How come Bulgaria was the only South Slavic country that didn’t join Yugoslavia? Did Bulgaria ever come close to joining it?
Posted by Substratas@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 105 comments
1970ivan@reddit
The Yugoslav project meant to encompass both Bulgaria and Albania in it's form, sorta like a Balkan union (there are many things that are unknown about it due to the propaganda of our "neighbors" that broke off).
There were a lot of theories about Yugoslavia from the late 19th century onwards, eventually the conflict broke it 2 times.
If we are talking about "what ifs" adding just Bulgaria would have made the wars either a lot more bloody or it would make Yugoslavia more stable (a triangle of interests instead of Serbo-Croat duality conflict). If you add Albania too I think it only gets messier because everyone would be fighting for theirs instead of looking at ways to make it work.
The idea was good but we Serbs paid a huge huge price for it to the point that many say 1918 was our biggest mistake in history that we are still paying to this day.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Balkan union? But including an Alpine country? How is that a balkan union? And why would it be called Yugoslavia with Albania in it?
Nothing_Special_23@reddit
Do you... even know anything about Balkan history?
Yugoslavia wasn't a union of countries joining, lol. It was teritorries the Kingdom of Serbia won in many wars it lead from 1912 to 1918. Before Yugoslavia, the only 2 countries of former Yugoslavia that existed as independent were the Kingdom of Serbia and the Kingdom of Montenegro. All the rest were provinces in either Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungary (which was an Austrian Empire in practice). So the only union we can discuss here is that of the Kingdom of Serbia and the Kingdom of Montenegro... and even that is still the topic of (often heated) debates by historians weather was it a union or Serbian annexation by force.
Kingdom of Bulgaria existed as an independent kingdom before 1912 alongside Serbia and Montenegro. It lead it's policies that affected the Balkan Peninsula and perhaps the entire European continent. Bulgaria, even after loosing WW1 to Serbia, was never occupied by Serbia and instead only lost small chunks of border teritories.
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
This isn’t just Balkan history lol this is EUROPEAN history.
Viridis-ad-rubeum@reddit
You're forgetting the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.
shockfella@reddit
Because they were bangaranga
Privateer_Lev_Arris@reddit
fucking hell i was trying to get the song out of my head
jaunmilijej@reddit
BANGARANGA
jaunmilijej@reddit
I love how every time Bulgaria is mentioned you’ll read BANGARANGA somewhere now 😭
spicygayunicorn@reddit
Its just to catchy, they should make it the tourist slogan for a year
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Because they’re ICONIC!!! 👑
Archivist2016@reddit
Yugoslavia was essentially a compromise. The Kingdom of Serbia, whom upon being on the victorious side of WW1, found itself with a lot of Bosniaks, Croats and Slovenes with its new territories (not to mention the pre existing Albanians and Macedonians).
So as to not lose these lands from rebellions, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes came to be. Bulgaria meanwhile manage to retain a lot of its territories despite being on the losing side, and most importantly to your question, didn't fall under Serbian hegemony.
They (alongside Montenegro) went on to become Yugoslavia, and since Bulgaria wasn't apart of the aforementioned Kingdom it didn't end up being (nor wanted to be) a part of Yugoslavia.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
neither were the people in Yugoslavia ever under Serbian hegemony. You know Tito was a Croat/Slovene Dictator. His policies (weak Serbia strong Shitoslavia) make sense when you consider he was literally fighting against Serbia in WW1.
pramadanov@reddit
The alcoholic Georgi Dimitrov came this close to gifting the country to the serbs, thank god Stalin and Tito had a falling out.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
We were about to... Then Tito and Stalin broke off. I would say for the better, because imagine the scale of the war in the 90s otherwise. Actually we and the Serbs would have started an internal power struggle almost immidielty imho.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Wait - was Bulgaria under Stalin’s influence??? I always thought the Soviet didn’t reach the Balkans…
walleryana@reddit
Bulgaria wasn't a Soviet Republic (although it tried twice, the Kremlin shot down both attempts), but it was hardline communist and arguably, the biggest bootlicker among the entire Warsaw pact.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Kremlin did Bulgaria a favour! Look where you’re at today 📈
https://i.redd.it/yj4jmhbl9j2h1.gif
dwartbg9@reddit
Jokes aside, this is correct, in some way. If we actually became a USSR republic we would've tanked even deeper in the 90s, and also would've lost so much of our identity, definitely the Russians would've tried to brainwash us even more and we would've probably had people that could only speak Russian, which sounds insane... And we would've become something like Moldova or Belarus.
