Who in this sub has used their "backup career"?
Posted by gromm93@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 97 comments
I understand "don't put all your eggs in one basket", but I also very *deeply* understand "you can't get a job without recent experience". Or no experience, for that matter.
I can barely comprehend the advice of getting a degree in English or Physics except to make you stand out in an airline interview. Being in the military seems to work far better for that, and seems like better advice for young pilots.
Expecting to somehow get a well-paying job while you're waiting on a medical reissuance after losing your medical seems like a near impossibility unless you've chosen some kind of second career that just so happens to be in constant demand and will take anyone with said degree. It seems more likely that you'll forget half of your education while you were away, and personally I used to work in IT where it's real easy to become completely obsolete.
NonVideBunt@reddit
Save enough now so you don’t need a backup career.
redditburner_5000@reddit
"First...get a million dollars..."
-Steve Martin
NonVideBunt@reddit
True, but a million will come quick depending on the job you have in professional aviation.
redditburner_5000@reddit
A million comes quick when you have a good office job too. Plus the meritocracy, transportability, and stability of the career. The millions are the result of a good job no matter the field. Doesn't matter if that's a good accounting job or a good flying job or a good street sweeping job.
NonVideBunt@reddit
I mean, we are talking about aviation. I’m not arguing that you can’t make a million quick in other jobs. In fact, if money is your only concern I’d argue there are much better jobs.
Once you get to the top, the meritocracy, transportability, and stability of the job get a little easier. I’m more worried about a random medical event that’s prevents me from flying.
Inside of a side gig I fly a PM trip here and there and make plenty of extra $. Plus, I chose aviation because I enjoy flying and a cubicle job sounds awful.
redditburner_5000@reddit
That's the thing. Bad luck is bad luck and if you get struck by the medical bus, then what?
Well, to quote a local sage:
It has its positives and negatives just like flying, but it's pretty nice. You more or less make your own schedule and you're home all the time (literally, if you're a remote worker). I was just on the phone with a guy who lives inside a major national park working his remote job.
Having done both, the scale tilts toward corporate life for my wants and needs.
At the end of the day, a job is a job and all that matters is that you're getting what you want and are satisfied with your life.
NonVideBunt@reddit
At the end of the day there’s risk in everything you.. I stayed on the path despite the risk because I really enjoy aviation and really all other jobs are boring. I’ve done it long enough that if I lose my job I can retire comfortably. YMMV.
redditburner_5000@reddit
Same. There's the key. Reaching financial independence ASAP is the goal.
NonVideBunt@reddit
I agree with you. A job is a job and do what’s best for you and your family.
BlueVario@reddit
I'm on my backup career and haven't gotten to start my pilot career lol. Well at least not the part where you get paid. I and my family were poor so I couldn't afford flight training. I studied engineering and have been working that for the last 15 years. I've been able to find gigs that paid decent with very low stress. I bought a couple planes and worked through a few ratings, nearing 1800 total time and working away at CFI.
I'm fully remote making 180k, sleep in till 9am every day and it's easy work. I'm gonna hold onto this as long as I can and hopefully have the mortgage paid off. Then I can afford a pay cut and hopefully get into corporate flying or something.
DoubleD_28@reddit
Hi there, I’m 3 years into my engineering job and I’m looking to shift careers. I’m thinking of aviation as an alternative route, but it seems like a long and expensive road. I’m not entirely sure if my current situation is common and/or optimal, but do you have any tips or things I should know that would help me establish this decision?
BlueVario@reddit
Go get your private and see how you enjoy it. Yeah, it's a pretty long and expensive road but if you enjoy it, then you're just having fun with a second career possibility as a bonus! Not everyone can do it, and of the ones who can a lot end up not liking it enough to be worth the cost. I'm doing it because I love it. Even if I never end up making a dollar from aviation, I will still be so thankful to be able to fly.
iPhones_cameras_suck@reddit
I think for most the key is to get the backup career first then fly planes. I became an engineer before becoming a pilot
DoubleD_28@reddit
Hi there, I’m an engineer exploring aviation as an alternative route. Can I DM you and ask about a few things?
iPhones_cameras_suck@reddit
Sure
gromm93@reddit (OP)
Well, you have to save the money first before spending it, after all.
iPhones_cameras_suck@reddit
ATP: "Don't listen to him! Folllow your dreams NOW"
vtjohnhurt@reddit
Obtaining a college degree develops skills that can be used on a variety of jobs, some of which have not been created yet. Employers know that. The degree is a generic credential that demonstrates competence. That's why airlines want you to have a college degree, and airlines are not alone.
literal_flying_ace@reddit
Not me but a friend of mine. Decided airlines didn't appeal and now works in aviation safety instead.
