know once more this is really the Greek Communist Party to blame. Whenever these guys were involved things went south for Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Greeks Macedonians and "Macedonians"(respectfully allow me that you do not have the monopoly over who is a Macedonian) alike. I do not say for the rest of ethnic Macedonians (which remained neutral or even supported the democratically elected government) that things were necessarily ideal, but much better than the people who followed those clowns, the Greek Communist Party KKE. And you know something more: this is not known in the Greek society (that Ethnic SlavMacedonians particularly suffered during the Greek Civil War) because KKE does not want to admit that the last phase was fought mainly with and over your people.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Monopoly? I'm part Vlach part Slavic and still Macedonian. My ancestors where Roman citizens, my grandfathers was born in Macedonia. One in Vergina and one in Florina, in Vergina on his land he found Roman and Ancient Macedonian artefacts and you put "" Macedonians :)
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
ok perfect you are VlachSlavic Macedonian? But you can not use Macedonian on itself as an ethnic description as it does not mean anything more that a geographical region with multiple ethnicities some of which have others do not have any relationship with historic Macedonians aka Alexander Philip et .
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
How do you know I don't have relations to Ancient Macedonians? Ancient Macedonians where not Greek, they where Macedonian. Who are the Greeks to claim Macedonian for themselves? My ancestors are 1500 years part of Macedonia. Macedonia is more Slavic than it is Greek. These people fought and still are there in Florina and other places speaking Macedonian, singing Macedonian songs. That will never die. That is why I'm Macedonian.
scnux@reddit
The ancient Macedonian kingdom was founded ca. 700 BC and was in it's prime 350 BC under Alexander the Great. They spoke ancient greek. All the stories are handed down in anicent greek. The Slavs migrated to the region 700 AD. How can you say that Macedonia is more Slavic then Greek?
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Macedonian Kingdom lasted 700 years. It siezed to exist when Rome conquered Macedonia. It became Roman. Slavic folk in Macedonia where defacto Roman citizens. And Slavic folk have lived and still live in Macedonia for 1500 years. Slavic folk mixed extensively with existing populations — Macedonians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Romans, and others already living there. So nobody is purely Slavic or purely Greek I mean it's insane.
Even more literally the spoken word of my ancestors from Macedonia is the cornerstone of Slavic literacy. A HUGE cultural achievement on global scale. Today 400 million people speak or use Slavic because of that. Who are you to say that Macedonia is not Slavic?
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
OK mate. I misunderstood. I thought you were reasonable, sure Philip is Slavic. Alexander the same. Olympias the same. Whatever you say man.
poustogeros@reddit
Rather, Greek rebels who were the only ones that stood against the Nazis, versus the British/US-planted government of (British-planted) king & company who had escaped to (British-controlled) Egypt during the Occupation and upon returning back to Greece they merged with all Greek collaborators and began atrocities against the rebel population.
TanktopSamurai@reddit
Fun fact: Refugees that arrived through the Population Exchange were over-represented on the communists side during the Civil War.
Another fun fact: A lot of Anatolian refugees were placed in Northern Greece to stabilize the area. They ended up being a big base for the Communists.
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
The Greek Communist party were a master at propaganda and deception.
Brainfreeze1982@reddit
Sorry to say, but if that's your summarization if the story you do not have the slightest clue about history.
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
Greek communist? Sorry man, if I want to go to the museum I try something different to the museum of stuffed communist ideas mausoleum. I might even try visiting Lenin's one. But not engage in a discussion with a fascist nazist or communist.
Brainfreeze1982@reddit
Great reply, to the very point! Thanks for your help man!
Citaku357@reddit
Why?
Whole_Obligation_776@reddit
Happened on both sides. Majority of both nations were used to living with more homogenous cultural environments and therefor they were more in favor of existing status quo. But the arrivals of both sides were coming from more heterogenous back grounds, multicultural identity exposure were higher, they were ready and more welcoming of progressive ideals, which in Greece's case became communism, while in Turkey's case it the progressive Kemalism and the modernization of Turkey became more popular among these groups. They were of course not solid units and these kind of ideals were not popular for every member of these communities. Some of the new arrivals to Greece had faced persecution and had more hardliner right wingers. Same for some of the arrivals to Turkey, such as the Crete arrivals who became the first sharia supporting rebels against the reforms in Turkey (Menemen incident).
