Why do modern direct-injection engines suffer carbon deposits more severely, and what’s the most effective prevention method?
Posted by EvelynClede@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 81 comments
Fl4t3ric@reddit
Because they dont spray fuel on the intake valves to cool and clean them. Best is not to dirve like a grandma all the time, give it some throttle for airflow sometimes
nsfbr11@reddit
Best prevention is to buy an EV.
Ambitious_Box_96@reddit
Italian tune up is a real thing, people are surprised when they hear that an engine needs to stretch it's legs every now and then. But srsly you're right just ad it to the giant list of why we shouldn't buy anything made past like 2012.
Jakomako@reddit
Italian tune up doesn’t do shit for a direct injection only engine. Not driving it hard before the engine is fully up to temperature is how you prevent it from happening prematurely. Dual injection engines however, need to be driven hard occasionally because the port injection doesn’t even kick in until the RPM is above a certain point.
Jolrit@reddit
The airflow when taking the engine up to redline can help clear the back of intake valves.
curi0us_carniv0re@reddit
Lol if air could clean off solid carbon deposits there wouldn't be a problem in the first place
Jolrit@reddit
And you think that oil droplets are instantaneously carbonized?
curi0us_carniv0re@reddit
Lol it's not just oil droplets. It's dirt and carbon in the oil. That's hitting a hot valve.
Think about what you're saying. Using your logic if you drove everywhere really fuckin fast the outside your car would never get dirty. Lol it has no basis in reality..
Jolrit@reddit
If there are carbon particles in your oil your engine is fucked.
curi0us_carniv0re@reddit
Tell me you know nothing about cars without telling me you know nothing about cars...
🤣
Of course there's carbon in your oil. Oil picked up dirt and impurities over time. It's only function isn't just lubrication. This is why you have to change your oil. And why it looks dirty when you do. Holy shit.
Jolrit@reddit
I’m not talking about molecular carbon. I’m talking about particles. Are you an asshole in real life or just the internet?
agingcausescancer@reddit
They’ve already carbonized before you introduced all that air.
Jakomako@reddit
That is simply incorrect. The harder you drive a direct injection only engine, the dirtier it gets.
Jolrit@reddit
Are you an engineer?
Jakomako@reddit
I'm actually a mega engineer. Bet you didn't even know that existed.
Jolrit@reddit
It exists in your mind
Jakomako@reddit
Heh, get a load of this joker. Doesn't even know what a mega engineer is. Hah, what a loser.
Ambitious_Box_96@reddit
A surprising amount of engines go bad because they are "Granny driven" look it up. If an engine redlines at 6-7k but only gets driven to 2.5-3k for 50-100k miles it can do serous damage.
Jakomako@reddit
Yes, and we call those engines "Port injected" or "dual injected" because they are not direct injection only.
Ambitious_Box_96@reddit
Direct injected engines are still at risk.
MansomeHan@reddit
I do a combination of things to keep my GDI engine clean and running strong:
Change the oil on the “severed driving conditions” schedule. For my car it’s 3,750 miles—half the maximum distance. The maximum I would go is 5,000 miles.
Use only Top Tier certified gasoline brands. A recent AAA study determined that vehicles that use non-Top Tier gas develop 19X the engine deposits within 4,000 miles than those that did.
Run a bottle of Techron or Red Line fuel system/injector cleaner through the tank prior to each oil change. This cleans the carbon from the injectors and combustion chambers. Cleaners that do not contain polyetheramine (PEA), like Seafoam, are largely useless against the type of carbon deposits that develop in GDI engines. PEA is the strongest, most heat-stable detergent available for gasoline engines.
Do an induction cleaning every 15-30K miles. I use CRC intake valve and turbo cleaner to keep the intake valves free of carbon deposits. There are other chemical products that work as well, but I’ve found CRC to be effective. If it’s been too long and the buildup is too bad, a walnut blast is the best option.
