Do you consider your country to be poor?
Posted by Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 101 comments
Posted by Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 101 comments
crivycouriac@reddit
Unironically yes
Almost half of the population is rural and we are not able to build any major projects
No_Database_7462@reddit
I've always thought you guys are doing good, from the tourism alone and whatnot, I must be wrong then, how bad is the brain drain in Slovenia?
PlantLady187@reddit
Slovenia is doing well but were just a complaining nation as you can see. Brain drain is minimal compared to the rest if the balkans because life here is not that bad. Sure were not Swiss but deff not poor. Also i think we have this idea that if were not the best were not good enough.
crivycouriac@reddit
People are actually too lazy to emigrate
PlantLady187@reddit
Travel a bit and youll see that were doing quite well, were just champions of complaining.
Massive_Emu6682@reddit
Tbf major projects are not equal to prosperity.
crivycouriac@reddit
It’s just that the country is really going nowhere. There is a mental cap that people have which prevents Slovenia from being exceptional in any field sans sports and in the past 30 years it went from being by far the richest post-communist state to essentially being surpassed or close to surpassed by a whole horde of countries. Heck, even Starbucks opened in Laos and Georgia before it did in Slovenia
silentmarrow@reddit
Starbucks targets places with high foot traffic and strong spending potential, not how rich the country is
crivycouriac@reddit
That’s basically Ljubljana then
silentmarrow@reddit
nope, not really
a_bright_knight@reddit
are you serious? Ljubljana has INSANE number of tourists for its size
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Do you think having Starbucks and having people that want to pay 5e for shitty coffee is a good thing?
You are small country. You cannot be a super world power.
Massive_Emu6682@reddit
I mean the stagnation you describe is kinda a trend in whole Europe i believe. But i get it, others already did some stuff in the past and the moment you guys felt that you have the same chance, it just feels like dissapeared. We are kinda in the same situation but worse. It feels like we go backwards fast. Even while we built some "major" stuff. A country that getting old without even become a rich nation lol.
crivycouriac@reddit
Then there’s Moldova which doesn’t even become old because everyone dies off first
Massive_Emu6682@reddit
LubedCompression@reddit
I just looked into it and I found that Slovenia has the exact opposite problem of many West-European nations.
silentmarrow@reddit
omg be grateful
crivycouriac@reddit
Of what?
Zealousideal_Low9994@reddit
silentmarrow@reddit
who’s this guy
Zealousideal_Low9994@reddit
Republika Srpska, they needed an extra flag
crivycouriac@reddit
They have Elon Musk at the very least
Once Elon Musk dies, Srpska will become one of the world’s top economies if I’m not mistaken
silentmarrow@reddit
why do they need a flag??
crivycouriac@reddit
Tbh, I believe that this sugarcoating of Slovenia could only really apply for Yugoslavia
FuckTheCake@reddit
Rather a very comfortable rich country
Lysergial@reddit
Latvia is interesting since it's the richest of the 3 Baltics...
a_bright_knight@reddit
it's literally the poorest of the 3 baltics
silentmarrow@reddit
yk what, i love the confidence 🥺🇦🇱
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
More delusional than confident. And with an average salary being one of the lowest if not the lowest in the Balkans. No shade, but Albania, girl
1250Rshi@reddit
Considering almost 95% if Albanians own their own property and the last couple of years those assets have skyrocketed, hell you we’re not feeling poor.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
So does most of the Balkans, this is not the US. Everything is inherited.
1250Rshi@reddit
So tell me, how are you poor when your house is worth 600K?
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
OMG, I see all proud Albaninas who live in the US have come here to defend the honor of their country. Cannot be bothered to live there, though!
Maybe some Albanian that actually lives in Albania will explain it you. I am out.
1250Rshi@reddit
The real question is why are you so salty? I personally feel fcking rich! I have properties in both Albania and US. Life is good when you actually work.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
I find it kind of funny, the way this map is, I am not salty about the map. I am, however, salty about your typical American arrogance. And I don't think the people of Albania, who work pretty hard, but don't have all the riches to match their work, would be super happy with how dettached and pompous you are.