Neuralmute@reddit
How’d he get into that, what was his background?
literal_flying_ace@reddit
She has two degrees, one of which is in aviation safety operations. Got involved early on as a TA in college then applied right out of school for a company she was already working with as a TA. She's been there ever since. Also flight instructs on the side
gromm93@reddit (OP)
That sounds like a kind of "I can get the education later, if I ever need it" deal.
lainposter@reddit
Fell out of love with aviation, now I'm in planning and business strategy having a lot of fun. My earliest memory of training was being told I was too smart to be a pilot, and you can imagine how confusing it is to hear that after jumping straight into ATP. I never felt like I fit in anywhere, and it culminated recently after getting my CFI, seeing that there was no work, having made no real friends, and going back to the office sector. I'll always feel that what-if thought of if I stuck it out, and I'm young enough to get back on the saddle if I wanted, but it's so damn risky, and unfun, and frankly just awful navigating the industry and eating shit all day.
May consider getting into aviation in some other way, the way that airports manage slots for airlines sounds pretty cool, but I haven't looked into that field yet.
redditburner_5000@reddit
These guys piling on as though you can't have an opinion are silly. You can, and you're keying in on a fact of the industry I didn't really consider when getting into flying. Airline flying is safe because it's boring and repetitive. That's the whole idea. Boring keeps people alive. Pilots get paid A LOT to keep things boring and repetitive.
I was in scheduled 135, ad-hoc 135, and public benefit flying (pt91 but held to contractually applied pt135 rules), eventually getting into "management" with a small operator. I took that path because of the repetitive nature of 121 (and sked135 for that matter) was extremely boring to me. The repetition was terrible. Public benefit was a blast though, and had I stayed flying I probably would have gone down that path. Schedule and pay is rough, but it's so much fun and it's meaningful work with a tangible output.
Ultimately, I agree with you. If you are the kind of person who needs some variety and thrives in a chaotic environment (like me), then flying professionally in a 121 environment for decades isn't a great fit. When faced with the option of applying to 121 majors or leaving professional flying, I left.
That's anywhere, though. Part of being a functioning adult is learning how to interact with people who have different opinions than you, even if you think they're irredeemable morons.
I work with all kinds of people who have absurd, outlandish, fringy, and just plain objectively wrong opinions on all kinds of things but we all get along in professional environments because we are grown ups and that's what we are paid to do.
If you can't do that, then it's a you problem.
NonVideBunt@reddit
Sounds like you never even made it to the show to get an accurate gauge of what life is like. I fly with all sorts of people, not just the stereotypes you mentioned. Additionally, the landscape is dramatically changing… those stereotypes fit the “boomer” CA but we’ve had once in a generation hiring since 2014-15 and that absolutely is not characteristic of what it’s like.
lainposter@reddit
You have an interesting perspective. I wish I could believe you, seriously!
NonVideBunt@reddit
I mean, I’ve only been an airline pilot for 8 years.. but yeah I have some inside knowledge. It’s not really a perspective, it’s really the reality of it. But you’re welcome 👍
NationalLaw478@reddit
You put it nicer than I would have. The guy who has never been an airline pilot is telling you how it is.
lainposter@reddit
I think both of you speaking past me, definitely. What do you mean "nicer than I would have?" Share your thoughts, please. The more the merrier.
NonVideBunt@reddit
You made a pretty firm statement about who airline people are and you basically have never stepped into the cockpit of a flight deck. I mean, statistically most people never will make it, like yourself, for a variety of reasons. I have no problem with you not making it or deciding it’s not for you. But don’t pretend to know what the culture is like or make statements of the people you will fly with if you have zero clue.
lainposter@reddit
I never said airline pilots.
NonVideBunt@reddit
You’re right, I’m sure that’s not what you meant… fortunately I’m not a lawyer and don’t care. I stand by my previous comments. Good luck though 👍
4020_Driver@reddit
I think you managed to prove lainposter’s original point. 😂
NonVideBunt@reddit
That’s fine, the facts are the facts. He doesn’t have to worry. I’m 100% positive he won’t have to worry about it flying with me.
4020_Driver@reddit
That may be, but I from what I’ve observed, I’m glad I’ll never have to worry about flying with you either.