Jakomako@reddit
Direct injection engines are most at risk of carbon buildup on the backs of the intake valves. However, because the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder instead of directly into the backs of the valves, it doesn't matter how hard you run the motor. Carbon buildup is inevitable in a direct injection engine and usually needs to be cleaned around 100-150k miles. The best way to slow down the buildup is to granny drive until the engine is fully up to temp, after that it doesn't matter too much, but the level of buildup is still correlated with the number of combustions, so someone who averages 4000RPM will end up with more buildup vs someone who averages 2500 RPM over the same distance.
ratrodder49@reddit
Part of what causes carbon buildup on the backs of intake valves is oil consumption via the PCV system. One thing you can do to minimize this is a catch can. I installed a $60 eBay catch can on my Hemi and it will catch a few ounces of oil between oil changes.
288bpsmodem@reddit
Also to use lower NOACK oil and use top tier fuel
boostedmike1@reddit
2011 * dpf are mandatory 2012 onwards
Fl4t3ric@reddit
Im still stuck in 1995
boostedmike1@reddit
My block is 1999 too 🙌🏻
Ultrabananna@reddit
Or a Toyota/Lexus or whatever other company that uses a combination of direct and port injection
Past-Judgment-9700@reddit
That’s manufacturers now
jhawk3205@reddit
Best to research that for each make and model, as I'm almost certain some newer Toyota models use gdi
Ultrabananna@reddit
Im almost 100% before 2024 most if not all were still using a combo of port and direct injection but yeah doesn't hurt to double check.
KlamKhowder@reddit
They do. But Toyota uses a system they call "D4S" in most vehicles which is just a port and direct injector per cylinder.
JollyGreenGigantor@reddit
Add Ford to this list as well with their excellent 2.3 and 2.7 Ecoboost engines. I'd put both of them above anything in recent Toyotas, excluding hybrid setups.
Swamp_Hawk_420@reddit
It feels crazy to say it because I grew up in a Toyota family, but my 2.7L F-150 has been significantly more reliable than my father-in-law's 3.4L Tundra
Target_Standard@reddit
And 3.5
Electronic-Youth-286@reddit
Kia/Hyundai with Smartstream engines?
RvstiNiall@reddit
I tried explaining to my brother-in-law why I gassed it to get on the highway one time, and I said this about carbon build-up and he thought I was crazy. Secondary reason: getting up to highway speeds on the on-ramp, duh!
bradland@reddit
In a car with normal port injection or even a carburetor, the fuel is mixed with the air in the intake. This means that the intake valve is "washed" with fuel as it enters the combustion chamber. Gasoline is a pretty effective solvent, so this helps to keep the valves clean.
I'd take issue with your premise though, because "modern" DI engine designs don't have the same issue with carbon deposits. The problem with early DI engine designs is that they simply took regular port-injection engines and converted them to DI without making enough adjustments to other systems.
You have to take a step back and understand how/where the carbon on the intake valves comes from in the first place. Carbon deposits don't just form from air; there has to be a hydrocarbon present. So where does that come from?
When your engine runs, some of the pressure from combustion makes its way past the rings and into the crankcase. This pressurizes the crankcase, which will push oil out of the engine. Not great.
So we need to vent this somewhere. If we vent it into the intake, we can burn it as part of the combustion process. This system is called positive crankcase ventilation (PCV).
Problem is that blow-by isn't the only thing that gets sucked into the intake. The oil in your engine is hot, so it off-gases hydrocarbons. This oil vapor partially burns when it hits your hot intake valves, forming carbon deposits. No problem if you're spraying those valves down with a solvent (gasoline) as the engine runs. With DI, you no longer spray the valves though... Uh oh.
So what's an engineer to do? The most common fix is to design better PCV design. Rather than a small canister style oil separator, most modern PCV systems use elaborate chambers for air flow that allow vapors to condensate and separate out of the air before it is drawn into the intake. Some even use centrifugal or cyclonic separators.
Another common approach is to mix both DI and port MPFI (multi-port fuel injection). Most of the fuel is injected via DI, but a small amount is sprayed in the intake under specific conditions. This keeps emissions down, but also cleans intake ports.
Modern engine oil requirements have also been adjusted to reduce vapor volatility. API SP, for example, is a very common requirement for DI engines, and this standard requires reduced levels of SAPS and lower Noack volatility scores.
That said, some manufacturers don't seem terribly interested in fixing the problem, so your statement is partially true. VAG used dual-injection on EU market EA888 Gen3 engines, but not in North America. Then, with the EA888 Gen 4, they dropped dual-injection globally (WTF!?). Honda, shockingly has refused to fix common engines like their J35Y8. GM's TurboMax found in their trucks lack good solutions to intake buildup.