1250Rshi@reddit
It’s not arrogance, it’s statistics, but I forgot that this is reddit. Let me teach you something about the US culture. Nobody hides their wealth here, it’s rooted from religion. Wealth technically is the fruit of your labour, “like i worked hard to be here”. On the other end, I get it, it is weird at first as in Europe we are always told that others don’t need to know how much $ you have.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Dude, you are in the wrong subreddit. The whole internet is American, this is the one corner you do not understand. Also what wealth? The house that the bank owns and if you miss a payment can be taken from you, even if you already paid for 90% of the house price + interest? The stuff you buy on your credit card with the money you do not have? The fact that you are probably one accident away from bankruptcy? If you get cancer, you will run out of sick leave days and get fired. You will spend all your retirement funds on treatment and basic necessities and then be left high and dry in your old age. Your country cannot take care of its citizens, because your money is funding Israel and the Gestapo (ICE) raping children in those concentration camps. I understand the US culture very well. No way in hell would I call you rich, ironically every Balkan country is better than USA.
The irony here is that people in the Balkans work a lot, but are still poor because of various factors. And that is what we are discussing here. You are so uninformed and so out of the left field here. You are diaspora, probably even born there, coming here to flaunt how rich you are. Distasteful.
cressida0x0@reddit
Nobody gives a shit about you specifically. Bro has a stinky ego and wants to cope by yelling that he's rich.
1250Rshi@reddit
You are commenting, so you must be.
a_bright_knight@reddit
600k what? You think an average home in Albania is worth 600 000 euros? Lmao
silentmarrow@reddit
the question was is the country rich or poor, not their citizens
inkblowout4@reddit
I'd like to add that Balkan property is chump change compared to where I live. When my parents immigrated to Canada back in 97 and my dad's parents were in a small town in Bosnia looking for a home around that time. They asked my dad and my uncle to wire them $10K CAD each which was the price for their house.
Like 20k for a small house is actually insane lmao, granted the country's economy was in the shitter (because of war and all) but a house that my grandparents paid for would easily be 900k+ here in Toronto.
There is a saying here in Canada that people who end up owning a house usually end up being "house-poor." yes they have a house but they are financially poor. My grandparents were definitely not rich because they owned property and we didn't. We were much better off than them fianically speaking.
ManVSReddit@reddit
If the official average salary was realistic people would be doing g battles on the streets.
It’s the cash economy that really carries everyone , and the real average salary is likely 30-50% higher than what’s reported. Probably even more, a lot of laundering is going on there and it’s impossible to realize the magnitude of that economy.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Ok and how can you say all this and still think you live in the same economy as Denmark that is also colored red? You are not doing better than Greece, be fr.
Lanky_Commercial9731@reddit
The question is "do you consider your country to be poor?" It's not "Are you a rich country?" It's quite a difference, Balkan countries are not poor if you compare with the global average, they are around the middle. Also countries like Denmark are at the very top, they are outliers.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
And yet people rearly compare it with the global average, because when each Balkan country talks about its darkest days of poverty, those days are still not poor on a global scale.
ManVSReddit@reddit
Who said any of that? The question was “do you think you are poor”. If Denmark and Greece answered yes, that’s because they are delusional. The fault lies with them, not us. We answered correctly. Anyone in Europe answering “Yes” to that question is factually and statistically wrong.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Dude.... do you even live in Albania?
ManVSReddit@reddit
50% of the year. What does that even have to do with anything? Statistics don’t give two fucks where you live. Poverty is very measurable, do you understand how stats work? You don’t have to live anywhere to measure it. You don’t live in Greece or Denmark either, yet here you are making comments on their behalf .
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Bold of you to make that assumption. Denmark said it is not poor and it is not. Greece said it is poor and it is. Albania said it is not poor and it is.
I'm guessing 50% of the year is summer vacation, cause you live and work abroad, precisely because Albania is poor.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
Does my neighborhood become poorer if a billionaire buys a house next door? Is there an objective definition of poverty?
Beyond “can’t afford food and housing” — which Albania is doing just fine on — all definitions of poverty are subjective and ever changing.
Compared with 10,20,30,40,50 years ago Albania is rich beyond measure.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Try comparing a rich stable country in Europe with an opposite country in Europe. Look at all the variables and then you tell me. I am sorry, but I do not feel like entering this silly debate with (I'm almost certain) an American that does not understand how fucked up USA is and tries to apply it's perception of being a good, stable, rich country onto others.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
You’re mostly making this debate into something unrelated my own point. All I’m saying is that if someone feels a certain way about their country maybe that’s because it makes sense from the it point of view, experience, what they consider important.
