I need a mid-drive, don't I?

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eowens8519@reddit

I recently bought a Velotric GoMad (hub drive) and live in a area with very steep hills and I also weigh 325 pounds. I haven’t had any issues on hills yet.

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Rattlingplates@reddit

If you have hills mid drive if it’s flat hub.

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stormdelta@reddit

The problem is that "hills" varies tremendously and there are plenty of hills a hub motor will have no issue with.

It's very steep gradients, or steepish long-distance gradients, that a hub struggles with.

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I have plenty of hills around my house and my hub drive is just fine at 750w nominal. Yes you have to shift and pedal some on the 13% grade but as it has a decent torque sensor it's not that different than riding the same hill on one of my acoustic bikes aside from the ease.

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Rattlingplates@reddit

Hill is very subjective.

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gaspig70@reddit

I live in the Seattle area where we have lots of options. No problems finding nearby training climbs aboard my acoustic bike.

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Rattlingplates@reddit

Omg acoustic bike is amazing

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Odd_Eggplant8019@reddit

hub drives keep working if your chain comes off. I've ridden both and while mid has better ride quality, because they are lower cost and have more bike options I usually get hub drive bikes.

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bloodycpownsuit@reddit

Not a zero percent chance, but pretty slim. I’ve only broken one chain in 50 years of hard bike riding. Just keep it lubed.

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stormdelta@reddit

The bigger issue is increased wear and slippage.

I've also personally had tons of problems with chains slipping under high torque in winter due to slush/ice getting on the chain.

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wlexxx2@reddit

hub only advantage is, it is way cheaper

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wlexxx2@reddit

hub drives have a lot of trouble starting on a hill TBH

i had one and if i had to stop on a hill, i would have to go back down and start over

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urtv@reddit

Any brand/model recommendations for mid drives?

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ancientstephanie@reddit

If you are in a place where power limits are lower than what it would take you to comfortably climb the hill with a hub motor, then yes, you need a mid drive.

Depending on the hill, a 250W, 500W, or even a 750W limit might be too restrictive for a hub motor to be a viable option. A mid-drive on the other hand, is really only limited by gearing - as long as you have the right gears, you can keep gearing down, pretty much all the way down to where the laws of physics make climbing the hill without ropes impossible. You might have to go a bit slower, but you'll maintain a speed which will get you up the hill eventually without feeling like you're going to fall over.

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stormdelta@reddit

As someone who loves hub drives, I would lean towards mid-drive because of the length of that gradient, though it's not a hard requirement.

Hubs can do 8-10% with enough power, especially a direct hub (inefficiently), but at 2km, the geared hub may risk overheating, and you'd need a lot of power to make the direct hub work for this + would want regen, neither of which are commonly available without DIY setups.

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CaterpillarKey6288@reddit

Because you can change gears a 500w mid drive will give you about 2x the power. Sence you are limited to 500w defently get a mid drive. Most 500w hub drives are not great on steeper hills. My 750w hub drive with a 90nm of torque will go up the steepest hill where I live but by the time I get to the top its below 15mph. Luckily for me there's only two steep hills where I live and can avoid them easily. Every else is almost totally flat.

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stormdelta@reddit

will give you about 2x the power

Nitpick, but you mean torque, not power.

The mid-drive's gearing gives you more options for trading speed for torque, but the total power is the same.

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Particular_Box_3598@reddit

This is probably the best answer. 500w on mid drive will do great on hills. 500w hub motor will be fairly weak.

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jnyc777@reddit

I’m biased to mid drives personally! I don’t like the weight of the rear hub motor especially in a suspension bike and a bigger motor. To be honest though, power means a lot. 500 watt mid drive or hub is still 500w. Find out what regulations you have in your area, and if things are changing soon! That would be the first place to look to guide you with your search for a bike I’d say ! Everywhere is being regulated or will be soon

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evaan-verlaine@reddit

I think you want to look for motor torque instead of/in conjunction with power. My 250w mid drive puts out 65Nm of torque, which is more than some hub drives with higher wattage! Would absolutely second getting a mid drive though, mine is great on hills.

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ballisticks@reddit (OP)

Is it just me or are there hardly any mid drives on the market? I'm looking at my local stores sites and like 95% of them are rear drive

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James-B0ndage@reddit

If you want middrive your best bet is to build your own.

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evaan-verlaine@reddit

They're more expensive so I can see a store stocking more hub drives for people who are budget conscious. I personally ride a Gazelle Medeo T10, I bought a dealer model from Upway at a heavily discounted price. If I hadn't found one for the same price as the hub motor bike I was considering I probably would've bought a bike with a hub motor.

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seams_easy_by_jerry@reddit

Have you ran into any problems with that bike? I just got one used with 700 miles on it, wondering if there’s anything I should watch out for.

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evaan-verlaine@reddit

Smooth sailing so far! I've put less than a hundred miles on it though so take that with a grain of salt.

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bloodycpownsuit@reddit

Here’s Bosch’s list of bike that use their motors, if that helps you compare.

