What was the origin of Ante Pavelić’s absolute hatred of Serbs?
Posted by Deadgoat_107@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 393 comments
Posted by Deadgoat_107@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 393 comments
quienteconoce13@reddit
ser croata, aplica lo mismo para otros casos, es los balcanes, la razon nunca estuvo por esos lares
Ok-Connection-3856@reddit
Whats wrong with you?
quienteconoce13@reddit
soy sincero, son un monton de idiotas peleados antes de que incluso tuvieran sus propios nombres, y no lo digo yo, lo dicen las fuentes historicas
Ok-Connection-3856@reddit
Dude, i feel sorry for you and your obviously miserable life. I wish you all the best with less hatred and more compassion.
Seems you have no idea what youre talking about keyboard warrior ♥️
quienteconoce13@reddit
Ok-Connection-3856@reddit
No denial signaled at any point of the convo. Hsppy life to you mi amor 🫰🏽
shad0woverlord@reddit
as a young man he was already in the party of rights (croatian party which advocated for self-determination and nationalism), but i think the bloodthirsty, murderous hate he had against serbs later on was developed by the political events of the kingdom of yugoslavia. the domination of serbs in government, the serbian king + the assassination of stjepan radić and the dictatorship that followed were significant events that i think greatly shaped his ideology up to WW2.
rrrzrrr@reddit
Apologies if I sound ignorant, I’m trying to understand the context around the Radic assassination and subsequent dictatorship. Namely why did this assassination become such a rallying point for the Croatian people against the Yugoslav state? It seems to me that: (a) this happened during an era where political assassinations weren’t completely out of the ordinary; and (b) it was one radical politician shooting another one (despite their two parties jointly ruling in a coalition just a few years earlier). Similar with the dictatorship announcement - it’s obviously very foreign to us today, but at the time it wasn’t entirely out of the ordinary for (even much bigger/more developed) countries in Europe to be governed autocratically (especially on a temporary basis after such extreme circumstances such as MPs killing each other in the assembly lol). Curious to hear your perspective, as it seems that this period is extremely important in collective Croatian memory, but to me as an outsider it almost seems a bit overblown as a reaction to something that was basically par for the course for interwar period in Europe. Hvala!
treba_dzemper@reddit
The shot men were not radicals, Pernar was not a radical politician, and neither was Radić. HSS was centre-left party with very mild ethnic tinge and a desire for higher autonomy of Croats in Yugoslavia (or at the distant edge of that politics, desire for an intependent Croatia or old SHS state devoid of Serbian kingdom, but they never truly pushed for that).
Radić was ideologically a republican, but realistically he respected the crown and had grievances predominately with the Radical party, ORJUNAs and similar nutters. He would not be an opposition shit stirrer if democrats rule worked in reality as what they promised on paper.
They managed to rise to the forefront of Croatian politics in KYu as both an opposition to the Serbian nutters, and the "Party of Rights" (Pavelić's party) nutters at the same tame, essentially articulating the voice of majority of Croats in KYu.
Račić OTOH was a radical, both personally and literally. But what made Serb radicals blood boil in that isntance was not nationalism -- but Radić calling them out on their corruption and looting.
And it's quite obvious how this is such a traumatic event. If Račić shot one of the "pravaš" right wing nutters it wouldn't have been met with nearly as problematic.
But the fact he shot these men, that the king used it to finalize complete authocracy in what before was at least ostensibly a parliamentary monarchy, and that he ultimately ended up in house arrest despite the ferocity of his crime (it was only the Partisans that delivered ultimate "judgement" on him in 1945 after they freed Belgrade), that Communist party was banned for much less, yet Radicals were allowed to run amok despite this heinous crime, all of that fueled even more grievance towards serbian authorities in the Kingdom.
rrrzrrr@reddit
My knowledge of this is very surface level, but even Wikipedia says that Radic was the only member of the central committee of the National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs to vote against sending a delegation to Belgrade to negotiate with the Kingdom of Serbia about unification (and that particular body included Pavelic as well). So that makes him seem quite extreme, although I appreciate your point on them being in between Serbian radicals and Croatian rightists.
And thank you for the response overall - that’s exactly the context I was looking for (eg if Racic shot a rightist it would not have caused such an extreme reaction, the light house arrest punishment, the unequal treatment of Radicals vs Communists etc.)
treba_dzemper@reddit
Radić was a republican as I said, and didn't see the reality of the historical context -- in which Croatia and SHS State would lose their independence if not backed by Kingdom of Serbia which was backed by Britain and France. I'm not saying he was always right, or a particularily shrewd politician (if he was the latter he wouldn't piss off the man who shot him), but he was not a dyed in wool nationalist as some extremely nationalis Serbs (like this "Aleksandar, Vienna" here) try to paint him.
rrrzrrr@reddit
Fair enough, had no idea there was two of them (Wikipedia links to the notorious Pavelic’s page from the National Council one)
Gloomy-Statement-193@reddit
There were also 2 men named Eugen Kvaternik, you can see some Serbs still saying that we are nazi country and we gave town square a name after ustasha war criminal.
StellarAoMing@reddit
How unfortunate(that you have 2 of each). 😉
Environmental_Job119@reddit
FYI, "member of the National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs" Ante Pavelić and "leader of the NDH" Ante Pavelić are two different people.
As for Radić voting against sending a delegation to Belgrade, he wanted guarantees of autonomy for Croatia within the new state which he could not receive - thus he could not vote for it in good conscience. Nothing really radical or extreme about that position.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
yeah he was actually a saint and send by jesus himself for the croatian people
we did see to which horrors the autonomy lead to
LajaviPas@reddit
Well, Croatian autonomy past 1918 certainly wouldn't have looked anything like NDH in 1941. For starters - neither nationalistic grievances, nor ustaša movement were existant in 1918. Hence, you're a biased simpleton, likely seeing ustaše whenever word 'Croat' appears.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
interesting approach to blame the minority for their own extermination, we dont know anything what Croatia would look like without the NDH who was already prepared for years to usurp, the only way was if croatian people rebelled but this was not case.
i dont equate croats with ustase, this ur perception and to be quite frank with you its quite horrific to read some statements here, pure pseudohistory.
I am yet to see any measures from the King against the Croatian average person that would justify such a passive stance during the extermination of their own minority.
Environmental_Job119@reddit
Cool story bro. Have a cookie and chillax.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
i am chill, this is a historical topic and very interesting time in general.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
because it serves at justification for what followed, you can even just check the comments here and how much is just made up with no evidence at all. the king was arresting and banning all national movements, but you dont here slovenes,serbs or others cry.
the King was very liberal for his time and already moving back to parlimentary form of goverment but was assasinated by radicals.
rrrzrrr@reddit
It does seem that way a bit from the outside - my knowledge is quite limited, but it seems like king Alexander was perceived as “the Serbian king” by the Croats from the get go, while he probably perceived himself as the ruler of Yugoslavs first and foremost (despite being ethnically a Serb of course)
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Serbs despise him too.
rrrzrrr@reddit
That’s often the case for politicians who try to find middle ground between different group interests, they end up getting the hate from all sides. Had Italian reunification failed I’m sure Cavour and Garibaldi would be looked at as idealist fools and aggressors/colonisers depending on the region. It feels like Tito gets similar type of hate from nationalists on both sides for trying to find a balance (which then ended up making everyone unhappy)?
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Tito succeeded for a while, but he ultimately failed in 1)securing Someone to succeeded him 2)transitioning the economy more towards market 3)making the country truly for everyone and not being dominated by Serbs
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Of course, he was a Serbian King and the whole country was just seen as Greater Serbia that they had to call by another name. There was absolutely no desire to share any political power with anyone else. State policy was to with time turn every one into a Serb. All the state institutions were just Serbian ones, especially the army and police that immediately came in with a heavy hand.
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
There was nothing liberal about how the King treated us in "Southern Serbia". In the end, he got his comeuppance from VMRO.
rrrzrrr@reddit
Can you tell more about this?
HealthyHighway7335@reddit
It's a funny story actually. The "mistreatment" was the fact that Yugoslavia didn't let Macedonia secede to join Bulgaria. Today, Macedonians hate Bulgarians fae more and resent the fact they used to be wannabe Bulgarians. So if anything they will just say abstractly that they were "mistreated".
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
That's basically it. The Macedonian population overwhelmingly supported either an independent/autonomous Macedonian state or incorporation into Bulgaria. All the fighters we venerate as Macedonian revolutionaries fought for Bulgaria in the Balkan wars. After the Serbs conquered us, VMRO launched two major revolts, the Tivesh and Ohrid-Debar uprising. They were violently suppressed by the Serbian army and hundreds of civilians were massacred. Muslim villages in the west we particularly harshly treated. Every element of our culture and language was suppressed. The rights we did have to education, worship, and local self-government under the Turks were destroyed. Our schools were closed, our teachers imprisoned, murdered or exiled, our churches were taken over, our libraries were burned. Everything non-Serbian was eradicated.
Sad_Suspect_9649@reddit
Not true. Ustashe were, from the start, Catholic fanatics, with racist ideas added to the mix. What they did from 39-45, they would've done a decade before if someone gave them the chance. Regardless of anything the Serbs or the monarchy did.
wanabevagabond@reddit
To an extent sure, every country has it's looneys. But without the murder of Radić they would never get such support as it drove the center/center-left people to indignation and vengfullness. He was by the standard of the time one of the most reasonable Croatian politician and the serbs killed him, with low key government blessings. That was basically a declaration "we do not give a single shit about you".
