I fly regularly in areas with paragliders, and once quite close to where this happened. Maybe 1 in every 5 is carrying a FLARM transponder which shows up on my foreflight, but the rest of the time i have to rely on seeing their canopy. luckily i usually fly quite a bit higher than them, and they tend to ride thermals along mountain ridges whereas i’m usually more in the middle (i’m not flying in super tight canyons, closer to the north side of where the alps start so canyons are quite wide). Still, I have had more than my fair share of encounters which make you wonder a bit. These guys really don’t give a fuck 🤣
look at my comment history if you want further evidence of how little people understand about airspace. they’re calling for the public execution of this pilot
I'm saying yeah we have trouble finding jets in the sky cause they're typically miles away. when they're 1000 above it's not hard to spot.
so the comparison that "we have a hard time seeing big airliners so obv it's hard to see a paraglider" doesn't really make sense when the paraglider is a few thousand feet away not miles. but anyway have a nice day
Particularly if you’re both at about the same altitude and you’re only seeing it from, in this case, the rear. A quick googling puts the average thickness of fully inflated paraglider wing at just 12-16 inches.
Doing the math on the average paraglider wing area (~270 sq ft) with that thickness, at a 1/4 nm away and 20’ higher the Cessna pilot would have had about 3.5 square feet of visible surface area to react to. I have carry-on bags larger than that.
I once got uncomfortably close with one. Probably under a mile, a few thousand feet away. Just ahead of my right wing at maybe 3,000 feet or so. I was really not happy that I hadn't noticed them until I was about even with them, pretty scary. Big "pay attention dumbass" moment for me.
This happened maybe a dozen miles north of KRUT - I know there's hang glider activity closer to Castleton but I was surprised to see them in the Rutland valley.
To my knowledge, practically no glider or PG in Class E in VMC makes any effort to stay off ILS path. A few gliders have transponders/ADSB-out, and those who don't have digital conspicuity may give Approach a position report when they're obviously on the extended centerline of a runway (in Class E). For example, near Camel's Hump on BTV rw 35's extended centerline. It is sometimes necessary to try to climb in that area before moving on. It's nice to have ADSB-out in that situation, because I know that ATC can see me. Likewise for airplanes landing on rw 35. I assume that airplanes don't visually see gliders.
The glider pilots that I fly with let BTV ATC know when gliders are above 5-6000 in mountain wave. We let them know how how we plan to go. Say FL100. ATC is good about steering power traffic away and they periodically broadcast a warning about mountain wave and gliders for VFR traffic.
I've seen PG near Sugarbush Ski Resort a few times, so maybe they also launch from the top of Killington Ski Resort.
It is 2026. The technology (ADSB out, and radios) exists to allow this type of traffic (paraglides, powered parachute, gliders) to separate themselves from powered aircraft.
You are taking your life in your hands when you choose to intermix with high speed traffic, for a fucking hobby. It is equivalent to taking a kick scooter onto the shoulder of a highway, except for some reason it isn’t illegal.
I'm decent at spotting planes when called to by tower, most of the time*, but that's when I'm forced to look. Haven't started XC yet. Do people constantly look out for things like this?
True enough but this video looks like the paraglider was moving almost directly away from the Cessna and would have been under its nose in a blind spot. No relative motion and mostly (or entirely) obscured is going to make avoidance a bit difficult.
Blind spots aside, the paraglider was roughly the same altitude so it’s not like you’re seeing the entirety of the wing. The pilot of the approaching Cessna would be seeing it on edge which is a much smaller target to see regardless of how colorful it is. At a distance of a nautical mile an object of that size is distinguishable but just barely. Pretty easy to miss as it goes within a minute from an unrecognizable dot in the distance blending with the terrain to a barely resolvable object as you close the distance. But by then the paraglider is under the Cessna’s nose and unless he’s doing clearing turns for some odd reason in cruise he’s not going to see her.
PG rarely maintain altitude, so he was not at that altitude for long, and not on the airplane's 12 for long. Someone was remiss, maybe the PGer. There's almost always plenty of time to see PGs from miles away. Gliders on the other hand are practically invisible, so I assume that airplanes don't see me.
Paragliders are easy to see from 2-3 miles away in VMC conditions, but only if you're looking for them. They don't have ADSB-out.