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/ebikes/brands

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ArseneWainy@reddit

See if you can find a Cube powered by a Bosch, expensive but great quality

https://www.amegoev.com/products/cube-kathmandu-hybrid-exc-750-easy-entry-smart-system?variant=51747416736108

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Khutulun89@reddit

Rated Nm on mid drives to hub drives is not really comparable.

A bosch 120Nm mid drive will give you even more on a low gear but you can't be fast with that torque. If you change to a high gear to ride at higher speed you will have around 35Nm on the rear wheel. On a hub drive you just have what you have (with some efficiency loss at lower speeds). My 250w hub does 55Nm.

Still mid drives are much better at hills because you can use gears and can go slow.

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evaan-verlaine@reddit

That's neat, I didn't know that about mid vs hub drive torque! The combination of gearing down and upping the assist level has helped me make it up some steep hills, it was a great choice for my area. I'm glad my county built the bike trails it did but it didn't prioritize keeping them at a consistent elevation, the local geography doesn't help lol.

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ballisticks@reddit (OP)

Sadly we're limited to 500w here sadly.

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BoringBob84@reddit

500 Watts is a good amount of power when used efficiently. With hills and heavy riders, efficiency requires variable gears and mid-drive motors have them.

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elementarydeardata@reddit

I prefer a mid-drive, they feel more natural to pedal and I think that's what you should get, but you do need to consider the gearing. If your lowest available gear is greater than a 1:1 gear ratio, you won't experience the hill climbing advantage that people talk about with a mid-drive vs. a hub motor. If you see a mid-drive bike that you like and the gearing isn't less than 1:1, don't fret it's pretty cheap and easy to swap out for a bigger cassette so you can buzz up those hills no matter what you're carrying.

The fact that you can adjust this is one of the nice things about a mid-drive. When you change the gearing on a hub motor bike, it affects the mechanical advantage of your pedaling, but not of the motor, that will always be a 1:1 ratio.

Basically, mid-drives are great for a lot of reasons, but they're only better for climbing than a hub motor if your lowest gear is lower than a 1:1.

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James-B0ndage@reddit

It’s not the motor that makes it feel more natural. It’s the sensor. A torque sensor has the natural ride feel, a cadence sensor feels more like a moped.

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rabotat@reddit

Another thing that's not mentioned all that often is changing your tires. Much harder on hub drive, depending on how it's wired, but certainly harder. And it gives you weight in the wheels, where you least want weight.

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Sensitive_Paper2471@reddit

I have a mid drive personally but it pisses me off that I cant do regen braking downhill. Thats why maybe a hub is good for you. But uphill mid drive would be better....difficult question

maybe a mid drive with a hub motor on the front wheel for regen? (ok thats too far out I know)

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Then_Entertainment97@reddit

As a fellow engineer. I'm convinced that mid + front hub is the perfect set up for a touring ebike in hilly country. But as far as I can tell it would have to be a custom job, and I do that kind of stuff at work...

Regen doesn't do all that much for bicycles. There just isn't a huge amount of energy to harvest. I think it would be a lot easier to just hook the front hub up to a resistor and then you would at least have electric braking. Cooking friction brakes on a long hill is bad vibes.

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TwoWheel_Detective@reddit

A fellow engineer and I modified my bike to climb 20% hills.
Upgraded the rear geared hub to 1000w and added a 1000w
direct drive on the front, with regen braking.

The geared hub muscles up the hill, augmented by the direct drive
and the regen provides extra strong braking on the down slopes.
The front motor provides 50% of the load so both motors stay
cool and efficient. With no excessive loads being put on the drive
train, the chain lasts thousands of miles.

The front motor balances the bike from front to rear, evens tire
wear and makes steering more precise and improves handling.

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Then_Entertainment97@reddit

Did you get it set up with a single battery?

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TwoWheel_Detective@reddit

Yep. Single upgraded battery: UPP 52v 24ah

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Odd_Eggplant8019@reddit

very few bikes have regen capability except maybe some high end cargo bikes.(although you could diy as well with regen).

I think having your pedal powered gearing low enough for the hills is the important part. that and good brakes.

Hills tend to be either short so it doesn't take long to walk them, or longer hills are often mild grade.

rolling hills you can build up momentum pretty well so you only have to power up the very top.

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Sensitive_Paper2471@reddit

as an engineer it pisses me off to have hardware that can do the function but dont so yeah thats a pet peeve of mine

and your generalisation of hills not very accurate, i have lived in a place with long hills where there's an intersection right at the bottom of a long slope....I dont want to be going 60kph on my ebike there...

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mazarax@reddit

torque sensing mid-drive. Always.

Accept no substitute. Cadence sensor sucks.

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jacki4@reddit

I have no experience with hub drives, but I recently acquired my first e-bike with the Bosch Performance Line (75nm) mid drive.

I live in a city that’s in a valley as well, and I absolutely love the mid drive on my bike. I have no issues going up steep hills that peak at around 12% grade. I barely need to put any real effort into the pedals, as long as I’m okay with a relatively low speed (probably around 8-10 mph) and in first gear (Shimano Nexus 5 gear).