But now your comment has me wondering if there are any truly rich countries in the world because as you point out the US is a mess in many ways but is also the “richest” country in the world.. so I guess we’re down to like… Switzerland and Norway being the only rich countries or…? Because I can tell you almost every European country is struggling in many ways right now and bound to get far worse.
Maybe “rich country” never existed in the first place, and never will exist, except as a fantasy of the imagination.
ManVSReddit@reddit
Do you live in Denmark , Greece or any of the part of that map?
Current-Tough7084@reddit
plus majority of us dont pay our taxes, not a flex of course but those taxes arent going to us anyway. Every school street and buildint built was built on EU fonds
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
Idk if you count Moldova as Balkans, but once you count the fact that Albania has a very large unreported cash economy I don’t think effective wages are much lower than Macedonia or Bosnia.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
If you do not report and are avoiding taxes... news flash, you are not a stable rich country.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
That’s probably the most European take ever.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
Usually stable economy means that average person does not have to commit crime. So.... yeah, definitely poor.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
K
Substratas@reddit
https://i.redd.it/4aops78d563h1.gif
DuePositive8957@reddit
LMAO
Resigned1431@reddit
Russia thinks it's rich? Lol
a_bright_knight@reddit
no, they think they're not poor.
JumpApprehensive9949@reddit
Have you seen Russia gdp ppp?
Lanky_Commercial9731@reddit
What's with it? Lower than Romanias
JumpApprehensive9949@reddit
Not gdp per capital ppp. Gdp ppp
JovanREDDIT1@reddit
Damn I can’t wait to go to the third richest country in the world, India!!!
(tbf india is beautiful but definitely not rich lmao)
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
GDP per capita PPP is useless.
GDP PPP is even more useless
Lanky_Commercial9731@reddit
And what does that do? India is richer than the UK? Lmao
Macedonianboss@reddit
Belarus is more hilarious
P-l-Staker@reddit
Cheap land + relatively low cost of food and energy. Yeah, I wonder why...
Training-Birthday-42@reddit
portugal = balkan
Waste-Tap9295@reddit
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
1250Rshi@reddit
Send our Portuguese brothers a bottle of Rakia!
Puzzleheaded_Sort294@reddit
I mean, Im from turkey and my country isnt poor, our lands are rich and we did have many factories back in the day before getting shut down for some reason. Our PEOPLE however, are very very poor. Except the ones in politics, they are eating good.
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit (OP)
Turkey has enough ressources to get richer than Germany and Greece has enough ressources to get richer than the Netherlands.
Instead we emigrate to Germany and the Netherlands.
Go figure.
fortisqp@reddit
I think Greece is getting better and better becouse of the tourism impact, but it lacks in production of goods, when it comes to Turkey i think they got the same influx from tourism but also invested in production, however the leader of Turkey went from pro Europe, to glorifying ottoman rule(which for the majority of non mulsim population in the area is a strict No)
I think the main thing that we lack in this part of Europe is cooperation, and more focusing on economy instead of history and religion.
Albekvol@reddit
Honestly no. Bulgarian income levels are above the global average. I don’t care that this includes India, China and countries with huge populations with poor rural people, it’s a matter of fact. And these places also have really wealthy people too. Bulgaria is the poorest member state of the EU, but not with the lowest PPP, it’s better off than basically all of LATAM, all of Africa, the majority of Asia, a significant part of Oceania and standards are climbing at a ridiculous rate, especially post-COVID. The Balkans are gonna converge with Western Europe in the next 15 years and I am so happy for all of us going in that direction.
Particular-Run3031@reddit
And just imagine if we get rid of these filthy corrupted politicians..
We will be set.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Wealth is subjective. I would call Albania rich but I wouldn't call it poor too nowadays actually. Our problems are in different place, same as in all Balkans and Albania isn't no different.
manu20bcr@reddit
Country is very rich tbh
But people are not. Maybe over 20% of Turks live in Switzerland’s living standards. The rest is ☠️
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit (OP)
I once saw that the GDP per capita in Istanbul is over 50k USD.
David_Aaron_Finck@reddit
Definitely not.