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Most Exchangees in Turkey were big time Kemalists actually stabilizing the places they were settled (which were mostly in the western coasts). To this day these areas are very anti-Erdoğan, and very pro-CHP
TanktopSamurai@reddit
Ottoman had been receiving refugees for almost a century by the time it collapsed. So it had experience integrating new arrivals. On top of that, East Balkans was a core for Ottomans, so there was an existing community. There was a strong refugee presence amongst the founders of the Republic (Muhacir Cumhuriyeti would make a killer title for a book).
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
It really depends though, as they're not a monolithic population. Although, in general, emigre populations in Turkey are more secular, comparably more lax, more urbanised, and as they've lacked 'roots' and perceived as 'the other' they tend to be more into getting through education (whether military academies or other professions). Hence, they tend to reflect the things that come with these incl. being more for the Kemalist and/or left-wing stances.
Lothronion@reddit
There is also the case that the sheer majority of Anatolian Greeks now belonged to the lower social and economic classes, due to their plight being refugees and being resettled in a different country. Arguably, specifically the Anatolians had it worse, even compared to the East Thracian Greeks, who at least after the East Thracian Disaster mostly settled in Macedonia and Western Thrace and did so sooner than the Anatolian Greeks, hence they got better lands and more attention, in lieu of arriving first. A good example of how this was not a mere regional matter but also one of class is how one of EAM's major headquarters in Athens was the Prosfygika, which, as the name states, was a large complex of flats to house such refugees. These buildings still have bullets in their walls over the battle that took place there during the Dekemvriana.
Brainfreeze1982@reddit
The supposed kingdom government was not established at all...
dushmanimm@reddit
Kind of. Between 1919 and 1923, the anti-imperialist Kemalists in Ankara fought against the Entente powers who supported the government in Istanbul, but really the fight took place against countries like Greece, Armenia, Italy, and France, and it wasn’t exactly a complete civil war, perhaps something analogous. The political violence that took place in the 70s was named to be low intensity civil war, but it wasn’t exactly a full-blown civil war. I guess the only persistent “civil war” we had was back in 1402 during the Ottoman Interregnum period, which isn’t exactly a modern civil conflict
Lotofagos_@reddit
the closest you've ever been to a civil war, but not a civil war in any sense
no geographical division/no breakaway government/no fracturing of armed forces into opposing sides = no civil war
remove the quotes, the ottoman interregnum you mentioned was a textbook case of a dynastic civil war
dushmanimm@reddit
Yes, that's why I said it isn't exactly a MODERN civil conflict. It's a civil war tho
Lotofagos_@reddit
okay, you used quotes on "civil war" so i thought you didn't mean it literally...
dushmanimm@reddit
Oh yeah I might've misphrased myself
Cultural_Chip_3274@reddit
People do not realize this was the blueprint for the Korean war, then the Vietnam war and so on and so forth. A war that could be totally avoided, like e.g. in Italy but when you are having clowns running the show you get a circus.
xzxnz@reddit
Thank god the commies lost.
CrnoCapor@reddit
Why?
xzxnz@reddit
The communist international had decided the existence of independent "Macedonian" and "Thracian" states. The plan ofcourse was for these states to be under communist control and mostly Yugoslavia so that the communists had access to the Aegean sea (but since communists were never imperialist (lol) they decide that these areas were under evil Greek control and they needed their freedom, so it was liberation and not imperialism).
Greece would be half in size had they won.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Very nearsighted buddy, there was already People's Republic of Macedonia in 1948 and you are actually refering to the Macedonian fighters in DAG. They fought hand in hand with Greeks and wanted not to be oppressed, speak and learn their Macedonian language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abecedar), and have minority rights within the Greek state.
xzxnz@reddit
I'm not "nearsighted" buddy. You should check the dates I'm referring to about the declaration of independent "Macedonia" and "Thrace".