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
thats so wrong, the ustase were preparing for years and usurping the nation anyway, they would have killed radic themself to get to power. Once Hitler and Mussolini got power they knew they will take over Croatia.
and political assasinations were a daily occurence during that time, it wasnt anything shocking. The king him self fell victim to it ...
wingman9@reddit
The Ustaše didn’t suddenly appear because of the murder of Stjepan Radić. That’s way too simplistic. Their ideology and extreme nationalism were already there long before that, going back to movements like the Frankovci led by Josip Frank, who were spreading hardcore anti-Serb and anti-Yugoslav ideas decades earlier. The Ustaše basically took some of those older radical nationalist ideas and mixed them with what they borrowed from Italian Fascism and German Nazism, authoritarianism, clerical-fascism, ethnic hatred, political violence, all of it. Radić’s murder and the chaos after it may have helped radicalize parts of society, but pretending that’s what “created” the Ustaše ignores the fact that the movement and its ideology were already developing well before 1928.
wanabevagabond@reddit
I never said that's what created it. But until then it was a group of fringe lunatics. Even Pavelić undetstood and wrote about that.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Fascism and Catholicism dont really go together. Mussolini was very much against Vatikan and its influence. Fascism developed from Modernim as an ideology. Ustase had nothing to do at all with anything modernist, they were in fact the opposite. Its just that they had similar ideas about ethnic cleansing as a viable strategy with other totalitarians
wingman9@reddit
Lol oh yeah check clero-fascism
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Checked it, the word fascism is just used as a catch-all for right wing totalitarianism. The actual fascism was very anti church
Sad_Suspect_9649@reddit
True. That's why I said the ustashe had 'some fascist ideas', but even that may be an overstatement. They were pure religious fanatics, modern day Catholic crusaders. The only reason Vatican can't call them knights of the faith is it would anger the Jews.
KEVicA_A@reddit
Ti znas
Kranvagen@reddit
Assessment is historically accurate: the political oppression, the assassination of Stjepan Radić, and the 1929 dictatorship created the perfect storm for Pavelić to radicalize his existing nationalist views into a violent, genocidal ideology. However, while those events provided the "fertile ground" for his rise, Pavelić’s actions went far beyond political revenge; they were a calculated adoption of Nazi-Fascist race-based extremism, turning a legitimate political grievance into a campaign of systematic state-sponsored mass murder.
shad0woverlord@reddit
thats true, at the core he was an opportunist with a genocidal hate inside him, and 1941 brought him an opportunity to do it all with the backing of powerful countries (italy and germany)
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
Look at the Croatians being reasonable.
As a Kosovo Albanian, I'm still waiting to hear Serbs describe Milosevic (at the least) with reason.
Extension-Owl-2247@reddit
If it brings you any comfort we were taught about Milošević in like 8th grade and it was in a very negative light, as a Serbian. School systems are a big part of it.
dutch_diaspora_serb@reddit
Here you go. He was, in most respects, a piece of shit. Corrupt, fiercely nationalist when it suited him, and knowingly allowed criminal elements (like Arkan's Tigers) to rampage around Bosnia.
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
Allowed? Bosnia only?
dutch_diaspora_serb@reddit
Not just Bosnia. I just thought Bosnia was the best example of state-allowed and state-sponsored crime, which was the entire purpose of Arkan's Tigers. All they did was abuse other Serbian troops, loot captured towns and terrorize civilians. Milošević knew damn well what Ražnatović did.
Ur-Best-Friend@reddit
Thanks, ChatGPT.
Ok_Tie_7564@reddit
ChatGPT knows stuff.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alexander-I-king-of-Yugoslavia
the domination of serbs in government, the serbian king is this ja joke ?
In the process Alexander created a police state that required military support for survival. When a new constitution was promulgated (September 3, 1931), the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated while making a state visit to France. The assassin was identified as Vlado Chernozemski, an agent of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. The Ustaša, a Croatian separatist group, also was implicated in the plot.
Here radics quote from Zagreb:
The whole world recognizes the right of peoples to self-determination. We owe our liberation solely to this right. [...] But this right belongs to all three of our peoples, and especially to us Croats in Croatia, also with regard to the establishment and organization of our common state. We are three brothers – the Croat, the Slovene, and the Serb; but we are not one
ive seen this fairytales often about Serb dominated yugoslavia V1 but can you give me any evidence for it ? Croat nationalists were targeted, not the average Stevo and could you link me any actions that would justify what followed ? Like there has to be some massive scale crimes against croats, considering the following events.
CmdrJemison@reddit
The croatian HSS, the party of Stjepan Radič was banned after his assassination and many croatian politicians were imprisoned. It's a fact.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Yes politicians with nationalist ambitions were put in prison, and the King was also moving towards parliamentary form of government.
"As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated "
The Croatian Peasant Party under figures like Stjepan Radić was definitely a Croatian national movement, not a Yugoslav unitarist one, the HSS was a nationalistic party, just not as extreme as the Ustase.
(and i dont mean this negative (national movements) were spreading across europe all ways, and it would have been better if we had a clean cut back then)
CmdrJemison@reddit
So predictable that you tried to frame politicians who fought for federalism as nationalistic.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
no offense, maybe you should really look into the term "national" and why self determination was the hot shit back then.
you wanna frame it as some multi ethnic party ?
CmdrJemison@reddit
No offense,but you are attempting to use the term nationalist as a blanket judgment to devalue the legitimate federalist demands of the HSS.
I have no interest in defining terms for you or debating straw man arguments.
The historical fact is that the HSS fought for autonomy within a federal system, while the regime in Belgrade established a centralist dictatorship. Whether you label the HSS as national or multi-ethnic' does not alter this central historical conflict.
Let's stick to the core issue.
Are you denying that the HSS and other non-Serb political forces were systematically suppressed by the Belgrade regime for their federalist demands?
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
No i call the movement what it was, a national one.
All political forces were systematically suppressed and as mentioned the king was already moving back to a more Parliamentary form of government.
You really have to put things into perspective, political assassinations were daily occurrences. The king itself fell victim to it by the one he was trying to ban.
The core problem is that Croats overblown this “Serb domination” to whitewash the horror that followed. The average Croat was never suppressed, nationalist certainly.
CmdrJemison@reddit
Ich denke dein Versuch die kroatische Identität oder die Ereignisse von 1941 zu deuten spielt für das kroatische Selbstverständnis keine Rolle. Gerade er als Österreicher sollte vorsichtig mit solchen Aussagen sein
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
The core problem is that Croats overblown this “Serb domination” to whitewash the horror that followed. The average Croat was never suppressed, nationalists certainly.
i wont go into the rest since its deflection.
CmdrJemison@reddit
Du langweilst mich mit deinen Wiederholungen und deiner "Deflection" deiner eigenen nationalen Historie.
Schönen Tag
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
ich hab dir schon bewiesen das die Ustasa von sich aus Rassengesetzte eingeführt haben sowie Vernichtungslager erbaut haben. Alles ganz alleine ohne Gewalt oder Zwang.
hab noch nie ein Kommentar gedownvotet auf Reddit ...
CmdrJemison@reddit
Ladies in gentleman.
In the comment before you can witness the projections of a sad austrian.
If he even is.
Arbeite mal an deiner Kommasetzung. Ist ja furchtbar. Ist dir da etwa der Hut hochgegangen oder hast du es allgemein nicht so mit deutscher Sprache?
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
maybe you should delete ur response and try again.
dein ernst? man merkt leider echt das du noch nie eine Hochschule/Uni besucht hast.
CmdrJemison@reddit
Yet again he's projecting.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
who are you talking to ? you think anyone cares about ur opinion big l m a o
come back when you want to talk about the topic and not chicken out as usual. I understand that this is a very complex and painful chapter of the past.
CmdrJemison@reddit
You care a lot 😘
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
buddy your changing ur comments after my response, dont you understand how ridiclious that makes you look ?
how petty
CmdrJemison@reddit
No. I changed the comment before you responded, chicken boy❤️
Chicken boy was the only thing I added, chicken soy boy.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
as expected and you confirmed you never set foot into an university which explains ur behaviour. Its never to late lil buddy.
you used the word chicken 3x in this response ...
CmdrJemison@reddit
Ladies and Gentlemen, this chicken boy accuses me of never been to university (what is true) while he can't even write german properly.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
explains ur behaviour, its out of my mind that you dont realize that you only embarass urself with such statements. (nobody cares about ur opinion on me, only whats relevant to the topic)
CmdrJemison@reddit
Have a nice day, chicken boy.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
You said that twice but are still responding. Interesting
Im just responding, you wrote me
CmdrJemison@reddit
You still care a lot. I like how your ego keeps you responding. ❤️
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
You wrote me first, check it by urself.
I am still just responding.
CmdrJemison@reddit
No. I changed them before you responded 🤣
CmdrJemison@reddit
Ladies in gentleman.. Here you can witness the projections of a sad Austrian.
CompletelySanee@reddit
A serb king proclaims dictatorship and bans all political parties and you are asking how come they dominated yugoslavia, lol.
Classic serb victim mentality
Both yugos were serb dominated which is why they ultimately fell apart.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
yes all parties, Serbian and Croatian, and i will help you since it seems there were to many words above:
the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated
ur claim is just pure mythomania, neither Yugoslavia was Serb dominated and you can see this with the policies and how it was run. V2 was run by Slovene/Croat dictator who seperated Serbia after they contributed the most for Yugoslavia, while keeping Croatia fully intact. Very serb dominated.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Yes very Serb dominated, the JNA sided with the Serbs against all its other citizens in 1991
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
So Serb dominated from 1991-1992.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
God I'm glad i am not a Serb
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
are you sure tho ?
However, none of the above led to a mass uprising and a large number of Serbs chose to continue submitting to the new authorities. Over 250.000 Serbs decided to demonstrate their loyalty (of course, fearing for their lives) by, among other things, converting from the Orthodox to the Catholic faith, or as one participant in these events described it: “In some villages people fought for a place on overcrowded trucks hoping that, as ‘converts,’ they would have a place in the sun in this Ustasha state.
Slobodan Bjelajac, “Šamarički partizanski logor”, in Sisak i Banija u revolucionarnom radničkom pokretu i ustanku 1941 (Sisak: Muzej Sisak, 1974), 689.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Yep, 100% sure. Being from the literate part of the country, I can trace my ancestors 500 years back
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
funny that you can trace ur ancestry 500 years but no croat can find ur former kings tombs.
lmao
No_Corner_1375@reddit
https://editacms.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/solin-suplja-crkva-2.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Ri%C5%BEinice%2C_Solin%2C_Croatia_20231226_19.jpg/330px-Ri%C5%BEinice%2C_Solin%2C_Croatia_20231226_19.jpg
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
http://www.royaltombs.dk/croatia.html
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Serbia is the ONLY country in the world that questions Croatian medieval history, you might want to look into why that is....