Albeit it could've been the opposite - see what happened with the Baltic countries, all of them were part of the USSR and they're all more developed in most aspects than Bulgaria currently.
Township_Roller@reddit
Yes, but they never gave up on their control. They just shot down the suggestion, because they couldn't handle it at that moment, and because they wanted more buffer states between themselves and the west.
Grenagar@reddit
Bulgaria even was close to join ussr as 16th republic
Desperate_Day_5416@reddit
There is even a saying in Russian «Курица не птица, Болгария не заграница» "A chicken is not a bird, Bulgaria is not abroad."
Substratas@reddit (OP)
https://i.redd.it/8a0i4edbaj2h1.gif
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Stalin was our last golden parachute during the end of WW2.
Our state security did everything in their power to appeal to Germany which held us at gun point, beef with Churchil who was deemed as an sterile outside threat, and not piss off Stalin who was deemed as an imminent outside threat once Germany was about to get confronted with reality yet again.
At 1944 it became apparent that the Allies would undergo a bitter split, and Britain was about to call the shots on how the Balkans would look like from US account.
Township_Roller@reddit
Oh boy, if only... The Soviets "liberated" Bulgaria a few days after it had already surrendered, murdered the intelligentia and installed a puppet regime that ruled for 45 years. 😞
Dimo145@reddit
one could argue that their regime is still there, only through their grandchildren and their kids that rebranded themselves as democracy lovers, and now are the mafia state. (I wonder why none of our 90s rich guys ever share how they got so rich)
Township_Roller@reddit
True, But they do not hold the power now, unless they get elected, which they just did, but oh well...
bljuva57@reddit
Man you really have to read up on your history.
bate_Vladi_1904@reddit
I guess you're kind of joking - Stalin installed in Bulgaria directly one of the worst soviet agents (Georgi Dimitrov), who ran the bloodiest massacre in 1944-46. More or less the whole nation elite was completely erased (unclear how many, but for sure minimum 30000 killed by the communists).
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
Haha, dude....
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
It was often called the most loyal soviet satellite state, or more soviet than the Soviets themselves. We also kept mirroring all of their policies to the very end.
Hot_Distribution_131@reddit
This was one of the problems. Bulgarians wanted to be equal to the whole of Yugoslavia, but Serbia wanted to divide them in a couple of provinces and to stay the most influential.
Adorable-Ad-1180@reddit
Serbia was hardly the most influential in Yugo during Tito era, that goes to Croatia, but once Tito died Serbs moved to take control and big time at that, and that was not taken kindly by the other republics (especially Croatia, but also Bosnia, Slovenia and Kosovo (a republican in all but name pretty much).
fk_censors@reddit
Genuinely, what's the difference between Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Montenegrins? Can you tell each other apart from looks? What about clothes? What about accent? Assuming you don't see which place of worship one enters or what alphabet one uses. Just from interacting with someone on the street. I'm genuinely curious. How can you tell each other apart? Maybe the names?
CroatInAKilt@reddit
Accent is the answer. Very distinct accents all throughout former yugoslavia.
If a guy sounds like:
- uptight fast-talking businessman: Croatia proper.
- a medieval peasant: Dalmatian.
- a village yokel: Bosnian.
- a very excited village yokel: Herzegovina.
- a relaxed stoner: Serbian.
- albanian: Kosovar.
- forest peasant: Montenegro.
- assorted howls and yelps: North Macedonian
cesam1ne@reddit
Lol, nice
Used_Sea_8880@reddit
this is so accurate lmao
RebootAndPray@reddit
Accent and names/surnames mostly but even that doesn't mean much. Like, you can easily hear if someone is from Bosnia for example. But are they Bosnian Muslim, Serb or Croat? No idea until you hear the name. But even the name sometimes doesn't help. I just looked at 20 most common Croatian surnames. 15 of these are perfectly common in Serbia as well and no one would think of them as Croatian. Montenegro is even more difficult, you sometimes have a single family, one brother identifies as Montenegrin, other as Serbian.
silentmarrow@reddit
Accents and names, that’s it
markom457@reddit
Names and accents mainly
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
You mean to tell me that in early Yugoslavia, Croatia was calling the shots? After the war, Ustashe and all that? I am surprised by that statement.