Nikoschalkis1@reddit
Believe it or not, there are people who celebrate this conflict, and are proud about it's outcome. More so than winning ww2. Nobody who calls himself a patriot should be happy about the civil war is all I'm saying.
riquelm@reddit
Bitch please
Really_gay_pineapple@reddit
Romania never had a civil war to ky knowledge.
Lothronion@reddit
This is not accurate, the conflict broke out in March 1946 AD, while the Greek Monarchy Referendum took place in September 1946 AD. While Greece had a Regent, in the face of Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens, his role was mainly symbolic, and did not have the functions of the absent Greek King, such as the ability to depose governments at will, so calling the regime in the Greek State of March 1946 AD as a Greek Kingdom is quite a stretch (and sure, there were like 8 governments from late 1944 AD till early 1946 AD, but that was due to the general political instability in Greece, resulting into these governments resigning, as opposed to them being dissolve by the Regent).
bostanite@reddit
Why do you use AD? Did we have commies and monarchists before Christ?
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Funnily, if you go back enough in time, you'd find out that nearly all human societies were 'communal' in their nature. Who would have thought?
Lothronion@reddit
Communal and Communist are not the same thing, at all, even according to Karl Marx himself, who saw Communism as a natural evolution of human society after the stage of Capitalism.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
If you're looking for modern ideologies in pre-modern times, then you won't be finding it for sure.
Yet, if you're looking for a thought where people should be existing in an egalitarian society, then it'd be a pretty old stance.
Lothronion@reddit
Egalitarianism is not Communism or Proto-Communism.
As for the concept that hunter-gatherers were egalitarian, I think it just stems from bucolic and arcadian mentalities, and that it does not correspond to a rule of the jungle reality on the ground.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
We do have real life evidences regarding the hunter-gatherer populations and how they are egalitarian to a high degree, so I guess there's no point in kicking a dead horse.
Communal ownership of the land and tools were though, if we're talking about communalism. If you're referring to proto-communism as the communal ownership of the means of the production in a society, then such thoughts weren't limited to modern era either.
Lothronion@reddit
When Communists look for Proto-Communist societies, they are looking for more developed ones, hence the choice of ones like that of the Lacedaemonians (a complex kingdom) or of the Essenes (a complex religious society). They are not Primitivists or Agrarianists.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
I mean, not necessarily, no. That's also not some kind of pamphlets we're talking about, and that's not about communists but the historical facts and anthropological findings. You may be a fascist or a neo-liberal, and still acknowledge the said facts.
They don't have to be, while it doesn't negate that the referred societies weren't with communal ownerships.
Lothronion@reddit
Then we are talking about different things.
Lothronion@reddit
I like using it. And, well, if you ask Communists, there were Proto-Communist societies, with some claiming that for communities such as the Spartan Kingdom (at least regarding the Homioi, ignoring the Helots) or even the Essenes (which makes more sense than the former example).
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
More like if you care to read a contemporary anthropology book.
Lothronion@reddit
You mean that in your average tribe in Pre-colonial Aboriginal Australia, for all 20,000 years, the means of production were held by the workers? What production was that, and with what workers? I don't think hunter-gatherers adhere to such definitions.
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Communal ownership of the land and the tools etc. were a thing among the tribes who had engaged in production as well. You don't have to look for hunter-gatherers for that, even though hunter-gatherers also typically engaged in horticulture, if not limited agricultural practices.
Lothronion@reddit
Sure, and we could even claim that Christian monasteries are a form of "perfect Communism", but that is not how Communism is generally understood.
SoftwareSource@reddit
did you just censor the word war?
Worldly-Ad-2244@reddit
Video being 10% of the Greek civil war and 90% of parades and the Greek royal family walking around
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
right.
last time England "offered" Greece (meaningful) help
Lothronion@reddit
Why single out England? Ronald MacKenzie Scobie, Lieutenant-General of Allied forces in Greece, was a Scot, while many of the battalions that would operate in Greece during 1944-1946 AD were Scottish.
Bugatsas11@reddit
Completely caused by UK, then handed over to USA