How do you talk to your EM about job security anxiety affecting your performance?
Posted by The_Spiky_Platypus@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 58 comments
Some ctx:
I am a backend dev who is a bit newer to the backend discipline (7 YOE as a dev, 2 YOE in Backend). I work for a Series A Fintech startup and have been here for my whole 2yrs as a BE dev. My title is Intermediate Developer.
My first 1.5yrs, I was on Team X building out product ABC. Team X dissolved and I was the lone BE eng who was merged into another team, Team Y, and product ABC came with me. I know product ABC relatively well, but certainly not a master of all the details.
(Note: Product ABC is a necessary internal product that was built out majorly for a year, and now is a bit lower prio since we have built out most of the key features - occasional bug fixes and support are necessary)
On team Y, we work on product DEF, another internal tool that is mission critical to our business, so naturally has high visibility. The team is led by a pretty chill and knowledgable EM, and we have 2 seniors who have been on the team for 3 yrs, and 2 new seniors we hired 1 month ago.
One other thing is product DEF is WILDLY complicated. 1 of the existing seniors is the DEF master, the other is almost as knowledgable.. other than that, no one at the company really understands this product. It is a mega silo problem, and the 2 existing devs are fully aware of the job security they have because of it.
On to my problem:
As a series A startup, we fire people pretty regularly. Even if they are working hard with high visibility, some people might decide they don't have enough core impact and they are let go with 0 notice.
This has really been stressing me out lately because I am on a new team with a complex product and 2 engineers who really dont want to offer support on learning the product. These 2 tenured engineers can work on solutions 100x faster than me in this space, and competing for tickets against them is impossible. On top of that, I have product ABC to maintain, and I feel that no one else on my team really wants to learn it (understandably so, its not very high prio to learn).
I am starting to build the anxiety that I will be let go randomly and make my small ownership of product ABC someone elses problem. Is there any way I can approach this constructively to me EM? If I approach a problem too generally with my EM, he will give extremely vague advice. Even when I told him I was feeling confused about priorities for our team and what to try to focus on, he said "at this company, the focus is doing the right thing. Whatever is most urgent and important" .. but I cant really compete for tickets with 2 engineers that have been doing this for 3yrs
Anyone been in a similar situation?
hachface@reddit
you have to project confidence 100% of the time. your boss is not your therapist and definitely not your friend. keep a lid on it.
people get fired or laid off all the time for no good reason. capitalism is an inhuman system without compassion. find fulfillment in life outside your career.
headinthesky@reddit
As a manager, this makes me sad. I would absolutely be trying to help with this, and I have for past engineers.
ButterflySammy@reddit
You're a zebra in a horse's world I'm afraid.
Juvenall@reddit
Fellow manager with the same gut reaction. If you have a good manager, they should be able to create a safe space where you can discuss those concerns because, frankly, that sort of anxiety will impact overall performance. It's not therapy, it's pragmatic.
The sad reality is that most managers are just shitty at the job and got into the role for all the wrong reasons and few of the core skills needed to be good at it.
poetworrier@reddit
Couldn’t agree more. Don’t discuss with coworkers either. It makes you a target. Everyone’s thinking the same shit.
SansSariph@reddit
Y'all have toxic work environments
Research shows that psychological safety leads to better business outcomes and unless the org is run by a narcissist it takes individuals modeling courage to shift the status quo
poetworrier@reddit
Not every organization wants to change
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
We must live in different realities.
In order to get fired as a white collar professional you have to wildly mess up or not be able to execute on basic things like showing up on time. Or sober.
The past 10 years the only people I have seen fired are those with substance abuse problems. One guy thought smoking a joint outside the office at noon was acceptable. Hint: it's not.
ClydePossumfoot@reddit
What? I worked in downtown San Francisco for over a decade at numerous companies, including a unicorn, and so many people smoked a joint outside the office in the communal smoking area every single day after lunch.
We had a whole ass club.