Lazy_Following3564@reddit
Actually, Serbs were really underrepresented in Yugoslavia..
delerium1state@reddit
Bullshit.they were placed on most important or unimportant position thru Croatia as CEOs or some sort of management.
Lazy_Following3564@reddit
Do you understand that mine and your statements can be true at the same time?
Beautiful-Walk48@reddit
Tito was croatian lol, its also probably why he went so hard to keep the tensions from ww2 down with his goli otok jail island. My mum (born 60s yugo/croatia) would tell me how great it was as a 1960-80s but she distinctly remembers also how hard the police were instructed to go on any one that would say anything against other people in the country.
Idk if hes calling the shots completely but he did make a huge effort to make sure the extremist groups weren't rising (which unfortunately blew up in the 90s anyway).
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
That is interesting. The Bulgarian perspective is what I wrote above -- Yugoslavia = Serbia. And yeah, It is know Tito was Croat, but he was never seen as somebody who somehow promotes Croatian interests.
Panceltic@reddit
His mother was Slovenian btw
Individual_Special18@reddit
Well the fact that Serbia was only republic in Yugoslavia that had its territory divided into provinces should be enough for u.Weak Serbia=strong Yugoslavia was the communist policy at the time,which is why no other republic got devised into provinces.
Beautiful-Walk48@reddit
There was another subreddit, the turks didnt know he was hahaha, thought it was funny 😂
exhiale@reddit
Both the Croats and the Serbs will tell you that each other were more privileged.
Go figure. Propaganda.
CardboardFire@reddit
Oh boy.... That must be the reason the majority of funds funneled to Belgrade.
Historical data says that throughout the life span of Yugoslavia, Serbs held 60-65% of administrative positions for most of the time, which was THE VERY REASON why the war broke out - those formerly in power couldn't cope with losing the power, tried to restore it with violence.
DownvoteEvangelist@reddit
Tito weakened both Serbia and Croatia in an effort to avoid Kingdom of Yugoslavia situation where infighting between Serbs and Croats destabilized the country. But even with that Serbs were overrepresented in military, communist party and security structures...
dwartbg9@reddit
Which is obviously absurd and pathetic, and would've never worked.
BluBolshevik@reddit
Serbia was already split into 4 states im pretty sure they were fine not being dominant especially with a Tito being a Croatian
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
Not only that, our people thought that they will actually be the top dogs, not Serbia.
dwartbg9@reddit
War in the 90s? That late?!
You mean war in the 60s? Obviously it would've been impossible for us to become sub-servient to Serbians, which were never a friendly nation to us. How would we let our capital become Belgrade? (Or how would a federation work with 2 capitals?)
Then the Serbs would've definitely tried to brainwash us, probably change the language (or vice-versa), this would've resulted in nuclear war hahahh
MMortein@reddit
It was close. Bulgaria wanted a union where it would be equal with the entire Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia wanted a union where Bulgaria would be equal with other Yugoslav republics, like Serbia and Croatia.
They couldn't find an agreement.
Dazzling-Session-181@reddit
Tito knew he would lose control of Yugoslavia. So he kept lowballing Bulgaria, whose communist party was very tight with Stalin and the Comintern before that. Bulgaria would have incorporated in its influence the Macedonians, and the Bulgarians of Eastern Serbia, which would have created a very strong power center away from Tito's heartland. He would have played a second fiddle in his own country.
DownvoteEvangelist@reddit
I doubt you truly understand the Chad that was Tito...
Dazzling-Session-181@reddit
Elaborate. What did I get wrong or omit?
DownvoteEvangelist@reddit
Tito's charisma and chadness, that dude would never play second fiddle to anyone.
He was too much for Hitler and Stalin, no way he couldn't handle Bulgaria...