A few glider-sailplanes have ADSB-out, and that's good because high performance gliders are very hard to see, especially when they're on your 12. As an airplane pilot, you might not expect a glider to still be on your 12 at same altitude by the time you get there, but it's common for gliders to maintain position and altitude when they're struggling to find the center of a weak thermal. The good thing about gliders/paragliders is that they don't have assigned altitudes and they're often gaining or losing altitude, so they tend to have vertical separation when an airplane is flying at an assigned altitudes. Glider do sometimes maintain altitude but I try to avoid 'assigned altitudes' when that works for me.
For starters, take note of the Glider Icon on sectional charts.
Do you change heading for paragliders? I give them wide berth because they seem unpredictable to me, even though they are slow moving. I can see their bright canopies from miles away.
This was in Europe, so I don't know the European regulations, but if this were in the USA, you aren't quite correct. That would be true if they were converging "except head-on, or nearly so" per 14 CFR 91.113(d). However, in this case, it appeared they were converging head on, and per 14 CFR 91.113(e):
When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.
Go re-read 91.113 and then you can edit or delete your comment
(f)Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
FAR 103.13 (a) Each person operating an ultralight vehicle shall maintain vigilance so as to see and avoid aircraft and shall yield the right-of-way to all aircraft.
Ultralights are classified as “vehicles,” not aircraft. Seriously. That’s how the FAA is able to let them be flown without airworthiness or pilot certification. So the 91 rule doesn’t actually apply and ultralights are required to avoid all aircraft. Of course, this would be a lot easier if ultralights were allowed to broadcast ADS-B, which they currently are not able to in the US.
It appeared to me that the paraider was being blown backwards, which would make what you cited not applicable here -- and I was very clear that it appeared to me to be head on. It's possible I misinterpreted the video, but what I wrote is still true when a paraglider and a Cessna are converging head on or nearly so -- the paraglider doesn't get the right of way.
Regardless, my point is still correct. You made a general point about a paraglider always having right of way over an airplane, and that just isn't always true. How about you edit or delete your comment?
See and avoid means just that. Big sky theory holds true up until it doesn't.
I've come within 100ft of a paraglider while departing IFR out of KSDL. Conditions were VMC, and both aircraft were in E airspace. Reported him to approach, and the jet departing after me saw him too.
GA traffic is nearly invisible outside of 2 miles. I doubt that cessna ever saw that woman in the paraglider.
ScathedRuins@reddit
I fly regularly in areas with paragliders, and once quite close to where this happened. Maybe 1 in every 5 is carrying a FLARM transponder which shows up on my foreflight, but the rest of the time i have to rely on seeing their canopy. luckily i usually fly quite a bit higher than them, and they tend to ride thermals along mountain ridges whereas i’m usually more in the middle (i’m not flying in super tight canyons, closer to the north side of where the alps start so canyons are quite wide). Still, I have had more than my fair share of encounters which make you wonder a bit. These guys really don’t give a fuck 🤣
ScathedRuins@reddit
look at my comment history if you want further evidence of how little people understand about airspace. they’re calling for the public execution of this pilot
21MPH21@reddit
We (121) sometimes can't find jets (chemtrails help, thanks Obama /^s)
So yeah, a paraglider with a 3' x 30' visible area could be hard to spot.
OzrielArelius@reddit
I promise you've never had trouble finding a jet 1000ft away
21MPH21@reddit
Huh? Why even say that?
A jet is 150' (more or less)
A paraglider chute is 30'
Yeah, I can see the jet at 2 miles
Thanks for pointing that out /^s
OzrielArelius@reddit
I'm saying yeah we have trouble finding jets in the sky cause they're typically miles away. when they're 1000 above it's not hard to spot.
so the comparison that "we have a hard time seeing big airliners so obv it's hard to see a paraglider" doesn't really make sense when the paraglider is a few thousand feet away not miles. but anyway have a nice day
JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
Particularly if you’re both at about the same altitude and you’re only seeing it from, in this case, the rear. A quick googling puts the average thickness of fully inflated paraglider wing at just 12-16 inches.
