All straight men should wholeheartedly support all gay men, as they are reducing our competition.
Posted by money101lover@reddit | CrazyIdeas | View on Reddit | 97 comments
They are effectively reducing our competition.
A gay man not only takes himself out of the dating pool but he also takes another gay man out of the pool with him, making it so for every gay man that exists, 2 women are going to be freed up.
DeadHamsterx@reddit
We support you bro
void_method@reddit
Yeah, but this implies that women are good at picking men who aren't gay, and judging by all the advice columns I've seen they're about 50-50 on that...
imjustarandomsquid@reddit
The second point isn't mathematically true though. It's not like every gay man turns a straight man gay when he dares them — his date was already counted as a gay man separately.
money101lover@reddit (OP)
Technically the truth as i pointed out to a other commentator if a man is forced to stay closeted and the society just punishes homosexuality they might never come out and forcefully live like a straight man.
Even to the point of getting married to a woman and having kids.
ImpliedRange@reddit
It doesn't matter if you point it out 100 times, it's still incorrect
JDMcompliant@reddit
What's incorrect about that statement
ImpliedRange@reddit
It's funny, when it comes to logic it is often easier to point out the flaw in something that is close to correct. For example it's pretty easy to point out why 77+33 doesn't equal 100
"oh i see what you've done, because 7+3=10 you've mentally rounded it and forgotten to carry the 1 at the end"
Whereas this feels similar to ask why 77+33 doesn't equal 291 - it's really quite hard to think which logical jump which you should have made was missed
So to answer, I think we should note all the logical assumptions made for this to be true, and we'll see they are *almost all* false, I've emphasised for some reason where I think we've committed this heinous act.
So firstly, men in society must be split into 3 categories (and a 4th and 5th secret one which we will ignore for simplicity)
Happily Straight men
Happily Gay men
Closeted gay men
(closeted gay men, and bisexuals)
now you as a straight man have dating competition from closeted gay men only for some reason (this one may not be immediately obvious but of course we have to assume there are no closeted gay women that a lesbian can nab from us)
Gay men will necessarily need to find love, if they can't find a man they will settle for a woman for some reason
by declaring your support at an individual level to closeted gay men you will convince them to live their best life and they will focus additional effort on finding a partner, in fact they will necessarily find a *currently* closeted gay man, rather than choosing from the pool of happily gay men for some reason
There is a theoretically infinite pool of these closeted men, that is let's assume i convince every gay man in the city totalling 500,000 of them to come out, they will find another 500,000 men to remove from the dating pool for some reason
We also have to broadly assume we can declare open support of gay men in a way that keeps gay women repressed for some reason but this is similar to my first inconsistency
all of these assumptions have to hold, or the math isn't mathing, tbf there are a bunch of broadly true/irrelevant assumptions too but listing them would be tedious - humans employ a binary mating strategy, and everyone will find love eventually for example...
DFtin@reddit
You’re overthinking this. A welcoming and supporting society reduces the number of gay men that end up in a marriage with a straight or bisexual woman (a woman that can in principle be happily married to a straight man).
Thats it. If you want to go a step beyond, you’d say that the same society allows lesbians to marry lesbians. That’s true, but also beyond the purpose and point of this sub. “Well technically” attitude doesn’t really fit here.
JDMcompliant@reddit
I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, because I do want to understand what your line of thinking is. I feel like you have a coherent argument in there somewhere, but I honestly can't get to the root of it.
Your analogy at the top is good - it really does make sense why a slightly incorrect answer is easier to follow logically. However, I can't find the point you're making in the rest of the comment.
You firstly state we need to split all men into 3 categories. I'm not sure why this was done, as I don't think it helped the argument. I thought you were going to do something with those different splits, math-wise, but I split them mentally and didn't have to do anything with them while reading the rest of the comment.
Moving on to your comment about me, as a straight man. It reads as if it going to be a statement of fact at first, especially since we are just coming from the categories thing: "Now you as a straight man..." By the end, due to the "for some reason", I have to reframe my thinking. I think you are framing this as a logical assumption that isn't true?
Similar critique to the statements that begin with "Gay men will necessarily find love..." and "by declaring your support...." What part of these statements are the logically assumptions?
Your rhetorical for some reason is confusing me as a reader, more than enhancing your point.
Another confusion in this statement:
You set up the statement with "infinite pool", setting up the expectation that we're going to dive into the amount of gay men being inexhaustible. Then you immediately pivot into a concrete number. Are you saying that if you convince 500,000 closeted gay man, they will pair up with another 500,000 closeted gay men (from the pool of infinite)? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say in this one.
I'm going to rewrite what I think you are saying, and you can tell me if I'm understanding:
The original statement is false, because in order for it to be true, we are making several assumptions (assumptions that are nearly guaranteed incorrect):
Is that your argument? I want to understand it first so I can counter it.