Viridis-ad-rubeum@reddit
You've been fed anti-Yugoslav propaganda. Tito was in favor of a Balkan federation, Bulgaria included. He pushed for it without Soviet approval and without informing Stalin. He wanted Albania in, too, he also supported Greek communists in the Civil war despite the Stalin-Churchill agreement and generally refused to be a Soviet satellite. When Stalin called him out for him, he ignored him, so Stalin denounced him as a nationalist and a "heretic" and kicked him out of the Comintern. Bulgarian communists were Stalinists and played along, it wasn't Tito who backed out.
clueless_bassist@reddit
As a Macedonian with a strong Bulgarian heritage (thanks grandma, rest in peace), i for one am saddened that Bulgaria was not made part of Yugoslavia. That way, likely, we would have retained our Bulgarian identity and would have gravitated more towards Sofia as a center of influence than Belgrade. Alas, that fell through and now we have this artificial country, with a made up history which is a source of tension and conflict in the region.
Sorry for going off on a tangent - it still hurts 🤷♂️
Similar_Parking_1295@reddit
Bulgaria was not cool enough. Real boring country and people
haikusbot@reddit
Bulgaria was
Not cool enough. Real boring
Country and people
- Similar_Parking_1295
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^Learn more about me.
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Similar_Parking_1295@reddit
Eat shit bot
dinozavarr@reddit
It was on the table until Tito realised that Serbians will be a minority if Bulgaria joined. Then he demanded to split Bulgarians in to two groups and that didn’t go trough. Thus a new nation was born in Yugoslavia…
Similar_Parking_1295@reddit
They weren’t cool enough
Equal_Factor_3362@reddit
Because Bangaranga.....its simple
eferalgan@reddit
Historical rivalry with Serbia and issues regarding Macedonia would have made joining impossible. Plus Bulgaria was one of the defeated nations of the WW2, was invaded and “liberated” by the Red Army, so after the war the Soviet Union Army troops stayed in Bulgaria and the German factories in Bulgaria were dismantled and sent to the Soviet Union.
On the other side, Yugoslavia wasn’t in the Soviet sphere of influence despite being communist. Didn’t have the Soviet army on their territory, because Tito asked them to leave. That was a real advantage for Yugoslavia - the living standard was much higher than in the Eastern block states, also their foreign policy was more independent.
MomcheMusic@reddit
Bulgaria was a separate empire from the other south slavic kingdoms. It would have never made sense for them to join Yugoslavia. Also these was the issues with who owns southern Serbia and Macedonia. Too long a story to post.
bate_Vladi_1904@reddit
Georgi Dimitrov has agreed to it - only the break-up of Stalin and Tito stopped it.
Lazy_Following3564@reddit
Nope.. Balkan Federation did not happen only because Stalin killed Georgi Dimitrov. Tito and Dimitrov were to make the Federation over Stalin..
Dazzling-Session-181@reddit
To be fair we need to note two thing of the Communist leader of Bulgaria back then:
Tito understood this. He had no winning move, but not to include Bulgaria in the union and to break off with Stalin and Bulgaria.
ZimnyKefir@reddit
Empire?
neverwalkalone7440@reddit
Bulgarians are not slavic?...
Lazy_Following3564@reddit
Balkan Federation had to be already agreed upon between Tito and Dimitrov... Stalin summoned both of them, but only Dimitrov went to meet with Stalin and mistiriosly died right after he came back to Bulgaria. I assume that if Tito went too, we would have two mistirious deads. There were also some shenanigans with forcibly making the people from the Prin Bulgaria region to identify themselves as Macedonians..
markohf12@reddit
Yugoslavia was built on an idea of pan-slavic unity and nation building, Bulgaria didn't needed that as they had good ol' nationalism and were already unified 50ish years prior.
Also Tito gave them a deal so bad it was considered laughable.
Repulsive_Work_226@reddit
who do you refer here? Turks? "wanted the people to the south who are genetically advantaged women pleasers"
Township_Roller@reddit
**doubt**
(they mean North Macedonians)
Repulsive_Work_226@reddit
oh I see ok!
Substratas@reddit (OP)
But how come the other South Slavic nations didn’t have the same level of nationalism / independence as Bulgaria?
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
I mean, it is not like the Serbs were not unified and had no nationalism. They did. I would argue Yugoslavia was, in reality, a 'Greater Serbia' project, and I think what happened in the 1990s proves it.
