Pilot’s Estate, UPS, Boeing, GE named as defendants in UPS 2976 Accident
Posted by EstateAlternative416@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 75 comments
Meet the man who decided to sue Captain Wartenberg’s Family following UPS 2976 Crash: Masten Childers
Inspired-User2026@reddit
That’s not surprising. Plaintiff attorneys will paint a broad stoke early on and drop defendants as the case progresses.
CCJockey381@reddit
But the pilot’s estate? That seems pretty shite even for a lawyer.
thejetssuckbigtime@reddit
It is but this is SOP in the USA when it comes to lawsuits.
BoringBob84@reddit
And they should punished for contempt when they file suits in bad faith. "Well, they might have been at fault, once the evidence was discovered" should not be justification for a lawsuit.
DissociatedOne@reddit
It’s incredible how many responses are just shrugging their shoulders at this kind of nonsense. The fact that lawyers are POS seems to be totally accepted and fine.
Ok-Parfait-9856@reddit
It’s common practice to name all defendants. I’m sure the pilot will be dropped by the plaintiff early on. Plus pilots union will defend them. I love seeing Redditors who don’t know how the world works get mad at every day stuff that doesn’t matter.
BoringBob84@reddit
I have talked to more than one litigator about this. They believe that their job is to represent the interests of their clients to the best of their ability, and they don't seem to care about the ethical ramifications of doing so. A defense attorney will plead innocence even if they are sure that their client is guilty. A litigator will sue deep pockets and argue their culpability, regardless of who is actually at fault.
I think that the "jackpot" incentive is far too strong. Most of awards are often in punitive damages - the bigger the financial size of the defendant, the bigger the award. This is why a plaintiff will sue Boeing and British Airways when a passenger trips over a suitcase, rather than the schlub who left the suitcase there.
I think that the solution would be to give the punitive damage awards to neutral third party companies, charitable organizations, or government agencies that will use the money to fix the problem, and not to the plaintiffs or their attorneys. They will already be fairly-compensated for legal fees and for all damages - tangible and intangible.
DissociatedOne@reddit
Well if a profession operates outside of moral and ethical boundaries then we as a society should be allowed to ask why we allow that to happen. It’s not a natural right or a god given right, we make the framework.
But to your point, the punitive damages should be used to improve the condition that caused the massive problem that led to a massive award. Of course a widow with kids should be provided for, but within reason.
timelessblur@reddit
They are legally and ethically required to do what is best for their clients.
DissociatedOne@reddit
I’m not arguing that. I’m saying it’s a fucked profession. We don’t need injury attorneys to have a vibrant functional society. It’s uniquely American to sue people for stuff and I’d love you hear how bother a dead pilots family makes anything better?
Watchguyraffle1@reddit
That’s the point of the comment. Laws and Ethics are constructs and should be questioned.
jobomotombo@reddit
Yup it's the norm in America. See it in healthcare all the time.
DissociatedOne@reddit
I’m in healthcare. It ruins people’s lives to get sued and they often settle just to make it end even when there wasn’t any real fault. Let the insurance company pay out so you don’t lose more sleep and work going to trial.
beeej517@reddit
Kentucky's statute of limitations for personal injury is very short (1 year). The investigation is still open. You can blame the tort reform crowd for shotgun pleading like this
BoringBob84@reddit
I agree. If there is a time limit, the clock shouldn't start until the final report is released.
DissociatedOne@reddit
It’s not “SOP”. That implies there is a good basis for it.
thejetssuckbigtime@reddit
Yes it is SOP. You sue everyone involved and things shake out in discovery
DissociatedOne@reddit
By shake out you mean the widow has to worry about if she will lose her house?
mustang__1@reddit
It is sop. It is dumb as fuck. Both can be true.
tronix80@reddit
From the plaintiff attorney’s perspective, it could be a serious malpractice issue if he didn’t sue the estate within the statute of limitations.
mustang__1@reddit
I'm not saying you're wrong. I know you're right. But holy shit, why put that stress on the family. Im sure ups and/or the union will step in and provide attorney support
KinkySFGreek@reddit
Plaintiffs attorneys have to name everyone. It is considered legal malpractice not to do so.
Thick_Visual_5999@reddit
Being shitty is SOP for lawyers. The shittier, the better. I’ve learned this is the finance field I am in.
Inspired-User2026@reddit
The same could be said for finance guys…
beeej517@reddit
To be fair, I looked it up and Kentucky has a VERY short statute of limitations for personal injury claims (1 year). If there's a chance the pilot shares some responsibility, it would be legal malpractice not to bring a claim against his estate now
atomicdragon136@reddit
While I don’t agree with it, it’s not uncommon for lawyers to name parties who may possibly be responsible in case evidence later found shows they may be liable and then drop them as more evidence shows that they aren’t liable.
