Are Grumman Cheetahs/Tigers a bad purchase?
Posted by PidgeyPotion@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 26 comments
It seems that purchasing a Skyhawk or Cherokee can be risky (at least riskier than other aircraft) because so many of them have spent their lives as trainers and buying an older, cheap one could end up costing far more due to maintenance. That goes for any aircraft purchase but especially with those two. What is maintenance like on a Cheetah or Tiger? I’d definitely plan to have a Grumman guru do a thorough pre-buy, and I’ve heard it’s recommended to let one do the annual every few years instead of your local A&P. There’s a company called True Flight Aerospace in Valdosta Ga that is not far from me but I don’t know anything about them.
Performance-wise I understand they cruise fairly fast for their horsepower but have considerably longer takeoff/landing rolls than the Cessna/Pipers. They also have rather poor climb performance, especially near gross weight. I read a post stating that from an owner that his Tiger cruised well at around 10k feet, but it took so long to get up there that unless he was on a very long X/C that it just wasn’t worth it.
I have a PPL and am just looking to enjoy owning an airplane. I’m not looking to build time, though hopefully I’d fly every chance I get. I’m just looking to enjoy flying, whether it’s buzzing around locally, getting $100 hamburgers and the occasional long-distance X/C.
equal2infinity@reddit
The tiger is a fun airplane to fly and ideal if you only plan on carrying one or two pax. You can also pop the canopy open on the ground for maximum airflow on a warm day. It has a free-castering nose wheel so you can maneuver easily on tight ramps. I’ve heard the modified engine cowling and power flow exhaust improve the climb/cooling characteristics but don’t have real world experience to back that up. I flew one in a club for a few years and it was my go to choice for just going out and cruising on a nice VFR day.
Proper_Hedgehog3579@reddit
Have you ever considered going the Experimental route? A Vans RV6A will cruise and climb much faster and be cheaper to operate for less money. Getting away from type certificated planes open up a lot of possibilities but are not perfect.
PidgeyPotion@reddit (OP)
Yes but i’m not mechanically inclined so experimental wouldn’t save me much on the maintenance side. Also it would be even more difficult to find a pro for maintenance.
N546RV@reddit
Not sure I agree with either of these statements. Even if you pay an A&P to work on the plane, you'll almost surely find that parts are significantly cheaper. And if you go with a super popular E-AB like an RV, I don't think you'll have a lot of trouble finding an A&P willing to work on it.
Purgent@reddit
Look at the AA-1s if you are just looking to fly locally and get the $200 hamburger. Particularly, get one with the 160hp O-320 STC and you’ll never have more fun for the money.
Cruise 120kts true at 7gph and maintenance is very minimal. Very strong airframe.
PidgeyPotion@reddit (OP)
I’ve heard that they have even less room than a Cessna 150. I have some C150 time and did NOT enjoy flying due to the small cockpit.
Purgent@reddit
I have a lot of time in 150s and I assure you the 150 feels way more cramped.
PidgeyPotion@reddit (OP)
Would a tall person like myself fit in a Yankee in your opinion? I’d definitely fly in one before committing to buying on.
Purgent@reddit
I did two checkrides with a 6’2” 200lb DPE in mine, so I’d say yes if you are more narrow than that.
Funkshow@reddit
Not great on a rainy day though
Any_Purchase_3880@reddit
I just purchased a tiger. It's amazing. DM me if you have questions, but the TLDR is that certain year/model options are amazing and some are not so great. I wouldn't fly the AA1 yankee for example because of its spin characteristics and power. But I have a 78 Tiger and it's phenomenal.
Purgent@reddit
AA1 with 160hp STC is a riot. Spin characteristics = spins are prohibited. Stalls just like any other airplane (accelerated stalls included).
raptorlupis@reddit
Wouldn’t you want to own a former training aircraft?
1. The maintenance requirements are higher for flight school aircraft
2. They are flown more and not sitting in a hanger having the engine become rusted and have corrosion . Just about every A&P out there says that it is better to fly the plane than let it sit and not fly.
PidgeyPotion@reddit (OP)
Very definitely on being flown and not sitting, but the airframe takes a lot of abuse from students doing slam & go’s.
N546RV@reddit
Also flight schools are often pretty bad about fixing/maintaining the absolute minimum possible (sometimes even less than that). But then again so are some private owners...
jarcaf@reddit
All planes are a financial mistake. But if you are so committed, the Tiger/Cheetah/Traveler may be your favorite mistake ever.
Join the type club, American Yankee Association, and read up on their prebuy and transition training documentation. You can find a list of type-specific instructors too.
Coordinate a pre-buy consult with Excel Air or FletchAir, but you'll probably need to find a more local mechanic to dig in with you. Those are the two most respected shops which focus on Grummans.
In addition to the delamination and purple-glue situation, look out for wing spar corrosion. The culprit location is not visible without a bore scope or camera, but you can access it by removing the landing gear shroud and reaching up and over the tubular spar. Gritty surface corrosion is ok-ish, but look out for bumps and exfoliation signs which indicate deeper intragranular corrosion. If that is noted, you'll have to pull the wings off and inspect the depth of corrosion. Too deep and you have to replace the spar. If you have to replace the spar you'll find they are hard to find. If you cannot find a spar, you cannot fly that plane. So... Check for spar corrosion!
We encountered that situation on ours (knowing all this ahead of time), but we lucked out and found a well-priced spar before we even got the plane. At first annual, took wings off and Spar out... Turned out ours was well within tolerance, so just polished, re-alodined, reinstalled, and sold our extra spar. That wiped out much of the stellar deal we got on the plane, but it was money well spent on all accounts.