I weigh around 210 lbs. Then add another ~10-15 lbs on top of that for my clothes and backpack.

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Bored2001@reddit

10% can be handled by some stronger hub motors. But some states are nerfing ebikes.

Mid drives are the way to go if you want a 'bike' anyhow.

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Few-Helicopter-2943@reddit

Copied this from myself from another post asking the same question.

It depends. I have three different ebikes, for different uses. My mountain bike is mid, like most higher end ebikes. There's no way I'd want a hub eMTB. My cargo bike is hub, and that's a good choice for it. It would be ok as a mid, but there's a potentially big downside - my third bike is a mid fat tire, and here is where I run into an issue - the drivetrain is on the cheaper side, it's a Shimano Altus 9 speed. Since I mostly ride it on the road, I tend to be in the highest gear most of the time, and that 9th gear 11T cog wears out FAST. I ended up ordering a bunch of them through one of the Chinese apps for a buck apiece, they last about as long as the ones from Amazon that run 15 bucks. I don't have this issue with the mtb for two reasons, first, the mid fat tire is more powerful, something like 160nm vs 85nm on the mtb, and second, the mtb drivetrain is much higher quality, and it really matters. With a hub motor, it's not putting any wear on the drivetrain, it's just you pedaling. With a mid, it's you PLUS the motor, and you can snap a chain that way pretty easily. I have to think of the fat tire as like driving a big truck; use the gears all the way up, and don't accelerate too much in the top gear. That's for crusing once you've accelerated up to speed.

You definitely want a torque sensor, as someone else said, regardless of hub or mid. There are some bikes that are switchable between torque and cadence, but torque is far superior.

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Ur-in-a-tor@reddit

I haven't met a climb that would be any sort of a problem to me (a 15kg e bike with 250W 54Nm rear hub motor with the torque sensor).

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No_ego_@reddit

My mid smashes this elevation to the Ourimbah trailhead. Its approximately what you’ve described. I’m riding the Bosch Performance Line CX. Im only 80kg, but seriously when I say it smashed it I mean you could ride it on 1 leg in turbo mode.

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Killed_By_Covid@reddit

With those numbers (weight and described hill), the only only hub motor I would use would have to be a beefy unit with at least a 12T winding. Not much out there like that. Although I love hub motors for commuting and road riding, a mid-drive would be the best fit for this job. Just gear it down and don't hammer it going up the hill.

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JG-at-Prime@reddit

Yes, for that situation I would recommend a mid-drive. You might be able to get by with a beefy geared hub motor.

Hub motors tend to struggle with hills and they use a lot of energy to climb up hills but they can do it.

The catch with the mid drives is that they tend to require more maintenance than hub motors. A new chain and new sprocket will be annual events for a daily driver.

It’s important to stay on top of chain cleaning and lubrication because the chain transmits all the power of the motor to the rear wheel.

I recommend having a couple of extra chains for it. (it’s super helpful if you wax to rotate chains) have plenty of master links in your emergency tool kit.

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tantalor@reddit

Mid drive, no regrets

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doublereverse@reddit

You know, I’m glad to see this question. It seems like so many people jump to mid-drive the moment anyone mentions hills of any kind but hub drives can handle a decent bit. I can say we’ve got two riders on Aventon hub drive bikes and we weigh in the 130-170lb range. We ride up and down moderately steep hills of that grade, no problem. But the longest hill was maybe 1/2k sustained I’d guess. It’s enough that a lot of people would be just fine with similar bones.

With your specific situation though? Hard to say- we weigh less and haven’t done as long of a steep ride, but… there’s a chance. I am very interested to learn more about what what the real cutoff is for when you really, really need a mid-drive. Given the cost difference, this would be very useful information for a lot of people.

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SwiftUnban@reddit

you can definitely do hills with both, unless you have like a 250w hub drive with a heavy rider.

I think after a certain point it just comes down to efficiency. You can definitely go up hill pretty quick but you’ll be dumping more power to compensate for what you don’t have in gear reduction.

So if you’re in an insanely hilly area it might be worth to checkout a mid drive for the efficiency. I would just full send up hills on my fat tire hub. That thing was inefficient as fuck but with 50ah I could get pretty far.

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sentinel_of_ether@reddit

Mid drive just means “super heavy bike” or “light but super expensive” bike.

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Ohm_Slaw_@reddit

You are definitely a mid drive person.

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Zentransit@reddit

You can't beat a Tern!

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NightKnown405@reddit

I am very happy with my mid drive on my Tech Electra. There are a number of hills here and I tried a couple different bikes before I made my choice. Being able to shift the derailer and getting the additional benefit that the motor's applied torque enjoys that same benefit was very noticeable to me.

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ellipticorbit@reddit

Lots of experience with both, would definitely recommend a mid-drive for your situation.

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ballisticks@reddit (OP)

Yea I concur, thanks 👍