Your experience certainly does not speak for everyone (neither does mine), but lmao at thinking folks are generally getting fired for smoking doobies in tech.
tommyTurds@reddit
This is very area dependent. It’s pretty acceptable on the west coast. No one would even think twice.
If you were to do that outside the same megatech’s office in Dallas or Austin, the view will be a lot different. It might not get you fired, but it would be something people notice and not in a good way
It’s kind of the same with alcohol too. And even just the time you get to work. People showing up at 11am is pretty normal in the bay. When i was in Austin, 9am was late enough for people to notice and comment.
Just very different office cultures in different places
ClydePossumfoot@reddit
I work monthly in Austin and I promise it’s normal here as well, definitely not as prevalent as the Bay Area though.
Can’t speak for Dallas though, but that definitely seems like it would check out for them lol. Too many Mercedes snobs lol
caffeinated_wizard@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
No_Barnacles@reddit
A new company I just joined LOVES to fire people. They seem to think it means that we have a "high bar" for who can cut it. What it really means is that if you're a favorite of management and someone you don't get on with or who threatens you because they're smart and capable comes along, you can just tell your manager and they'll get fired... sometimes within their first 90 days.
It's a huge waste of recruitment resources, and it makes everyone tense and terrified. I'd also argue that people who are truly talented leave faster, because who wants to stick around and get randomly fired on a Tuesday?
Work should not feel like the Thunderdome.
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
Some of you seem to work in absolutely awful places.
I've stuck with old, slow moving corporations for the majority of my career. Maybe I haven't seen this hell scape because I have avoided startups or any sort of over hyped company or industry at all costs.
I work in the US and I just haven't seen this sort of fast fire environment.
hachface@reddit
you’re out of touch or extremely lucky. or maybe European.
we are, in this moment, going through a massive waves of layoffs across the whole sector. most were laid off through no fault of their own.
even in the boom times certain big companies were notorious for stack-ranking. they laid off 1 in 20 people deliberately every year for being judged lowest performers on their teams. not even objectively low-performing, just relatively low-performing.
i work for a much smaller company with a tiny engineering team yet i’ve seen people get let go for performance reasons every year.
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
Being laid off is not the same thing as being fired.
I've been laid off. It happens. It's not the end of the world.
hachface@reddit
so you totally concede to my point then? i mentioned layoffs in my very first post. and the question of whether being let go is the end of the world or not is a completely different topic.
you sound like someone who, when faced with the undeniable unfairness and misfortune inherent to life, needs to construct some story to explain it away.
karmiccloud@reddit
People don't get laid off for performance. They get laid off more often than not randomly, or if there is a system to it it is not with their manager's direct input.
Source: manager in big tech
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
No, when faced with unfairness and misfortune you overcome it.
Life at its core is unfair. Nothing will change that. Expecting fairness is a fools errand and utterly pointless.
GfxJG@reddit
Dude, in the US most people can get fired just because your boss happens to be in a bad mood that day - Or just for no reason at all. That applies to blue- and white-collar workers alike.
Most US workers don't have contracts and protections like we do in Europe, for example.
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
I have literally never seen this.
Firing someone is actually quite difficult.
GfxJG@reddit
If you think firing someone is difficult, that's because the primary reasons you have for firing people are the few protections you guys have: Sexuality, religion, race, gender...
So good job telling on yourself buddy.
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
If you work in any sort of large corporations it is actually quite difficult for your manager to fire you.
HR has processes and procedures for these things and it takes quite a bit of effort to go through them.
jawohlmeinherr@reddit
I don't think you've experienced how weaponized performance management works in big tech.
Some examples I've seen.
Team A gets reorganized into Team B under their manager. The manager manages out members of team A and adds them to layoff list to protect core team B.
And firing is quite easy, at a startup you can just tell them to pack up their things and leave. Leave a small severance so they don't sue, or take your chances without one.
Exodus100@reddit
Sounds like you are heavily extrapolating your experiences out into your predictions for how all workplaces are.
