Why does the Montenegrin language exist as a concept?

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Senior-Profession711@reddit

Millions of Latin Americans call their language Spanish, while in the Balkans every village wants to have its own language. Montenegrins want to be a separate people, different from Serbs, and that's why they don't want to call their language Serbian.

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dobrits@reddit

Same thing for … you know who.

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Tropadol@reddit

Internation linguistic concensus outside of bulgaria agrees that standard macedonian and standard bulgarian are two separate distinct languages.

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canyoubelieveitt@reddit

International historical consensus outside of Macedonia is that Samuil was a Bulgarian king and Goce Delchev was a Bulgarian revolutionary. Do you quote this as well?

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markohf12@reddit

Samuil, yes.

Goce Delchev not yet, waiting on the historical commission for that.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Wait what, first time I am seeing Macedonian admiting that Tsar Samuil was Tsar of Bulgarian Empire :D

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markohf12@reddit

There are some things that are factually correct, supported by facts. I based my views only on facts, not nationalist views.

Tsar Samuil being the Tsar of Bulgarian Empire is factually correct and has nothing to do with the modern Macedonian identity.

Goce Delchev identified at one point as Bulgarian, is also factually correct, but so is his identity as Macedonian and views towards the Macedonian identify to be separate than the Bulgarian one as he was anti-Tsar - this is also factually correct.

I am now curious about what do you think of Miladinovi Brothers?

Bulgarian, their biggest work is Bulgarian Folk Songs, also this is not disputed in Macedonia, I learned in school that they identified as Bulgarian.

There are some stuff that are factually incorrect originating from the Bulgarian side such as: Macedonian language exists from 1945 and is derived from Bulgarian. This is factually incorrect in every single way.

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originalno_ime@reddit

Bullshit, outside of the commission and northmacedonian historiography , he is recognised as Bulgarian, there is undeniable evidence he identified as such .

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Does the linguistic consensus inside Macedonia not agree that Macedonian came from Bulgarian, though?

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markohf12@reddit

Macedonian did not came from Bulgarian, this is the view outside and inside Macedonia (excl. Bulgaria of course).

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Where did it come from lol?

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markohf12@reddit

Not Bulgaria obv.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

What are we looking at? Those are classifications.

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markohf12@reddit

You are looking at the language family. Here is what that means:

A language family is a group of languages related through descent from a common ancestor, called the proto-language of that family.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Yeah the language family is Indo-European, the foundational language of which is Proto Indo-European. And the other terms below it are the subfamilies, branches, sub-branches, and groups within it. This doesn't answer my question though. Where does Macedonian come from?

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damjan193@reddit

The same place Bulgarian and Serbian came from. I don't know what's so difficult to understand?

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

It's not difficult at all and I understand it good. But why don't you tell me more, what happened for those languages to form, when, where, how, I'd like to hear.

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damjan193@reddit

Nothing needs to "happen" for a language to form, language forms organically. The fact that Bulgarians institutionalized their language sooner that we did ours doesn't mean that our came from yours. There are numerous languages that were never even formally or officially used but that doesn't mean they don't exist or were created as someone's spin off. See Spain and its dozen different (but similar) languages as an example.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Okay, you are going in the wrong direction. I'm not starting a "whose language is older" competition based on when it became a language, i.e when it was standardized. For all intents and purposes we can use the term "speech" instead of language because those speeches existed long before they were standardized into languages. But seeing that you said Macedonian, Bulgarian and Serbian came from the same place, please do explain how those speeches became distinct, when, how, why. Obviously geography, neighbouring ethnicities, preferences, customs, and other aspects play a natural role, but saying "nothing" needs to happen is just lazy explanation.

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damjan193@reddit

Bro what are you even getting at then? If you can't accept that nothing needs to happen for a language to form then accept that it's a whole lot usually impossible to number. How was Italian language created can you explain in a sentence? Like I said a language isn't something you can create out of thin air, it's a (very) long term process and highly organic thing.

I don't understand what your point is tbh, so please state it. If it's not a competition of "who's language is older" (I agree it's not but usually that's what other Bulgarians try to claim) then what is your point? You're only asking questions that lead to nowhere.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

I also didn't quite understand your question about Italian. Italian language is based on the Tuscan dialect that was spread throughout all of Italy during its unification. I mentioned it is not about standardisation so I imagine you are asking me how the Italian dialetti which are pretty much distinct speeches came to be from their common origin of Latin? Or what? My point being that Macedonian didn't come from Bulgarian because Bulgarian is a modern language. It came from Old Bulgarian. Somewhere in-between Old and Modern Bulgarian, Macedonian separated as a distinct speech much like how the Italian dialetti separated from each other. There is still a dialectal continuum, as you go further east, the Eastern dialects of Macedonian and Western dialects of Bulgarian were more intelligible.

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damjan193@reddit

Forget Italian, I see your point now. It's not correct though. What is Old Bulgarian to you? Church Slavonic?

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Oh, my bad. This was already mentioned but it was with the other person in the thread, not with you. I stated that Old Slavonic is Old Bulgarian. The language in which the 10th century Medieval Bulgarian authors like Chernorizets Hrabar, Ioan Ekzarh, Kozma Prezviter and Konstantin Preslavski wrote in. It came before Middle Bulgarian (12th-16th c) and Modern Bulgarian (after 16th c)

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damjan193@reddit

I always found it perplexing how Bulgarians call the Turkic Bulgar tribes "Old Bulgarians" but also refer to Old Slavic as "Old Bulgarian". The Old Bulgarians were not Slavic and they did not speak Slavic so how can Old Bulgarian be the same as Old Church Slavonic?

Even if we put that flawed logic aside, I haven't seen the works of all of the people you mentioned but Chernorizec Hrabar clearly refered to the language in "О Писменех" as Slavic, I assume everybody in that period called it as such. I'm sorry, but it's wrong to call Old Church Slavonic "Old Bulgarian".

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

What are "Old Bulgarians"? We call them Proto-Bulgarians (also known as Bulgars in English) and they have nothing to do with this.

Old Bulgarian is the same as Old Church Slavonic because this was the language of the First Bulgarian Empire, you know... where the Bulgarian ethnicity was formed in the 9th century. Where all of those Slavs, Proto Bulgarians and whatever was left of all other tribes that had populated the lands before the 7th century such as Thracians, Celts, Goths, Avars, etc lived. Where during the rule of Knyaz Boris 1 the Bulgarian identity was institutionalized through the replacement of the various forms of paganism with Christianity, the formation of a single state church, the founding of literary schools and formalising the language and it's writing, and the cultural exchange and gradual assimilation into a single nation. Not that you believe this one bit anyway, for you the Medieval Bulgarian period was probably some occupation or slavery where the Bulgarians stole your culture and tried to assimilate you but you held strong and remained Macedonian Slavs for the next 1000 years until the 20th century when you became independent. You guys are so confusing to me.

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damjan193@reddit

Ah, so it's Proto Bulgarians then. I've seen some Bulgarians refer to them as Old Bulgarians so it gets confusing sometimes.

●"for you the Medieval Bulgarian period was probably some occupation or slavery where the Bulgarians stole your culture and tried to assimilate you."

No, but there is definitely some serious reaching in your statement about Old Bulgarian. Remember how I said just because you were the first to institutionalize it doesn't mean our language came from Bulgarian? I didn't just mean institutionalization in modern Bulgaria but in Medieval Bulgaria as well. Because that's exactly what Medieval Bulgaria did, they institutionalized an already existing language, Slavic, for political reasons. The language did not need institutionalization to exist, it was already there spoken by the Slavs. And even when the language was made official within Medieval Bulgaria, the important people we all know refered to it as Slavic. Was Medieval Bulgaria the first to make the language official and helped immensly? Absolutely, no serious historian disagrees with this. But Medieval Bulgaria simply took advantage of an already existing language to strentghen its position with the Slavs, it did not create a distinct language of its own and was not referd to as Bulgarian. Calling Old Church Slavonic Old Bulgarian is super reaching in my opinion.