Ironically, one of the worst early offenders, BMW, have pretty much solved the issue across their entire line. They use dual-injection, along with other mitigation strategies.
All of this is to say that you can't really generalize about DI engines these days, because there is a huge amount of variation in how each manufacturer builds their fueling when DI is present.
k-mcm@reddit
VW changed the intake valves so an "Italian tune-up" is easier. Rather than trying to keep them cold, the valves run hotter. It avoids the middle temperature range where deposits harden.
bradland@reddit
Let's be honest, the VAG solution is pretty mid. There's a reason the EA888 Gen4 is still notorious for carbon build-up. The changes helped a little, but they're no where near as effective as dual-injection. It's a cost-driven solution, not an engineering-driven one.
Grimm199@reddit
Installing a catch can inbetween the PCV and intake manifold can help catch a lot of the oil before it can return unto the intake and onto the valves. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet.
swisstraeng@reddit
best prevention is reprog ECU to keep EGR closed.
Hot_Lava_Dry_Rips@reddit
Sure, but that causes other problems. The ecu may be able to adjust fuel trims to not run lean, but without directly verifying that, I woukdnt just unplug stuff and run it.
DFLDrew@reddit
Why would I want to waste fuel?
swisstraeng@reddit
you save fuel with EGR closed, but make more NOx.
DFLDrew@reddit
I don’t think you understand how EGR works or its purpose.
swisstraeng@reddit
EGR reintroduces exhaust gases in the intake to lower combustion temperatures which result in lowered NOx production.
It does not save fuel in any shape or form, it lowers fuel efficiency slightly but is needed to pass modern emissions.
The downside being that the intake gets clogged up by residue with no easy way to clean them.
Hot_Lava_Dry_Rips@reddit
And the engine uses less fuel when the egr is in operation because its less fresh air to mix with fuel.... If the engine used the same amount of fuel for a charge with some exhaust in it as it did a full fresh air charge, it would run rich. Which most engines dont do. So theyre obviously reducing the amount of fuel accordingly.
DFLDrew@reddit
It reduces pumping losses by allowing the throttle to be held more open. https://youtu.be/Bnpj4eIo6nI
ratrodder49@reddit
Exhaust
Gas
Recirculation
How do you think it works??
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
It's oil vapor that polymerizes on hot intake valves.
On a diesel, sure, deleting EGR is worth it.
Hot_Lava_Dry_Rips@reddit
Because their pcv systems are terrible. The newer ones have better pcv systems that dont recycle oil vapor into the intake nearly as much as they used to. A subst of these cars also use a bit of port injection and that helps as well.
Jumpy_Childhood7548@reddit
Don’t buy one.
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
Most modern (last 5 years) have eliminated carbon build up on DI systems with better PVC systems, additional port injection etc..
But older stuff it was a combination of maintenance habits, driving style and overall poor design
N54s, there was no getting around it. All the VW/Audi stuff was not so bad if folks changed their oil more frequently and used good oil, they would see carbon a issue at 100,000 miles or so.
MB never suffered this issues (not including diesel) as their PVC system was very simple and effective
GlitteringPen3949@reddit
We have a 2019 Honda Fit with dirrect injection and I was thinking about an oil catch can to keep oil from the PCV getting into the intake. Good idea?
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
No, they're a unnecessary piece of kit that just adds weekly maintenance and more failure points for minimal gains.
GlitteringPen3949@reddit
So it won’t cut down on oil deposited on the back of the intake valves?
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
Maybe, but it requires you to keep the internal baffled clean and the canister drained.
Really, thyre never worth it in a oem daily setup. Project car, performance build, sure. But a 7 year old Honda Fit, it's hardly worth the trouble.
GlitteringPen3949@reddit
She plans on keeping it a long time. And if the can will cut down on valve build up cleaning the can is no biggie
gemini56_@reddit
If the canister is filling up weekly, that's really a point in favour of a catch can, otherwise all of those oil vapors would be fed back into the intake tract unfiltered.
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
Not necessarily
Most CCV have a drain back feature, meaning the oil won't end up in the intake.
Every catch can I've seen has the option to connect a drain to the canister but almost no one does this. Ideally, this would be the best case, but they're still needy.