Stverghame@reddit
Compared to most of the Europe? Yes
Compared to the world? No
As the world is vast, and "rich west" is only small part of it - I would consider ourselves well-off generally. Most Serbs ignore the world though and focus on Europe only.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Technically speaking Turkey aint poor but shitty politicians make it to be poor.
bagdf@reddit
Country isn't poor but the people are
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
This actually tracks with the attitude in this sub. I believe this lol.
euxenios-svartahaf@reddit
yes 🇹🇷🇹🇷
floare_salbatica@reddit
Not even the Balkans want you, buddy. The audacity! 😅
euxenios-svartahaf@reddit
you know? I don't really care. being poor, having land in Balkans and 40% of your ethnic Turkish population having Balkanian roots is enough for me, haha.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
I wonder how much of that 40% is due to the slave trade and how much is because of population exchange. It’s an even crazier number when you realize how many populations living in Anatolia for millennia were driven out over the last century.
To be fair it’s kind of the story of the whole belt from Estonia to the Caucasus: ethno-states where no ethnic priority existed before.
euxenios-svartahaf@reddit
it's not my fault, don't blame on me lol. I dont give single fuck about Ottomans. for them being a Turk meant being inferior. they colonized Anatolia, and Turkish-speaking peasants had to serve in military, work like a slave, yet most of their yearly grain would be taken for the Sultan's 40th prince's left ball care. Yes, we Turks are a result of ethnogenesis, biologically and genetically. Culturally we are a mixture of Byzantine, Anatolian, Balkanian, Caucausian, Levantine and Central Asian. Linguistically Central Asian. Well, that's like over. Even me, who has recent Balkanian ancestry, don't give a single shit about this lol. I'm not a Balkanian Slav, or an Albanian, or a Greek. I'm just a Turk, that's my identity. About peoples driven out from Anatolia? Yes, you're right. I live in Eastern Black Sea coasts, seeing no Greeks or Christians is pretty sad. But what can I do? I didn't do anything, neither any Turks living to this day.
You guys don't realize how peoples are being formed, you can see completely similar situations in Balkans, Russia and Scandinavia long before the Turks already, don't realize that all peoples are allready a mixture, a result of ethnogenesis, yet you guys say Turks are hybrid assimilated peoples but other's aren't? Come on. I was just commenting about an economic situation and how poor is my country that I can definitely call this a Balkanian situation, and you toxic people, have nothing more than nationalism come over and say, ''oh you're not european, you're not balkanian, you're hybrid, you're not a Turk'' these opinions don't matter man. Grow up. Love people as Christ said. I was born a Turk, my name is completely of Turkic origin, I speak Turkish. You may be a Romanian, your name may be in Latin, you may speak Romanian, a part of Romance Languages. Well I respect this and recognize you as a Romanian, and in the same situation you got to call me a Turk, not an assimilated guy who has slave ancestors, not only me but many Turks. My best wishes to you, may Lord bless you and be with you brother.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
It’s funny how I made an analogy between Turkey and Central Europe and you’re reacting as if I’m attacking you and denying European history.
It’s because you know the Turkish ethnicity is still a state project which takes continual ongoing state manipulation that you have such thin skinned reaction. You know that whatever your identity there are tens of millions less fully on board with it. Otherwise I agree with most of what you say.
I used to have a Turkish friend from the Black Sea region but her denialism was way too deep seated for me. We had other points of tension as well and have sense fallen out of touch, but it’s vastly easier to get Germans and Poles to talk about their history of mistreating each other than for Turks to admit that…
Well, you’re one of the rare ones to at least be open about it instead of immediately jumping to excuses and blame.
euxenios-svartahaf@reddit
Why you might be thinking that the Turkish identity is fictional is that Turkish identity developed later than many other European nationalities. Calling the Turkish identity a state project means Serbs, Croats, Ukrainians but especially Russian, Franks and Italians a state project as well. All of these nations, including Turks, united under a single umbrella with the help of philosophical ideas or political doctrines.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
What makes you think I have nothing to say about anyone else?
I think what I think because I’ve visited every country you mentioned (except Russia, though I’ve made extensive acquaintance with Russians…), studied their history, and have seen how people respond to it. Russians have huge blind spots and a very strong sense of superiority towards all their “assimilated” peoples by the way. What makes them different from Turks is that Turks are defensive about it where Russians aren’t even aware they have this mindset. But it also comes through strongly if you know how to interact with their “integrated” minorities, and then watch how they are treated.
But now you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth “no way is it a state project but also it’s always been a state project”. And that’s where you lose me.
euxenios-svartahaf@reddit
“no way is it a state project but also it’s always been a state project” what the hell. when did I say that?
euxenios-svartahaf@reddit
Lol. Turkish identity was never a state project. Ottomans adopted and spread Islam over Turkishness. Many Turks migrated to Balkans were already speaking Turkish, not any Native Anatolian language or Arabic. Between late 1800's and Balkan wars many of them were expelled to Anatolia, they faced the same situation after the Second World War.
