Unusual or Interesting Approach Plate Examples
Posted by majicbaby@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 50 comments
Hello Aviators!
Recently a student stated that all RNAV approaches were GPS approaches, so why use the RNAV designation. I corrected him that there are also RNP approaches that fall under the RNAV designation, but I couldn’t quickly pull up a plate as an example.
That got me thinking that I should keep a binder of good examples of “unusual” approach plates. My hope is to provide teaching moments by showing students they can’t just phone in their approach briefs.
So to the CFII’s & instrument pilots out there: share some examples of unique, unusual and downright goofy instrument approach plates you’ve seen!
Give me backcourses, circling approaches with a course lined up to a runway, oddball missed approach instructions, multiple turns in the approach course, or any other “gotcha” plates I can use to get my students thinking outside of “normal”.
No-Foundation-8034@reddit
Airport Proc Name KIWA ILS or LOC 30C KBFI ILS or LOC 14R KYKM LOC/DME BC-B KJFK RNAV Z 13L KMTN VOR or TACAN 15 KWAL TACAN 10 KSQL RNAV Z 30 KWVI VOR-A KCCR VOR 19R
didsomebodysaywander@reddit
I fly in the area, what is it about KSQL that strikes you as weird?
KWVI airspace is a shitshow and one of the worst places to do practice approaches in the Bay Area - its so crowded and I'm surprised we haven't had a serious incident yet. I suspect
KCCR VOR 19R I've only done in the sim, and the turn at the FAF is annoying, as is the offset to Rwy19R, but otherwise it's pretty straightforward and luckily prevailing winds favor 32L / 32R. The current TFR over the port has been a PITA also for real-life ops.
AlbiMappaMundi@reddit
Yep, I’ll only do practice approaches into KWVI in the evening/night. No way you’d find me doing the VOR-A on a normal weekend day.
TxAggieMike@reddit
PVU ILS 13
EWR RNAV W 29 — just watch out for bakery vehicles
jewishmechanic@reddit
3 red and one bread
DatSexyDude@reddit
Provo bc of the RNAV fixes on the ILS apr?
swakid8@reddit
Naw, I don’t find RNAV W 29 to be weird and unusual…
redditburner_5000@reddit
KASE LOC DME-E is interesting. Missed to a secondary LOC BC. Check out the minimums.
KEGE is an LDA (offset LOC).
KLAA has great VOR circling approaches if you want to throw one of those at your student. I've actually done those on the job.
MiniTab@reddit
Also look at the LINDZ departure. One of the only ones to have an immediate turn, and ASE departure WILL yell at you if you don’t turn immediately.
CharlieFoxtrot000@reddit
The LOC DME-E at ASE is a really good opportunity to open a discussion about which way to rotate an HSI to correctly sense a localizer back course.
LearningDumbThings@reddit
As well as a discussion about “just because it’s legal doesn’t always mean it’s smart to fly this approach today.”
Jaimebgdb@reddit
That's not true. RNAV doesn't necessarilly imply GPS. It doesn't even imply the broader GNSS.
Unusual in what sense? There's loads of things that can be "unusual".
Off the top of my head:
- Pisa, Italy, ILS 03R: The missed apporach altitude is lower than the glide-slope intercept altitude, meaning you could theoretically do a "go around" but continue descending.
- Marseille, France, RNP Z 31R: The final approach course intercept point and the descent point are the same point, meaning you turn and start descending into final approach at the same time.
- East Midlands, UK, RNAV transition to all runways: there's a weird holding pattern over PIGOT which is pointed in the "wrong" direction and which is exited from the outbound leg.
Goop290@reddit
Yeah so much hate on inertial and dme to dme rnav these days
trying_to_adult_here@reddit
Yeah but then I have to go in and read all the domestic center NOTAMs to make sure the DMEs are all actually working today.
Goop290@reddit
Ha! Yeah but I still gotta read them for waas outages and gps spoofing
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
LPMA RNP Z 05 has a curved approach path and a curved missed approach. The approach has to be flown accurately to avoid a terrain warning during the base/final turn. This is also the only airport I've seen that comes with wind limitations on the approach plate. A special qualification from the Portuguese authorities is required to operate here.
Mithster18@reddit
Any of the RNP approaches into NZQN, and one of the VOR/DME's into NZWB
AdBest2704@reddit
VOR DME RWY15 KMTN
Biker1124@reddit
I need to start a drinking game with how much this approach is mentioned albeit with good reason
MachJesusAndCelerior@reddit
Got to fly this one during instrument training on raw data (no gps in lieu, just old school narco DME box and 2 nav radios) and boy, was it fun. If I remember right, they also had a taxiway aligned with the runway (AIM 2-3-3 Fig. 2-3-3 for those unfamiliar). What a fascinating airport and great for training unfamiliar scenarios!
MLZ005@reddit
How did I know this one would be commented lol that’s my home airport
Flavortown42069@reddit
Holy shit that’s a weird one!
FlyingShadow1@reddit
You don't need to pull up a plate. Just look in the AIM.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap1_section_2.html
RNAV has GPS, DME/DME, VOR/DME, and INS. Now granted if you're in an airplane with INS that is almost certainly not going to be the primary method of navigation and if you're navigating on that then shit has probably hit the fan.