I won't get into how the Bulgarian nation was created in the 8th-9th century when nationhood as a concept was created in the 18th-19th century. Very few considered themselves Bulgarian back in medieval times, probably only the rulling class.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

The final paragraph is where your notion of ethno-linguistics falters in this polemic. Sure, nationalism in the sense of nation-states came much later in the 17th century but that simply doesn't mean the cultural civilizations/tribes/"ethnos" (in Greek) were so fundamentally different that you could argue the belonging did not exist at all except for the members of the ruling class. I think you fail to register that "the Bulgarians" were not just the Bulgars who spoke Slavic but in fact other inhabitants too who had at that point lived for centuries under the Bulgarian state. You can compare that to the Magyars some 2-300 years later who migrated from the Pontic steppe to Pannonia. They too assimilated with the local Slavs, Germans, etc. How are Hungarians today visually similar to Slovaks, Czechs, Poles, Austrians? Because the Hungarian identity is not just the assimilated Magyars but the Slavs too. They just started speaking Hungarian, unlike the Proto Bulgarians who started speaking Slavic. In that sense the earliest form of the speech which we call Bulgarian was Old Bulgarian, spoken in the First Bulgarian Empire. There were notable differences between written and spoken language and I by no means claim all people, most of whom were rural peasants, spoke the "literary" Old Bulgarian as it appeared in the books. Your whole position is that Bulgarian identity and language simply didn't manifest at that point in history and instead they were just East South Slavic variations. If that is the case, can you explain when they eventually did, when did the wider population start considering itself Bulgarian, and not just the ruling class?

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damjan193@reddit

Why are you concentrating on a small part of my whole post, nationhood is a whole different debate that I didn't want to get in to which is why I kept it short. Obviously it's a bit more complicated than "it did not exist at all", but on the other hand you can't seriously belive that the local peasantry in the 9th century considered itself Bulgarian as you do today? Even if some form of ethnicity existed, it was Slavic and not Bulgarian, people rarely identified with the political unit they lived in, especially if the ruling class of said unit was not of their own background. Hell, even Clement of Ohrid, who had the title Archbishop of Bulgaria, refered to himself as Archbishop of the Slavs. To answer your question, the wider population started to consider itself Bulgarian much later than the period we're debating, probably around 17th-18th century.

Your main problem is the fact that you think about the Bulgarian Empire, a political entity, and the Slavic (for you Bulgarian) language, part of a linguistic entity, as if they are the same thing. Just because the language was spoken in the Bulgarian Empire is not enough to call it Bulgarian. You clearly avoid to adress the points that I raised, about the language existing way before the Bulgarian Empire was even a thing, and also the fact that even when the language was institutionalized it was almost never called Bulgarian, almost everyone important to us refered to it as Slavic. The history of how Slavic came to be official of Medieval Bulgaria also backs up my point.

You main point that because the language was spoken in the Bulgarian Empire = the language was Bulgarian is simply a very weak argument.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Of course they weren't Bulgarians nationals in the modern sense of the term. We established that. But I said identifying with the society was a thing and not just for the ruling class. You can't seriously be saying that in the 16th century Bulgarians thought of themselves as "ethnic Slavs" like those who were inhabiting Poland/Ukraine back before the migration period in the 6th century. That's even more outlandish. There was no such Slavic ethnic identity persevering for 1000 years.

The point is that "the Slavs" and "the Bulgarians" were not separate entities, they were the same entity after Knyaz Boris' rule. The Slavic settlement community between the 7th and 9th century Bulgaria was not a sporadic, isolated, semi-autonomous and left to mind its business like it was in the Byzantine empire during that same period. It was very much allied from the beginning, connected and integrated, and finally fused into one with all other ones. In that sense the "Bulgarians" were Slavs, and the Slavs were "Bulgarians". This was the ethnic identity of the 10th century. On the other hand, the national identity of the 18th century which was triggered by the release of "Slavo-Bulgarian history" by Paisiy Hilendarski is a different thing. It was a contemporary reactionary movement with goals of self-preservation in the face of increased Greekification and erosion of ethnic Bulgarian pride during the Ottoman rule. The whole unification of the people had already been done by Knyaz Boris.

Strictly speaking from linguistic point of view the politicizing of languages is not uncommon. Serbo-Croatian is by all accounts the same language. It is also called differently by every one of them. It is still the same - yes. So, what's the issue you have with the label "Old Bulgarian"? We are not saying Old Slavonic didn't exist before Bulgaria but rather than when Bulgaria conquered most of the Balkans, all of Old Slavonic was contained within Bulgaria thus it was the language of Bulgaria. Old Bulgarian (spoken during the First Bulgarian Empire) became Middle Bulgarian (spoken during the Second Bulgarian Empire), which then became Modern Bulgarian (spoken during the Revival period and the Kingdom of Bulgaria, which later became the Republic of Bulgaria). Like no shit, we are going to call the language that our people spoke in our country Bulgarian.

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damjan193@reddit

You raise new points that were not even part of the initial conversation and I simply can't get involved into new topics about nationhood. You also refuse to answer all my points as to why the language was never actually refered to as Old Bulgarian and why all the clerics refered to both themselves and the language as Slavic. We're running in circles and I stand by the points I made, language of the Bulgarian Empire does not automatically equal Bulgarian Language, especially not when we have proof to the contrary. I just want to add that there is a reason why no one outside of Bulgaria agrees that Macedonian language came from Bulgarian and the reasons I already explained above. Have a good day.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Because Bulgarian and Slavic was not a distinction that they were making. The Slavs who had migrated to the Southeast Balkans had turned into "the Bulgarians". The Bulgarian Slavs. They were not just Slavs ruled by Bulgaria as you may are claiming. They were the Bulgarians. And they were speaking Slavic. It's that simple. The first Bulgarian empire became a titular state in the 10th century. If your language, identity, and culture trace back to that 10th century Bulgarian state, then this is the argument for why they are derived from Bulgarian. Not modern Bulgarian. Historical Bulgarian.

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damjan193@reddit

Bro that's serious reaching, they were Slavs and refered to themselves as such, that's all that is important. Bulgaria was just a political unit that they may not even have had much sympathy towards (we do not know). If the written word of st. Clement etc. is not enough for you then idk what to say. Agree to disagree I guess but one of us is wrong and it's not me lol.

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Alcohol102@reddit

Од кај мајкати дундана најверојатно

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Such a cultured and intelligent reply. You must be an academic

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Alcohol102@reddit

Доктор на науки по бугарски хендикеп

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

If that makes you sleep better at night

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Alcohol102@reddit

🤷‍♂️

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markohf12@reddit

Eastern South Slavic dialects, as the picture says.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Can you show me the Eastern South Slavic dialects on a map, please?

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markohf12@reddit

Here you go:

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Those are both the Eastern and Western South Slavic. I'm asking for just the Eastern

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markohf12@reddit

Well just ignore the western ones, maybe this graph will help?

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Thanks, it is of no use to me since it graphs language taxonomy not the historical development. Anyway, seeing that you are struggling to find a map, here you go:

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markohf12@reddit

Not really, this is the same graph I also had, just showing Macedonian and Bulgarian languages.

Which does not prove Macedonian originates from Bulgarian.

