Used to slam it on three, now CFIs yell at me for holding the nose off too long

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rdrcrmatt@reddit

What’s your approach speed and in which model Cirrus?

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AdAdministrative5330@reddit

The cirrus handbook numbers work. Try to hit those numbers - appropriate to the conditions - neither faster nor slower.

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mrb13676@reddit

Ask your Doctor if a slower approach speed is right for you.

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CharlieFoxtrot000@reddit

For reference: if the video is in real-time, they went 200 feet in 1.5 seconds immediately before touching down, which is about 79 knots.

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This is the answer right here. All of this would be solved by you actually flying an appropriate approach speed. You're carrying way too much speed to the runway, which is usually the culprit of three point/bounce landings because people try to force the plane on the ground before it's ready to stop flying, which is exactly what you did in this video.

As u/colin_do said. SLOW DOWN.

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Skymogul@reddit

Bingo. You shouldn't *be able* to hold the nose up for that long...

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FlyingShadow1@reddit

The reason you're bouncing is because you have not stalled the airplane.

Stall the airplane while in ground effect. It sounds more complicated than it is but unless your airplane is a swept wing or has some extremely unforgiving stall characteristics (and you would know if it did) there is no danger.

Do not land it on all 3, otherwise known as a flat landing. If you do that in a nose heavy airplane (nearly every high performance airplane) you will porpoise.

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Low_Sky_49@reddit

If your CFI can’t coach you through fixing this, find a better CFI. You aren’t holding it off too long. You’re holding it off as long as you need to for the amount of excess energy you’ve brought the plane into ground effect with. If your CFI isn’t happy with how much runway you’re eating up to achieve a nose high touchdown attitude, they need to get you over the runway with less speed.

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Ok_Witness179@reddit

This. So many people think extra speed on landing is extra safety. No. The manufacturer picked the safest speed. Use that, and you won't float forever when you get to the runway.

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SaltyCAPtain1933@reddit

This is the way

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Fluid_Maybe_6588@reddit

This is the correct answer

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thesexychicken@reddit

The second landing looked fine.

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korb1ndallas@reddit

He’s nearly current with one pass.

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ltcterry@reddit

OP should have edited the clip just a bit more 😄

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N40189@reddit

AMT here hold the nose wheel off as long as you can it is NOT part of the landing gear. Only conventional gear airplanes make three point landings.

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thesexychicken@reddit

From the Cirrus SR20 POH (P/N 11934-003 Revision A5) Short Field Landing:

"Touchdown should be made power-off and on the main wheels first. Immediately after touchdown, lower the nose wheel and apply braking as required."

Note: My emphasis added.

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PROfessorShred@reddit

The fact that you are using the word slam to describe you landing technique tells me before even watching the video that you are doing something wrong.

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xtalgeek@reddit

Your approach speed seems too high. The porpoise suggests that the plane is not slowed enough to land, plus the nose isn't all that high, suggesting you are trying to force the plane into the runway to early. If you have the proper approach speed and flare, the airplane will plant when the main wheels touch and not try to fly again. Go back to the POH and look up the proper final approach speed range. Aim for the middle to bottom of that.

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storyinmemo@reddit

That's called a soft field landing technique and it's just fine. You can let it down gently sooner so you can apply brakes sooner.

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JSTootell@reddit

My CFI always preached that every landing was a soft field landing, unless it was short field. He's been flying for 40 years.

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yeahgoestheusername@reddit

Are reducing to idle before the flare? Seems like you’re holding in some power which means a longer rollout that you need to have.

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thepriceisright__@reddit

I don’t know what porpoise they’d have for that

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Wild-Language-5165@reddit

Yup, you still have quite a bit of energy, that's why it wants to take off again, you're probably flying your approach too fast to begin with, or likewise not slowing down quick enough.

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Time_Performance_688@reddit

Any cfi getting mad about holding the nose off for too long is just making shit up

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greaseorbounce@reddit

Holding the nose off is not why you have a ballooning and bouncing problem. Flying the airplane onto the runway at cruise speed is. :D

Joking aside: it really seems like your speed over the fence is quite a bit too high, and you're landing very flat as a result. Unless you're fighting some insane gust factor or something, this is likely entirely unnecessary, and I bet you'll find that reducing speed on short final will cure the issue.

