Crack in unstable California chemical tank may reduce explosion risk, official says. 2pm update
Posted by Due_Will_2204@reddit | PrepperIntel | View on Reddit | 68 comments
There is more to the article than what is posted below but it's basically rehashing what's already been said and done.
Firefighters have found a potential crack in the massive tank filled with a toxic chemical at risk of explosion in Southern California, officials said Sunday. The crack may be relieving pressure inside, which could change the responding team’s approach as tens of thousands remain evacuated and officials race to stave off a potentially catastrophic blast.
About 50,000 people in Orange County have been told to evacuate, with many spending the Memorial Day weekend in shelters, hotels or with friends and family outside the danger zone. Busy tourist destinations like Disneyland and Knott’s Berry Farm are nearby but are not included in the evacuation zone.
The chemical inside the tank, methyl methacrylate, or MMA, can cause respiratory issues and irritation to the skin and eyes upon exposure, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.
"Our firefighters went in, and they were able to visualize the tank. What they found was a potential crack in the tank, which could potentially be relieving some of the pressure in there,” Orange County Fire Authority Interim Fire Chief TJ McGovern said Sunday.
McGovern said the discovery was “a step in the right direction” and asked the public for their patience.
“With this new information, it could change our trajectory and our strategy to this event. Last night was a successful operation for this emerging incident, this ongoing incident,” he said.
McGovern told CNN there is currently no leak or impact on air quality, adding that continuous air monitoring at the scene has shown readings remain within normal limits and nothing is currently escaping from the tank.
The tank’s temperature gauge has maxed out at 100 degrees, making it difficult to determine how much hotter conditions inside may actually be, McGovern said.
Once the potential crack is fully vetted and validated, it could lead officials to scale back the evacuation zone, he told CNN.
“A low-volume release, where the local authorities are going to be able to monitor, neutralize, and contain a threat,” is most likely, Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Lee Zeldin told CNN earlier Sunday morning.
lexmozli@reddit
US has so much space, why do you guys keep dangerous chemicals in the middle if the city?
Salty-Passenger-4801@reddit
Ikr. We even have these places with underground storage tanks that are filled with thousands of gallons of highly flamable and explosive liquids like gasoline and diesel fuel. All over the place
lexmozli@reddit
Gas is a commodity that we need daily, MMA is not. I mean, not having MMA in the middle of the city is not going to get you stranded or starving.
Salty-Passenger-4801@reddit
The issue is the facility. Theyve been fined numerous times, and haven't fixed shit. Now it's come to this.
Garden Grove is pretty densely populated near the facility. Not sure why it's directly in the middle of surrounding neighborhoods, but this wouldn't be an issue if the company actually followed safety and maintenance protocols but they didn't.
lexmozli@reddit
Yeah, but this would've been a way less of an issue if the facility would've been on the outskirts or even outside the city. Why trust a company to respect rules when there's a lot of history when they didn't. Instead, force them in certain area for easier damage control IF shit hits the fan.
Instead of evacuating tens of thousands of people, you would've evacuated a few thousands tops.
Flood_Incantation@reddit
When built it probably was on the outskirts or outside the city but the city grew around it. There are so many facilities like this where residential areas expanded around the facility and they wouldnt spend the money to recreat the infrastructure farther away just for the same thing to happen, especially in places of huge population growth over the last 50 years like in California or cities on the east coast.
Salty-Passenger-4801@reddit
Yeah I agree. This is Amirica though so we don't care about people. Only profit
rhiea@reddit
Is there a crack leaking and releasing pressure or is there no leak affecting air quality ? These two options seem very contradictory
poetbypractice@reddit
I believe based on earlier reporting that whatever chemical is in the tanks can harden, from the outside toward the core. Seems possible that a crack in the tank could release come containing pressure and allow the chemical to continue to explain and harden, while also not allowing any liquid runoff or leak. I am not a scientist, just a reddit article reader.
MentalDisintegrat1on@reddit
For something to go boom the pressure has to be greater than the container itself so yes if it's a crack and it's leaking that means pressure is going down.
I have no clue what's actually in it and if it's dangerous material leaking but it shouldn't go boom.
Nemisis_the_2nd@reddit
And if the container is weaker, the pressure needed is smaller, so the boom is also smaller.
Omateido@reddit
Ya, but as the article and OP mentioned, air readings are not indicating release, which implies nothing is leaking, which implies pressure will not drop.
MentalDisintegrat1on@reddit
Oh I missed that.
NiceTill504@reddit
it could go boom if the conditions are right. It can also turn into explosives peroxides. There is a wide array or risks depending on variables.
MentalDisintegrat1on@reddit
Is that what's in it? If it's something highly flammable then yeah it could go boom crack or not.
NiceTill504@reddit
here's a link to the OSHA safety data sheet to read about it
melympia@reddit
The problem with that theory is that the crack leads "outside", thus the hardening chemical inside should clog it in no time.
So, we still have the qurstion: Open crack (=leak) or bo open crack (=no leak).