Oh wait, I forgot, you claim all Eastern South Slavic Dialects as Bulgarian, this is the part where I said no sane person outside of Bulgaria has this view.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

The graphs indeed doesn't prove it because it is a taxonomic graph, not historical development of the languages, it shows what groups the modern languages are classified as. There was never a language of Eastern South Slavic historically. In the graph it is a category. There was however Old Slavonic spoken in the First Bulgarian Empire which all dialects of Bulgarian and Macedonian are derived from.

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markohf12@reddit

So: Old Slavonic > Bulgarian Old Slavonic > Macedonian

Not Old Slavonic > Bulgarian > Macedonian

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Okay, we are going somewhere. Now replace Slavonic with Bulgarian

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markohf12@reddit

And that’s where no sane person who studies languages outside of Bulgaria agrees with you.

You can’t claim all South Slavic Dialects as Bulgarian lol.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

I don't claim all South Slavic dialects as Bulgarian. Where did you see me say that? All South Slavic dialects include Shtokavian, Kajkavian, Chakavian, Slovene who are definitely not derived from Old Slavonic (Old Bulgarian), spoken in the First Bulgarian Empire. But Macedonian is derived from Old Bulgarian spoken in the First Bulgarian Empire. As you said yourself Macedonian comes from Old Slavonic.

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markohf12@reddit

Old Slavonic is not Old Bulgarian.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Yeah, pardon me, it's Old Macedonian

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damjan193@reddit

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Gave me the same image as the other guy. I've already replied to them. I suggest you check how that discussion turns out so I don't have to repeat everything in another comment. This image is of all South Slavic languages. I'm asking for just the Eastern South Slavic languages

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Alcohol102@reddit

Оди лечи се бе

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Alcohol102@reddit

Лек брате за тебе е една ортома дебела и цврста греда, тешка мизерија сте од народ, за жалење сте, загреота.

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gobgobgobgob@reddit

Промити мозъци сте вие. Жалко ми е.

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7elevenses@reddit

Macedonian and Bulgarian are two closely related, but separately standardized languages within the same dialectal continuum. The same as Czech and Slovak, or Scandinavian languages. Nobody goes around claiming that Slovak is Czech or that Norwegian is Danish, it would be a silly thing to do.

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damjan193@reddit

And Czech and Slovak are even far more similar to eachother than Macedonian and Bulgarian. Not to mention Croatian and Serbian.

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7elevenses@reddit

Croatian and Serbian are actually the counter-example here, because they are the same language. Which again doesn't mean that Croatian comes from Serbian or vice-versa, it just means that they underwent a common standardization process, based on the same dialect, with the same orthography, morphology, etc. They're like national varieties of German or Spanish or English.

None of this is true for Czech/Slovak, Danish/Norwegian or Bulgarian/Macedonian.

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David_Aaron_Finck@reddit

My wife was Montenegrin, Islamic religions, from Podgorica. She was indeed the best that ever happened to me, I loved her more than my own life, if there was a possibility to die instead of her, I would not doubt for a second, because she was better person than me and she made this world be a better place. And I don't bullshit here, I am serious when I say that I would give my life for her, so she could live further. Unfortunately, there are always the good, that dies young, and she left at the age of 47. It's 5 years since she's no longer and I still miss her so much. That's out of the original topic, but always when is something about Montenegro and Montenegrins, I get emotionally involved, doesn't matter what the discussion was. If there is something like afterlife, my only concern is if Dijana is there, then she promised to be with me on the other side, if something like that exists.

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koshka91@reddit

Not for that. Ancient Greek is widely different from modern Greek. But it’s still called “Greek”

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MysticEnby420@reddit

Ancient Greek is more different from modern Greek than Brazilian Portuguese is from Portugal Portuguese

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

There is no official/objective difference between a language and a dialect. You sure can include Montenegrin and Serbian in one language, but you can do the same for Serbian and Croatian, in fact you can do it for all Slavic languages, and there is nothing stopping you from saying English, Sanskrit, and Montenegrin are one Indo-European language. We can even do the opposite and say each small village in Montenegro uses a different unique language.

So to answer your point, it’s considered a language because Montenegro is an independent state. Under Yugoslavia, it was a dialect of BCMS (Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian), aka Serbo-Croatian. Both are equally correct.

Also, Montenegrin is the only South Slavic language that has s-ś-š and z-ź-ž distinction

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

They added that letters recently. Barely anyone uses them on a daily basis.

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Icy_Chain_1504@reddit

Litterally everyone uses Ś

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

I mean in written form.

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Icy_Chain_1504@reddit

If we follow Vuk Karadžić's rule of "Write as you speak and speak as you write" it would very much be so. And it wouldn't gramatically be incorrect.

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7elevenses@reddit

How is wrting ś as sj any different than writing lj and nj and dž?

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7elevenses@reddit

Štokavian was intentionally standardized as a single language in the 19th century, and made official by governments of Austria-Hungary, and kingdoms of Serbia and Montenegro. This has nothing to do with dialects, all 4 modern national varieties are based on exactly the same neoštokavian dialect. Montenegro is the only country of the 4 where neoštokavian was already spoken by practically all of the population, even before it became official. Other countries have dialects that differ way more from the common standard than anything in Montenero does.

So no, this isn't a dialect vs. language question. This is literally the same language, intentionally constructed by humans to be the same language, and now after 150+ years, is also the language of the majority of the population, including everybody in Montenegro who isn't Albanian.

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

A language is not a language because it is standardized. English for example isn’t standartized, yet nobody denies it’s a language. The hundreds of minority Chinese languages are not standardized, yet a Mandarin speaker could never understand Cantonese or Hokkien. And also, for the most part of history, languages were never standardized.

The thing is different “official classifications” are just practical models and vary by organisation (this is best seen in the classification(s) of Arabic where some officially classify it as a single “megalanguage” while others officially view Arabic as a continuum of 30 languages). There is no objective border between a language and a dialect

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7elevenses@reddit

Of course English is standardized. It just had a different, more diffuse and slower process of standardization.

But even without standardization, everybody in Montenegro, almost everybody in Bosnia, and most people in Serbia and Croatia already spoke neoštokavian before standardization. And since standardization, their spoken languages have converged and continue to converge.

There is no objective border between a language and a dialect

The fact that some people are intersex doesn't mean that there's no objective border between males and females. Fuzzy borders don't mean that categories are subjective.

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

No, English is not standartized. The closest thing to standardization is RP, which is just a standardized pronunciation. It doesn’t have any equivalent of Académie Française for French or Real Academia Española for Spanish.

>> The fact that some people are intersex doesn't mean that there's no objective border between males and females. Fuzzy borders don't mean that categories are subjective.

Okay, then what’s the border?

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7elevenses@reddit

RP is a class-marked pronunciation of standard English. That's a completely separate thing from a standard language. English was standardized through use in books, print, dictionaries, and language handbooks, and finally school curricula. You don't need an Academie Francais to have a standardized language.

Okay, then what’s the border?

Depends on the situation. Obviously German and Czech are not the same language, it's not a matter of opinion.

For naturally spoken dialects, the border is mutual intelligibility of grammar structures. For standardized languages, it's the fact that they have separate standards, with separate standardization history, orthography, morphology, function words, core vocabulary. None of this is true for varieties of standard Štokavian, because it was deliberately standardized as a single language.

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

>> English was standardized through use in books, print, dictionaries, and language handbooks, and finally school curricula. You don't need an Academie Francais to have a standardized language.

That’s not a standardization, that’s just “everyone agreed on the basics”. British, American, AAVE, etc. all have different pronunciation, vocabulary, grammar, etc. At what point do they stop being one language? Are Scots and Jamaican Patois dialects or languages? Ask two people and you’ll get three opinions

>> For naturally spoken dialects, the border is mutual intelligibility of grammar structures.