Pretty sure it is in their employment contracts that the employer will indemnify employees in civil suits, so UPS should provide lawyers for the pilots’ estate and compensation.
KAugsburger@reddit
I could understand that decision if there was less clarity on the cause of the crash but it has been pretty clear that this was due to mechanical issues for quite awhile. I am not really clear on how any pilot regardless of skill could have changed the outcome. This story is a couple weeks old so I am not really clear if there is still any case that names the pilot's estate as a defendant but I would be surprised if any attorney thought that they had any realistic chance of winning money from the pilot's estate at this point.
84Cressida@reddit
The only thing we don’t know is why the plane couldn’t maintain lift. The FDr recordings show the #2 engine only had minor thrust loss so theoretically should’ve been able to have enough power to fly out of it.
My guess is the wing on fire caused it to lose lift and other systems were knocked out
21MPH21@reddit
Gtfo with that BS. There was absolutely nothing they could do to make that plane fly.
CannedDeath@reddit
We all know there's probably nothing the pilots could have done. But we need to know why it failed to climb because that would help with future efforts to prevent future engine detachments from causing unsuriviable accidents. And it would help uncover whether there's another design flaw in the MD-11 that needs to be corrected.
84Cressida@reddit
I didn’t say there was?
21MPH21@reddit
Yeah, you did. You said
Did you watch the friggin videos?
And, then you said
What TAF? Yes the explosion caused it to lose lift.
There was no way to fly that jet.
I'm guessing you think Sully could have {sigh}
84Cressida@reddit
You’re completely botching what I was saying and being a tool about it. I said we don’t know why the plane couldn’t maintain altitude with 2/3 engines still functioning fine for the most part. I never blamed the pilots at all and even said in another post on this thread it’s a mechanical issue.
KehreAzerith@reddit
With all the data that came out, including the accidentally leaked information, it was apparently that all three engines had failed, even just one working isn't enough to fly in those conditions. Also given that the left wing was damaged from the engine getting yanked off, it could have reduced the amount of effective lift that the wing could produce.
CannedDeath@reddit
> all three engines had failed
This doesn't make sense with respect to the FDR data. The #3 engine looked totally normal until the impact with the ground. The #2 engine had some loss of power. It briefly fell from around 118% N1 to 108%, then from around 108% to 98%. That isn't good, but it doesn't suggest a complete failire. However, the investigation hasn't published any analysis so far of how that affected performance.
Technically, all three engines did fail once they crashed into the ground.
Weak_Tangerine_6316@reddit
Plane was near max take off weight. Numbers are calculated so the plane can climb with 1 engine out, but barely. Take 1 engine out and reduce thrust on another and now the plane can’t climb.
Quit talking out of turn.
Inspired-User2026@reddit
I do defense work, so I’m not advocating this position at all, but the facts are not all known at this point. Yes it seems obvious, but other facts can come out that make the aircrew partially liable (I.e. witnesses report a proper preflight wasn’t conducted). So like I said, plaintiff attorneys will paint a broad stoke in naming defendants and drop them as more facts are determined.
Ziegler517@reddit
That is available at this time. The CVR has minutes of discussions about their “out” options and checklist completion. I fully understand your point and argument and am not arguing against you. But, from what we know (this is where I think your comment comes from, we don’t know it all), they were extremely tight and by the book on how they operated.
Inspired-User2026@reddit
Sorry should’ve made that an e.g. instead of i.g.
I’m not saying that is the case.
But as others have pointed out apparently KY has a short SOL. So unfortunately that requires anyone that has any potential liability be named. It’s very unfortunate for the family.
Dr---Beeper@reddit
Completely normal.
This is not news.
DissociatedOne@reddit
It might be normal, but it doesn’t mean that lawyers aren’t scumbags. The guy is dead, they don’t have to traumatize his family because that’s exactly how it comes across. Even if he might be exonerated, that’s completely unnecessary. If it’s obvious on the final Ntsb report you fast then they can add it.
upliftinglitter@reddit
Exactly. They didn’t need to name the poor pilot. It makes me unsympathetic to the victim’s family, which is a shame
timelessblur@reddit
They do it as otherwise boeing and ups will turn around and blame the pilots as their defense and first thing ask of the ones suing is why didn't you include the pilots. Saying because it is wrong to not infect more suffering on their family is not a legal argument.
Competitive-Fee6160@reddit
ntsb reports aren’t admissible in court and aren’t considered in legal proceedings.
Dr---Beeper@reddit
It's still normal sop in a situation like this.