Again, I hope this isn't coming across the wrong way. I do genuinely want to understand your line of thinking - you've clearly put thought into examples, but your overall argument structure is hard to follow.
ImpliedRange@reddit
apologies for the confusion, i'll try and break down some of what you've asked
This for example, my argument is that every single one of these assumptions and more need to be true to logically conclude that convincing 1 gay man out of the closet removes 2 men from your dating pool rivals
I'll put my points less into where the logic breaks down and simply state the truths
1) Pro LGB support will likely help as many women as men come out, reducing your rivals but also reducing your pool - although this is a good thing, I'd rather not end up married to a lesbian and suffer a dead bedroom, it doesn't actually improve your numbers
2) Closeted gay men are already not entirely marrying women rather than some of them being perennial bachelors, you know or having a 'roommate' for 50 years. These men were already not *actually* competing with you in the dating scene
3) There are already single openly gay men for anyone you convert to scoop up, taking 1 man away from pretend to be straight doesn't mean he will find a 2nd closeted man, he'll likely join the already existing scene
4) the gist of the 4th point is lack of scalability, if we add 10 men to an already thriving pool of Gay men we'll expect 5 more sets of partners, not 10
5) Same point as 1 just a different part of the logical steps
You've broadly hit points 1 2 and 3 with
as long as any of these things are not 100% accurate, you are statistically reducing <2 men form the competition
the 4th point is more important as it strictly argues the reduction is 1
JDMcompliant@reddit
Thanks! I appreciate the reply on this.
I do at large agree with you. Pro LGBT attitudes will affect both sexes in general - for as many closeted gay men (dating women) you remove from the dating pool, you remove that many closeted gay women (dating men). Effectively a net neutral.
Ultimately, we can leave it at that. That would be the effect.
Point 2 - true. Closeted gay men who come out are not entirely marrying women, but I want to point out that some do. In fact, pre-1990s, it was relatively common. Per a study in 1978, 35 percent of gay white males and 13 percent of gay black males reported having been married to a woman - actively taking those women out of the dating pool. Post-2015, this number has dropped to 1-2%, largely due to LGBT lifestyles being more supported. So, while the broad point of "not all closeted gay men are taking one straight woman from the dating pool" is correct, the nuance is that some do.
Again, "improving our dating pool" due to LGBT support is not true, because once you add lesbians into the math, we go back to net neutral. In fact, our numbers are worse because according to that same study: 47 percent of black lesbians and 20 percent of white lesbians had been married to a man. According to the study, our competition pool grew larger!
Finally though, going back to the original comment and reply:
I think this statement in isolation is true. If a man is forced to stay closeted due to society, they might never come out. They will marry a woman and have kids. I know examples of this in real life.
That is why I asked why you commented that the above comment is incorrect, because I disagree in regards to that in isolation. If we look at the broader story of "our math is better due to LGBT support," I think we both agree - it doesn't check out.
For the record - I do support LGBT relationships and think everyone should date who they find happiness with.
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NiceTryAmanda@reddit
oh honey you just haven't met the right gay man yet ❤️
Exciting-Car-3516@reddit
Duh. Best way to get a girl is at a gay bar
Sensitive_Housing_85@reddit
Correct, I mean I support that no matter what, but this makes sense as well.
OnTheIL@reddit
I'm all about being an ally but this is one of the wildest rationales I've ever heard. I guess whatever drives you to do the right thing is good
IVeryDislikeTrump@reddit
Always be loving the gays and lesbians brothers and sisters out there, except i cannot in good conscience say the same for the transgender people
Amazing_Loquat280@reddit
I support all gay men, but this rationale is forgetting about 🌈✨lesbians✨🌈
BextoMooseYT@reddit
Well I'd assume OP is a straight man, so for him lesbians don't help, and in fact decrease the dating pool lol
ClownEmoji-U1F921@reddit
Gay men outnumber lesbians at 4 to 1 ratio. So this is a win for the straight dudes.
antonio16309@reddit
Yeah but we secretly think that we could "turn" lesbians if given a chance to demonstrate our skills.. /s
PM_Your_Wiener_Dog@reddit
My skills have already turned several to lesbianism
yankblan79@reddit
I’m Kramer, let me bring them back
Yeseylon@reddit
So you're the guy version of my sister, who's given me plenty of her leftovers. (Semi-joke, she does have gay exes)
mercury_pointer@reddit
Because they even the best didn't do it for them, right?
PM_Your_Wiener_Dog@reddit
Not exactly, but I tried hard
Ok_Ordinary6694@reddit
Hey. Me too. I thought I was just bad at sex and liked sporty girls.
Amazing_Loquat280@reddit
So it’s YOUR fault!!