How would you even measure that?

Take for example Arabic. Moroccans understand Algerians who understand Libyans who understand Egyptians who understand Jordanians who understand Levantines. So they all should be lumped together in a single language? The problem is Moroccans and Levantines don’t understand each other, so they both should and should not be one language at the same time. The same is true for all the Chinese languages, and many tribal language continuums.

>> For standardized languages, it's the fact that they have separate standards, with separate standardization history, orthography, morphology, function words, core vocabulary.

Supposing English was officially standardized, that would make American a different language from British which is absurd.

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7elevenses@reddit

that’s just “everyone agreed on the basics

That's literally what standardization means in lingustics.

British, American, AAVE, etc. all have different pronunciation, vocabulary, grammar, etc.

Standard British English and standard American English have identical grammar, identical morphology and identical core vocabulary. AAVE is not a standard variety of English, it's somewhere between a sociolect (not a dialect, because it's not regionally based) and its own language, primarily because of its different use of tense and aspect.

Take for example Arabic. Moroccans understand Algerians who understand Libyans who understand Egyptians who understand Jordanians who understand Levantines. So they all should be lumped together in a single language?

That's not how it actually works, and it doesn't in any dialect continuum. Dialect continuums are not smooth. There's plenty of unevenness and clustering. I'm not sure that even Algerians generally understand Moroccans. And other Arabic countries also commonly have trouble understanding even their own neighbors. Which is why they tend to communicate in a register based on MSA, which they all learn in school, and Egyptian Arabic, to which they are all exposed in the media. And of course the borders are fuzzy, but dialect clusters that really form distinct languages are still identifiable.

Supposing English was officially standardized, that would make American a different language from British which is absurd.

English is officially standardized. Schools teach government-sanctioned curricula with government-sanctioned textbooks. But American English shared the standardization process with British English. Brits weren't illiterate when they migrated to America, they already wrote in standard English of their time, which continued to evolve in constant contact across the Atlantic until today.

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

>> That's literally what standardization means in lingustics.

Then every language/dialect is practically “standardized”.

>> Standard British English and standard American English have identical grammar,

I just ate vs I’ve just eaten; The team is winning vs The team are winning; on the weekend vs at the weekend; in the hospital vs in hospital; do you have a pen vs have you got a pen; etc.

>> identical morphology

gotten vs got, learned vs learnt, dreamed vs dreamt, etc; organize vs organise; traveling vs travelling;

>> AAVE is not a standard variety of English, it's somewhere between a sociolect (not a dialect, because it's not regionally based) and its own language, primarily because of its different use of tense and aspect.

What makes it less of a “standardized” English in comparison to American? Prior to Trump English was not even an official language of the US

>> That's not how it actually works, and it doesn't in any dialect continuum. Dialect continuums are not smooth. There's plenty of unevenness and clustering. I'm not sure that even Algerians generally understand Moroccans. And other Arabic countries also commonly have trouble understanding even their own neighbors. Which is why they tend to communicate across borders in a register based on MSA, which they all learn in school, and Egyptian Arabic, to which they are all exposed in the media. And of course the borders are fuzzy, but dialect clusters that really form distinct languages are still identifiable.

You yourself said the borders are not smooth, how can distinct languages be identifiable? Different databases treat Arabic or Chinese differently for example

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7elevenses@reddit

Then every language/dialect is practically “standardized”.

To different extents. Dialects and pre-standardization languages often don't have standard orthographies, standard morphologies, etc. Which is why when people write in their own unstandarized dialect, the same words and sentences are written differently.

I just ate vs I’ve just eaten; The team is winning vs The team are winning; on the weekend vs at the weekend; in the hospital vs in hospital; do you have a pen vs have you got a pen; etc.

Those differences are marginal, don't confuse anybody, and their use in different countries differs by frequency. Both Brits and Americans say all those things. This is normal variation within a single standard language, especially in a pluricentric one with multiple national varieties.

What makes it less of a “standardized” English in comparison to American?

The lack of standard orthography, morphology and a literary corpus written in the standardized variety.

Prior to Trump English was not even an official language of the US

And yet, it was taught in all public schools.

You yourself said the borders are not smooth, how can distinct languages be identifiable?

Again, the fact that intersex people exist doesn't make identification of male and female sexes impossible. The fact that purple exists doesn't make identification of red and blue impossible. The fact that large streams and small rivers exist doesn't mean that we can't tell whether the Danube is a river. Etc. etc.

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

>> Again, the fact that intersex people exist doesn't make identification of male and female sexes impossible. The fact that purple exists doesn't make identification of red and blue impossible. The fact that large streams and small rivers exist doesn't mean that we can't tell whether the Danube is a river. Etc. etc.

You didn’t answer the question. Different linguistic databases classify different number of Arabic languages ranging from 1 to 30+. Obviously, there is no clear objective border.

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7elevenses@reddit

Because they're classifying different things, some of them constructed by humans. There is one MSA, there are dozens of spoken Arabic languages. There is one standard Chinese language, there are dozens of spoken languages in China.

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

Then how many are the “dozens of Arabic languages”? How do you distinguish whether a speech in a village is a dialect of the speech in the neighbouring village or a different language altogether?

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7elevenses@reddit

You can't always distinguish, which doesn't mean that the distinction doesn't exist. I'll repeat myself - fuzzy borders are not proof that categories don't exist. The fact that children grow up one day at a time doesn't make childhood and adulthood arbitrary concepts.

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Sad_Suspect_9649@reddit

So to answer your question, it’s considered a language because Montenegro is an independent state.

It's not a state language, but that of an ethnic group actually. Even though the state enforces its usage. Montenegrin language isn't spoken by most of Montenegro. Just by those who isždentify as Montenegrin, and funny enough, even a significant portion of them speak Serbian.

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Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit

Language is a dialect with an army.

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requiem_mn@reddit

I think that it's language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Which actually shows how old that expression is, because you don't have air force.

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

Polish, Belarusian and Ukrainian have that distinction too

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Alex_Gr3tt@reddit

None of which are South Slavic.

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

Croats say sjedi instead of sedi, they just don’t write it śedi

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Panceltic@reddit

But they also pronounce it [sj], unlike the purported Montenegrin standard.

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

How does Montenegro pronounce it?

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Panceltic@reddit

[ɕ], like Polish

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

Hmm, I didn’t see it pronounced this way

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Panceltic@reddit

I’ve never heard it either but then again I don’t listen to Montenegrins 😂 anyway apparently it exists in some speech or another, and it is distinctive enough to have been adopted into the standard.

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Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit

Try pronouncing š but put your tongue on the upper part of the mouth (the way you’d pronounce Ć or Ð)

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

Yes yes I know

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Alex_Gr3tt@reddit

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? The poster above you clearly indicated he was talking about South Slavic languages. Then you went to debate his claim by introducing examples of languages that are NOT South Slavic. Which then I pointed out.

As for the rest of your gibberish, I have no interest in it.

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Similar-Speech2371@reddit

Isn't Montenegrin jekavian? Saying it's 100% Serbian is incorrect, it's not ekavian. It could be then asked why they should call the language Serbian and not Croatian LoL It's just another standard of a pluricentric language, it's ok for it to exist

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zanimljivo123@reddit

Identity crisis

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No_Corner_1375@reddit

I bet Bulgarians felt the same way about Serbs starting their own church back in the day of Rastko Nemanjić

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Melodic_Interview210@reddit

Serbs were under Constaninople not Bulgarian church and there are notable difference between Yugoslav and Bulgar languages

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No_Corner_1375@reddit

Not true, Bulgaria had its Patriarchate and you were under it

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BardhyliX@reddit

It's not that complicated.