NonVideBunt@reddit
That’s ok, something tells me I’m not missing out on anything.
NonVideBunt@reddit
At the end of the day, really you quit for all the same reasons most people did. You just couldn’t hack it.. it requires a lot of determination to cross the finish line… dedication, hard work, starting at the bottom and making sacrifices, taking risk, etc. Frankly, your whole post sounds like making excuses and you trying to validate why you quit. At the end of the day, you quit, and that’s fine.
lainposter@reddit
You have an interesting way of framing things.
NonVideBunt@reddit
I’m just going off what you said, you quit. And posted a lot of reasons why. And I said, good, you are like most people, most don’t end up making it for a lot of reasons (fact), and my personal feeling is you’re just posting to validate your feelings.
I’m started by saying you have zero clue (about the culture and personalities you will fly with, which is true, you never got to find out). Really that’s it. Not much more to it. We have a calling, business strategy isn’t mine, that sounds boring and awful.
TheSkyFlier@reddit
I got my A&P as well as my commercial license. Right now I’m working as an A&P and enjoying the work very much. It’s a small local shop so I also get treated like the corporate pilot for the company. I also get to fly the owner’s plane for free if I wish, which is probably the best benefit you could ever get from a job imo. I still get plenty of hours, and some good real-world experience. I’ve got my CFI ride this week, and hopefully being an independent CFI on the side works well enough that I can only work part-time as a mechanic.
SlowDownToGoDown@reddit
I did this after 9/11 when I was a freshly minted CFI and A&P.
Paid the bills with the A&P and did the indy CFI gig.
At the psiton GA shop I worked at, it was an incredible networking opportunity. Prospective students walk in? I was there to chat with them. Owner getting his annual done also needs a Flight Review? Sure, let's do it next week. Etc, etc.
Good luck with your career.
TheSkyFlier@reddit
Yeah networking opportunities have been insane. I’ve already got telling me to call them once I get my CFI so they can do their biannual when it’s due.
Feeling_Ad_1034@reddit
Sales for like 20 years now I renewed the CFI and I'm about to hit 1000... just in time for the ol' shortage to be completely gone. Yippieeee.. wanna buy something?
SkinnyWheel1357@reddit
I always figured that if someone was good at sales, at the worst they could do full commission sales of windows and vinyl siding while looking for that ever elusive expense account corporate sales job.
lainposter@reddit
Hey man, welcome to the club. At least you want the career, right? The passion to stick it out.
hyacinthhusband@reddit
I know a couple of dispatchers who were airline pilots before having medical disqualifications.
It’s not a perfect backup option because an industry wide event would also affect dispatching jobs, but it’s an easy backup option as the book knowledge necessary for an ATP is very close to what dispatch need to know (though not in as much detail as a dispatcher would know it).
I got my dispatch cert in college and it only took a few extra classes and a checkride on top of the existing degree requirements.
JohnKimbler@reddit
Electrician here. Was furloughed during Covid and was employed for over a year during that period.
Necessary_Topic_1656@reddit
i got my Enrolled Agent designation from the IRS during the pandemic and i have been doing tax compliance and representation on the side ever since.
a few tax returns during an overnight in the hotel nets me just about the same pay as a 3-day trip.
it came in handy when i lost my medical when i broke my arm during a skiing trip earlier this year and was grounded until the arm fracture healed.
i got to do my backup as the primary for the first time this past tax season... it was pretty good practice for retirement in a couple of years.
it took about 3 months to get my medical back but im finally getting back to flying the line again.
AtrophiedTraining@reddit
How is doing people's tax returns so profitable? TurboTax charges like 100$. I wouldn't have thought that a Real person doing it would be more than 400$?
Necessary_Topic_1656@reddit
you have a simple return then.
but your other pilots who have LLCs and hire their kids as employees with way over complicated tax structures…
or when you get an IRS notice and need representation or assistance in apply for first time penalty abatement then you might want someone to handle that for you or you can do it yourself.
I start a $1500 for a return.
AtrophiedTraining@reddit
That makes sense and I can see how that could get complicated quickly. Very cool.
PrayForWaves117@reddit
You spend 1.4k to save 70k on taxes. When you have planes and property it gets complicated.
HoldinTheBag@reddit
Business Management paired with my flight training got me a foot in the door to Airport Ops. Flying propositions were so ugly for a recent grad in 2010 that I ended up doing airport ops for 6 years
TheBuff66@reddit
I double majored in English and Philosophy and I can assure you, companies don’t care. The most interest I’ve gotten so far has been “what’s the last book you’ve read.” I was fortunate to use both degrees as an editor before flying but that’s very very rare. The “fall back” would be some type of advanced degree like a JD or Masters in Education
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
What’s the last book you’ve read?