Why would a startup that is concerned with margins, speed, etc. have such an incredibly low bar for retaining employees? It would be suicide to have such a heuristic.
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
I don't work at startups for a reason.
reddit-ate-my-face@reddit
I don't want country or reality you live in but in the US engineers are being laid off left and right as everyone down sizes their workforce.
We literally laid off one of our best engineers last year because he often went against the grain fighting for the best solution not the easiest/fastest one.
Which is funny because I'm a mediocre engineer who smokes weed at work all day and I've survived the last 3 layoff cycles at my various employers.
hachface@reddit
the tall grass gets cut. the reward for good work is more work.
SarmackaOpowiesc@reddit
Being laid off is not the same thing as fired.
bluetista1988@reddit
The sad thing about performance anxiety is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're stressed about your performance, and that stress negatively impacts your work in several ways. It stifles your creativity and problem-solving, causes you to doubt your solutions, has you triple-checking things, or causes you to take more breaks because you're too stressed to focus on the work you need to do. This in turn creates the dip in performance that your anxiety is rooted in to begin with.
Think about it this way: if they fire you, they have to go through the expensive process of hiring someone new, who they would have to onboard, carry through probation, and onboard. They'd also be missing that two years of knowledge you have about their systems, and there's no guarantee they'd be as capable as you already are.
My advice is to simply ask your manager where you stand and see if they have tangible suggestions on what you could be doing better or differently. Don't frame it as being worried about your performance or anxiety about being fired. Instead, frame it as genuine curiousity about your current performance and interest in becoming more effective.
SansSariph@reddit
Great comment and exactly why a good leader should be interested in the emotional state of their reports, because it hurts performance and it spreads.
Love the idea of turning it into action. Ruminating is never helpful.
Sensitive-Ear-3896@reddit
Tell him "Lie to me to make me feel better" because that is what you will get
SansSariph@reddit
Acknowledging reality and confirming someone's not crazy for feeling that way can help ground and regulate anxiety
When every signal is saying things are bad, the white lies end up feeling like gaslighting and amp up anxiety and sabotage trust
People often just want to feel heard and acknowledged
fal3ur3@reddit
Startups aren't for everyone. You succeed at a startup largely on independence, autonomy, and translating the strategy into work you deliver.
Don't take this the wrong way, your post reads like someone who wouldn't do well at a startup. And that's fine, vast majority of engineers I've worked with wouldn't do well either. They are great engineers. The job is just different.
MorgulKnifeFight@reddit
Excellent advice.
27YOE here, currently in FAANG but spent many years in startups. In a startup - the goal is to make shit happen. Fast delivery, independent hustle, etc.
Like this post says it’s not for everyone - I can say without hesitation that it’s not for me anymore either.
For me the dealbreaker isn’t the pace of work: I still deliver at startup-pace: but I got tired of working for arrogant and inexperienced leaders who were drinking their own koolaid (undoubtedly supplied by VCs)
Key-Alternative5387@reddit
This isn't typical behavior for startups. Even in the very early stage.
seyerkram@reddit
Agree with this one. I used to think I was adaptable enough for a startup having worked previously in small companies and knowing that I can deliver things fast.
But man, it was totally different when I moved to a real startup -- where the goal is to survive until the next funding. It's a dog eat dog world. Everyone expects you to be 100% all the time and if you lose confidence for a bit (especially during perf review time), you're gonna be on PIP the next morning. Top it off with being on a work visa and it's a recipe for disaster.
I moved on from that company but that's where I learned I'm not cut out to for a startup. Maybe only when I'm the founder and have some control over things
Wooden-Glove-2384@reddit
absolutely not
you gotta plot out what the company wants by learning the typical reasons someone gets laid off and avoiding those like the plague
lenswipe@reddit
the VP needs a new yacht
Wooden-Glove-2384@reddit
if that's the case then get close to the VP
TheTimeDictator@reddit
Also learn yacht building.
suprjaybrd@reddit
at 7 YOE, u better get to senior very soon. otherwise at risk of up or out. no one hires a candidate expecting them to stay at mid.
mothzilla@reddit
Fix your anxiety by building a war chest/rainy day fund, so that you have a financial cushion if you do get fired.
