Toyota’s EVs charges slow as shit, has piss poor range, and had their wheels literally falling off. Let’s not pretend Toyota is some paragon of high quality automotive engineering when it comes to EVs. They are barely considered better than the Indian and Vietnamese offerings and that’s a low bar already.
Toyota's recent decline in quality and Honda's embracing mediocrity is going to be studied for years. Toyota is great, but it's no longer this gold standard of automotive excellence like the reputation that preceded it
Toyota EVs are just pretty bad. Of course, Toyota is very good at ICE, they may be the best company at ICE in the world.
But when it comes to EVs, they are pretty substandard.
> they may be the best company at ICE in the world.
Honda and Yamaha are side-eyeing you right now.
The Prius established the pattern of full (non-mild) hybrids that everyone has followed, definitely.
But even with the revision, the Toyota BZ4X is behind in sales in Australia, compared to the Chinese EVs. It's #13 for sales for EVs so far this year in Australia: https://thedriven.io/2026/05/05/australian-electric-vehicle-sales-by-month-in-2026-by-model-and-by-brand/
Australia is one of the best western markets to compare Chinese EVs against the cars from other countries, since the tariff is either low on other countries, or there is no tariff at all, which means it's an even playing field.
And Toyota is the #1 overall car seller in Australia too, they have a huge brand name in Australia. Despite this, even with the improvements, the BZ4X still comes in at #13.
There are simply better EVs, more advanced EVs, than what Toyota has to offer in Australia.
I would agree with you, but you could tell that from my flair ;)
I didn't say the bZ4X is good: I said it fixed all three of the flaws he listed. The revision isn't equal to the competition (the Geely EX5 is probably the best option in midsize EV SUVs right now, the Aion V if you're a risktaker) but it did fix all three of those problems and Toyota went from "what" to "somewhat competitive" with it.
I agree with you: I would go so far as to say it ain't exactly the 13th best EV in Australia, but that Toyotas sell themselves to a rather silly degree.
> has complimented the technology in Chinese cars
Chinese cars are famous for their technology. It would be a lot more interesting to know what a Toyota head engineer thought about all the parts that aren't shared with a smartphone.
I don’t see software as a major differentiator for car makers.
It is more like smart home than smart phone business. Google and Amazon only keep pushing their home products as a funnel into their other products. Cars aren’t the best idea for funnel due to the high cost and low replacement frequency.
>I will pay extra for a dumb TV.
Really? That’s the one thing I’ll spend the money for in terms of tech. We don’t have a cable subscription so having Netflix, Prime, and YouTube on the TV without extra cables or a separate device is essential.
Meanwhile I don’t need 360 cams or gigantic screens in my car because I have eyes and ears and can turn my head and listen to the proximity sensors.
I don't get this sentiment because like, you can do that with a smart TV.
I have an LG and I use either a shield or my Xbox, I never deal with it's built in features.
You *can* but it makes the TV a lot more of a pain in the arse. A dumb TV you can just plug in a Chromecast, a smart TV you can do that but you also need to deal with a UI that wants you to use the software and is built around you using it. The TV we have, it very much dislikes that it's never been connected to the internet, it takes a fair while to spin up despite being quite new, and it requires you to go through at least two screens before reaching free to air TV or the Chromecast. It also likes to sometimes prompt you to PLEEEASE connect it to the internet so it can show us ads and send our data to the manufacturer.
Past a certain and fairly low price point you don't have much of a choice, of course. High end dumb TVs don't really exist, to my knowledge.
That's not a dumb TV. In fact, every single TV can do that. What TV doesn't give you HDMI ports? That's probably not what he was talking about. Lots of people on reddit romantize garbage like that.
Yeah. In cars, I just want the essential technology good cameras, good maps, smooth and bright screen, and good Bluetooth connection. With android auto, there is literally nothing else but even that is not a priority for me. Thats all I need.