Doing the math on the average paraglider wing area (~270 sq ft) with that thickness, at a 1/4 nm away and 20’ higher the Cessna pilot would have had about 3.5 square feet of visible surface area to react to. I have carry-on bags larger than that.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
I once got uncomfortably close with one. Probably under a mile, a few thousand feet away. Just ahead of my right wing at maybe 3,000 feet or so. I was really not happy that I hadn't noticed them until I was about even with them, pretty scary. Big "pay attention dumbass" moment for me.
This happened maybe a dozen miles north of KRUT - I know there's hang glider activity closer to Castleton but I was surprised to see them in the Rutland valley.
vtjohnhurt@reddit (OP)
To my knowledge, practically no glider or PG in Class E in VMC makes any effort to stay off ILS path. A few gliders have transponders/ADSB-out, and those who don't have digital conspicuity may give Approach a position report when they're obviously on the extended centerline of a runway (in Class E). For example, near Camel's Hump on BTV rw 35's extended centerline. It is sometimes necessary to try to climb in that area before moving on. It's nice to have ADSB-out in that situation, because I know that ATC can see me. Likewise for airplanes landing on rw 35. I assume that airplanes don't visually see gliders.
The glider pilots that I fly with let BTV ATC know when gliders are above 5-6000 in mountain wave. We let them know how how we plan to go. Say FL100. ATC is good about steering power traffic away and they periodically broadcast a warning about mountain wave and gliders for VFR traffic.
I've seen PG near Sugarbush Ski Resort a few times, so maybe they also launch from the top of Killington Ski Resort.
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
Absolutely despise the Paragliders in my area for this reason.
leftrightrudderstick@reddit
I also despise the curbs on my street when I run over them.
bnh35440@reddit
It is 2026. The technology (ADSB out, and radios) exists to allow this type of traffic (paraglides, powered parachute, gliders) to separate themselves from powered aircraft.
You are taking your life in your hands when you choose to intermix with high speed traffic, for a fucking hobby. It is equivalent to taking a kick scooter onto the shoulder of a highway, except for some reason it isn’t illegal.
ILS_Pilot@reddit
How difficult would this be to see in a plane?
I'm decent at spotting planes when called to by tower, most of the time*, but that's when I'm forced to look. Haven't started XC yet. Do people constantly look out for things like this?
SSMDive@reddit
A parachute is like a big, colorful, almost stationary traffic cone.
You can see them from miles away.
JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
True enough but this video looks like the paraglider was moving almost directly away from the Cessna and would have been under its nose in a blind spot. No relative motion and mostly (or entirely) obscured is going to make avoidance a bit difficult.
leftrightrudderstick@reddit
It was thermalling. It's a giant colorful piece of fabric in the sky. If you can't avoid that then you shouldn't be flying a plane.
JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
Blind spots aside, the paraglider was roughly the same altitude so it’s not like you’re seeing the entirety of the wing. The pilot of the approaching Cessna would be seeing it on edge which is a much smaller target to see regardless of how colorful it is. At a distance of a nautical mile an object of that size is distinguishable but just barely. Pretty easy to miss as it goes within a minute from an unrecognizable dot in the distance blending with the terrain to a barely resolvable object as you close the distance. But by then the paraglider is under the Cessna’s nose and unless he’s doing clearing turns for some odd reason in cruise he’s not going to see her.
SSMDive@reddit
PG have a MUCH worse glide ratio than a powered aircraft.
So that PG would have started higher and ended lower by the time the plane got there.
And that ‘stationary object’ was brightly colored.
And even going sideways, that PG has almost no motion relative to an aircraft. So again, it mostly would seem to be stationary.
vtjohnhurt@reddit (OP)
PG rarely maintain altitude, so he was not at that altitude for long, and not on the airplane's 12 for long. Someone was remiss, maybe the PGer. There's almost always plenty of time to see PGs from miles away. Gliders on the other hand are practically invisible, so I assume that airplanes don't see me.
Impossible-Bad-2291@reddit
It worries me that you even ask that question...
vtjohnhurt@reddit (OP)
u/ILS_Pilot is not even a student pilot (see their flair). It makes no sense to mock them.
Impossible-Bad-2291@reddit
Their post itself says:
That tells me that they are a student pilot. But maybe you know better.