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
nobody questions it(at least me not), thats was just some banter.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
we dont miss you darling.
CompletelySanee@reddit
My father and uncles were in the police/military even before the war and their claims support the image where serbs were overwhelming majority in important positions (military officer staff / police / civilian administration).
Stop lying, serb.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
You wrote "Serb" and "stop lying" which is a logical impossibility. Like saying "Serb" and "stop breathing". They breathe in oxygen and breathe out lies.
svarga108@reddit
Another nazi writting “Serb” with no capital letter and promoting the notorious nazi propaganda “Serb=lier”. BLOCK
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
once again can anyone link you anythng how this affected the average croat ? the demands of the croatian spring were all implented, very serb dominated.
Seperate serbia with autonomous regions while keeping Croatia in tact and denying the same for serb minorites in different regions, very serb dominated.
use logic, and not what ur relatives tell you since they might be biased.
Berserk7743@reddit
Hitlers racism and hate was also given a legal foundation. Does having a legal foundation make it morally right?
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
what ? so we compare now Alexander with Hitler. lets go
akibejbe@reddit
Wait, are you saying that dictatorship is ok if it’s legal?
Berserk7743@reddit
Im comparing two dictatorships which were both given "legal" standing and pointing out that you condone one and support the other, while i think they both are simplly put bad. My position has logical consistency while your does not. You font have a problem noticing that Hitler was evil and that his regeime was evil, but somehow you dont notice it with Alexanders dictatorship. Im courious as to why is that? Is it because you were tought that Alexandar was righteous? Or maybe because he is a serbian and you are a serbian that makes him benevolent? I dont understand how you can rationally defend the position that someone who installs dictatorship and kills political opposition is a moral human being.
Oohaaaaa@reddit
That's a very nationalist point of view.
drugosrbijanac@reddit
Calling Ustase a separatist group is akin calling Nazis "German Patriots"
Trajektolinija@reddit
The army had like 190 generals, out of which only 2 were Croats, the rest were Serbs.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
and ? were the 190 generals abusing Croat minoritiy ?
the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government
the evil serbian satan dictator was already considering going back to parliamentary form of government
Trajektolinija@reddit
Yes.
Former Austro-Hungarian officers were ofter regarded as second-class officers, and often found themselves subordinated to much younger Serbs officers who were completely uneducated.[27] Croatian officers often felt offended for being attacked on national basis.[27] In certain cases, officers were put to jail for not knowing how to write in Serbian Cyrillic script.[27] This ethnic inequality in armed forces caused frequent desertions and occasional rebellions among Croatians in the army.[27]
Also, it was rather a significant minority since it was 2nd largest ethnic group in the country. One of the reasons Radić was killed was because Radicals feared that Peasant-Democratic Coalition will take over the country.
It wasn't just the army that was dominated by Serbs. It was also state railways, royal court, diplomacy and many other institutions. Basically anything that was important.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
lmaooo officers were put to jail for not knowing how to write in Serbian Cyrillic script
cmon, you seriously believe this ?
link me the source pls. (bec it uses a single one), the wording looks very unacademic and yet nobody can show me instances of large scale abuse against Croats. I guess they are in the vatican papers.
RiverNo6782@reddit
How about post war currency exchange where krones were exchanged 4 to 1 for yugoslav dinars, while serbian dinars were exchanged 1 to 1, effectively stealing massive amount of wealth from population of slovenia and croatia.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
the krone suffered catastrophic wartime inflation and probably could not realistically have been exchanged 1:1 with the dinar.During and after WWI, the krone collapsed in value because Austria-Hungary had massively inflated its currency.
i_getitin@reddit
Not to mention that it helped that his blood thirst for Serbs was supported and encouraged by the Vatican
SnooAdvice6644@reddit
He died in 1896. 🤣
ProductOfSight@reddit
Đe uvrede i veličanje nacističko-fašističkih režima. Ovo amaterstvo se ne podnosi baš se vidi da si neki slovenac /s
Ok-Connection-3856@reddit
How refreshing to see someone on this subreddit simply dropping information without implicitly insulting others. Hvala brate.
Mann_Tap@reddit
tak to juz jest
shad0woverlord@reddit
nema na čemu ✌️
ValuableAd886@reddit
Well if past serbs were the same as present serbs, I kinda get where he is coming from.
They always go uninvited to Croatian forums, subreddits, news portals, etc. and start causing shit. Even those who don't cause a mess tend to go over here, meaning even serbs don't want to be around other serbs.
They are also the most common scammers that try to call you about some shady investing. If you are going to be scamming people, at least have the common decency to leave that vile ekavica at the door and talk in a civilised dialect.
But the worst thing about them is that they will go on and on about being victims about warcrimes while at the same time ignoring what warcrimes they have committed. In reality they don't care what happened to their country men. If they did, they would say they want justice for a specific serb with an actual name.
No, they are just salty that they have to contribute for themselves instead of leeching resources from Croats (as if they are competent when it comes to resource management). Suppose they actually got the entirety of Croatia, it's GDP would get cut in half because they don't know how to lead a country. If the entirety of Serbia would fall under Croatia's rule, their GDP would double. That's the difference between a nation that has a modicum of common sense and Serbia.
Lastly, their history is so insignificant that their nationalism doesn't even make any sense. What exactly do you have to be proud of? You couldn't even get the turks out of your territory, that's why most of you were escaping to Croatia. We (alongside Poland) were the ones that broke the back of the Ottoman empire.
It would be better for everyone involved if serbs would accept these facts and submit to almost any other neighbouring country. Go beg Bulgaria or Romania to take you in, maybe you would actually prosper under their leadership.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
i mean croatia is run for a long time only by croats and they are doing so good that the average croat is living in his 34+ with his parents. Thats the average so 50% is even above.
I guess at least ur here on top.
Puzzleheaded-Pear341@reddit
0/10 rage bait, skrati ga malo sledeći put i neko se možda i upeca. Hrvati slomili osmansku imperiju hahahahhahahahahahagaggahah
No_Corner_1375@reddit
A ne vi ste je slomili
CGMarko@reddit
Lack of mental clarity.
Apprehensive-Golf371@reddit
people who look really ugly will often have compexes that they transfer onto others, our serbian politicians all have the ugliest mugs imaginable, especially our pussy-lipped president, that's why he has that need to bully others, because someone shat in his mouth his whole childhood and he still can't get over it, manchild
Cikomirski@reddit
Takvih je na obe strane, nazalost
HealthyHighway7335@reddit
Al na hrvatskoj najvise
Nit0ni@reddit
Prilika cini lopova 41. na hrvatskoj, 91. na srpskoj.
HealthyHighway7335@reddit
Nit0ni@reddit
Tokom domovinskog rata stradalo je 6ipo tisuca hrvatskih i 2ipo tisuće srpskih civila. Za bosnu da ne govorim, u 10tak dana srbi su pobili vise muslimana nego hrvati srba tokom svih 5 godina rata.
i_getitin@reddit
Imagine having a discussion with Hitler but constantly having to remind people there were bad people in other places as well.
Stop. If you can’t have a conversation about this without having to deflect or in some way justify, then you’re not ready for such conversations.
MrSmileyZ@reddit
Uvek bilo i uvek će biti. I ne samo kod nas, nego svugde u svetu..
Aggorf12345@reddit
CataphractBunny@reddit
WDYM absolute hatred of Serbs? One of the highest Ustaše generals was a Serb, lol.
This traitorous bastard was only too happy to please his fascist overlords. Killing Croats, Serbs, Roma, Jews, any anyone else was just to keep his power and stay in the good graces of Berlin. He was more than willing to sign over Croatian territory to Italy, and leave hundreds of thousands of Croats under the fascist boot.
The cowardly cunt fled Croatia dressed as a woman, accompanied by Serbian četniks. Fuck that traitor. I hope he burns in hell for what he did.
FiveDollarShake@reddit
Guy just looked mean to be honest. He looked like my Serb grandpa who had one leg from ww2 and used to beat on my grandma.
Some people just aren’t right. Experiences in adolescence can grow into large problems.
CUMHAWK_Schizopostin@reddit
I'm just a latin american leeching in Europe with no real say in the matter...
That being said, I can’t think of many people that looks like evil personified in the way Pavelić did.
Every_Association45@reddit
No shit. Dude horrified even the authors of the holocaust.
Viridis-ad-rubeum@reddit
Dumb meme that needs to stop.
Every_Association45@reddit
Oh, yeah, he was a wonderful guy! Simply amazing! /s
Viridis-ad-rubeum@reddit
He wasn't, but the "even the Nazis were shocked" take is retarded, incorrect and childish.
CrnoCapor@reddit
That's would be Maks Luburić directly, not so much Pavelić. Maks was a slaughterer that employed the most disgusting and brutal punishments in Jasenovac. I'm from the general area he was born with, some people today still say he did nothing wrong. That type of hatred and inhumanity is deeply ingrained in people. I'd say it's so far that it became DNA. Watching Ottomans do stuff to your people and then becoming a villain yourself. Truly despicable.
Ahvier@reddit
A russian friend and i were talking about something similar the other day - he was wondering whether his people had suffered so badly for so many generations that they lost the capacity for compassion
Ur-Best-Friend@reddit
Who'd he steal the leg from? /s
Novio024@reddit
Now I have a mental image of your grandfather using his severed leg to beat his wife with
PavelKringa55@reddit
After 1918 Serbian gendarmes performed a number of killings against Croatian politicians. They would simply beat people to death with clubs.
Leading politician from Croatia, Stjepan Radic, was assasinated in the National assembly (a kind of parliament) in Belgrade. It was not just a couple of cases, but great many. Serbian state was performing acts of terror to control Croatia.
Ustase movement was a reaction. Terror against terror. They assassinated a Serb king. Once they got the opportunity to lead the occupied state, they performed terrible acts of terror against Serbs. Nothing new there.