JackhusChanhus@reddit
I helped turn one 😆 she was dabbling beforehand, but dating her definitely cemented the bi 😍
Nate_Christ@reddit
I love lesbians because they'll never make the mistake of fucking OP
money101lover@reddit (OP)
In that case just love everyone, cause no one will make the mistake of fucking me anyways.
Nate_Christ@reddit
That's the spirit
money101lover@reddit (OP)
HELL YEAH
xavPa-64@reddit
I’m a guy and I once had the hugest crush on this girl who turned out to be a lesbian. And when I saw her girlfriend, I was like “ya know what? I’d pick her over me too lol” and I felt a certain sense of closure that I never had a chance, without having to risk asking my best friends cousin out lol
ImAvoidingABan@reddit
Because they increase competition!
abccba140@reddit
I mean the logic ain’t wrong
say592@reddit
I wholeheartedly support gay men because they are fellow bros who deserve our support.
Kaslight@reddit
... why do you think you're competing with gay men?
Are you gay????
Vreas@reddit
Instead of seeing other men as competition just focus on yourself.
It’s only competition if your girl ain’t loyal.
Infinite-Penalty-495@reddit
It is competition if you don't have a girlfriend lol.
Infinite-Penalty-495@reddit
I agree with the title but your math is off. A gay man will only take himself out of the dating pool. He may take another gay man, but that man was already gay, so it's still 1 man/gay man
countrytime1@reddit
Easy Ralphie May
Kflynn1337@reddit
Plus, it's proven that having a gay best friend is actually a pretty good way of getting dates with women. I mean, the fashion advice alone is worth it!
Financial_Tour5945@reddit
By that logic are you against lesbian woman for increasing competition?
LSDelivery@reddit
But what about when gay men hit on straight men? Not fun
Legitimate-Web-5540@reddit
I’m not really mad at gay men for being gay in itself. But I do have some points of frustration or fear:
It seems like gay men revel in trying to make straight men look bad in front of women. No I know there’s a lot of shit gay men have had to put up with over the years, but I didn’t do any of that. Why are they always trying to play the victim ”you don’t need that honey!” card in front of women? So they are reducing competition but they are also throwing hand grenades like party favors. Kind of an “I’m not in this game, so lemme troll the shit out of it” vibe. Not helping.
I never forget they are still men. Men are rapey jerks, they are strong and they will fuck you up. I think a lot of men are threatened by the concept that they may get dominated physically and sexually, and/or humiliated at the same time. I am well aware that the rapey part doesn’t represent the vast majority of gay men (same for heterosexual men), but the fact that a heterosexual man is suddenly vulnerable to rape is kinda unsettling. We see what women go through, it’s scary, and most guys have a hard time processing that.
Still no ill will towards gay men, just not saying it’s a freebie “yay more girls for me”
Darkforces134@reddit
CollegeHumor had a great video on this 13 years ago
point5_@reddit
No, because gay men wouldn't date women if they weren't dating men. The only scenario where this is the case is with bisexual men, which a quick google search says is about 1.6% of men in the U.S. (to be taken with a grain of salt but should serve as a gross estimation).
Naa2078@reddit
They are also GREAT wingmen.
No_Tennis_4528@reddit
To really support gay men, help them adopt.
Free up room in the child care system for the hypothetical fruits of your imaginary conquests.
iliketurtlesthey69@reddit
They shouldn’t be allowed near children
buzzon@reddit
What are you talking about? Gay men never were in competition with straight men to begin with.
money101lover@reddit (OP)
Yea i know that you are not a competition but the thing is many gay men who are not allowed to come out actually have to forcefully live like a straight man and even get married and have kids, there have been many such cases.
lamb_passanda@reddit
That is a very good point.
athomsfere@reddit
Yes. We should all act like decent human beings.
My, what!?
Viewing this as a zero sum game feels like the worst way to approach this. Like, just don't be a piece of shit person.
If you only do a good thing because it rewards you, it isn't really a moral win.
lamb_passanda@reddit
You can try all you like, there are always going to be people that feel that we are in our essence no more than tribal, hairless apes who are as beholden to the laws of natural selection as any other lifeform, complex or not.
apocalypse_later_@reddit
To add to this, gay dudes are usually some handsome motherfuckers too. Taking the lethal ones out of the competition is the best thing that can happen for straight men 😂
lamb_passanda@reddit
As a straight guy I like the fact that we have homosexuality in our species, because it provides a vital bridge between the two main genders. Gay men very often have straight female friends, and gay women often have straight male friends. Everyone intermingles a bit more.I strongly feel that this is the real reason why religious theology often 'forbids' homosexuality, because it leads to a blurring of the lines, and that makes it harder to to enact what is a - let's face it - almost ubiquitously patriarchal society.
Budsygus@reddit
This seems like you think being gay is a choice.