NiceTill504@reddit
Methyl Methacrylate turns solid by way of exothermic reaction. That is the explosion risk. It does not calmly turn solid in a confined space, it need working pressure release valves to control the heat creating pressure within.
poetbypractice@reddit
Oh, gotcha, I misunderstood that. Then I’m back to having no idea either.
Soggy_Seaworthiness6@reddit
Yeah that actually makes sense. This is one giant experiment over whether polymerization or pressure buildup will win
JohnnyBoy11@reddit
interesting...i thought it was explosion vs spill
Soggy_Seaworthiness6@reddit
Yeah I don’t think they recognized this possibility at the time of that initial post information but scientists are chiming in that it’s possible
New_Stats@reddit
ThatPerspective3765@reddit
Mma actually breaks down rapidly in the air into totally harmless compounds. Or contact with water. Outside of being incinerated by an explosion, it’s more or less not an environmental threat.
P0Rt1ng4Duty@reddit
I think it is a double walled tank. A tank inside of another tank. If the inner tank springs a leak, the chemicals flow into the outer shell and they can address the issue before anything escapes into the environment.
If the outside tank gets a hole in it, nothing leaks out. That seems to be what's happening here.
Soggy_Seaworthiness6@reddit
Yeah I’m confused too. 10 miles east.
Ebscriptwalker@reddit
Why only earth would their temp gage max out at 100 degrees? Let's just say the tank is supposed to blow at 90, I would personally install a gage rated for at least 150. Might even be tempted to add a pressure gage as well. But those probably would cost 100 bucks more. So instead they trolly thought the cost benifet of risking a few tens of thousands of lives was not worth it.
Livid-Yellow-1243@reddit
Clearly you've never dealt with the burocracy of manufacturing. Lots of paperwork to justify $100 when it theoretically shouldn't matter.
Due_Will_2204@reddit (OP)
I'm thinking they were cost cutting everything
stopusingyallweirdo@reddit
Are there other well-populated urban areas with a chemical plant like this?
NiceTill504@reddit
That chemical can form explosive peroxides when mixed with air.
ThatPerspective3765@reddit
Yes, and if its not blowing up will quickly dissolve into harmless compounds
hera-fawcett@reddit
is it harmless is such large quantities? like, on a normal day, it has potential to affect skin, eyes, nose, throat, and lungs- sometimes the nervous system. on a day where it may be leaking or exploding, can it be said that itll end up dissolving into harmless compound?
FuzzzyRam@reddit
It will end up dissolving into harmless compounds, yes, the issue is what happens if it's covering the whole area before that point. Flammable and toxic, then oxidized and just needing cleaned up (by the EPA head who doesn't believe the EPA should exist...).
ThatPerspective3765@reddit
Well the timeframe of toxicity is VERY short. Think hours to days at most. Then it’s harmless. Biggest risk is inferno and explosion lol.
cyanescens_burn@reddit
Can regular citizens buy respirators and filters that protect against these kinds of leaks?
Zephyr_Dragon49@reddit
There are some available. Like everyone was using N95s during peak covid, that's a type of respirator. P100 are more effective and oil resistant, that's another type of respirator but both of those are just for particulate matter
The danger here is methyl methacrylate which is organic. I know you can buy half face respirators (you might even see full face that has eye & face shielding but I have no clue if regular hardware stores whould sell organic vapor rated cartridges. They might since paints and flooring release VOCs so they'd be useful for contractors in the area. Specialized equipment usually gets ordered from the companies selling it like MSA and Grainger
NiceTill504@reddit
Major hardware store usually carry VOC cartridges for 3m. They are hard plastic vented and pink cartridges. Not the soft flexible filters, those are for particulate.
ConferenceSudden1519@reddit
Get out of the area if you’re in it as a veteran that has been blown thee fuck up in 3 different chemical bombs that were about this size but not pressure. Get away and tell everyone you know that want to risk their lives. To please make other arrangements otherwise risk permanently damaging your body and dna.
NiceTill504@reddit
Thank you!! I’m not sure that the news is properly understanding and communicating the immense risk if it explodes or turns into explosive peroxides in the immediate area.
dtruax@reddit
Gas masks with NBC filters should help for a time, but if you don't already have them on hand you're probably not getting them in time. Also skin contact probably isn't great. Best to just leave the area.
NiceTill504@reddit
This is a link to the Material Safety Data sheet for MMA from OSHA for the curious.
melympia@reddit
Thanks, this is the kind of info we're here for.
R2-DMode@reddit
Disneyland could be right next to this facility and they’d still not evacuate. Unless, of course, it was leaking COVID, then they’d shut down for another year.
FuzzzyRam@reddit
Covid is real and people spread it by coughing near other people. I don't care what your media shithole told you.
Due_Will_2204@reddit (OP)
They don't want to give up that hard earned tourist money.
Soggy_Seaworthiness6@reddit
If it blows, they could be exposed to the vapors, but mild exposure isn’t considered dangerous so those areas aren’t being evacuated.