I hold the opposite opinion, especially on electric cars. However, by software I mean not just the car's infotainment system, but the control softwares running the car's drivetrain. From a control systems basis, developing an ICE car is very different from developing an EV because an EV is practically a whole bunch of computers talking together. Now I know modern ICE cars have various controllers as well, but on an EV, every main part of the drivetrain is controlled by a computer. You got the BMS, the MCU, the IMD, the VCCU, the EBS, and so on. They have their own control software and they constantly talk to one another. This is why it's so much harder to tune an EV, since it's not just slapping a turbo, upgrading your cooling, and then fitting an aftermarket ECU to run your upgraded engine.
This is where software comes in. Let's take the BMS. A better software could mean better thermal management, better fault handling, a more precise SOC estimation that ultimately means more range. Same goes for the MCU, which relates to what the Mitsubishi engineer said on the article about the impressive motor control of BYD trucks.
So yeah, software matters **a whole lot more** in future cars, which probably are EVs, compared to legacy cars.
Yeah, the premise that the software isn't a differentiator is probably held in tandem with 'there's no replacement for displacement' theorists. Tesla's control software of their motors basically gave them efficiency advantages that took half a decade for others to match.
I have not seen evidence of this in the electric cars that I’ve driven.
- Tesla Model 3
- Tesla Model Y
- Tesla Model S
- Ford Mustang Mach-E
- BMW i4
- BMW iX
- Audi e-tron
- Hyundai Ioniq 5
- Hyundai Ioniq 6
If you just mapped them to their battery and weight (hardware), I feel you can accurately sort them in charging speed and range. A genius algorithm does not substitute for an oil cooler on the track.
The gap in daily powertrain feel was very small compared to ICE. Like with ICE you have everything between B58 smoothness and Malibu flushing liquid through the engine while stopped, rattling four poppers, etc. With EV they are all decent.
I mean I work on the development of EVs so I can very much testify that shit software makes a ton of difference haha
I can't really speak to all the vehicles you mentioned because I'm not part of their development process, but sometimes the differences in software can be bit more qualitative than that. For example, fault handling. A good fault handling strategy can be the difference between the car reaching the garage in a degraded state, or it shutting down in the middle of the road.
>With EV they are all decent.
Hmm, I feel like this is partly because they've been polished and tested extensively by the manufacturers, and partly because they're just commuter cars and most people can't really tell the small differences. Take the EBS, for example. The Mercedes EQS has been said to have unnatural brake feel, and that's because the EBS software did not perform brake blending as we expected.
One other example is the IONIQ 5N, which is excellent. It's been lauded for being a convincing simulation of an ICE hot hatch, hasn't it? All of that is because of software.
I’m not saying that software is unimportant, but that innovations aren’t major differentiator. It’s not going to be a Nokia moment, but more like a smart home device. The demand is lukewarm enough that you can catch up later or keep lagging behind, and it won’t be a deal breaker for business.
I think autonomous driving will be won by software companies, not car makers. They have so much more money to invest into this and an incentive to influence where you get routed to (sponsored recommendations). Car makers will be like camera maker for iPhone.
I understand your sentiment, but unfortunately I have to disagree again haha. You know how the term SDV is being used by a lot of car companies these days? It's not by accident. It's becoming more and more important to not fall behind in terms of software.
Let's go back to the IONIQ 5N. Its whole USP, the N shifting mode, that's software. With software, Hyundai proved that EVs can be made quite fun. And now companies like Mercedes and Ferrari are implementing similar systems to their EVs. Toyota, I think, is exploring a similar system. They don't want to be left behind.
On the other hand, look at Stellantis. Its STLA cars are riddled with issues, in large part due to undercooked software. With EVs getting more and more intelligent and adding more and more features, software becomes more and more important.
With regards to autonomous driving. My response to your comment is yes, and no. Yes, in the sense that big software companies have more chance of leading, but no in the sense that car companies are increasingly becoming more like software companies, and some software companies, like Huawei, are becoming car companies, designing entire powertrain solutions alongside their autonomous driving suite.