Anyways... Enjoy your new obsession!
motorcycle_frenzy889@reddit
I’ve owned a Tiger for about a decade. I’ve flown it all over the country, including out west at 13k feet. Maintenance has been straightforward on it and most of the issues I’ve had over the years weren’t Grumman specific. That said, it does help to have a relationship with an A&P with Grumman experience. The A&P I worked with owned a Yankee for a while and he’s done great work. Feel free to DM me with any questions
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
I think grumman's can be more risky and more difficult to find an a&p familiar with the nuances.
SadSupport4999@reddit
I've flown a tiger several times, and they are a much more fun airplane than the 172. Great visibility, and as far as climb performance, while they may not have a high fpm rate, they keep going---I've flown them over 12,000. And it wasn't a struggling climb.
Garbagefailkids@reddit
The Grumman singles have a rabidly loyal and incredibly informative owners group. If you're seriously considering one, I would contact them. As a mechanic, they're honest little airplanes, with a couple idiosyncrasies to keep in mind. The only one I remember is that you should look at the lower wing skins to see if the main tires have hot them. They have fairly soft fiberglass gear, and a hard landing can deflect the tire all the way up into the lower skin, and since the skins are bonded (glued) to the ribs, there can be hidden damage.
Grumman Owners Group
jimcarroll_cfi@reddit
The grumman tiger is a great plane for a new pilot. I have several customers who own them and I regulary instruct in both cheetahs and tigers. One customer bought his just to earn his pilots license — which he did last month.
This is just my opinion, but transitioning to it has got to be the easist transition around. Learning to land the grumman is a non event. Its docile with no surprises.
The only three odd items I’ll mention. First, the seat height cannot be adjusted up/down. So if you fly with a knee board, you’ll have to loose it. Try a suction mount for your ipad or yoke clip.
Second, its a free castering nose wheel, not attached to the rudder pedals. It means you use toe brakes to stear in the ground.
Third, get used to hearing the stall horn tweet on takeoff. You rotate at 55, accelerate in ground effect and climb out at 79 (Vy). If its a short field, you can limp out at 68 (Vx), but we rarely do that. I regularly operate out of a field with 2100’ usable (displaced threshold), and have no trouble making the mid field turn off.
skunimatrix@reddit
Most important is the log books and having all of them with no gaps. We bought a 1965 Cherokee but it had all the log books from when it left the factory in 1964. We know the right flap and aileron was replaced in 1983 because a crack was found. We know the spinner was replaced in 1980 and why. Also know the Airplane never lived in Florida and has always been Midwest based. Also know it’s never been used at a flight school because no 100 hour inspections. Not to say that it’s never been used for training. I’m using it now for commercial. My wife is using it for PPL. Our daughter will use it for her PPL. But that’s not exactly the same as a flight school.
N546RV@reddit
I can't speak to the ownership aspect since I only flew them in a club, but they're fantastic GA airplanes and I'd fly one over a PA-28 or 172 any day of the week. Yeah, the landing and takeoff are a little longer, but not enough to be an issue for your average GA airport. I don't think I ever cruised above 8500' due to the climb rate.
But the tradeoff for that is you have a plane that handles like a Miata instead of a dump truck, and cruises at 135 KTAS all day on 10 GPH (in the case of the Tiger). And the folding rear seats are awesome for trips.
mikepuyallup@reddit
There is a YouTube guy who just talks about grummans (Roscoe?). I had a aa1c for many years and some of the parts are getting hard to get. Other than that they are simple and great little airplanes. I would buy a 180 hp Grumman over a c172 for the money.
e140driver@reddit
I wouldn’t say they’re a bad purchase, but they were among the first partially composite general, aviation aircraft, and some of those parts in the wing have deteriorated over the years.
from my perspective, all of the aircraft in the four seat trainer class are pretty much a wash when it comes to maintenance costs and performance. A 172 versus a Cherokee versus a four seat Grumman versus even an older Diamond all have their individual quirks that you’ll end up paying for eventually. You could also make the argument that due to total numbers, maintaining a 172 or Cherokee, even one used for flight training, would be cheaper than xyz Grumman, which is no longer in production.
I’ll leave you to come up with your own cost benefit analysis.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
It seems that purchasing a Skyhawk or Cherokee can be risky (at least riskier than other aircraft) because so many of them have spent their lives as trainers and buying an older, cheap one could end up costing far more due to maintenance. That goes for any aircraft purchase but especially with those two. What is maintenance like on a Cheetah or Tiger? I’d definitely plan to have a Grumman guru do a thorough pre-buy, and I’ve heard it’s recommended to let one do the annual every few years instead of your local A&P. There’s a company called True Flight Aerospace in Valdosta Ga that is not far from me but I don’t know anything about them.
Performance-wise I understand they cruise fairly fast for their horsepower but have considerably longer takeoff/landing rolls than the Cessna/Pipers. They also have rather poor climb performance, especially near gross weight. I read a post stating that from an owner that his Tiger cruised well at around 10k feet, but it took so long to get up there that unless he was on a very long X/C that it just wasn’t worth it.
I have a PPL and am just looking to enjoy owning an airplane. I’m not looking to build time, though hopefully I’d fly every chance I get. I’m just looking to enjoy flying, whether it’s buzzing around locally, getting $100 hamburgers and the occasional long-distance X/C.
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