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
So you are equating it? It was terror against terror by your account, and the scale of what happened during ‘Ustasa movement’ is understandable?
We will never move forward.
PavelKringa55@reddit
No, I'm saying there was terror that caused resentment and created Ustasa movement. Had Kingdom SHS not employed terror, there would be no Ustasa.
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
No, you are actually trying to rationalise it, and therefore somehow justify it, and that is disgusting.
bphunter@reddit
These are the same people who still celebrate this guy during soccer matches. It's not surprising
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
Soccer matches and every other celebration and event lol
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
it’s not like the oluja celebration march is lead by a formation that proudly has it roots in the NDH rhetoric. Guy just put a Hitler mustache on top so there is 0 confusion.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
reported, downplaying and minimizing of Genocide.
there was no terror employed on the general croat population or can you link any events that prove that ?
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
you understand thats its made up ? Croats made this serbian agression up because they have a very dissorted view on Yugoslavia and want to justify the genocide against serbs.
Yugoslavia itself is a croatian idea, not Serbian one.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
It absolutely wasnt made up. Yes, Yugoslavia was a Croatian idea, but this was Greater Serbia posing as Yugoslavia
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
then link any evidence how the average Croat was systematically oppressed.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Well First he was absolutely ripped off on arrival by the 1 to 10 exchange rate. Then he had to see his taxes funneled into Serbia with very little of it spent in Croatia, while Serbs introduced corruption on all levels. And when he organized himself politically to raise the question democratically in the Parliament, his legal representatives were shot dead right there for it. And then the constitution was abolished and martial law established. Great country!
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
imagine to be so bad education about ones own past, sad when you think about it.
the krone suffered catastrophic wartime inflation and probably could not realistically have been exchanged 1:1 with the dinar.During and after WWI, the krone collapsed in value because Austria-Hungary had massively inflated its currency.
as expected no actual source on anything you mentioned, amazing croatian research. Serbs introduced corruption on all levels lmaooo this is pure gold
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Yes, corruption was unheard of in Austria-Hungary. Some sources have 7:1, some 10:1 I guess depending on what date you use
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
you must be trolling, but as mentioned all points you bring up are anyway made up. So far 0 Croats delivered any source for their claims of Serb domination.
you seem to not understand what happens to money in war time and why the inflation is so extreme.
the krone suffered catastrophic wartime inflation and probably could not realistically have been exchanged 1:1 with the dinar. The money supply increased by roughly 977% between 1914 and late 1918.
Krones were less worth as toilet paper.
really sad that you even take such made up points to justify the horrors that followed.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
As opposed to the booming Serbian currency, widely sought after the occupation
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Serbia was devestated but was the winner of the war, unlike Croatia and the remaining Krones enjoyer.
Krones were literally less worth as toilet paper, by 1918, the krone had already been heavily devalued and was no longer a stable gold-backed currency.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Serbia was nonexistant as it was occupied, so the Krone was worth infinitesimaly more than the dinar
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Not after the war tho, and as mentioned so ofc the winning side will try to get some benefits.
All in all how does this even matter considering the massive economic crises that followed across Europe ?
It was one of the most unstable periods. Austria was literally saved by loans of the League of Nations.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Ofc, the winning side Will try to bleed its New colonies dry. However those colonies Will not like that and Will seek to get out said arrangement ASAP
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
But this was not the case man, nor is there and data that would prove something. Croats wanted to establish and join Yugoslavia.
Croats wanted out because they wanted their own nation and self determination wich is absolutely valid, and i wish the cut was done back then, the king unfortunately went full retard tho.
I am sure relations would be also much better.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Croats indeed wanted to join Yugoslavia at the time, this is true. However they were quickly dissuaded from it when they saw How corrupt the Serbian government and society actually were. If you are thinking in terms of modern Serbia you are wrong. Back then Serbia was very uneducated, underdeveloped not only economically but in terms of civil society. It annexed ex Ottoman territory and then ethnically cleansed it of Albanians and other Muslims. It had absolutely no capacity to rule over a society that had millenia of urban life, theaters, universities, trams, etc. This is just a fact of the matter.
Had the split been made, there would still be the question of borders, and no matter How you drew them there would be huge chunks of people cut off from both Serbia and Croatia. I dont see it being able to be solved without war at the time, so unification was the only option for all at the time, and a democratic process of restructuring with it. But Serbian society was simply not ready for this, they saw the New territory as their colony or prize for the war and the New population as Serbs waiting to happen. There was nothing sincere or mutual about the country.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
The first and oldest university in Belgrade is the University of Belgrade, originally founded in 1808.
Emperor Franz Joseph signed the decree on the establishment of the University of Zagreb in 1869
you understand how ridicilious ur claims look ? but it shows ur true colours. I feel very sorry for you, i hope you understand that this sentiment or perception is not rooted in historical facts but ur bias. (and its obvious through ur selective wording)
nobody was ruling over Croats, you have yet to list me any policies that were targeting ethnic Croats, Yugoslavia V1 or V2 werent favoring serbs at any instance but Croats since it made sure Croatia kept its borders intact and was unpunished for beeing on wrong side of history. You might not understand that but Croats much smartes as you back then did.
I hope you will liberate urself from this pseudohistory as you get older.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
The university was originally founded by the Dominicans in 1396 as Universitas Iadertina, a theological seminary, Iadera being the Latin name for Zadar. It was a continuation of the University of Dyrrachium, in Durrës (Dyrrhachium), Venice, then Republic of Venice, which had been created around 1380, and then transferred to Zadar in 1396, amid the mounting Turkish threats in Southeastern Europe, thereby becoming the University of Zadar.[3]
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Bishop Josip Juraj Strossmayer in 1861 proposed to the Croatian Parliament the founding of a university at Zagreb. During his visit in 1869, the Emperor Franz Joseph signed the decree on the establishment of the University of Zagreb. Five years later, the Parliament passed the Act of Founding, which was ratified by the Emperor on 5 January 1874. On 19 October 1874, a ceremony was held in the name of the founding of the Royal University of Franz Joseph I in Zagreb,^([8]) making it the third university in the Hungarian realm of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.^([9])
proposed the founding of a university at Zagreb, i think you dont understand what an university is
No_Corner_1375@reddit
I think you dont understand that there is more to Croatia than Zagreb
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
I honestly don’t care what anyone who can possibly justify, or think the genocide is the same as what happened prior to that.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
There is no comparing the two, what Ustase did to Serbs in WW2 is full on genocide. That being said, the reason why Ustase even got the chance to get in power to commit their crimes is because they leaned into the overall feeling of the Croats that they were oppressed in the First Yugoslavia.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Yes, certainly the level of mismanagement wasnt justifying what the Ustase did, but it also made it very clear to Croats that they had no future with the Serbs. The Ustase took that feeling in Croats to support their claim for a national state, but noone except them ever realized what that state was about to do to its Serb population.
PavelKringa55@reddit
Calling terror killings "mismanagement" is too mild. But you got a point that there was no future with the Serbs. Cultures are too different.
After the ww2 there was terrible reprisals against Croatians, mostly done by the Serbs. It does not justify what Ustase did, but no side in this story is innocent.
Ok-Weather-6988@reddit
After the Croatian war of independence there was terrible reprisals against Serbs, mostly done by the Croatians. It does not justify what Serb paramilitaries did, but no side in this story is innocent.
Rider_167@reddit
Sources? Intrigued to find out more.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
its made up like most claims here by croats, i am shocked but not suprised that mods are not deleting this pseudohistory 1%. Croatian nationalists were targeted, the average Hrvoje didnt even know anything was happening at all.
crazy that this gets upvotes at all.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
I mean, you can go check out the non balkan history cources for stuff like this, I usually do it because both radical Croats and radical Serbs like to make stuff up so i double check.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
So Croats were systematically beat down with clubs ? Sure, Serb domination began at the ice age
PavelKringa55@reddit
I guess you have some chip on your shoulder with Croatia, but that's your problem. Learn to google and look for gendarmes, Kingdom SHS, murders. Looks like you're a bit in the ice age.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
not really i have just due to my tragic family experience a high interest in this time and alot of knowledge. I dont hate anybody i just dont like historical revisionism, as we can see alot in this thread.
you make a claim --> you have to prove it. (Source + per review if its some controversial nonsense)
this is how it goes within the academic world. We both know this is made up, there were no large scale abuse of croats in any of Yugoslavias formations, both were anyway more Croatian as Serbian ideas and originated in Zagreb, not Belgrade.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Im not confirming nor denying what he is saying, im just telling you to check out the non balkan sources (i usually tell some AI to give me links and i go read them) because people here like exaggerating.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
AI is also very bad imo, it literally always tries to prove your statement, and has no critical abilities.
The most important thing is to check if the sources are peer reviewed. This is even more crucial for our region. There are plenty of good historians like Liljana Radionic who does a great job to counter revisionism.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
I dont ask it to tell me, i ask it to give me sources and links to actual articles.
Then, I check out those articles and do research on how legit they are.
I dont ask ai to tell me directly because of the issue you mentioned, it will try to agree, but i use it to gu e links to articles that talk about it.
Ok_Tie_7564@reddit
Nothing excuses war crimes, but also nothing happens without a reason.
Krembiloid@reddit
I think people like him hold nothing sacred, if political climate was different, and there was a trend to demonize different nation he would have adapted to whatever it was. Evil psyco and a slimy oportunist, I doubt he cared about Croatian independence one bit.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
It wasn’t so much hatred of Serbs, it was desperation to do anything for Croatia. He was a Nazi who supported Hitler, but in reality he thought Croatians were the Aryans Hitler claimed Germans to be.
He sucked Nazi cock so that they would give him a useless country that did nothing other than carry out Hitler propaganda. One of the ways he thought to legitimize himself was through genociding Serbian people. That would prove something, what - he didn’t exactly know - but Serbs dead = More Croatia.
It was the Croats as well who took him down. Awful man. He will cook in boiling oil for the rest of eternity.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
can we use the same logic for Hitler ?