If Montenegro called their language Serbian, it gives justification to the people in Montenegro who want the country to be part of Serbia and not its own distinct identity.

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127x108@reddit

Germany, austria and north switzerland: german

Entire Latin america: Spanish

Brazil, portugal, angola, mozambique: portugese

France, third of africa, quebec: french

But hey; serbian, croatian, bosnian and montenegrin are separate languages.

Absolutely hilarious

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ohwellhell@reddit

So you fine with calling it all Croatian? Or?

Because Vuk claimed shtokavian dialect is Serbian, therefore all who speak said dialect are Serbian.

So you know, I'm good with all of them being a separate language.

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127x108@reddit

I'm fine with serbo-croatian or croato-serb, hell I'm even fine with ISO639-1/3 or 53-AAA-g or even call it a potato

Just stop pretending they are separate languages.

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Maximus_Dominus@reddit

Well, if we simply call it Croatian that means we won’t pretend they are different languages anymore.

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ohwellhell@reddit

So in Croatian you have three distinct and recognized dialects: - chakavian, which has no cultural connection to Serbian - kajkavian, which has no cultural connection to Serbian - shtokavian, which is also used by Serbian people

And you want to bunch them all with Serbian? Even though they aren't used anywhere at all in Serbia?

Also, why just Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian? Why not Bosnian-Croatian-Herzegovinian-Montenegrin-Serbian? Because it is also used there.

And don't even get me started on the history of standardization of these languages. Croatian elites from Dubrovnik have started doing it for Croatian two centuries before Vuk came along (even though some claim these authors as Serbian).

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PlasticPatient@reddit

So what language is it?

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127x108@reddit

Serbo-croatian or croato-serbian, depending on who you ask. Both are acceptable

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Maximus_Dominus@reddit

How convenient for you.

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PlasticPatient@reddit

Bosnians would never find that acceptable.

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mozdamalosutra@reddit

ofc a serb commenting this

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127x108@reddit

Does it make it less true?

[-]

mozdamalosutra@reddit

yes

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127x108@reddit

Можда мало сутра

[-]

Burenosets@reddit

Same with Bulgarian and Macedonian.

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billups77@reddit

Have you ever said to a brazilian that they speak portugese ? Or an angolan ? Or anyone in the south america ? They get insulted as do us, balkaners, just the mentality I guess

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127x108@reddit

Yes, I've actually lived in brazil, states Para & Rio de janeiro for 5 months. Everyone is speaking portugese.

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Young_Owl99@reddit

Brazilians get offended when they are told they speak Portugese ?

Two country get along well and respect each other.

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David_Aaron_Finck@reddit

Man, we are Balkanians, when in the history we done things same way like the rest of the world. I am Bosnian, famous in the region because of my "hard head", and Bosnian is practically like a donkey. It's kinda normal to live complicated in our banana states, I lived in Germany and Austria, am still working remote for a German company and when I am in my German settings, I do my shit simple. After the work, the Balkanic reality takes over, then, although is my male bloodline originated from Ottoman empire and my female bloodline from Spain, donkey stays always the donkey, there helps not my cosmopolitan personality or my open minded world view.

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Young_Owl99@reddit

At least people who learn one of these languages can brag about knowing 4 different languages.

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127x108@reddit

That's like bragging to know how to hold chopsticks if you're born in china....

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Young_Owl99@reddit

I didn’t meant the native speakers, I said learners.

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Big-Vegetable4550@reddit

Yep - learn one, get three more for (almost) free.

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Fine-Ear-8103@reddit

Montenegro been pissing y’all off lately huh

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

I'm still waiting for Kosovian language

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Fine-Ear-8103@reddit

That might lead to Albanian civil war😪

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

Well the Montenegrin identity has existed since at least 1945 as Montenegrin, but likely much before that due to unique history and geopolitics.

When Montenegro split from Yugoslavia and killed it, it standardized its own language - Montenegrin. The same way Bosnians did in Bosnia (this one is a bit more controversial though).

Montenegrin does actually have some unique features that differentiate from the other standards. Namely the addition of ś and ź (borrowed from Polish) to represent common phonemes heard in Montenegro.

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7elevenses@reddit

ś and ź are not phonemes in montenegrin, they are allophones of sj and zj. And even if they were phonemes, they can continue to be represented by digraphs sj and zj, just like other phonemes are represented by digraphs lj and nj.

Adding new letters to the alphabet is beyond idiotic. It just makes your own people semi-literate, makes it harder to communicate with neighbors that speak the same language, and makes your orthography incompatible with 100% of existing text in your language.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

Not really.

Sjekira =/= śekira

Zjenica =/= źenica

They pronounce them in a way very few people outside Montenegro do, so it was another way to legitimize the Montenegrin standard of serbo-Croatian. They did more than the Bosnians in that regard.

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No_Corner_1375@reddit

But Shakira = s'ekira

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

That’s a stupid example. The ć in ‘noć’ is pronounced differently in Serbia and Croatia, but that doesn’t make it a different letter.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

According to the standard, it’s not differently pronounced and there are areas in both countries where it’s not dialectally either

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Another example konj (коњ) and konjugacija (конјугација). Different pronunciation - nobody gives a fuck.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

Clearly Montenegro does. Hence ś i ź. You’re over here having a childish tantrum over something that literally does not give a fuck about YOU.

And that’s pathetic.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

It's literally the topic and I carried out my opinion. No need to go bananas once you run out of arguments.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

I’m not out of arguments, they’re right up there 👆🏻

You can reread them but that’s my stance. You were the one who answered like a sour puss and used the work “fuck” and “stupid”. You were a bitch and tried to force your opinion to be the reality, which it can’t be and is not. So using your own language:

Fuck your stupid reply

See that? That’s how it’s like to talk to you. Probably in real life too

👋🏻👋🏻

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Take a chill pill, dear Croat.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

You’re the one who started swearing over nothing. Typical Serb

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7elevenses@reddit

Are you saying that these are minimal pairs? Does śekira mean something different than sjekira in Montenegro?

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

That’s for the speakers of Montenegro to decide. The first time I heard someone say śutra, I didn’t know what they meant.

Is sretьja the same thing as sreća? I don’t know, maybe to some it is and to some it isn’t, but I’m glad we have ć to represent that reflex.

The graphemes are much more useful in informal speech too. Writing sjutra people might not know what you’re talking about, but śutra is acceptable and clear

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chbb@reddit

There are no SH speakers who would not what sjutra means. It is perfectly understandable for anyone. And it is just reflection of etymology: sjutra/sutra is derived from “sa jutra” (from the morning)

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

Yes. I’ve clarified what I meant in the reply

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7elevenses@reddit

What? No, that's not how it works. To demonstrate that something is a separate phoneme, you need to find minimal pairs where replacing this sound with another sound changes the meaning of the word. That's what phoneme means. And the fact that you didn't understand what śutra means is about as impressive of a difference as a Serb from Serbia not understanding when a Serb from Bosnia says "ljeto", or a person from Sarajevo not understanding what "neđelja" means.

Is sretьja the same thing as sreća? I don’t know, maybe to some it is and to some it isn’t, but I’m glad we have ć to represent that reflex.

There are few direct minimal pairs between tj and ć, as there are between dj and đ. The easiest to find are old local vs. later adopted foreign versions of names. E.g. nobody would say that Kaća and Katja or Nađa and Nadja are the same names.

OTOH, ć and đ commonly appear in positions that are etymologically distinct from tj and dj, and where no dialect pronounces them or ever pronounced them tj or dj, because they were imported from foreign languages as already palatalized phonemes. I'm not aware of this being true for ś and ź for any word.