Unhappy_Weakness881@reddit
Technically someone being gay does not cause another to be gay but still the point about reducing competition still stands
GulfCoastLaw@reddit
I'm not scared of the competition. Just treating our gay brothers with respect because I'm a decent guy haha.
Not ducking the smoke though!
squired@reddit
But as a straight man, it's not really fair, is it? They get to play with all those penises. It's not right! If we don't get to play with penises, then no one can! I guess the women can, who cares about them.
gravity_kills@reddit
You can go ahead and ask some gay guys. Maybe some of them will be generous and let you play with some penises.
squired@reddit
Eww! Not funny! They can have em! Though they shouldn't.. I'm just pointing out that it isn't fair. Ya know? How about we all just leave the penises alone, pretty or not!
gravity_kills@reddit
Personally I don't find any penises pretty, but if you do that's totally fine. Like I said, if you start looking I bet you can find a gay guy who will give you a chance to do a bit of exploration. Maybe you'll learn something about yourself.
GulfCoastLaw@reddit
Get you a man who can do both.
Routine_Condition273@reddit
No. Not anymore. Not since September 10th.
Comprehensive-Sink10@reddit
As a homosexual male I always thought about that and also we’re a great source for population control.
Still_Opinion_6621@reddit
support them how?
perfumed_with_gas@reddit
If you don't specify the limits of self-interested affiliation, then some straight men could also withhold support for gay men, because support for gay men makes a kind of sexualization of male bodies more socially intelligible / legible, and some self-interested straight men may not want that.
Winthefuturenow@reddit
Been saying this for decades
ButterAlquemist@reddit
100% agree. Also, in my opinion, they usually are nicer than average people.
Objective_Mousse7216@reddit
Yes, turn gay you handsome bastards!
S-ludin@reddit
bi erasure lol
dominodog@reddit
I’m going the other way.
They set the bar too high then opt out of the game.
Gay guys tend to be fit, dress well, and have a face regimen done daily.
Women then seen what is possible and expect the rest of us to live up to that level.
What used to called metrosexual is now just expected. AND I BLAME GAY MEN.
I miss being able to slay dressed like a grungy slob.
Now I have a daily face routine 😒
Big-Penalty-6897@reddit
I'm not in the same dating pool as gay men.
Thank_You42@reddit
I love that this implies that straight men should discourage and become enemies with Lesbians as they are increasing competition.
Iron_Baron@reddit
I already do. Where else are we going to get our fashion, new catch phrases, decor ideas, etc.?
Gay, black, Hispanic, and other minority groups have always disproportionately impacted pip culture.
realityinflux@reddit
And these two women? Are they dating each other?
money101lover@reddit (OP)
Reddit is against homophobia, i can't comment on that.
TwoBeesOrNotTwoBees@reddit
Wait til this guy finds out about lesbians
CKN_SD_001@reddit
Why would two gay men be a competition for a straight men to begin with? It's not that this a choice, right?
peterjohnvernon936@reddit
I am out of the competition because I am a married man.
Optimal_Duty7521@reddit
Pretty sure my insecure, constantly macho signaling former coworker was self-loathing, in the closet, and getting married to a beard.
Dude was miserable to work with, constantly one upping me, taking everything as a challenge, and talking about my physique suspiciously often.
I fully support him being open and chilling out.
capsaicinintheeyes@reddit
Very well...but in exchange, gay men will have to support us by no longer facilitating our wives' dishing on how much we drive them nuts and they wish we were more like y'all
huggernot@reddit
I whole heartidly support gay men. Tired of standing, penis cold? Come lay down and keep it warm.
BenjaminHamnett@reddit
Obviously. Gay literally means happy, the rest of us heteros are jealous
CarlJustCarl@reddit
I realized this in college. I tried to encourage other men to go gay in order to increase my odds with the women. Oh you got rejected for a date - that sucks, have you tried going gay? Never could figure out a good way to phrase it.
Bright_Curve3078@reddit
Instructions unclear, ended up having a passionate night with a rejected dude.
VinceP312@reddit
As a gay guy.. our partner ratio is much much much higher than 1:1. Lol.
JakeDuck1@reddit
I support all gay men because everyone deserves love and respect, not because it selfishly reduces my “competition”.
PM_Your_Wiener_Dog@reddit
You should support all humans, so not crazy. Crazy would be paying to suck straight dick in an effort to "turn the worm", which if also support.
iHateReddit_srsly@reddit
We weren't competition in the first place. But sure, yeah, we'd appreciate any support!
money101lover@reddit (OP)
Yea i know that you are not a competition but the thing is many gay men who are not allowed to come out actually have to forcefully live like a straight man and even get married and have kids, there have been many such cases.
dathree@reddit
There is a line between stupid and crazy.
This idea is not crazy.
Sundburnt@reddit
Hell yeah, brother.