It wasn’t so much hatred of Jews, it was desperation to do anything for Germany. ? You see how crazy that sounds.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
I don’t think we can use the same logic for Hitler. He created the situation because of his hatred for Jews.
Pavelić didn’t like serbs - he hated them. But I’m saying multiple things: he hated them more because they stood in his way of great Croatia, whatever preexisting animosity he had towards them was amplified when he realized he could get his own country and that Serbs were viewed as means to an end. More Serbs gone = more Croatian.
Sea-Bend-5914@reddit
Would you use this exact logic for Mladic?
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Pavelic hated Serbs much more as Jews wich we can see in his policies. (denying kids food from red cross but allowing it for jews etc, Serbian extermination camps for kids)
i really dont get ur approach, or where you try to go with ur argument.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
I said he hated them. I’m just saying that it’s a different kind of hate than Hitler had for the Jews. Maybe pavelic hate was more intense, but its origin is different
Obvious-Desk4573@reddit
I'm not sure to what/who you are referring here. The Partisans who were taking back Croatia were a mix of Yugoslav ethnicities with a Serb plurality (\~44% in 1944), but they didn't even do anything to him as he escaped to Italy before they could catch him.
If you're referring to his assassination, the most likely suspect for it was a Montenegrin hotel owner who was a Partisan and later Chetnik in the war, or else an unnamed UDBA agent according to one author.
(P.S. I'm not trying to start an argument, just a civil discussion, so read my comment in a friendly tone, all the best to you brother)
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Weren't chetniks fighting against partisans also?
Gloomy-Statement-193@reddit
some did for full two weeks, then they collaborated with both Germans and Italians
HumanMan00@reddit
Yes and some of them worked with Ustaše. Some of them.tho remaimed momarchists and fought agaimst both.
It was a mess.
kiki885@reddit
It really was so much about hatred of Serbs. Serbs were the primary target, Jews were second. That was not the case with most Axis-allied governments.
I don't think it was so much about "legitimizing himself" considering that the Yugoslav establishment was made up of Serbs, the royal family were Serbs and the Ustaše had years and years of conflicts with the Yugoslav government before World War 2.
Idk if he hated Serbs per se but he definitely hated the establishment which was made up of Serbs.
Legitimate-City7056@reddit
His stupidity and stupidity😂
AnointedUltio@reddit
Ben Shapiro?
No_Relation3855@reddit
Impotence caused by previous coitus with donkie of his neighbour Serb.
Blue_7C4@reddit
He became an extremist in the Catholic high school he attended, under the influence of Catholic clergy teachers. The Austro-Hungarian Empire had been spreading the narrative that Serbs were a sub-race long before the start of World War II. When the empire disappeared, the Catholic Church remained and incited hatred towards Serbs in the hope that the Austro-Hungarian Empire would be restored because, above all, it was a huge loss to them in terms of property and the number of believers.
Express_Tax_2089@reddit
that is a total nonsense + he attened Muslim high school in Bosnia.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
He became an extremist in the Serbian dominated Yugoslav Parliament, not before
Kukkapen@reddit
Pavelić was probably radicalized already during WW1, which Serbian groups caused. The royalist dictatorship after 1918 simply cemented that opinion. Hitler's methods of dealing with undesirables were copied because Pavelić was Mussolini's puppet, and had to win Hitler over. Thus, Pavelić tried to make NDH into Nazi Germany with a local twist on the undesirables list.
fan_mma26@reddit
Serbian domination in 20s and 30s Jugosławia and lack of iq
Sudden_Cantaloupe_69@reddit
Among other things, he was born in Bosnia and was raised around Muslims.
He later morphed his formative experiences with a weird racial ideology which posited that Muslims and Catholics in Bosnia are all Croat people, and also je rejected democracy as political method after failures in politics.
Basically, Croatia itself was always far more culturally diverse compared to his native lands outside of Croatia, so he concluded that his fervently nationalist idea of merging Bosnia and Croatia into a single state would never get enough votes anyway.
So he went abroad, started a terrorist group. The group was tolerated by Italy, who then installed him to run an Italian puppet state, under the condition that he gives up any claims over Dalmatia which they wanted for themselves, and also to fuck off away from the coastline as far as possible.
(Dalmatia had been its own thing for about a century until WW1 within Austria-Hungary, and about 400 years prior to that it was part of the Venetian Republic.)
So, unelected, with no actual or factual claim to legitimacy; and running a state that was entirely under the Italian crown, and not even in charge of the military administration (which was split into German and Italian areas of control), Pavelic limited himself to the only things je could.
One of these was genocide i.e. ethnic cleansing, because in the Ustase opinion if you eradicate Serbs then winning elections for a party like his might become possible some day.
Another thing was reconstructing “Croatian” identity around Bosnia and especially Herzegovina, which is where all the key Ustasha leaders came from (rather than from Croatia proper) and which were really post-Ottoman lands, with an entirely different history and relationship to ethnicity compared to Habsburg Croatia, the reconquered Slavonia, or the formerly Venetian Dalmatia.
Another thing, which his modern-day Croatian nationalist fans choose to ignore, was the attempt to islamicize Croats. He plopped a giant mosque in Zagreb city center, which never had a mosque before, and built tall minarets next to it, so that WW2 residents of Zagreb could hear Islamic calls to prayer every day.
(At the same time, and only maybe 1 km away, they gradually demolished the old Jewish synagogue, and even made a public exhibition with photographs of its gradual deconstruction.)
Pavelic was not really “Croatian” in the sense that his ideas or solutions were shaped by living in actual Croatia. Rather, he was an immigrant from Bosnia who never really found a way to fit into the age-old multi-cultural fabric of the capital city.
So he basically brought the Balkans to Croatia, and in a way set off to colonize Croatia proper.
And as a narrative designed to emphasize this message, the Ustashe talked a lot about 10th century King Tomislav (a guy from 1.000 years ago who briefly ruled this territory), which itself was lore promoted in royal Yugoslavia around 1925, the anniversary of the alleged historic event, the crowning of Tomislav.
(Vichy France had a similar story, in an attempt to explain how a government that only controls half of France is 100% patriotic, they heavily promoted stories of Vercingetorix, the Gauls and the Romans.)
They also imposed a very particular and made up archaic form of “Croatian” identity, introduced weird puritan language rules, and interpreted all the pan-Slavic movements and ideas that came before them as either wholly “Croatian” in nature, or outright unacceptable.
It’s ironic because these days we are seeing a surge in far-right narratives which pitch Pavelic and his ilk as sort of freedom fighters for an independent Croatia.
In reality, his “country” was not independent, neither formally nor factually. Parts of it were freely given away to neighboring powers. And even the national identity promoted by him literally would not be recognizable or acceptable to his fans today.
The ethnic cleansing was just part of it, although probably “terrorism” would be a better term for it - Ustasha were legitimately and unapologetically a terrorist organisation ever since their foundation.
Their cruelty was well documented (by them) and the purpose was to use that propaganda and terror to make undesirables move away on their own volition.
But he was not the first guy to have had those ideas, in fact ethnic cleansings and genocides have been a feature of all post-Ottoman societies after the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist. And Pavelic himself was a product of exactly that environment.
Early-Importance3047@reddit
Centralization of "Yugoslavian" kingdom in Belgrade, overrepresantation of Serbs in all official jobs/positions, usage of tax money and devise money of Croats from abroad to build Serbia+ assasination of legally elected Croatian politicians in Parlament house by rival Serbian politician (only teroristic case in parliament house done by member of it); thus proving of "Naćeratnije" towards Croats, but I guess, he just woke up one day and gone crazy
ThePurpleKing159@reddit
Probably caught some Serbian dude fucking his mother while raising 3 fingers in the air....From there it began.
Obvious-Desk4573@reddit
Reminds me of this image
elektricni_man187@reddit
Serbs aint black bro
Glittering_Walk8749@reddit
Yeah, not all of them, like 70 percent only
elektricni_man187@reddit
No 🤣
Echobinder@reddit
Švabski potrcko
JCDenton92@reddit
Bc every time you try to do an equal multi ethnic state with Serbia they interpret it as “Greater Serbia” and act accordingly.
ZeistyZeistgeist@reddit
Well, he was a lawyer and member of the Party of Rights, a mimority right-wing party in the National Assembly that advocated for Croatian secession and full independence from the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and they had a small minority, so already, he was at odds with others like the Croatian Peasants Party, a far larger and more popular party that advocated for autonomy within the country, and recognition of Croatian identity, language and culture as seperate, which was lead by Stjepan Radić, who was massively popular within the Croatian populace and was an activist for over 30 years, cutting his teeth when he lead the Zagreb student protest against Franz Joseph during his 1895 visit (at the time, Croatia, then part of Austria-Hungary, was ruled by a viceroy named Karoly-Khuen Hedevary, a Hungarian nationalist who sought to auppress Croatian identity and replace it with a Hungarian one).
In 1928, Stjepan Radić, his brother, and two other members of his party were shot by Puniša Račić, member of the Serbian Radicals Party, with Radić dying 5 weeks later. Račić got a 60 year prison sentence, which was immediately reduced to 20 years, and he actually served in the prison warden's mansion, with freedom of movement and with personal servants - basically, not even a slap on the wrist, it was basically a reward. The resulting turmoil caused King Alexander to react in January of 1929, abolishing the constitution, dissolving parliament, and establishing an apsolute monarchy under the pretense of forming a Yugoslav identity where no nation within had any preferential treatment - which was a lie, as Croatian identity, language and culture were further supressed while Serbian one was not.
Pavelić witnessed the assassination, as he was representing the party in the Assembly, and witnessed the further political turnoil, fleeing Croatia once the dictatorship formed. In his view, he saw the Assembly as a farce, and he went to exile in Italy, establishing the Ustashe as a paramilitary organization under the protection of Mussolini, and the rest is history.