I very rarely let the little wheel touch the ground until I'm nearly out of elevator unless I specifically need it planted for some control reason. In fact, that's usually my technique regardless of which end of the plane the little wheel is on.

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OracleofFl@reddit

That wasn't an issue of holding it off too long, it was about forcing down a plane not ready to land because its speed was too fast. Shouldn't be able to touch down and lift off afterward. It should "stall" down on its own.

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TrekPilot@reddit

Your speed management sucks. Work on that and it'll be golden. Hint: practice slow flights.

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jimbowie10@reddit

Be strict on your landing speeds

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ronniebabes@reddit

Cirrus approach is 78

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mctomtom@reddit

They probably want you to put the plane down on the ground a bit more precisely since you will need to meet ACS standards eventually. (+400 feet from specified landing spot for a normal landing for PPL)

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TheArtisticPC@reddit

Holding the nose off for an exceptionally long time is indicative of too much energy. You should touch down nose high and you should be continually increasing back pressure to try and hold the nose off. Touch down should occur at or slightly above stall speed. Think of it as entering slow flight right before touchdown, where any increase in pitch or decrease in airspeed would result in stall indication.

This will help with your bouncing too. As you know, controls are more effective with higher airspeeds. If you reduce airspeed, then the controls will be less effective (sensitive) and thus reduce the chance for bouncing the mains or skipping the nose wheel.

It’s fairly important to land like this. If you are floating or bouncing down the runway, you are liable to enter an upset by wind shear, gusts, or wake.

Beyond safety, this will also make your landings more predictable and accurate. So when you take your checkride, you’ll actually hit your touchdown point instead of floating and bouncing 1000 feet down range before you start hitting the brakes.

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PrimaryFree8574@reddit

Bro ur like 30 kts over Vref. ur floating like 1,000 ft, this looks like a OEI pattern landing lmao

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Misterslate@reddit

Do you have a VGSI at that runway?

What are you flaps settings on final?

What airspeed are you flying when you transition your eyes from 1/3 down the runway to the horizon? Hopefully you're doing one speed check at that point.

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Mountain-Captain-396@reddit

Its easy to land softly when you come in 20 kts fast

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TheViceroy919@reddit

Bro paid for the whole runway so he's gonna use the whole runway

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SayNoTo-Communism@reddit

Likely just a little too much speed on short approach. Pull a little more power once you enter ground effect to account for the reduced induced drag and you’ll be fine.

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live_drifter@reddit

You wouldn’t bounce if you weren’t coming in too fast

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LowValueAviator@reddit

How long you hold the nose off is technique and not an issue unless it’s a specific maneuver, e.g. soft field, where longer nose off is desirable, or short field, where nose off indicates you are failing to deliver max braking.

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highflyer10123@reddit

Technically every landing should be a soft field landing (where you hold the nose off for as long as possible after the mains touch).

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mkosmo@reddit

Are you carrying way too much speed, by chance? That's what the video looks like without knowing any other details. Lots and lots of float.

But to your question: There's nothing wrong with holding the nose off until you can't, especially if there isn't a runway length consideration or you're not trying to get off quickly for traffic.

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SituationalAnanas@reddit

Well I’m no cfi, but I have flown airliners for 10 years and to me the most important thing about the landing is that it should be safe. By floating, bouncing and keeping the nose up you are using the runway and eating the margins a lot more than just landing on the marks and applying brakes.

Granted it’s not a problem when you have a cirrus and 2km’s of runway, but you should still probably train the correct way right at the start.

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TemporaryAmbassador1@reddit

Solid, with the caveat of soft field technique, then OP should be easing the nose down under control, not waiting till it runs out of lift and dumps.

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rtd131@reddit

Also not a CFI but it looks like they landed a bit flat which caused a bit of a bounce at first. If they would have kept pulling back when the mains touched down they would have bled off airspeed and remained on the ground.

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Beech_driver@reddit

When I was in the military, I remember watching an F15 landing and noted that he seemed to keep that nose up for what seemed like half the runway before finally letting it drop … I wasn’t used to seeing the nose up that long.

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SerDuckOfPNW@reddit

My guess is that the military airplanes land with so much speed they need aero braking to reduce wear.

They can stop faster, but a more conservative technique reduces maintenance.

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ashishvp@reddit

Depends on the aircraft. F-18 frames are deliberately designed to stop on a dime, with the cables on a Carrier.