About the Turkish identity, ''Turkish'' is not being Central Asian pastoralist or solely based on ethnicity. If it was based on ethnicity, Turks would have been separated like how Germany is today (Bavarian, Saxon etc.).
Turkish identity was started to be adopted by educated low-class in Constantinople by mid-late 1800's. Long before the Kemalist period. By the very early 1900's it was quickly adopted by many educated people in such Balkanian cities like Thessaloniki.
and then WWI came, it's not as simple as how I say, I know. Many Greeks and Armenians left the Anatolia or suffered from persecution, and Turks suffered from Armenian organizations in the East.
By the Turkish War of Independence, rural peasants still considered themselves as muslims rather than Turk. You can see this is in a novel book named ''Yaban''. During the war of Independence, some of Turkish-speaking peoples started to use the denonym Turk, as well as the Turkish-spekaing Karamanlides people in the Central Anatolia.
Post 1923 Kemalist revolutions made the identity widespread in the entire country. Turkish as an ethnicity and as a nationality were distinct and separated. For example, Greeks in Turkey, Kurds in the Southeast were ethnically non-Turkish but nationally Turkish. This comes from a civil nationalist idea, based on Ziya Gökalp's Turkist ideas (who was a Kurd in origin). After people started how to read and write, thanks to the latin alphabet and to be educated, they quickly adopted the identity of Turk, many of these people were ethnically Turkish already.
Post-WWII Turks directly adopted Turkness, for example, Communist Bulgaria. They were simply expelled out of their villages for being Turks, not muslims. When they arrived in Turkey, they were already recognized as Turks and recognized themselves in the same way.
Even today it isn't a state project, quite the opposite, Islamist in the head of the state are trying to embrace Islam over Turkness, trying to spread the idea of ''a Turk who is not a muslim is not a real Turk'' (or a western agent).
Finally, I'm gonna say my ideas. Turkish identity is not a real thing if a Turk denies their pre-Turkic Anatolian roots and Balkanian mixture. We have a great culture, original and also influenced by many other cultures, especially Eastern Roman Empire. A Turk is not defined by their religion, to me I am not a Christian, but I believe in Christianity, many Turks are atheists, many are alawites, many are sunni muslims, many are neo-Tengrists. Anyone who has this culture, the language, the denonym is ethnically Turk. Anyone who lives inside the Turkey, despite having a non-Turkish language, despite not being ethnically Turkish, they are welcomed, they are nationally a Turk, and they have the right to preserve their own ethnical identity and cultural elements and nobody can say anything against them.
AndrewithNumbers@reddit
As an American I wish for a world in which people can claim the full complex ancestry of their history as you say: a Turk freely accepting being all things Anatolian for instance. It’s such a richer heritage to say “my people were both the conquered and the conqueror, the ancient and the recent”.
I’ve encountered so many voices online and so much nationalist propaganda (Turkish and Azerbaijani are the worst at this, or anyway of what I’ve had exposure to, but there are others) that tries to do the opposite. “It was all empty when we got here” / “it was all self defense” / “we were here for all time AS this group”.
If you don’t recognize the role of state propaganda in shaping the Turkish identity it may be just because you’ve learned to tune it out, or take it for granted because it’s just what you know. Because I can feel it, and I know people who can speak to this fact. I’ve traveled to dozens of countries. Most don’t come off this way.
But I’ve also spoken to Turkish Armenians (the ones who managed to not be expelled) and Turkish Kurds and Persians and Syrians living in Turkey, Turks living abroad and in the country, watched how people “from the east” are sometimes given subtly different treatment, or how some don’t celebrate Republic Day because it was not a good period for them, the alphabet that doesn’t accommodate other significant national languages, not even knowing about neighboring countries, and I’ve talked to Turks who insist none of this is happening, and that they’re the only ones with legitimate grievances or just downplaying any experience any minority might go through, at once believing everything they were taught about national history, but also not believing anything ELSE the government tells them.
Rasputin_Offical@reddit
Delusional confidence had me rolling
Substratas@reddit
I have a feeling most Redditors seem to live a relatively ”comfortable” life (financially, not mentally) so this isn’t the right place to get the absolute truth.