And regardless, if ć and đ didn't exist, and tj and dj digraphs were used for spelling those phonemes for the last 150 years, it would be beyond idiotic to change that spelling now.

Writing sjutra people might not know what you’re talking about, but śutra is acceptable and clear

This part is complete nonsense. Sjutra has been the standard Montenegrin spelling of the word for 150 years. Who are the people who wouldn't know what you're talking about?

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

In terms of sutra and sjutra I misspoke. I meant to say śutra is more intuitive for speakers and reflects their pronunciation. I phrased that poorly

Moreover, I don’t think we’re understanding each other. You’re right for the most part. I agree with you for the most part. The letters will not result in minimal pairs. But the argument isn’t wholly about whether or not a grapheme has to “prove its independance” to be introduced into orthography. Ś and ź are regular, predictable and culturally associated with Montenegrin. Sj and zj are not pronounced as clusters there, but rather ś and ź respectively. The distinctions might be salient enough that Montenegrin opted to create new graphemes to represent them. And historically, new graphemes arose due to palatal reflexes in Slavic. So when you look at it, it’s not outrageous how they came to ś and ź.

Perhaps because you speak Slovenian, but an orthography isn’t designed to only reflect minimum phonetic representation. They can also reflect a languages history and perceived linguistic structure. At the end of the day, I think the move was more a political one than linguistic, but even so, ś and ź represent pronunciations that Montenegrins feel is uniquely Montenegrin. And for the most part - they’re right.

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chbb@reddit

I have heard Montenegrin TV announcer in 1980s pronounce “sjutra”. “ śutra” probably existed in some subdialect, but “sjutra” was a norm in Montenegro (and only there, all other speakers of SH language say “sutra”)

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7elevenses@reddit

Yeah, they definitely have that pronunciation. In some dialects, not all. But the intervention in the orthography is completely political, unnecessary, and objectively harmful, i.e. it does more harm than good.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

I like it and I want them to keep it

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chbb@reddit

Sjutra existed forever, in print and in speech. In former Yugoslavia, 60 years ago, speakers from Montenegro used “sjutra” instead of “sutra”, and everybody knew what they meant.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

Yes. I misspoke and clarified what I wanted to say in my reply

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requiem_mn@reddit

Explain to me how ś and ź are not phonemes? Because they definitely are. It's iotation of s and z, similar to how you get đ from d and ć from t. I think it is idiotic not to be able to spell a word you are able to pronounce. If I write sjutra, I will pronounce it as sj, two phonemes, and if I write it as ś, it means I will pronounce it as single different phoneme ś. It is also not unique amongst Slavic languages, and exists in Polish and one of the Sorbian languages (can't remember which upper or lower). I know a person whose nickname is Śale. Imagine someone asks you to write it, and your answer is I can't. That's beyond stupid. Phoneme fucking survived 150+ years of not being able to write it. I think it deserves it's letter

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7elevenses@reddit

Do you have a minimal pair between ś and sj? That's the criterion for phonemes.

And again, do you pronounce in and as a separate sound? How has not being able to write that down as a separate letter, even in the new fancy Montenegrin alphabet made it impossible for you to spell words you are able to pronounce?

I know a person whose nickname is Śale. Imagine someone asks you to write it, and your answer is I can't.

Of course you can, it's Sjale. Just like if someone's nickname is Ljutko, you know how to write it without having a separate letter for lj.

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requiem_mn@reddit

Sjale and Śale are pronounced differently. So, no, you cannot write it as sjale. And lj and nj are unfortunate compromises. And it actually does make minor inconvenience. In word injekcija you should pronounce nj as two separate phonemes. It's инјекција in Cyrillic. Also, djevojka vs đevojka. Both are correct but THEY ARE FUCKING PRONOUNCED DIFFERENT. Is that really that difficult to understand? Also, what the fuck is minimal pair.

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7elevenses@reddit

A minimal pair is a pair of words that differ in only one phoneme and mean different things. Spavaćica vs. spavačica means that ć and č are different phonemes. There are no minimal pairs for lj vs l-j, and only a few latinate minimal pairs for nj vs. n-j. Which only really matter in Cyrillic spelling, because unless you're specifically enunciating the word, nobody says "j" in injekcija separately in normal speech.

Also, you have phonemic vowel length and phonemic pitch accent. Gore gore gore gore are 4 different words, all pronounced differently in most Štokavian dialects. We don't write them, we never did. Nothing is lost, nobody is left puzzling how to write them. Meanwhile, for people who don't have pitch accent and have different patterns for length, requiring the marking of length and pitch in writing would make the orthography a huge pain for them, much worse than for people without the č-ć distinction in speech, which can at least be learned with a few rules and a list of roots. Underspecification is not always an actual problem, in this case, it's a solution to a potential problem.

And I know that you can pronounce sj and ś differently, just like I can pronounce nj and n-j differently. But do you actually do that in speech? If you have ś in your speech, do you use sj in any words?

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requiem_mn@reddit

Yes, you have sj where you would never use ś. Sjahati. Generally, as ś is because of jotovanje, it's usually used when you have sje. Plus any word from śutra, like śutradan, śutrašnji and similar.

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7elevenses@reddit

That distribution seems somewhat weird. Sjutra and sjahati are both s- prefix + regular root starting with j, with a non-iotating vowels after it. Are you sure that nobody pronounces it śahati?

In any case, this might be an argument for it being a phoneme. That doesn't answer the other arguments, particularly (1) What about people from dialects that don't do sj->ś? How are they supposed to guess? (2) what about all the existing texts in Montenegrin over last 150 years? (3) Is the difference in spelling worth introducing incompatibility with the other 3 national varieties of Štokavian?

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requiem_mn@reddit

Weird or not, it is as I said. And yes, nobody will ever say śahati. Like I said, it's jotovanje plus śutra. For ź, which is used way less frequently, zjapiti is never źapiti. You can say źenica for iris.

You mean within Montenegro? Everyone knows them, so it's not an argument at all.
They are still valid. Both sjutra and śutra are correct. Just like djevojka and đevojka are correct.
Why should we care? I am 100% sure that someone from Belgrade will have less issue understanding me using ś then whatever it is when people from Vranje are talking with realistically missing 3 out of 7 cases. It's just one (of) difference (s). I mean, should we remove ijekavica just so that Beograđani can understand as better? Should Croats not use Rujan and listopad and however they call months so that I know what the fucking month is? I don't think so. Personally, I would also change what is normal infinitive in Montenegro. People here usually say ić not ići i.e. short infinitive here is actually in regular speech used more than long infinitive.

The language is Serbo-Croatian, but it was decided that Yugoslavia sucks, so with everyone going there own way, so did the language eventually. And finally, people like to say, everyone kn Austria speaks German. Well, yes, but Germans don't claim that Austrians are Germans. You can see here about our identity crisis comments. Too many people in Serbia do not recognize Montenegrins at all.

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7elevenses@reddit

Serbo-Croatian was adopted by the kingdom of Montenegro as the official language long before Yugoslavia existed, so Yugoslavia is really irrelevant here.

And as for this:

Why should we care?

But you do care, as you say yourself:

And finally, people like to say, everyone kn Austria speaks German. Well, yes, but Germans don't claim that Austrians are Germans. You can see here about our identity crisis comments. Too many people in Serbia do not recognize Montenegrin

You are playing at language engineering, changing the orthography of your own standard language, making more problems for yourselves than for anybody else, because of what Serbs think? And you say you don't care?

The rational position here is to actually not care what they think, and not do things because of them.