Soggy-Claim-582@reddit
No he was not. This guy was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Paveli%C4%87_(1869%E2%80%931938)?wprov=sfti1
ClessxAlghazanth@reddit
Idiocy and inferiority complex
OdinStorm888@reddit
This is a command, not hatred. The Ustaše were the Vatican’s army, composed of thugs. They literally took the worst possible individuals from every village and recruited them. The Vatican is not a religious organization but a global political phenomenon. Today, the Vatican is the owner of the Republic of Croatia. Along with, of course, the UDBA, which is still operating throughout the entire territory of the former state.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Any reptiles in there? Annunaki?
OdinStorm888@reddit
Ask the pope.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
So yes
OdinStorm888@reddit
Who is this Annunaki?
No_Corner_1375@reddit
The reptile gods that created humanity from ape DNA mixed with theirs to create a slave race to dig Gold for them
OdinStorm888@reddit
Do you belive in them?
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Some days. Not my proudest wank.
OdinStorm888@reddit
Good for you... I guess.
RestaurantBoring417@reddit
Not sure about him specifically but the rise of Croatian fascism and the Ustase is a result of Serbs trying to dominate all of Yugoslavia and restricting Croatian autonomy. Not a defense of the horrible, genocidal Ustase regime, but fascist movements don't appear out of thin air.
If Serbs after WW1 actually tried to work together with the other South Slavic people to build a Yugoslav confederation where everyone was represented equally then we would never have gotten the mess that were the WW2 era Yugoslav ethnic conflicts, which also would play a great role in the conflicts of the 90s.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
could you explain to me where this missconception comes from ?
In the process Alexander created a police state that required military support for survival. When a new constitution was promulgated (September 3, 1931), the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated while making a state visit to France. The assassin was identified as Vlado Chernozemski, an agent of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. The Ustaša, a Croatian separatist group, also was implicated in the plot.
how was this serb domination displayed in everyday life or how was the average croat affected by it ? I am asking genuinly because of the big misconception about Yugoslavia V1. Serbs themself despise this. Can you link me anything that would explain the rise of such an hatred ?
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Where to start? Well the First thing that happened in the New country was the forced money exchange plunder where the government made its New subjects change Austrian money into Yugoslav for 10 cents on the dollar. Then there was the fact that Serbia lost most of its male population in the war, and was in very bad shape. It didnt have enough educated people to run itself , Let alone over double its size New territory that were significantly more educated, developed and rich and used to Austrian standards. So they send illiterate peasants to rule over us, people Who kept chickens in pianos, never saw running water etc. They immediately take over the police and start bringing in other uneducated village Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia to rule with a heavy hand. All kinds of corruption ensue and any kind of criticism is stamped out.
All of this culminates with the assasination in parliament of the Croatian political leaders by Serbian MP. By this time it is pretty obvious that there is no future for Croatians in that backward cess pool of a country and a group of people ready to do anything to get out of it starts forming.
Rider_167@reddit
Source for this? Not just a general statement about peasants as administrators, but actual evidence of these specific things.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Anecdotal report from my family that was evicted from an Apartment so that a Serbian peasant can move in with his chickens
Doomscrolling67@reddit
After WWII, for certain, but it was led by so called Tito, Croatian.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
No no, in 1918
putporkonyafork@reddit
“But ma baba said”
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
its made up, such things would be documented in small instance let alone systemetically
but there seems to be a big flaw in croatian education system on this period since they all claim this non existent abuse, while not listing any evidence.
Neither Yugoslavia was Serb dominated, the whole Yugoslavian idea was an croatian idea to begin with an originated more in Zagreb as in Belgrade.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
I could not find any sources to back that up, its speculation.
It is however, a known fact that the exchange rate in 1918 did mess up Slovenia and Croatia quite a bit.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
this is pure gold, thank you. This comes into my 0iq quote collection by chessboard people.
So i am right, there were actual absolutly no policies against Croats, that would even slightly explain the genocide that followed.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Yes, certainly the level of mismanagement wasnt justifying what the Ustase did, but it also made it very clear to Croats that they had no future with the Serbs. The Ustase took that feeling in Croats to support their claim for a national state, but noone except them ever realized what that state was about to do to its Serb population.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Nothing you said can be proved through data. Croats wanted their own state which is absolutly fine, but this has little to do with serbian missmanagement.
The Ustase didnt took that feeling, they usurped the nation and lead it with violence.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Everything I said is in the data. Serbs were mismanaging the country. If you dont believe me, see what the King was doing at the time, and How many times he changed the political system trying to fix things.
You dont know a single thing about what we are talking about, I would suggest you go read some neutral books on the topic and then come back for a discussion.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
You cant back it up, because you made it up. I linked you what he tried to do:
As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated.
I know very well what i am talking about and can back it up with sources, unlike you. I am still waiting for any evidence for ur claims.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
What exactly did I make up? Go read a book
Puzzleheaded-Pear341@reddit
"Go read a book" is not a source bro. At least say which book, which part backs up your claim etc.
Obvious-Desk4573@reddit
The 50% Croat and 0% Serb Tito did exactly that, and yet modern Croats are statistically very opposed to the recreation of Yugoslavia, especially a communist one.
CrnoCapor@reddit
The center of Yugoslavian rule was Beograd. To say Tito only focused on Croatia would be incorrect.
Puzzleheaded-Pear341@reddit
Its easy to say 100 years later "Serbs should have just made confederation. They should have predicted mass genocide is gonna happen if they dont". There were reasons why Serbs and king were against confederation, and to say its just "to rule everyone" is very narrow thinking. BTW in 1939 Croats literally got their autonomus province Banovina Hrvatska
NoSync22@reddit
Fascist movements do not necessarily spawn for specific reasons. There’s no single, clear cut reason the very party that coined the term fascist actually popped out, just a bunch of elements and layers of many different types which accumulated through the years and helped prop it up, and chaos was a big one of them.
PasicT@reddit
The Yugoslav confederation you're talking about was formed AFTER WW2 and as a result of WW2.
CmdrJemison@reddit
Can't say what Pavelić issue was, but I researched that the Ustaša was basically a minority in Croatia. The leading party in Croatia was the Hrvatska seljačka Stranka with their charismatic politician Stjepan Radič.
Unfortunately Stjepan Radič and 5 other Croats were shot in Parliament in Belgrad during the times of the Yugoslav Kingdom.
So when the Croats protested this led to a state crisis. The King of Yugoslavia then proclaimed the dictatorship of Yugoslavia and Croats were oppressed after this. Which led to the uprising of the Ustaša. Then Nazi Germany invaded Yugoslavia and installed the Ustaša puppet regime.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
90 percent of what people call Ustaše were actually Domobrani, ordinary people conscripted into the army they thought fought for Croatian independence
TeliarDraconai@reddit
The joke answer: everyone hates Serbs.
The real answer: it is easier to hate on Serbia for the things post WW1 than to actually consider the alternatives.
Serbia was the only Slavic country in the Balkans that had an actual shot at independence apart from Bulgaria. So all other Southern Slavs joined the party, but then they regretted it because Kingdoms are not Federations.
oxi_plastika@reddit
Only uneducated people blame Serbia for ww1
RussianDispenser@reddit
Serbia and Montenegro. In fact we are dumb to not take British and French deal about creating "greater Serbia" in the 1915.
All of this would have been avoided if we were actually smart enough.
Imaginary_Plastic_53@reddit
I don’t know what this little thing represents, but that is not the map that was offered to Serbia in London in 1915.
drugosrbijanac@reddit
How is this a bad deal?
Imaginary_Plastic_53@reddit
On the first (incorrect) map, only Vojvodina was added, along with the Romanian part of Banat. In reality, Serbia was offered an even larger territory that included all of Bosnia and Herzegovina and parts of Croatia inhabited by Serbs (Slavonia, the Krajina, and all of Dalmatia from Montenegro to Split). It was an even better offer that was rejected in favor of Yugoslavia, so we ended up screwing ourselves even more than what this first map shows.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
yeah the King was a Traitor to his own kind.
Imaginary_Plastic_53@reddit
He was a monarch who, after World War I, played a key role in creating the shared state of the South Slavs, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (later Yugoslavia). His idea was to unite peoples who had previously lived under different empires (Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman) into one state, aiming for stability and a stronger political position in the Balkans.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
i know but you see only Croats claim how he was out for their blood while he supressed all national movements.
drugosrbijanac@reddit
Ah I see your point now
No_Corner_1375@reddit
If this happened a Croatian insurgency would break out in a matter of days
CrnoCapor@reddit
Šta lošije pizda vam materina? Ponudili vam Slavoniju i BiH koja ionako nikad vaša neće bit i ti govoriš "it's even worse". Puj
Imaginary_Plastic_53@reddit
On the first (incorrect) map, only Vojvodina was added, along with the Romanian part of Banat. In reality, Serbia was offered an even larger territory that included all of Bosnia and Herzegovina and parts of Croatia inhabited by Serbs (Slavonia, the Krajina, and all of Dalmatia from Montenegro to Split). It was an even better offer that was rejected in favor of Yugoslavia — so we ended up screwing ourselves even more than what this first map shows.
Oohaaaaa@reddit
Because the Yugoslavia was even bigger, and every ruler and especially kings are thinking that bigger is always better.
Oohaaaaa@reddit
You are right. Serbia was independent (and on the winners side of the ww1) and the only feasible solution for other southern slavs was to join the kingdom of Serbia.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Jealousy, very easy
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Of what, illiterate peasants?
ZimnyKefir@reddit
If Croatians are different than Serbs, why do they speak same language?
No_Corner_1375@reddit
In short, a middle ground dialect was agreed upon as the literary language of both Croats and Serbs in the 1830s. Had other dialects been used, it would had been a lot more obvious
Barbak86@reddit
It's a made up language based on a particular dialect that sits in the middle. Neither OG Serbs nor OG Croats spoke this language. An OG Serb from Kosovo that would know only his speech wouldn't understand much an OG Croat of Zagreb for example.
haikusbot@reddit
If Croatians are
Different than Serbs, why do
They speak same language?
- ZimnyKefir
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^Learn more about me.