MysticMarbles@reddit
You should see a new Subaru at 50,000 miles, even with 3000 mile changes.
Crazy that walnut blasting is a requirement these days.
leftfootbraker@reddit
I blasted at 15k miles and had the most insane build up. The new VB has "an improved system" but it still sucks.
MysticMarbles@reddit
Yeah. I'm only at 10k but I'll DIY probably around 50 or so.
Very curious to see a truely well maintained, well driven, top tier fueled and quality oil/short interval'd vehicles condition at that time. I'm sure it'll look like horrible but I have hope.
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
That is crazy
It's all but gone in the euro world Occasionally we get a VAG product that needs it, bit it's a handful of times per year now as compared to weekly
tnsipla@reddit
The exception is the Subaru BRZ/Toyota GR86 since Toyota gave Subaru a mean look, so the engine has both direct injection and port injection, like other Toyota direct injection engines, despite being a Subaru FA24
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
GM solved it back in 2016, FWIW.
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
The M276/M278 starting in 2010 sorted this, probably a few other brands too. These engines never have carbon, and use a simple active oil separator on the back of the cam.
DFLDrew@reddit
How would changing oil do anything with valves?
Euphoric-Car5327@reddit
The oil becomes less and less effective at containing contaminants as it ages. Every combustion event releases unburnt hydrocarbons, moisture and other contaminants into the crankcase. It's the pcv's job to deal with these things.
The same reason the inside of a engine looks like trash when people exceed normal oil change intervals
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Gas isn't washing the valves clean. Also longer oil changes are leading to more deposits due to oil breakdown and shorter tripa make it harder to burn these off.
Walnut blasting isn't prevention, it's removal, but it's necessary periodically with DI cars. Did it in my 15 Honda Fit at around 140k miles (at 166,500 now). Felt like it picked up 10 HP (a lot on a car that only makes 130) and it gained 2 MPG across the board.
The Italian tune up is unironically good prevention. Give it some hard revs every so often and that will slow down the rate they form at. With 3rd gen Fits, I used to be a Honda tech. I saw customer cars with 30-35k with gummed up valves. Mine had the same buildup only after 100k more miles due to my more frequent and more spirited driving. Let it get up to temp and don't baby it.
Change your oil sooner and consider installing a catch can.
Fl4t3ric@reddit
Gas is also an solvent, so it does wash them clean, tona degree, eat least it helps to prevent buildup, combined with the cooling
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Port injected cars still have some buildup, but they will never have as much as a DI car
GlitteringPen3949@reddit
Good to know I have a catch can I’m installing on my daughters 19’ fit. It’s only go 25,000 miles on it. Hope it helps moving forward.
Critical-Magician421@reddit
It's recommended to use top tier fuel which has more detergents
dmv1985@reddit
EGR. back in the day, crankcases vented to atmosphere instead of being recirculated through the engine. the crankcase builds Pressure due to vaporization. that vaporization contains oil particles. This oily air enters the combustion chamber to burn a second time, the oil in the vapor burns, but its oil so it sticks to the pistons and cylinder walls. this is why you see "catch cans" on most aftermarket sites. it prevents the oil vapor from entering the intake bit does not just dump it into the environment.
PurpleSausage77@reddit
The good ones are direct and port now. I would tend to avoid strictly direct injection now.
Direct & port cars also have more tuning potential, the stock fuelling system of which can typically can handle more before having to be upgraded.
Decent-Experience-8@reddit
Corvettes and many other brands now have port injection in addition to direct injection to prevent carbon buildup.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Incomplete vaporization of liquid fuel. Because it burns before it has time to evaporate. The small atomized fuel droplets don't completely evaporate before they burn, resulting in the formation of solid carbon particles. With PFI, there is sufficient time for the droplets to completely evaporate. But not with GDI.
Excessive particulates from incomplete fuel vaporization has been a thing with diesels since diesels were a thing. And why modern "eco" diesels have DPFs.
GDI is just diesel technology adapted to gasoline engines.
Spring__Warrior@reddit
direct injection vs port injection
Katyw1008@reddit
I've had good success on my personal vehicles by running a atf seafoam cocktail thru a vacuum line every oil change. Chevy 1.4t and 1.5t both had over 180 k and minimal buildup.