RaveNdN@reddit
Right? Seems common sense. I guess not.
swaggler@reddit
I see them all the time under VFR. How this incident occurred is sure to contain some learning points.
stouset@reddit
Yes. This is why you want your eyes up out of the cockpit as much as is practical in VMC. Staring at your Garmin all flight is not smart.
vtjohnhurt@reddit (OP)
Paragliders are easy to see from 2-3 miles away in VMC conditions, but only if you're looking for them. They don't have ADSB-out.
A few glider-sailplanes have ADSB-out, and that's good because high performance gliders are very hard to see, especially when they're on your 12. As an airplane pilot, you might not expect a glider to still be on your 12 at same altitude by the time you get there, but it's common for gliders to maintain position and altitude when they're struggling to find the center of a weak thermal. The good thing about gliders/paragliders is that they don't have assigned altitudes and they're often gaining or losing altitude, so they tend to have vertical separation when an airplane is flying at an assigned altitudes. Glider do sometimes maintain altitude but I try to avoid 'assigned altitudes' when that works for me.
For starters, take note of the Glider Icon on sectional charts.
foospork@reddit
Yes.
ApprehensiveVirus217@reddit
Difficult to see, but there’s places where it’s more common and is likely notated as such. Same with parachute jumping.
vtjohnhurt@reddit (OP)
Do you change heading for paragliders? I give them wide berth because they seem unpredictable to me, even though they are slow moving. I can see their bright canopies from miles away.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Why would you not? They have the right away
__joel_t@reddit
This was in Europe, so I don't know the European regulations, but if this were in the USA, you aren't quite correct. That would be true if they were converging "except head-on, or nearly so" per 14 CFR 91.113(d). However, in this case, it appeared they were converging head on, and per 14 CFR 91.113(e):
No mention of different categories.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Go re-read 91.113 and then you can edit or delete your comment
(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
LongJohnMcVenturson@reddit
FAR 103.13 (a) Each person operating an ultralight vehicle shall maintain vigilance so as to see and avoid aircraft and shall yield the right-of-way to all aircraft.
leftrightrudderstick@reddit
Again, 91.113. A glider has the right-of-way over powered aircraft.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
And how does someone see traffic behind them? Such as what happened in the video
LongJohnMcVenturson@reddit
Rotate your head and scan? I just wanted to show there’s actually a reg specific for ultralight traffic avoidance and it’s pretty clear cut.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Wait until you find out traffic avoidance is the responsibility of every pilot regardless of what a certain reg says
LongJohnMcVenturson@reddit
Thanks chief. So sorry for correcting your previous allegation that the paraglider had the right of way.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Well one is a 91 FAR and what you quoted is a 103 FAR
And the 91 FAR says any *aircraft*. So it still applies.
Pretty_Marsh@reddit
Ultralights are classified as “vehicles,” not aircraft. Seriously. That’s how the FAA is able to let them be flown without airworthiness or pilot certification. So the 91 rule doesn’t actually apply and ultralights are required to avoid all aircraft. Of course, this would be a lot easier if ultralights were allowed to broadcast ADS-B, which they currently are not able to in the US.
__joel_t@reddit
It appeared to me that the paraider was being blown backwards, which would make what you cited not applicable here -- and I was very clear that it appeared to me to be head on. It's possible I misinterpreted the video, but what I wrote is still true when a paraglider and a Cessna are converging head on or nearly so -- the paraglider doesn't get the right of way.
Regardless, my point is still correct. You made a general point about a paraglider always having right of way over an airplane, and that just isn't always true. How about you edit or delete your comment?
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Just because you’re wrong doesn’t make me wrong
RaveNdN@reddit
Yes you change direction. Why would you not? Just plan to hit them?
twistenstein@reddit
See and avoid means just that. Big sky theory holds true up until it doesn't.
I've come within 100ft of a paraglider while departing IFR out of KSDL. Conditions were VMC, and both aircraft were in E airspace. Reported him to approach, and the jet departing after me saw him too.
GA traffic is nearly invisible outside of 2 miles. I doubt that cessna ever saw that woman in the paraglider.
N546RV@reddit
Well at least this turned out a lot better than the last Cessna vs paraglider incident.
DatSexyDude@reddit
Nuts.