^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
ImpressiveEnergy4762@reddit
Maybe his father was mean /j
No_Corner_1375@reddit
He was from the Balkan, of course his father was mean
pageunresponsive@reddit
Croatians don't hate Serbs. Only former Serbs hate Serbs.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Only those whose families Serbs slaughtered hate Serbs
No_Corner_1375@reddit
There are many good answers already, I Will just expand on a very important point - the Ustaše were not a Nazi project, they actually didnt have anything to do with actual Nazis. They were 100 percent an Italian project, fully trained in Italy and actually came into power through Mussolini. If you read their ideology, it has very little to do With Nazi ideology, its just classic far right nationalist the likes of which were all over the place (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc)
akibejbe@reddit
In the beginning they were aligned with the Italian fascists, but once the NDH was established in April 1941, they implemented racial laws in line with racial laws in Third Reich.
ExiledKha@reddit
One of the main sparks was moving of a whole factory from Koprivnica to Belgrade where thausands of Croats lost jobs
truexpatBeliever00@reddit
Men have hated and have wanted to destroy eachother since we have been on this planet. Its human nature.
Atomicboy097@reddit
Its just because he was raised Balkan sadly! Im from Bosnia and was raised not to hate but to love and hate the ones who hate equally, no matter who or what they are!
consistent__bug@reddit
He loved the concerts of Tomson
habanero_reaper@reddit
after WWI, small south slavic countries agreed to unite in one kingdom (serbia, croatia and slovenia). very soon, serbian king aleksandar started absolute dictatorship (without slovenians and croats agreeing), which meant serbians as the largest nation out of three were the ones to decide everything (basically the vision was greater serbia), and under king aleksandar's regime every mention or trial of better rights were punished badly, a lot of crimes and oppresion were commited. that's where ustashe began, a terroristic group that hated everything related to serbia (something like IRA against the brittish), they apent their time hiding in italy waiting for their chance and they got it in WWII when nazis defeated yugoslavia and used ustashe by giving them their nazi puppet state NDH where they commited horrendous crimes against jews, serbs, roma gipsyes and croatians that opposed them. they also agreed to give 90% of coast to italians (they had to if they wanted to rule), true nazis, and true disgusting traitors of their own people.
Yugo-wave@reddit
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Chewmass@reddit
Cause his mother was actually Serb.
* refuses to elaborate and flies away *
BascanskaPloca1@reddit
Its about revange, in kingdom of Yugoslavia, Croats expected equality while Serbs wanted to opress them because they didnt whant to hear Croatian language, songs or tradition so Croats got imprisioned and beaten because of it. This came to a boiling point until NDH came, Croats gained tool for revange and revange came. I think they suceeded in their revange but they even went further and terrorize also Croats.
Today what im seeing the most is that both sides are too tired of these stuff. Nobody here is right.
mentallyblind3@reddit
Јебеш га
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
I believe being a psycopath had a role in it.
stonecuttercolorado@reddit
Serbs thinking they should govern others.
casastorta@reddit
That is still the case and yet majority of people in Croatia don’t become murderous psychopaths.
casastorta@reddit
Wow, this escalated quickly 🤣
zdubargo@reddit
This post is literally about a Croat mass murderer psychopath who did not want to govern, but to expell and genocide others.
casastorta@reddit
If only Serbs could read, they would not get angry at my comments…
zdubargo@reddit
If only Croats could speak clear English. Your sentence is grammatically confusing, I just assumed you spoke bad English. I just re-read it and now I see what you wanted to say.
Anyway, Serbs most definitely do not want to rule over others, at the moment they are not even able to rule over themselves
Salty_Pancakes@reddit
In fact, there were also quite a few Croatian Partisans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Partisans?wprov=sfla1
stonecuttercolorado@reddit
Fair enough.
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
Nothing Serbs did prior could ever justify or pretty much explain the genocide that occurred.
Honestly it’s unfathomable to me how things went so savage, so fast.
AdmiralMaxoII@reddit
I'm not defending Pavelić or ustaše, but Serbs did some pretty horrific things also and continued to do it. And it is NOT all Serbs mind you. So in a world of shitty people you have to be a shitty person. I mean, Bosnian muslims embraced ustaše for a reason and the reason is Serbs and they were pretty unrelated to Radić
RussianDispenser@reddit
Nothing compares to what Ustase did, even if they were "horrific" enough.
Bosnian Muslims change their national identity whenever they can to suit them, so they are not really a representative argument.
Pristine-Big-1159@reddit
I wouldnt really agree. Serbia massacred Albanians in the balkan wars with 120k to 270k approximated deaths. Concetration camps were also used. Of course that is not an excuse for croats to do the same thing or is the genocide of Albanians tied to what the Croats have been doing. But saying that Serbian hands are clean is a lie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars
RussianDispenser@reddit
Serbian hands are far cleaner than Croatian ones.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
you always forget that every Croat has an PhD in Serbian History.
tompa_zg@reddit
And how every Serbian Austrian has a PhD in Croatian History.
tompa_zg@reddit
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
it doesnt sweetheart i always link my source and i will often use croat historians for my case.
tompa_zg@reddit
That's why you delete your comments.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
i dont delete anything
tompa_zg@reddit
Of course you don't.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
its literally still there.
tompa_zg@reddit
To you, because you posted it. To me it says deleted.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Not PhD but amazing foundation of knowledge on ww2 topics through research.
since my relatvies were mostly affected during this time i had a personal interest in it.
Pristine-Big-1159@reddit
PasicT@reddit
This coming from a guy who's country changed either its size, name or flag at least 3 times in 20 years.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
not 1% compared to what the ustase did.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alexander-I-king-of-Yugoslavia
In the process Alexander created a police state that required military support for survival. When a new constitution was promulgated (September 3, 1931), the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated while making a state visit to France. The assassin was identified as Vlado Chernozemski, an agent of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. The Ustaša, a Croatian separatist group, also was implicated in the plot.
Croat nationalists were targeted, not the average Stjepo. Can you link me the horrific stuff against Croats in WW1 ?
RestaurantBoring417@reddit
It's not a defense of the horrible Ustase genocide and war crimes, but Serbian nationalism is just objectively the reason why the Ustaste came into existence.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
this is historically wrong.
In the process Alexander created a police state that required military support for survival. When a new constitution was promulgated (September 3, 1931), the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated while making a state visit to France. The assassin was identified as Vlado Chernozemski, an agent of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. The Ustaša, a Croatian separatist group, also was implicated in the plot.
can you prove this with actual evidence ? Yugoslavia V1 was targeting Croatian nationalists, who later even assasinated the King.
Can you link me any crimes against Croats in a massive scale that would explain the genocide that followed ?
AdmiralMaxoII@reddit
Ahhh yes " stare that required military support" sounds like something that would male evil ustaše come put od nowhere.
Decembar victims 1918. Radić writes on 30k beatings od Croatian peasents just from 1918-1921. Šufflay murdered 1931. Velebit uprising 1932. Ivo Pilar murdered 1933. Bishop Bauer has multiple letters to knez Pavle mentioning this also in 1935. Sibinj 1935. Senj 1937.
You are forgetting large scale operation od destroying Croatian inteligentsia and peasents. Out of this ustaše were born not from nothing. You provide that Yugoslavia targeted Croatian people and nationalists, Like Radić, eho sad basically winning 90% voze im Croatia. Serbian nationalists caused all this. Again, bit saying it was ok, but it didn't come from nothing. If Radić lived, Pavelić would remain in Italy
anemonaeae@reddit
He’s Bosnian so to him we deserved it
ZapruderFilmBuff@reddit
And Croats think they should kill everyone else so they could govern only Croats.
stonecuttercolorado@reddit
What did Croatia ever do to Slovenia?
vbd71@reddit
Invaded in 1991.
tompa_zg@reddit
That was Slovenia invading Croatia.
ZapruderFilmBuff@reddit
What didn’t they do? And are still doing today?
NDH was an occupier of Slovenia (together with Italy, Germany and Hungary), Croatians murdered Slovenians, just like the did Serbs, Bosnians, Jews and Roma.
And now you come every year to celebrate these mass murderers and their families and organizing mass Ustaša concerts.
You can take a Nazi out of Croatia, but you can’t take a Nazi out of a Croat.
Elmalukat@reddit
Slovenian is a fake identity anyways
ZapruderFilmBuff@reddit
Ok.
Kreol1q1q@reddit
But we don’t think about you at all.
ZapruderFilmBuff@reddit
Cool story bro.
Honest-Bit-8624@reddit
Slovenians are Alpine Četniks. I got refused medical aid in Ljubljana ER cuz im Croatian.
Also pussy nation did on 14 days in the independence war
ZapruderFilmBuff@reddit
RussianDispenser@reddit
This is the first time ive seen someone from Slovenia "defend" Serbia and say Croats are the bad guys.
ZapruderFilmBuff@reddit
Both can be true. Maybe just not at the same time.
ValuableAd886@reddit
Keep talking smack alp serb. You better focus on your own demographics otherwise that Slovenia tag will become obsolete.
Tiny-Mulberry-2114@reddit
Friend projecting genocidal tendencies onto an entire ethnic group is just absolute pure xenophobia. You're reducing an entire modern nation to a caricature of its darkest historical periods
ZapruderFilmBuff@reddit
Well, modern Croatia celebrates these genocidal murderers. They have memorials (even in Slovenija, where they actually killed people) every year. You have concerts, one of them had 1/4 of the country attended where these murderers are hailed as saints and symbols of the country under which these crimes were committed are everywhere. Your sporting events are filled with Ustaša symbols and slogans. Etc.
Forgive me if that to most (if not all) outsiders looks like the only thing that has changed is NDH to RH and the mentality stayed the same.
RussianDispenser@reddit
Well Croats wanted to unify with us, also they technically were on the losing side of WW1 and WW2. As for the 90s Serbs wanted majority Serb areas.
But ye even Serbs hate Serbs.
RestaurantBoring417@reddit
Croatian pan-slavists wanted an equal confederation of South Slavic states, Serbs wanted to unify all South Slavic states into greater Serbia.
The amount of wars and conflicts we would have been spared from if Serbs weren't megalomanic ultranationalists with delusional irredentist fantasies..