You have to remember that during the 30-ish years before the formation of Yugoslavia, we spent three wars fighting Serbia and losing all three. Then, an 'association process' started only because of pressure from Stalin, but as I said above, it died with the Stalin-Tito split. Not even the Bulgarian commies were that keen on the prospect. Not to mention that, according to what I have read, they kind of agreed in the first place only because we were occupied, but also because they thought Bulgaria, and not Serbia, would be the top dog in this new state.
markohf12@reddit
The first Yugoslavia was basically a political union of South-Slavs who lived under the Austro-Hungarian Empire (which were also Slovenes and Croats) and the Kingdom of Serbia.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
But we are not talking about it, aren't we? Any kind of discussion about Bulgaria joining could only be valid about the post 1945 period.
markohf12@reddit
There were also plans and ideas for Bulgaria to join after WW1 asfaik.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
I don't know whose plans were those, but they were not Bulgarian. There was no chance in hell we would have joined a Serbian-dominated state after what happened in WW1. Just Google Vlado Chernozemski if you are not already familiar with him.
JohnVonSpeedo@reddit
Maybe because half of the south-slavs were slaughtered during the world wars and had no reason for another bloody conflict.
deviendrais@reddit
I wish Bulgaria was this introspective before joining the Axis and occupying Yugoslavia
Substratas@reddit (OP)
https://i.redd.it/t55xflgb9j2h1.gif
_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit
Maybe they are just better than us, the nationalistic Bulgarians.
Beneficial_Ad_5157@reddit
They did thats exactly why Yugoslavia fell, it’s just that Tito was able to suppress it and the country was rich so people didn’t care. Then he died and the country became poor.
Dazzling-Session-181@reddit
Our communists were pure Stalinists and Comintern people. Dimitrov, Kolarov, Chervenkov were so powerful that they would have taken swept Tito's rug of power right under him. That is why he kept lowballing them and broke off with them and Stalin. Also you guys and the Bulgarians of Eastern Serbia together with Bugaria would have been equal to the rest of Yugoslavia as power. So that was a big no-no in Tito's book.
morbihann@reddit
Because then Yugoslavia will not be dominated by a single country and the shitshow would be even greater.
bljuva57@reddit
Tito wanted to create a stronger bond with them but uncle Joe said no and then they had this whole curfuffle.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Who is uncle Joe in this case?
bljuva57@reddit
The moustachy massmurdery one
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I was eviscerated in this sub once for asking who Tito is, so I’m afraid to ask now about who the person you’re referring to as uncle Joe, is…
oblivion_mike@reddit
Tito almost convinced Enver Hoxha, for Albania to join as well. Their OZNA secret service practically put him in power. Later on, reinforced by UDBA.
Hindsight 20/20. Knowing how the Yugoslav 80s-90s conundrum was triggered from (Serb minority in Kosovo).
As an Albanian I can’t even contemplate the scale of the conflict that would have been.
Add Macedonia and Bulgaria to that conundrum. Gnarly stuff indeed
AnarchistRain@reddit
They were plans, but it got entirely shelved. The Bulgarian communist leadership wasnt enthusiastic from the start, but they were pushed by the Soviets, and were good little doggies.
Janosh_Poha@reddit
It never came close to a reality. There were issues between the Yugoslavs and the Bulgarians going back to as late as 1944. Yugoslavia originally wanted Bulgaria to be a 7th republic, but the Bulgarians wanted the country to be 2 republics, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, with Yugoslavia being made up of several autonomous regions. Bulgaria actually came closer to becoming a republic of the Soviet Union. Todor Zhivkov floated the idea several times with the Soviet leadership.
WillAndHonesty@reddit
There's two version of a story regarding this.
The first version is that Georgi Dimitrov suggested the unification to Stalin and pissed of Stalin so he died out of shame what he did in the airplane.
The second version is pretty much the same just adds a detail that it happened after eating that soup on the airplane.
After this Tito-Stalin relationship got very bad and the stalinists were sent to Goli Otok. Also Bulgaria - Yugoslavia relationships worsened and the people of Macedonia region in Bulgaria were no longer declared as Macedonian since there were supposed to be under the Dimitrov-Tito deal.
_nzatar@reddit
Macedonia
Substratas@reddit (OP)
?
bangobangohehehe@reddit
Слави?