Yeah people done understand how much software controls things on even “dumb” cars. A great example of how shit software can make a car, people should drive the Dodge Charger EVs. The acceleration curve, and steering and all that is so bad that it makes people sick kinda.
Another example is, there’s a VinFast EV, where if 1 wheel looses traction, it boosts that wheel to like 120mph and it spins so fast. It’s scary lol. All just because 1 wheel lost traction…
For mass market its probably one of the main differentiators. Once you get up in price towards enthusiast/sport/luxury other factors can take over, although obviously it’s still highly relevant in the luxury sector.
I'm waiting for someone to do "dumb" EV. I don't need computer studio on wheels, but it seems to me that somehow electric drivetrain means it has to have 10 displays, led strips everywhere, and a lot of other useless crap...
We highly sure you able to make your Toyota more advanced, but you could sacrifice its longevity and reliability.
We don’t doubt Chinese cars getting better, but we still doubt their longevity and reliability.
Long warranty never really mean and promise no fault, automaker just offer you free fixing if you get issue.
Besides, some automakers make unclear warranties, you aren’t 100% gotten fix, and their dealership are even trying other ways not giving their customers warranty. Yea, I’m talking you, Hyundai.
I think his point is, much like Hyundai/Kia, it greatly depends on how high the percentage is of cars that have no issues and how the brand takes care of its customers. If you have an unreliable product, a ten year warranty isn't going to save you from having to pay for a rental while your car is in the shop and the dealer refuses to give you a loaner. We see some of that stress fatigue with H/K owners in the US saying "never again". On the other hand, you have the owners of the good cars singing their praises, so it really has to be looked at from the 50k foot view of risk level acceptance for the owner.
Yeah, not shit-canning them at all here, just saying that they have to pass trial by fire and prove they have an equitable brand to skeptical people, just like the Koreans did/are doing. That's especially true if you're seeking to gain conquest customers.
I don’t think the Koreans have done it yet, Kia have had issues with engine seizures, and getting the actual engine replaced means you’re without a car for a long period of time
and with new EVs new issues, the ICCU issue has been pretty common, as well as theft issues. Imo their responses to these issues have left much to be desired.
While I don’t think Chinese cars are on the same reliability level as Japanese OEMs, I actually think they are pretty much on par with Korean and European OEMs, and are superior to American cars.
Part of that is due how much more advanced and automated their factories are. Unlike the big 3, none of these Chinese EV companies are dealing with legacy suppliers and labor unions.
My only pet peeves about chinese cars are after sales services specifically on parts logistics. Not sure how other countries are treated, but in Indonesia, I had a friend who have waited weeks to get his rear suspension replacement.
The funny thing is last time I visited Macau, saw multiple older BYD e6 with 6 digit kilometers. The drivers told me spareparts are quite abundant so im guessing its due to how close macau is to china.
If BYD somehow matured their spareparts logistics, then i have no doubt BYD can get over its "made in china" image in many countries.
Considering Tesla's operation isn't as matured as many carmakers, that's expected which is why Tesla aren't for everyone.
Idk why people in this sub still don't get that not everyone has the privilege to have multiple cars, so parts availabilty is important to keep their only car running. if BYD wants to compete major car brands in other countries, parts availability should be considered.
As I said BYD can keep the parts abundant in HK and Macau, so I don't doubt they can do the same in other countries if they're putting more effort to it rather than afterthought.
I daily drive bYD m6. But i have still have my older car, which i only drive when i have to put m6 in routine maintenance.
We know the hybrid system in the RAV isn't as reliable as the ones offered in Chinese cars, against their advanced battery chemistries such as LFP, NA or both.
If their engines and electronics holds up well, it can last a long time.
He does make a good point by saying " Its amazing, but not everything can be used by them "
They have a lot of features but some of those are nice to have instead of must haves.
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