I wouldn't discuss this with your EM. They're likely to interpret it as "I'm looking around" or "I can't handle the pressure". (Regardless of whether that's right) When they get told to chop a few heads they'll remember the conversations.
MoreHuman_ThanHuman@reddit
at a startup? you don't, you're not going to get the type of reassurance you desire and your EM knows that, that's not the type of relationship you have with them.
the answer to chronic job insecurity is making yourself irreplaceable
SrDevMX@reddit
Absorb all the knowledge by all means from the 2 seniors, they have the initial advantage that they have been doing many cycles inside the DEF product.
In this situation, the best way to absorb knowledge is to suck it up from them rather than reading code, which is very slow.
Other way, that has worked for me, is to use an LLM to make an analysis and critique of the architecture of the project, first describe in a very detailed way what this piece of software is supposed to be and solve, what are the major goals in performance, traffic, etc who are the competitors, so it has way to know who to compare it with, and then learn from that LLM critique, internalize it, and once that you know it ok, mention some of the shortcomings of the product, like: “the way how this particular piece is over complicated or fragile, if there is an opportunity I would like to improve it in this way that I have been thinking”, of course start the easiest thing to refactor.
Looks WiLDLY complicated because you are new to the problem space, the code, the database but eventually a competent developer in a short amount of time starts to find his way around it. If the 2 seniors know it, you will know it, is a matter time and effort, I believe you will do it.
Tyhgujgt@reddit
I think most people are afraid of uncertainty more than losing their job. I'd ask your manager for an honest evaluation and clear information about your chances.
As a manager I personally invest a lot of resources into psychological safety for my team. The fear is the number one performance destroyer. It doesnt mean I can guarantee you won't be laid off or fired, but I can give you as much as information about the company situation, your performance from both my view and leadership at large, and actionable insights what to do if you are unhappy. (On the down low I would recommend looking for another job if I think the company or your position in it is cooked.)
startupwith_jonathan@reddit
Bro is competing with the silo kings
Which-World-6533@reddit
Only in the US would this be a company practice.
Good luck having any team morale.
And you wonder why there's "job security anxiety".
ThlintoRatscar@reddit
Fintech isn't like other engineering shops. It's ruthless at getting stuff done and takes people who thrive under pressure and conflict.
To reassure you a little, there's a reason why they kept you and it's to deal with ABC. So long as ABC is important, so are you.
ABC is therefor your current top priority.
DEF is because you can deliver stuff that isn't ABC because ABC is mostly on auto-pilot.
So, you are backup for DEF. You shouldn't be competing with the others but rather complementing them wherever you can. Remember - your unique value is ABC and DEF is your secondary value.
Your manager doesn't sound like the nurturing type, so speak to them about the wider organisational politics, the vision for DEF and ABC, and how your colleagues are doing from the Manager's perspective. Then, figure out how to make your manager's job easier without sucking up.
Also... in that environment get comfortable with randomly losing your job. The anxiety is a problem and your manager isn't really a solution to your difficulty regulating your own emotions.
As others have said, save your money and use your benefits to talk to a therapist.
Is that helpful?
eloel-@reddit
I've had EMs where I would never even consider talking about my anxieties. I did not stay long in those roles.
I've had EMs where I shared everything. They knew and appreciated that I could perform well, and understood that their job was to ensure I could perform at the level I can. I could talk them about specific projects I did not like, about people I did not want to work with, and yes, anxiety about job security.
Reasonable_Working47@reddit
I wouldn't tell your EM about your emotional state.
I would however negotiate with your EM to be given higher visibility work for your career, even when normally a more senior dev could do it faster and quicker. The EM role is partly about coaching people to take on more work.
I actually think your anxiety is founded on something real. You're not that critical yet to the business, and you want to increase your value.
