A couple questions about flying in storms...
Posted by et_hornet@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 26 comments
My first one is that on flight radar i often see planes take roundabout routes to avoid storms. That mostly makes sense to me, but I thought that because airliners are pressurized they can fly above inclement weather. If that's the case why do they still take longer routes?
Also I saw that a delta flight from new york to Raleigh the other day that did a swap escape route where the flight leaves early to avoid weather but stays at lower altitude. That delta flight flew the entire route at 5,700 feet. Isn't that too low to avoid weather, or other planes, especially in a corridor as busy as the northeast?
buddylee@reddit
My worst flight experience ever was from Chicago to St Louis when the pilot of a e175 came on and said that he's found a route for us where we can slip between some storms and make it to St Louis on time after a late departure. We did not slip through, we flew into, and it was terrible.
AutomagicJackelope@reddit
It's unlikely that you penetrated the core of a storm. It's more likely you were caught in the turbulent air between cells. This is quite common, and, to passengers, seems like you've flown into the mouth of madness.
buddylee@reddit
Yeah, I mean, the pilots may have done a fantastic job of threading the needle, but sure felt sketchy, lol.
dudefise@reddit
NY to RDU?
Sounds like an escape route. Sometimes when ATC sectors higher altitudes are saturated (controllers can’t accept another airplane) the lower ones are okay, and they’ll offer low altitude routes like this. Massive fuel burn penalty so up to the airline if it’s worth it to go or just wait it out.
Normally you’d climb back up on the other side of the restriction, but the busyness off the northeast means you’re probably most of the way there before that option is available.
AutomagicJackelope@reddit
NY to DC is another common one. The fuel burn ends up being net neutral since we're limited to 250kts under 10,000.
Ryan1869@reddit
The storms can get higher than the plane can go, it's just easier to go around than over.
Those altitudes are often due to congestion in the airspace (which could be because weather has blocked some routes). Usually the option becomes take a really low altitude clearance or wait 2 hours for ATC to give them a clearance at a more normal altitude.
ltcterry@reddit
Weather is pretty amazing. My dad was a Navy pilot and told me once of being at 50,000’ and seeing storms all around going higher than he was.
Airline pilots like to give passengers smooth flights, not just safe ones. On frequency you’ll often hear pilots giving or requesting ride reports.
spacecadet2399@reddit
Thunderstorms routinely enter the stratosphere where most commercial airliners don't even attempt to fly. We just can't fly over a really good thunderstorm; the engines and wings of the airplane aren't made for it. We can fly over most other weather, but thunderstorms would pretty much climb forever if there wasn't an atmospheric lid on them keeping them down, which you can often see with the really big ones. When you see a storm with a flat top, maybe just a tiny bit of cloud peeking up through it, that's the tropopause holding the storm down. The little bit of cloud rising above it is in the stratosphere, but it quickly falls back down and spreads out at the level of the tropopause. You can see this in pictures all over the net.
There are a few larger airliners, some business and military jets that can climb up there and get over even most big thunderstorms, but most commercial airliners can't. And those airliners with very high service ceilings still can't make it over all thunderstorms, and even if they can it's usually not by much. Given the fast-changing nature of thunderstorms, it's usually still best to avoid them if the tops are only 2,000 feet below you.
FinalArachnid4000@reddit
I believe Concorde flew high enough to fly over most storms but current passenger planes don’t fly at that altitude.
carrickshairline@reddit
Weather can reach higher than an aircraft's cruising altitude. Pilots avoid it for safety and comfort.
adjust_your_set@reddit
And the tops of thunderstorms that ready to 30-40,000 are very turbulent, and often have significant lightning and hail. All bad things to be around when flying.
Whisky-161@reddit
And not to forget significant icing even above and downwind of thunderstorms.
BusterScruggs_SC@reddit
You are falsely assuming airliners can always climb up and over a storm. A jet full of passengers or cargo, with a heavy fuel load, won't get anywhere close to it's maximum service ceiling. A jet rated for 40,000-50,000 feet might only be able to climb to 30,000 feet, and storms can reach well above that.
Also, you don't know the maintenance status of what is flying around. Sometimes anti icing systems are inoperative, so the plane can still fly but might not be legally allowed to enter icing conditions.
mfsp2025@reddit
Maintenance status is a big one. The plane I fly commonly has a bleed MEL. We can only fly up to 31,000ft with a single bleed. So even if we’re trying to climb to find smooth air, it’s tough to do when the MEL limits you to 31,000 when our normal service ceiling is 41,000
youngsod@reddit
"There is no reason to fly through a thunderstorm in peacetime.” — Sign over squadron ops desk at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona, 1970.
It may well be apocryphal, but that doesn't make it any less true. Don't pick a fight with the atmosphere, you will lose.
Crusoebear@reddit
“Why are you wasting time & money flying around thunderstorms when you can go right through them?”
-My old part 135 freight bosses
BeefPoet@reddit
The storm column can extend to over 30,000'.
pattern_altitude@reddit
Far higher than that, into the 40s and 50s.
MmmSteaky@reddit
Even 60s and 70s at times.
agha0013@reddit
Thunderstorms are massive, they can reach well above the service ceiling of pretty much every airliner.
Even if they aren't that tall, the thermals they generate can still fuck you up if you decide to fly above one. Never fly over a thunderstorm unless you're a space ship and outside the atmosphere.
Nor would you ever want to fly under a thunderstorm even if it looks like there's a clear spot, those clear spots can be particularly dangerous.
Why a particular delta flight flew a whole route at 5700 ft, I don't know, depends on a whole lot of things going on, storms, traffic, maybe even an aircraft issue.
CardinalOfNYC@reddit
5700 seems super duper low for a whole route, doesn't it? There's so little room for error and though I'm know expert I know the 10,000 bong isn't just about wifi lol
agha0013@reddit
It's not a major safety issue unless they are plowing through a bunch of uncontrolled airspace full of ga planes.
I can't say why they didn't go higher though. It's not efficient, but there must have been a reason
Guadalajara3@reddit
The escape routes are to alleviate traffic congestion at higher altitude atc sectors. Centers have a high and low sector, usually 230 and above or below. Staying low keeps them out of the main traffic corridors and incurs less delay. It burns more gas and it is lower/longer so if its not planned and coordinated with the pilots ahead of time, they usually wont be able to do them.
As for weather, I only plan the escape routes if the weather is precipitation, no thunderstorms or convective weather. Airplanes can fly through stratus precipitation with no issue, maybe a little turbulence, but absolutely no convective (thunderstorms, lightning, hail) weather
pattern_altitude@reddit
A) The weather can extend higher than airliners are able to fly.
B) Even with developing convective weather, there are intense updrafts associated with the weather that you don't really want to fly through. On top of that, hail gets blown out of the storm by the updrafts.
C) The point of these low altitude routes is to avoid airspace congestion. The higher altitude airspace is congested, but down low it's open and therefore flights can cruise right along.
noncongruent@reddit
The downside of lower altitude flight being higher fuel costs, of course, and not being able to take advantage of jet streams in certain cases.
Mauro_Ranallo@reddit
Intense storms have tops over 55,000 feet.