TheBuff66@reddit
Fear and Trembling by Kierkegaard. Worth the read
Cdraw51@reddit
I have a degree in Strategic Communications. I have retained exactly zero knowledge from that major, and I have never held a relevant job in that field in my entire life. Sure hope this flying thing continues to work out!
TheBuff66@reddit
CNN always needs a talking head when Delta has a go-around!
Cdraw51@reddit
Harrowing: Watch as Delta Flight Aborts Landing Due to "Unstable" Conditions
mattrichor@reddit
I lost my medical in late 2021. By late 2022 I was working as a software engineer, something that id always dabbled in but needed to bust ass to learn more since I was out of a job.
This career can come to a screeching halt for a number of reasons. It's good to be prepared for that
machinegunlaugh3@reddit
I may be a bit backwards. I have 7 years into an HR career, HR degree, SHRM-CP, etc. absolutely hated it. Quit. Decided to go back to school for A&P and am learning to fly for fun. I always enjoyed aviation when I was in the USMC air wing as an ordnanceman on F18s. So it feels like coming home almost.
The money no longer matters to me like it once did. It’s not worth the grind imo. I am choosing to be poor and do what I enjoy over doing something simply for the paycheck and job security.
Nothing is worth hating your own life.
gromm93@reddit (OP)
This. There's a lot of career changers in aviation, but I don't really think that counts as "backup career". I mean the constant stream of advice aimed at teenagers who go straight into ATP, to "have a backup career". Why not buff your resume by volunteering for the Red Cross instead? Or serving in the national guard? Nah, it's gotta get a degree in "something useful" instead. As a backup in case your singular dedication to a task is a bad thing.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
haha this is funny to see after our comment chain
either way. is the answer gonna change anything about how you approach things right now/going forwards?
I also don’t really believe in back up career etc though lol. or, I don’t think you should rely on one. if you wanna fly and you’re deciding on a major, aviation seems as good a pick as any. make yourself more competitive for the job you actually want! don’t get some other malarkey that won’t matter.
and make sure you get to somewhere with long term disability/medical loss insurance ASAP lol
sox412@reddit
I used my Econ degree to do aviation economic consulting 🤷♀️
Gold-Weather_69@reddit
Doing it right now until the industry gets better…
JumboTrijet@reddit
International Shower Curtain salesman
gromm93@reddit (OP)
And now you've moved on to radical physics experiments and psychological testing for astronauts?
4020_Driver@reddit
I guess that’d be me. Had some instrument checkride failures while I was going to school to get my A&P a couple years after 9-11. Medicaled out of flying (pilot, nav or aircrew) for the DoD (in any capacity actuallly-asthma). The ride failures precluded a flying career post 9-11 and especially after 2008.
I’ve turned wrenches on aircraft as an A&P/IA/Avionics for the last 20 years, and can’t say that I really have enjoyed my aviation career. Currently working toward farming full time and real estate investing and planning leaving aviation as a career in the next few years.
Cass256@reddit
Have you ever flown a part 103 aircraft? I’m getting my A&P, no longer aiming for a pilot career, but still fly as a hobby. Being able to fly recreationally helps me enjoy working on planes
4020_Driver@reddit
I have a Baron, it’s not Part 103, but BasicMed. I enjoy the flying, but I guess I’m burned out from Mx from the mediocre pay and treatment that most Mx gets within the industry.
lainposter@reddit
Thank you for your perspective.
Jolly_Cicada380@reddit
Got my ratp then got furloughed during Covid now working in it - would like to come back but market is trash rn
Huge_Analysis_1298@reddit
Yeah I lost my job to Covid and went back truck driving I'm a pilot again now tho thankfully!!
DuelingPushkin@reddit
This sub is probably the worst place to ask this as people who had to leave flying for a different career are likely not active in a flying sub unless they did it on their own terms and still fly as a hobby
Physical-Program-509@reddit
There’s already a dude getting berated by some major airline pilots for saying he fell out of love with flying before making to a 121; the gist being he can’t have a valid opinion without making it to the major first
Which we preclude the overwhelming majority of pilots from having any opinions
BrtFrkwr@reddit
I have several times. A&P mechanic, simulator and ground school instructor, welder.
gromm93@reddit (OP)
"Welder" I get, and A&P, sure, but the others are basically "aviation".