There's a case that happened in Troy Michigan, where a car porter, kill the employee of the shop, because they didn't know how to drive a stick, and the victim's family had to sue the driver's family, because due to the law, the dealership was blameless.
Happens everyday, all the time.
FeloniousCapers@reddit
Buddy of mine was killed at 16 driving his younger brother around. The younger brother’s estate sued the older brother’s estate to settle insurance claims for their parents. Also, I am attorney. It’s weird and gruesome to a degree but this is how the liability and insurance industry works.
Dr---Beeper@reddit
https://aautomotives.com/jeep-owner-sued-after-employee-dies-during-oil-change/
gnartato@reddit
May not be news; but doesn't mean we shouldn't call out this shitty practice in attempt to stain the reputation of all those involved.
Dr---Beeper@reddit
Most certainly, you need to call around and tell all your friends. That'll fix the problem. :)
EstateAlternative416@reddit (OP)
No, it is not normal in the case of this accident. It’s a mechanical failure with no possible warning to the pilots prior to taking command. The investigation isn’t over, nor do the plaintiffs have access to any information to the contrary.
It’s a shameless “catch all” defendant listing devoid of nuance and compassion.
Dr---Beeper@reddit
Exactly, completely normal.
EstateAlternative416@reddit (OP)
This is a pathetically nihilistic take. Just because something is routine doesn't mean it’s devoid of morality of ethics. Nor does it mean people should accept it and dismiss someone’s attempt to bring light to such behavior.
Dr---Beeper@reddit
https://aautomotives.com/jeep-owner-sued-after-employee-dies-during-oil-change/
Dr---Beeper@reddit
It's a fact, that's how the world works, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's pathetically nolhistic, whatever that means. :)
ExecutivePhoenix@reddit
Another shit ambulance chaser.
N205FR@reddit
Boeing: probably a case there, they were the ones that determined this wasn’t a “safety of flight” issue.
GE: Wasn’t the CF6 that failed, but the pylon.
UPS: Didn’t do this specific inspection like FedEx but again because Boeing determined not mandatory.
Pilots: OUT OF ALL THE CASES OF NON-PILOT ERROR IN HISTORY, THIS IS THE MOST NON-PILOT ERROR THAT HAS EVER NON-PILOT ERRORED! Ffs they were past V2 when the bell sounded!
84Cressida@reddit
It’s shitty. And basically hedging their bets. KY law only allows you to file within 1 year. It’s likely any suit against the pilots will be dismissed as this is a mechanical failure and there was nothing they could do.
Sleep_adict@reddit
I mean it’s standard to name everyone involved and then let them point fingers. I was named in a lawsuit for a car accident when I was one of 4 people hit by a drunk driver, so my insurance lawyers just sent a motion that the drunk driver was at fault
Spiritual-Physics700@reddit
Going after the pilots estate? Mine as well monastery every mechanic who touched that plane also
mendenlol@reddit
Hmmm. Did they see the footage?
Do they think pilots are wizards?
This bothers me.
qalpi@reddit
Completely normal for a lawsuit like this
Apart_Olive_3539@reddit
That’s the problem, this is considered normal. But the reality of is that it’s a scumbag move that’s lower than whale shit.
timelessblur@reddit
Pretty standard that you sue everyone when filing then let the courts sort it out. You do that to remove the defense of pointing the finger at some one not involved
Dr_Peter_Venkman_@reddit
Typical bullshit dragnet tactic by lawyers. Pilots have indemnity clauses under union contracts.
DestroyAllXLBullies@reddit
OP clearly doesn't understand how lawsuits work.
us1549@reddit
In hindsight, since the engine 1 alarm went off right as they called v1, I wonder if they could have stopped in time.
Hindsight is 20/20 though
Pilots are allowed to stop after v1 if they believe the aircraft is not fit to fly
Gluecksritter90@reddit
They lost the engine on rotation. Rotation is by definition after v1. And they had no idea that they PHYSICALLY lost their engine.
And yes, with hindsight in all crashes where the aircraft crashes shortly after take off it obviously would have been better to abort the takeoff. v1 is just a bet on probabilities that taking off is the better bet, not some magical number.
Device_whisperer@reddit
Par for the course. A pilot got drunk and flew into a radio tower in Florida. His family sued the maker of the engine's carburetor.
KJ3040@reddit
Many pilot contracts have a clause requiring the airline to indemnify and defend pilots in incidents / accidents.
osaggys@reddit
I would think the union also covers that?
us1549@reddit
Normal procedure - sue everybody and go from there
TaskForceCausality@reddit
Bad enough to die in the plane crash. Apparently that’s not enough penance for being unlucky.
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