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requiem_mn@reddit

Change in orthography is not because of Serbs, it's to actually follow that basic rule of Serbo-Croatian write as you speak. The reason we don't call it Serbian is because of Serbs. They have tendency to say that anyone who writes Serbian as native language is Serb. And don't you know, Croats are Catholic Serbs and Bosniaks are Muslim Serbs. Yeah, fuck off. Like people are idiots and don't know what they are, so ignore the nationality in census, use language instead.

Also, constitution of Montenegro (1905) has nothing to say about language, so it's more de facto then de iure regarding Serbo-Croatian in the Kingdom.

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7elevenses@reddit

Nah, it was definitely for identity and political reasons. There was no popular movement or organically developed convention to use ś and ź. In practice, it at best resolved a marginal ambiguity, much smaller than all the other ambiguities that continue existing. It was done explicitly and intentionally to be distinct from the others, not to solve any problem that Montenegrins actually had.

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deviendrais@reddit

Love seeing someone use simple linguistics (like minimal pairs) to melt Balkan nationalists’ brains

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

And they didn’t even borrow these two correctly

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

What do you mean? They represent the same (or almost the exact same) sounds in both languages.

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

Polish Ś and Ź are _not_ Sj and Zj. Otherwise ‘telewizja’ would be written telewiźa (which it isn’t)

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

Not sj and zj, the ś and ź in Montenegrin are phonetically identical to Polish ś and ź

What so you mean borrowed? Like you’re saying Montenegrin should’ve come up with a new letter to represent how they pronounce sj and zj?

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Austerlitz2310@reddit

Anything to distance oneself from what is historically the same people.

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No_Corner_1375@reddit

We all work together, just outside of the context of Serbia

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David_Aaron_Finck@reddit

Why not? If we use this logic, there will be no right to name the language Bosnian. Or Croatian. Actually, Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian language using exactly the same amount of letters, while Montenegrin have a few additional letters we don't have in our grammar.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

There's a correct name but no one is using it - Serbo-Croatian

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David_Aaron_Finck@reddit

I am also very frustrated because of the collapse of the Federation and disrespecting of values that it represented.

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Novel-Corner-7038@reddit

While traveling to Montenegro, our tour guide told us about the mountain tribes that once lived in the area. After visiting the country, I think the mountain tribes are still there. I can see why they would call their language a different name, since they are not like the Serbians.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Serbs also had tribes in Montenegro

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Ok_Objective_1606@reddit

Because Montenegro as a country has a right to standardize the language however they want. Montenegrin, just like Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian is just another standardization of BCMS or, as it used to be called "Serbo-Croatian". There is really no need for anyone outside of Montenegro to have an opinion on this.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

used to be called "Serbo-Croatian"

It is still used and it's active. It has own ISO code as a macro-language

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Sad_Suspect_9649@reddit

Montenegrins are an ethnic/political group and as every other political/ethnic group they expressed the desire to have their language named after them. Not to confuse with other groups in Montenegrin who use their own ethnoc languages: Serbian, Bosnian, Albanian etc.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

So you can go to the municipality and ask for your paperwork to be in Serbian instead of Montenegrin?

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EnvironmentalPack759@reddit

Yes, you can, you can choose even what writing will it be in.

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Sad_Suspect_9649@reddit

I think you can.

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BeatnologicalMNE@reddit

As someone who was born while serbocroatian was a thing, then studied both Croatian & Serbian I can tell you couple of things.

Because they wanted language (name) to be different than serbian
Because it actually resembles croatian quite a bit more (noone will admit that though, but that's another story), minus some of the madness Croatia did in early 90s with croatian language...
Because serbian language is mainly written/spoken in EKAVICA (despite that oldest written records of serbian are in IJEKAVICA) and pretty much almost noone in Montenegro speaks/writes with EKAVICA
Because Montenegro for some strange reason wanted to include couple of additional letters in their language which, to be completely frank, makes no sense at all despite those letters are in use in parts of Montenegro

Pick any, combine, do whatever you want but it boils down to one thing. Because they could, that's about it. 😃

---
To make things even complicated... Because Montenegro is officially "Civil state" (not sure how to translate this exactly) by constitution, kids in elementary school now study, watch this, "Mother tongue" (and not Montenegrin/Serbian/Croatian etc). Stupidity to the extreme but it is what it is.

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Fickle-Message-6143@reddit

Because serbian language is mainly written/spoken in EKAVICA (despite that oldest written records of serbian are in IJEKAVICA) and pretty much almost noone in Montenegro speaks/writes with EKAVICA

That is weird argument because even tho most of Serbs speak and write ekavica, ijekavica is still used by at least 1 million of Serbs and in Serbian language grammar it is on same standing as ekavica.

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Melodic_Interview210@reddit

Plus ekavica and ijekavica is rather easy to convert from one to another if you're used to old school accent notations

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BeatnologicalMNE@reddit

Good luck converting ekavica to ijekavica as someone who spoke ekavica his whole life. Yes, some things are easy (mleko > mlijeko, belo > bijelo) but big chunk isn't (if you want to be Grammarly correct at least).

Regardless though, it's a shitty argument anyway and it boils down to Montenegro doing it just "cuz they could", that's about it.

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Melodic_Interview210@reddit

To convert on the fly by speaking I agree, but on written form it's just the long accent/short accent rule that is also present in ekavica, and in old manuals those were noted everywhere. I think they are also noted in academic dictionaries, but I don't own one here.

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BeatnologicalMNE@reddit

It's a weak argument yes, can't deny that.

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puhupuh@reddit

School subject in elementary and high schools is called "Montengrin, Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian language and literature" since 2011. "Mother tongue" did exist though as a name for that subject in schools for few years before that.

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BeatnologicalMNE@reddit

I am aware (wasn't aware of exact date though) but it's even more complicated as:
1.) Teachers still call it (in big chunk of Montenegro) "maternji" in order to not offend anyone
2.) Despite that name you mentioned is on paper correct kids have option to pick even some other languages (e.g. Albanian language and literature)

It's stupid however you turn it. They should have made it rather simple if they already picked to name the language "Montenegrin", just teach kids Montenegrin and don't try to be politically correct idiot.

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puhupuh@reddit

It is a bit more complex than just a matter of PC.

Firstly it represents the statement that it is in fact the same polycentric language with four names respectively, that many Montenegrin citizens call differently.

Second, and more important is the fact that it is not just a "language course" , the last bit of the name is the most important IMHO - the literature. In the curricula of the subject there are many works and authors from Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia.

Many teachers and students call it Montenegrin, or Serbian, some do still use "Maternji" mother tongue, yes, not to offend anyone.

It is not a great solution, but in this cluster fuck of our common language and its names, I find it quite good.

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Tiny-Extreme-9980@reddit

I feel like we should have just decided on unified name, because our languages are comparable to how dumb it would be to say American vs English. You learn one, you know them 'all'

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TheEagle74m@reddit

What would you call it then?

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krisvelde@reddit

Macedonian is slightly different from bulgarian and serbian, but "montenegrin," is fucking same language as serbian. Imagine dikagjini language or malesian language...

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JimbosBalls@reddit

Lol yea

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lelebato@reddit

The majority language in Montenegro is Serbian. And then there is Montenegrin which is the same as Serbian language from Montenegro with 2 additional letters that no one uses. And that’s it.

I haven’t heard of a country where they have 1 official language, and that language isn’t even the majority language of their people

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JimbosBalls@reddit

I think Macedonian is a bit more different mate

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phantoms1n@reddit

Montenegro are lazy coastal Serbs, their entire history was ruled by Serbian royal families.

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carloskrosscaption@reddit

Did playing/watching the start of 007: First Light give you this thought?

Minor spoiler for those who don't know...