Alfanse@reddit
i like your answer. as an EM knowing people want more is important.
i try to put people on small bugs to begin with, it seems like minor work, but i expect a curious dev to read the code, build mental models of how it works, how its tested, and how its deployed and run in production. Learn until you are the master.
FYI if you have a well tested system, reading the regression tests can often shed light, if they dont exist, offer to write one.
Windyvale@reddit
Job security is building the skills and networks to have other opportunities.
aknosis@reddit
In today's market this kind of honesty might put an easy target on you. I would not suggest this unless you already have been interviewing and are making progress on that front.
I can offer it advice from two angles.
Doing what is urgent and important is likely ideal, you may bounce around on the type of tasks that you do but it'll make you more well-rounded and with a larger breadth of knowledge you may be more valuable from a manager's perspective of being able to switch between teams/projects.
Try avoiding comparing yourself to others, instead, focus on where you might have skill gaps so you can work on professional development. In my opinion, people who do not continuously learn end up stagnating quite heavily.
FrenchCanadaIsWorst@reddit
Get a ticket on a core piece and make it as obfuscated as possible as a stop gap, then after merging that set up an AI PR grading pipeline that auto emails to the it department with a letter grade and breakdown of a persons PR and their code quality, security risk introduced, etc. Make sure it highlights extensibility and how their choices will promote or inhibit future growth. It needs to be completely automated and hands off so it has the perception of being objective. This will make them dislike you but that’s fine because they are already making life difficult for you to save their own skin. Make sure there is an ongoing cumulative code quality leaderboard, and since you control the metric you should be near the top (but not quite #1 because that’s too obvious). Then use this edge to start getting more PRs in
greensodacan@reddit
Reframe this as trying to align with company goals, and then visibly working toward them. Not only will that make them reluctant to let you go, it might get you promoted.
Job security is a myth. Even in good times, people get laid off for reasons entirely outside of their control. I once worked for a startup where the CEO claimed we had met our yearly projections in September only to let everyone go in November. You just have to roll with this kind of thing.
On your end though, you can take steps to ensure you land on your feet. Keep careful track of your finances, know your burn rate, have a "fuck you fund", keep your resume up to date, and always have your ear to the ground for new opportunities. You can also start additional income streams like investing.
fixermark@reddit
There are two answers to that question, neither of them will really be something your manager can help you with completely.
Number one: sounds like you could use reinsurance that your project is poor enough that it won't get dropped. But your manager is heavily incentivized to believe that, because their job is also on the line, so if you ask them they're going to tell you yes. Now while telling you yes, they might tell you specific things about the project that you can evaluate using more objective means to reinforce your belief that you're on the right project. But as a primary source of data, your manager should probably be considered unreliable on the importance of the project they're in charge of.
Number two, you're at a fintech startup. Have an exit plan. More than half of startups fail, and it is entirely possible to do everything right and come out the other side of this exercise with nothing to show for it but an awful lot experience of multiple layers of a complicated architecture (valuable)... And some junk stock units in a company that failed (or shares if the acquiring company maybe). If that failure mode is too rich for your blood, there are a lot of lower stress software engine jobs that pay well; I worked at a startup right out of college and wouldn't trade those years for anything but ultimately switched to a more stable company because my stomach lining was no longer taking the pressure.
shadytradesman@reddit
Have you tried putting together an architecture talk / diagram / docs to explain the product? Put time on the other engineers' calendars so they can knowledge dump, and come prepared with specific questions. Figure out how the major components are laid out, how it's deployed, what each thing is responsible for, etc.
Not only will this build your understanding of the product, it will create documentation that will make it easier to onboard new devs in the future. If your colleagues stonewall you, you can bring it up with the EM.
I would also figure out how to set boundaries with ABC. If there are other internal resources on it, figure out a handoff plan. Ensure leadership understands what percentage of your time you're able to dedicate to supporting ABC and get buy-in from leadership. If someone demands more of your time on ABC or DEF, get approval from leadership so that they have to engage in horse trading.