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
still wrong
In the process Alexander created a police state that required military support for survival. When a new constitution was promulgated (September 3, 1931), the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated while making a state visit to France. The assassin was identified as Vlado Chernozemski, an agent of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. The Ustaša, a Croatian separatist group, also was implicated in the plot.
RussianDispenser@reddit
Oh thats some next level bullshit right there.
Greater Serbia was a project that was first presented by Western Allies to Nikola Pasic, and he rejected it outright, because they wanted to make Kingdom of South Slavs.
You wouldn't have been spared of a single conflict and the well established fact is that in both World Wars Croatia was on the wrong side of history. 90s is something completely different and only in thag case regarding Croatia yall might have an argument, rest, no.
stonecuttercolorado@reddit
No, they did not. The only people who think anyone wants to unite with serbs are serbs. Kinda like russia in that way.
casastorta@reddit
We don’t have to answer one vast simplification of history with another. That čedo you respond to is right to a degree.
There was a significant pan-Slavic political movement among Croats as a push for independence from colonial status in Austro-Hungarian empire. The most significant opportunity for that to happen came out of Austro-Hungarian defeat in WW1, and Croatian politicians did, indeed, push for and achieved unification with Serbia into the joint state. After all, Stjepan Radić didn’t just randomly blab about poultry and the fog.
Pan-Slavism at times is appropriate answer to the threats from conquerors, but Slavs are historically unable to unite in their struggle and Croatian-Serbian unification into early forms of Yugoslavia was appropriate for times. When you mention Russia, appropriate step today would be pan-Slavic coalition to stop those new “Mongols” from conquering East Europe again but we again fail at it and focus on our own short lived day to day politics and Serbia even aligning with the threat to Slavs.
Shift of this joint state into communism after WW2 was a historical mistake which makes that one big post-WW1 step towards freedom look bad in retrospective. But again, it was appropriate for times and maybe the best move short of including also Bulgaria into the joint state - and that is where we can “thank” Serbian mythology for it not happening.
RussianDispenser@reddit
Except after the Versailles peace treatey of 1919. when Croatian politicians voted in favour of unifying with Serbia.
Also Serbia had a much better option for us be we said no to it.
BabaRogata@reddit
In WW2, yes, because many people saw the brutality of the ustaše. Other than that, no. Unless we count the fact that mostly Croatians were actually the ones who came up with the idea of Yugoslavia a century earlier.
After-Singer9239@reddit
Opet ovaj Pavelic, kako smo glupi igraju nam svi o glavi 🤣
SnooAdvice6644@reddit
It started with Ante Starčević and his writings. Later Croatian leaders simply picked up on his works which kept the ideology brewing beneath the surface. The whole Europe of the time was obsessed by eugenics, racial purity, racial superiority, etc. The coming of fascism only connected brewing hatred with taking action about it. Another thing that helped was that Croatia was heterogenic, with Croats making simple majority in their own country.
So I don't agree with what most say here. It was not one certain tragedy that sparked the hatred but the nurture of hatred and desire for confrontation through the span of the century.
JariLobel@reddit
Starčević was merely instrumentalized by the Ustaša and cited very selectively. The more central figure is Josip Frank, as Starčević's successor. While Starčević's focus was primarily on state legal independence, Frank shifted the discourse more towards a militant, exclusive nationalism. Ante Pavelić, the founder of the Ustaša, was a political student of the Frankovci. Pavelić adopted the radical tendencies from the Frank era and combined them with the fascist zeitgeist of the 1920s and 1930s.
SnooAdvice6644@reddit
Not really
JariLobel@reddit
It is not as simple as Wikipedia suggests. I recommend David Bruce MacDonald’s Balkan Holocausts Serbian and Croatian victim centred propaganda and the war in Yugoslavia (2002). This book is particularly valuable because it analyzes the process of constructing an "enemy image." MacDonald examines how nationalist elites (from Starčević to the 1990s) used historical narratives and victim myths to legitimize political goals.
It helps immensely in understanding the transition from ideological exclusion to violent practice.
In his analysis of how the Ustaša transformed Starčević’s rhetoric into a tool for genocide, MacDonald writes:
"The Ustaša did not simply adopt Starčević’s ideas; they radicalized them, stripping away the theoretical aspects of his nationalism and replacing them with a virulent form of racial and religious hatred. By framing the Serbian presence in Croatia as an 'ontological threat' to the survival of the Croatian state, they transformed Starčević’s political polemics into a justification for systemic mass murder. History, in this context, was not a record of the past, but a malleable instrument used to construct the 'Other' as an enemy that had to be eradicated."
SnooAdvice6644@reddit
SnooAdvice6644@reddit
SnooAdvice6644@reddit
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Precisely!
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Tell me you never read Starcevic without telling me you never read Starcevic.
Btw try googling "do istrage vaše ili naše" to see Who started what you accuse Starčević of
SnooAdvice6644@reddit
Starčević came before this. You are the one who should read it, but understand it too.
AogamiBunka@reddit
Joshua Frank.
As with everything else in the Balkans, it's always foreign influenced/radicalized.
WillAndHonesty@reddit
He "loved" Croatia so much that in order to compensate his political gains, gave big portion of Dalmatia to the Italian fascists
Silent-Meal-9546@reddit
His barber was serbian
Cool-Budget-1029@reddit
Serbs.
Kradembakarsvakidan@reddit
Brainwashing Catholic Serbs in thinking they are soemthing else for 200 years
Sad_Suspect_9649@reddit
Austro-hungarian harsh treatment of non-Catholics. Ustashe were very much inspired by AH.
sendvic_sa_senfom@reddit
serbs were trying to dominate croatia and he used that as a fuel.
hzgfbjhztrffff22@reddit
He is handsome ngl
Tough-Restaurant-447@reddit
Probably serbs
Exact-Quantity9139@reddit
Him watching serbs oppress croats or killing their politicians.? Who knows...
ktyzmr@reddit
Have you ever met serbs?
RussianDispenser@reddit
Even Serbs hate Serbs.
Sablasnijebac@reddit
BlacksmithFair@reddit
Damn Serbs, they ruined Serbia
Madafakarza@reddit
If I wasn't a Serb, I would probably buy you a gold now...
Stellar_Synth@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
anemonaeae@reddit
Yeah genocide is sooo funny omg
Atrocitet@reddit
As a Serb, can confirm
NoRooster6367@reddit
Money.
Stverghame@reddit
How can you look at this guy's face and NOT think that it is a baboon-like creature?
AdWonderful3621@reddit
Poison from Vatican
thisainme1221@reddit
Jealousy is a disease. From personal experience as a product of a mixed marriage between a Croatian and a Serbian, there's a generational almost global jealousy of Serbs between Croatians that causes hatred.
No_Corner_1375@reddit
Jealousy of Croats among Serbs you mean
KrunoOs@reddit
If you find out let me know pls. So I can treat some ppl I know.
bobo6u89@reddit
Its in the book.
crivycouriac@reddit
Honestly his genocidal demeanor is something typically Croatian (we aren’t ready to talk about this)
Dinaric Croats have the tendency that whenever they get angry, they cross all limits of mercy and do the most gruesome things in existence. As someone with Croatian ancestry, I noticed that myself and with other people
When I read about the actions of the ustaše, I wasn’t even slightly surprised that those were done by Croats since these kinds of things felt oddly familiar to me
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 3 of r/AskBalkans "No agenda pushing". We want this subreddit to be an inclusive space and no chauvinism, bigotry or insults towards national, ethnic, religious etc. group will be tolerated. Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
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Sheridan-Bouquet@reddit
Is it typical only of Croats? Did not the Serbs in Bosnia behave as you describe?
Rodeni_Balkanac@reddit
As a Dinaric Croat, I can confirm the lack of mercy. Yesterday, someone parked in my reserved spot, and I spent the next four hours intensely staring at their car from my balcony while drinking a coffee. Gruesome stuff.
vbd71@reddit
That's because Dinaric Croats descend from Illyrians.
anemonaeae@reddit
Facts
donperignon0@reddit
Dont talk bad about this legend in comments, he always tried best for us. 🥰
oldmate9724@reddit
He didnt like communism
PasicT@reddit
His brain was clearly broken, it takes a special kind of psychopathy to do what he did or what others did both before, during and after his time. Serbs also have had their fair share of leaders who displayed absolute hatred of non-Serbs and committed horrible war crimes (and genocide) against them.
Cool_Pay7792@reddit
They were his political opponents, but really he learned the power of hate from Mussolini and the facists.
It's not enough just to have political differences, the other side must be demonized.
Sarajevo2023@reddit
Ante Pavelić’s hatred of Serbs developed from a mix of extreme nationalism, political radicalisation and military indoctrination, and the broader ethnic tensions inside the late Kingdom of Yugoslavia — rather than from one single personal event... He hated not only Serbs and in that sense he was also an absolute racist...
Hazards-of-Love@reddit
Is it just me, or does he look like an ethnic fascist. Maybe it’s his eyebrows…
vbd71@reddit
Many people in the south of Germany look just like him.
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
He lost his shit when some Serb killed his dog....
civodar@reddit
Is this actually true?
Buffalo-Actual@reddit
Its john wick reference..
civodar@reddit
Oh I’ve actually seen the movie like twice, idk how I missed this
BladesEyeZ@reddit
Yeah they made john wick by his story
vbd71@reddit
Probably some blood feud inherited from his great grandfather.
Yes, I'm aware that he massacred not only Serbs.
Substratas@reddit
Affectionate_Kiwi719@reddit
Irs more of question for Kvaternik and others l, Pavelic wasnt not even radical as those.
Yeah, we could find out more by looking at history 200 years before.
And then we should ask how did Serbs event get those ideas ?
Of course they werent popular after Yu king and assasination of Radic brothers.
BestZucchini5995@reddit
He was butt-banged once by a Serb ;)?!
Soleplain234@reddit
He was probably Serbian, but couldn't come to terms with his origin. Grabs popcorn
bphunter@reddit
He drank the coolaid about Croatians not being slavs