SpiritTalker@reddit
Guess it's not an emergency afterall.....?
justasque@reddit
It’s pretty clearly an emergency. The emergency is that there are several different ways this situation could play out, and some of them could result in fatalities. No one knows yet how this will play out. If it ends up that the firefighters’ strategies work and there is no explosion or chemical leak *that doesn’t mean the evacuation was unwarranted”.
People in emergency management look at both the likelihood of Badness and the potential severity of Badness when deciding whether to evacuate an area or take other measures to keep people safe. Sometimes that means that safety measures are taken to mitigate a low-likelihood situation, because the potential severity is really bad.
Think_Bread6401@reddit
I thought 100 degrees was the threshold?
bristlybits@reddit
not great, not terrible.
joeg26reddit@reddit
Garden Grove. Soon to be Plastic Grove
Broad-Lobster7470@reddit
Oh great. Our negligence has led to a leak in the tank but at least it won’t explode because of it now.
Katefreak@reddit
No, no! Not a leak, tis but a crack.
I'm not sure why that is better, or even much different. But I'm sure they are definitely being 100% honest about the situation. Definitely.
anuthertw@reddit
I actually feel like they are being pretty transparent in this situation tbh
rem_lap@reddit
I worked hazmat response for over a decade.
If it makes you feel any better or at least maybe less pessimistic, this incident has had the most transparent reporting I think I've ever seen... although one may still need to have a base level understanding of hazmat response to read what they are saying. (As opposed to the daily reporting of the situation of East Palestine derailment, which it was VERY apparent that they were being less than truthful...)
I cant remember a time where Ive seen the Public Information Officer (PIO) of Unified Command reporting on a hazmat incident be so open about the lack of control they have of a pending "worst case scenario" (for the lack of a better phrase). My gut tells me that we are getting mostly honest info and only because the incident is in California, being managed by local authorities as opposed to being in a more conservative state.
And please understand that if the contents of that tank are able to be released to the immediate proximity of the tank, even if it hits the ground for subsequent remediation via immediate neutralization/stabilization, containment, recovery, and then final removal of impacted soil by excavation.... that result is infinitely better than if that tank goes boom.
As I understand it, the current situation is that the tank is being pressurized and heated up from the exothermic nature of the chemical reaction that the MMA in the tank is undergoing. The tank's pressure relief device (PRD) is non-functional because of the polymerization of the MMA gumming that shit up.
There is NO ONE involved that wants that thing to go boom. If it goes boom, then so do the surrounding tanks of other chemicals (which i believe are of the BIG BADA BOOM variety).
Anyway, you said you weren't sure if a leak versus a crack was any different or better... I would just state that pretty much anything that allows pressure/heat to escape that vessel slowly is a plus. Anything to prevent an explosion in this scenario is a plus.
A leak would mean the contents are actively escaping the vessel. A crack could mean a hairline fracture has been identified by thermal imaging where excess heat was observed to be escaping, but the identified fracture in the tankwall or roof isn't large enough for the actual chemical product to be escaping.
The "within normal range" air monitoring readings they are referring to are likely the readings outside of the immediate hotzone/exclusion zone.
All of this is just my own speculation based off of reading reports the last few days. My goal is only to add a little context from the little that I know. I am not personally involved in this incident or in hazmat response these days. There are much more informed/educated folks (chemical engineers, hazmat chemists, etc.) that have commented on posts about this incident.
With all of that said, if it does happen to go boom, I can only hope that Lee Zeldin is standing immediately next to it. That unqualified shitstained waste-of-good-oxygen goat fucker wouldnt know the first thing about hazmat response or any environmental response. Dont believe anything he says or trust anything he does. May he choke on his own tongue while huffing fumes of MMA.
Due_Will_2204@reddit (OP)
I read that in a Monty Python and Holy Grail voice
C-Alucard231@reddit
they think its most likely not going to explode.
because of the way the material behaves, it could self seal the opening enough on the outside, so the inside still undergoing reaction can build pressure.
i would assume the pressure retention strength of the material once it is cured, is lower than a steel tank, but thats just a guess.
BHX85@reddit
This is like a simpsons episode
Eric_Durden@reddit
https://i.redd.it/qtcbs6tku53h1.gif
12ed12ook@reddit
Don't thank me, thank... The crack!
usmcnick0311Sgt@reddit
Anybody else thinking of Homer when he gets obese to work from home? Then, goes to stop an imminent explosion? And he gets stuck?
mrzipperdoo@reddit
What even is this "toxic chemical"? No one uses its name
Longjumping_Lynx_972@reddit
Is this "no one" in the room with us right now?
BachBelt@reddit
it's the a big container of the stuff they use to make plexiglass
NonStopArseGas@reddit
methyl methacrylate, says right there
Forrest-Fern@reddit
I live in Garden Grove, this is best case scenario rn
Soggy_Seaworthiness6@reddit
And it hardening into a giant piece of plastic lmao. Here’s hoping.