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NidzoMadjija@reddit

Artificial nation-building in an attempt to landlock any kind of hypothetical unified Serb state, it's plain old geopolitics. Austria Hungary successfully jumpstarted this process in the 19th century with then still conceptual Albanian and Bosnian nationhoods, while the Montenegrin national consciousness was formed more slowly, mostly thanks to the layer efforts of Mussolinis Italy and SFR Yugoslavia. The United States has inherited this process, and reaps the benefits while reinforcing what's already been accomplished (maintaining a local loyalty as opposed to the pre-existing ethnic one, directing enmity with problematic neighbor/s, creating and maintainig victimhood narratives, etc etc).

Controversial or not, this is the unfortunate reality and spelling it out like this will be offensive to some, and uncomfortable to many.

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alpidzonka@reddit

If we're pretending Serbian is a separate language from Croatian and Bosnian and vice versa, then why not, might as well.

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amerikani@reddit

If the Serbs weren’t who they were this situation wouldn’t exist in the Balkans

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Ok-Goal-3696@reddit

Bait used to be believable

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Stverghame@reddit

Do you speak Romanian or Moldovan?

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Efficient_Resource15@reddit

In the case of moldova romanian is oficially recognised as it's language now, but there are indeed people especially older people from there calling it moldavian :)))

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stray__bullet@reddit

In Moldova official language is Romanian despite more people stated they speak Moldovan. In Montenegro official language is Montenegrin despite more people stated they speak Serbian.

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Efficient_Resource15@reddit

Moldavian language doesn't exist, it's 98% the same as romanian

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stray__bullet@reddit

Montenegrin is 100% same as Serbian.

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Efficient_Resource15@reddit

And I am also being generous with 98%, since its 100% if we count the moldavian dialect of romania, romania is also a region within our country

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deviendrais@reddit

True but unlike with “Moldovan” and Romanian, Serbian and Montenegrin don’t have differences in grammar.

🇷🇴Vine repede
🇲🇩 Repede vine

🇷🇴 Elevii ale căror cărți
🇲🇩 Elevii cărțile cărora

In our eyes this is enough to classify Romanian and Moldovan as being from unrelated language families lol

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Efficient_Resource15@reddit

Yeah, that is cause this whole region suffers from mental illness xd

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Stverghame@reddit

And Serbian language is the most spoken language in Montenegro. You're free to check the census results.

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Efficient_Resource15@reddit

It's all serbo-croatian, I didn't even argue with it bro, I am on your side

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Stverghame@reddit

Even if it wasn't "Serbo-Croatian", Montenegro still speaks Serbian (separate from Bosnian and Croatian), that's the point. You may check the comments to see how people disagree with it, just because it is Serbian. I am just stating my point, while the initial comment (now delated) declared this as ragebait even though the question is valid.

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Efficient_Resource15@reddit

Isn't serbo-croatian sort of the accepted name of the language? I suppose different dialects exist. I always saw the fact that it's called serbo-croatian to show the sort of continuum of the language and it's variety while still being the same.

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Stverghame@reddit

It is a sensitive topic for some people, so I'll avoid giving you any details in order to avoid 20 comment notifications. But you're on the right track, that's what I'll say.

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Ok-Goal-3696@reddit

Romanian ofc, im just pointing out that this post was made for karma farming. These type of posts get a lot of comments.

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fatgirlcuddler@reddit

It's essentially a need for a country to "legitimize" itself through language manipulation. Though calling any of these Serbo-Croatian standards as their own "languages" is incredibly inaccurate

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Agreed.

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unofficiall67@reddit

we should just call our language slavic and everybody happy

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PasicT@reddit

They didn't invent anything, the Montenegrin language has been around for centuries.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Wait until you hear another nonsense - Bosnian language.

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

I am personally older than the Montenegrin language

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PasicT@reddit

No you aren't, that's the kind of idiocies that Serbs say when they claim other ethnic groups are in fact closeted Serbs who betrayed their blood and similar nonsense.

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Training_Shine_111@reddit

to be fair, that's exactly how everyone else in the world thinks about it. Yugoslavia broke up just to become smaller shitty corrupt countries. Look at the Germans, there is more diversity between the regions in Germany when it comes to language and culture than there is between Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, & Montenegrins.

And what do all of you strive for? Leave the Yugoslavian bloc to enter the EU bloc. it's quite pathetic to look at.

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PasicT@reddit

We strive to enter the EU bloc so much that only 2 out of 6-7 countries have made it.

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Training_Shine_111@reddit

If you see what the remaining out countries are doing just to be considered, uff.. Tito turning in his grave as we speak.

And yes, now there is no alternative, but there was an alternative and you guys killed it.

There are countries smaller than Croatia that have multiple religions and remain one country. There are countries like the Netherlands that have a region with a completely different language, and still this region is part of the Netherlands. What makes Croatia so special, what makes Serbia so special, or Bosnia? You all speak the same language, eat the same food, and have the same attitudes. The differences are smaller than Catalan and Basque people. And though these regions bitch and moan for years, they at least have the sense to not break up officially.

Seriously, all I've heard in my years in the Balkans is how hundred years old events are the reason for *** fill in the blanks ***

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

To be fair, the Netherlands have quite a large population, several time Croatia’s

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phantoms1n@reddit

4x the population, Croatia has less people then Toronto lol

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phantoms1n@reddit

My brother, you said it best. This is the cold hard truth.

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crivycouriac@reddit (OP)

Google’s AI said that Montenegrin only exists since 2007

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PasicT@reddit

I don't care what AI has to say about it.

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phantoms1n@reddit

My father's side of the family is from Montenegro, one of my cousins identifies as Serb his brother identifies as Crnogorac...thats it in a nutshell, to me they are Serbs with an identity crisis. Divide and conquer

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PasicT@reddit

Serbs consider all non-Serbs in the area to be "Serbs with an identity crisis".

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phantoms1n@reddit

Learn some history.

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TheEagle74m@reddit

I am older than Slovenia 😂

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Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit

Why did they not just continue using Serbian instead of inventing this new thing?

Because they were free to do so.

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msoc@reddit

My favorite reply

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Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit

My favorite is "because I/they can", but I though that the one I wrote here is more appropriate :)

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7elevenses@reddit

They are still speaking štokavian or serbo-croatian or BCMS or naški or whatever you want to call it. They just want their separate name for it, and that makes as much and as little sense as for Serbian, or Croatian, or Bosnian.

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

Does it make the same exact sense as Serbian, or Croatian, if Serbs and Croats were to ones to actually standardise it?

If it was called štokavian, there would be higher chances the language would still be called the same, and it would still be the same standardised language by Serbs and Croats.

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7elevenses@reddit

Having separate names for the same thing makes exactly the same sense, regardless who's doing it.

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

I guess the US should start calling it American.

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Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

They do? American English

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

No no, just American. Same as here.

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sjedinjenoStanje@reddit

Or as little sense as Slovenians claiming they speak something other than kajkavski.

Relax, just kidding

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7elevenses@reddit

Well, much of Eastern and South-Eastern Slovenian dialects are literally the same natural language as Kajkavian. Separate standardization did its thing in the meantime, so modern speech is diverging, but it's not exactly controversial to notice that.

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jinawee@reddit

Why are you trolling every day? You wanna get banned from the sub? https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBalkans/comments/1thtyb7/removed_by_moderator/

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Granwinter@reddit

OMG! Is it because of the James Bond Game?!?
It’s a fucking reference to Casino Royale. Later on that mussion in the game they explained that Arrowhead Balkan gang is the main culprit… Spoilersss!

Now for the language issue… South Slavic langs are distinct eniugh in grammar and syntax to be called by the country’s name. Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Macedonian . Sorry id I missed some.
Then you have Hungarian… From Attila the Hun trough Mongols…. The hardest lang to understand.

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