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buckelfipps@reddit

Why are you landing so fast?? Lose that energy boy

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Happy-Table-9515@reddit

Be wary of the 250 wonder CFIs…..

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runway31@reddit

its fine as long as you dont go off the runway.

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AdditionalWx314@reddit

Early training, particularly in Cessnas, trains people to keep the nose wheel off for a long time and even to hold it off. This doesn’t translate well to larger high performance aircraft doing instrument landings.
Set an attitude (nose just above mains) on final and establish your target speed (do you know your target speed), use throttle to control descent rate, just before touchdown lift the nose (flare) just enough (a couple degrees of deck angle) to burn off the last bit of flying airspeed and reduce descent rate, touch down on the mains, and gently the lower the nose.

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Both_Coast3017@reddit

You are coming in too fast with too much energy. You don’t want to skip down the runway.

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CAVU1331@reddit

You are coming in fast if you can land and takeoff again like that.

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m4a785m@reddit

I'd be more worried about your approach speed than your landing technique

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This-Aardvark-1431@reddit

Short answer, smooth touchdown on the mains, gently lower the nose to the ground, reduce lift to increase braking effectiveness. Aerodynamic braking after touchdown is less effective than brakes unless you have brake issues.

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Ancient-Dust3077@reddit

So basically a soft field landing

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appenz@reddit

Although, I found it easier and more effective to keep the nose up longer on the Cirrus than on any other plane I have flown. It floats less than the Cessna so the touchdown point is a bit more predictable. And keeping the nose up (and raising flaps) helps with landing distance. PAO's runway is 2,400 ft so that mattered for me.

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Full_Imagination_890@reddit

How fast are you going? That looks like you've got a bit too much speed to bleed off when you're rounding out. Slow down by 5 or 10 knots see how that plays out.

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Big-Carpenter7921@reddit

Three landings in one video

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Pretty_Marsh@reddit

No! Unless you need braking immediately, holding the nose off is good form and helps you slow down. Plus you're in a Cirrus, so it's not like you're going to get nosewheel steering or something. Only critique on your landing here is that you had a bit too much energy, which caused the bounce. If you work on bleeding your speed off through managing your attitude to maintain a gentle descent rate in ground effect that should help. You'll probably end up with the nose slightly higher at touchdown, which isn't a bad thing. Then just keep the nose at that attitude until it's ready to start coming down. If you get really good at it the nosewheel will hit right as the elevator hits full deflection.

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BathFullOfDucks@reddit

I mean, it does depend on the runway available. Aerobraking is valid in GA but a poor substitute for actual braking if you don't have the distance for it. Aside from that it only becomes a problem if.you are doing what you say you are doing, letting the aircraft run out if speed and drop the nosewheel on the runway. That is uncontrolled and a chap near me who flew the same type as I did broke the nose wheel and prop and bent his engine mount doing the same thing with gusto.

He then tried to sell me the aircraft, but thats another frustrating story.

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AGEdude@reddit

If they are trying to teach a short field landing then they are correct. Otherwise I think it's nice to keep the nose up for a while, as long as you aren't dealing with a strong crosswind.

Now, if you miss your exit unnecessarily or if you find yourself hard braking after the nose finally comes down, I can see why they would be annoyed. Just do an appropriate landing for the runway and/or the exercise.

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Cparker_11@reddit

In my opinion, you can’t hold the nose off the ground “too long.” The nose should come down on its own naturally, if you do everything right.

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flatulentpiglet@reddit

You’re doing it right. The only negative I can see is that if you’re planning to transition to jets, you’ll adapt this technique and get the nose planted sooner.

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usmcmech@reddit

Your new CFIs are idiots.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Used to plant it on all three at the same time every landing, got chewed out by my CFIs more times than i can count, when they tried to teach me the nose-high setup i ballooned and bounced it, which was its own safety thing, for a while it was either plant all three or bounce it down the runway, no inbetween.

It finally clicked when i transitioned to a cirrus, thought at first it was a cirrus thing, but going back to a cessna the technique still worked, now the CFIs are on me for the opposite, holding the nose off too long on rollout, sometimes i hold it all the way until the airplane runs out of speed and the nose gear settles on its own.

Is that actually dangerous or just looks worse than it is? curious what folks think.

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