BrtFrkwr@reddit
It's not flying.
gromm93@reddit (OP)
Did you need a bachelor's degree to get there though?
PNESSWrinkle@reddit
During one of my furloughs I found myself wrenching on tow trucks and installing laminate flooring. On paper they were never backup careers but definitely kept some bills paid for a bit until I got a flying gig.
paulyshorebreak@reddit
I was on a special issuance medical for a while and went back to bartending while I waited for all the bureaucracy to do its thing.
If I couldn't fly any more, I would bartend again until I figured out the next move. Would likely try for a medical position that only requires an associates.
redditburner_5000@reddit
I did. I'm a big believer in the backup options. A lot of stuff you do flying will translate if you know how to tell your story through the resume.
It's a lot harder to do if you're just the kind of person who merely aspires to go to work, fly, and go home. Any extra stuff you do (union, side business, volunteer, etc) helps.
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
After I finish my CFI I'm going to start on my A&P because I do not expect to immediately find a job as a CFI.... lol. Already pivoted from the military.
StillAnxious2493@reddit
backup career, sure, but they all want fresh experience too. everything’s disposable now, impossible to pivot in this job mess
lainposter@reddit
It's pretty fucked now, but it's all about framing, in my experience. There's a lot you gain from getting licensed, lot of soft skills that places love to see.
gromm93@reddit (OP)
My point exactly, but it's also been that way my whole life, and I'm not even young at all.
No-Cell-8208@reddit
This guy, but that was because I got out of college right after 9/11. Nobody hired pilots for a decade, and for most of the next decade pay was poverty level. I’m happy and fly my own plane now.
First-Length6323@reddit
I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Now im an airline pilot instead. Does that count as a backup career?
MadeForThisOnePostt@reddit
Yes
bustervich@reddit
I have a degree in Physics! If I wanted a career in physics, I’d need to get my masters and then my PhD.
Off the top of my head I could probably teach high school level calculus or physics, but that also would require certain certifications from whatever state. I wouldn’t be rolling in cash, but it would pay the bills (barely).
ThatOnePilotDude@reddit
Currently using mine and have been for the past few months because I can’t find a CFI job.
Environmental_Image9@reddit
I know someone that was laid off during covid and returned to the same engineering firm he worked at ten years prior. He stayed there for about six months until he got another piloting offer and returned to flying.
As you’ve noted, having relevant industry is important, and also so is maintaining good relationships.
But even if you were restarting from scratch with only just a degree, I’d rather be out of luck in aviation with credentials in another field I’d be okay to have a career in, as opposed to not having said credentials.
gromm93@reddit (OP)
Hah. Was his dad the CEO of the company or something? I would totally expect HR to say "this guy isn't going to be worth onboarding, because he'll leave the moment the airlines are hiring again."
InternationalSort714@reddit
My “backup” career is as a union electrician which was my first career that I used to pay for all my flight training and living expenses with cash. No debt 🤘 Getting a bachelors in applied leadership soon as well to help pad my resume for when I apply to the legacy airlines. The knowledge from the degree will be useful as well and it does open up doors for other careers that are relatively low paying, but an option nonetheless.
Discon777@reddit
Yeah, teaching. Constant demand and can use people with degrees in things like education, physics, English, etc that are relatively easy to get spooled up on if needed. Getting credentialed is a whole other ball game but depending on where you’re at and the needs at the time, many school districts allow “emergency authorizations” of sorts and work with you to get credentialed if you do it long term. Came really in handy back during Covid, plus a degree in education can be really useful in the aviation world too.
aftcg@reddit
Used my geology degree proofing environmental impact statements while furloughed and after both downgrades. I paid all my bills, and saved up to buy a citabria while on furlough. I hated every second of working in the office. Remote work wasn't a thing in the olden days after 9/11
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I understand "don't put all your eggs in one basket", but I also very *deeply* understand "you can't get a job without recent experience". Or no experience, for that matter.
I can barely comprehend the advice of getting a degree in English or Physics except to make you stand out in an airline interview. Being in the military seems to work far better for that, and seems like better advice for young pilots.
Expecting to somehow get a well-paying job while you're waiting on a medical reissuance after losing your medical seems like a near impossibility unless you've chosen some kind of second career that just so happens to be in constant demand and will take anyone with said degree. It seems more likely that you'll forget half of your education while you were away, and personally I used to work in IT where it's real easy to become completely obsolete.
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