DME/DME is the most realistic thing you'd come across but I have yet to fly in an airplane with a DME/DME unit that was working. But I have seen them! They're very old and when they were really on the market they weren't there for long because GPS units started coming out some years later in the 90s and then Garmin released the 430/530 in the mid 90s which destroyed every competitor at the time (except Apollo because they made the first WAAS antenna).
trying_to_adult_here@reddit
You can cross the Atlantic on the NAT tracks with just two working INS systems. We have flights that get GPS jammed sometimes flying over the Middle East. The jamming ends before the crossing and crews can reset the system over Europe before getting out over the water but it was a training item that two INS systems fulfill the two independent long range navigational systems requirement and flights don’t have to divert or even automatically fly below the tracks if they get jammed over the Middle East.
FlyingShadow1@reddit
So question, I was under the impression that if you're flying in an area where GPS would be jammed/spoofed that your RNAV units would be capable of connecting to Galileo or Glonass and all "should" be fine.
That said are your flights regularly navigating on INS? I thought such instances would be rare.
Imaginary_Amoeba3461@reddit
I don’t know of any certified avionics that can use Galileo or Glosnass. There might be some exception by now but a 20 year old airliner won’t have it. GPS only.
I only fly domestic but during GPS jamming a FMS switches from GPS to a DME/DME + IRS mode. Some do this better than others. If you’re over the ocean there’s no ground based radio nav so you’d just get IRS.
BozoThePilot@reddit
I've flown a piston twin through the middle east before and I did have that Garmin GLONASS receiver he is referring to. You can connect to it via Bluetooth.
I did connect to it with my wifi only iPad and it worked. However, I don't think there was a way to connect it to the Garmin 750 directly.
I was told that if my iPad was connected to the flight stream 510 on that Garmin 750 it would send my connected GLONASS satellite info to the 750 however I doubt that because I've never heard of flight stream being used to receive nav data from an external device.
randombrain@reddit
I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing that if you're building a jamming device that overpowers signals on the GPS frequency band it isn't a lot of extra effort to also make it work on the GLONASS/BeiDou/Galileo bands.
trying_to_adult_here@reddit
I don’t know very much about the mechanics/physics of GPS jamming, so I don’t really know if some systems can connect to a backup system if the primary system is the one being jammed. Maybe the military can? I don’t dispatch military flights, I work for a US airline that operates a couple of flights to the Middle East or through the Middle East to India. Our crews turn the GPS off when jamming is suspected and use INS and ground-based navaids instead. It’s usually happening in the Middle East, which is over land so there are ground-based navaids there. There just aren’t ground-based navaids over the Atlantic.
It is unusual to be operating on just INS navigation, the GPS spoofing before an Atlantic crossing is the only example I can think of where we do it regularly. We wouldn’t normally dispatch an aircraft without GPS capability out of the US/overwater, it would be kept on domestic routing (with ground-based navaids available) until fixed. Hopefully fixed quickly. If it broke at an outstation we would limp it home with GPS on MEL but we wouldn’t sent it overseas that way. But using only INS isn’t a dire situation that means you’re in trouble either.
We do occasionally fly planes that are not GPS capable domestically, it’s just a pain in the ass. But they’re not INS only, they get planned to ensure that all the ground-based navaids are available and operable. But keeping VORs operable isn’t a priority lately, hence it’s a PITA for the dispatcher.
Mydogsblackasshole@reddit
And then Garmin acquired the Apollo line
FlyingShadow1@reddit
Specifically because they could not figure out how to make their own WAAS antenna worked! Also Apollo had some financial difficulties, people did not like how "clunky" the CNX-80 is but my friend tells me that the unit does things that even the latest Garmin units can not do.
Goop290@reddit
Also rnav vs rnp. Rnav does not require it to tell you it is unreliable where as and does. Also in the aim
ShakenBakeist@reddit
KTOP rwy 31 LOC from CEBAP
Puzzleheaded_Ad5033@reddit
HI-ILS Y 21 into KROW (aka the widowmaker)
RO1984@reddit
It's gone :(
Ok-Film-4914@reddit
ILS 32 KDHN, lots to look at on that plate
bobnuthead@reddit
KBFI ILS 14R - missed approach descent
KAST ILS 16 - what do you do if you lose the glideslope?
KAST RNAV 8 - while we’re at this airport how do you feel about this one in a single engine piston?
KYKM LOC-DME BC-B - descent angle, LOC BC discussion. How do you want to circle?
Ramrod489@reddit
GPS is really only GPS on American receivers, everything else is just sparkling GNSS.
raidriar889@reddit
Th VOR rwy 15 into KMTN is a pretty interesting approach where the DME arc is also the final approach
cephalopod11@reddit
The missed approach is also a DIFFERENT DME arc.
Icy-Bar-9712@reddit
To a radial intercept off of a different VOR for the hold.
flightist@reddit
Instrument students hate to see it coming
Rich_Mahogany@reddit
Wild
RaiderAce5974@reddit
How about the moon!
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/s/HA3uHVT3fC
ThatLooksRight@reddit
No way. We landed on the moon!
brodie34mills@reddit
If you’re a fan of Dumb and Dumber, check out the arrivals into Aspen. Stuff of legend, right there.
majicbaby@reddit (OP)
I am a huge fan of Dumb & Dumber
peyoteman47@reddit
RNAV (GPS) - D into KMFR. Circling only, but lined up with RWY 32
RubberChickenFarm@reddit
Take a look at KSUN and KEAT. SUN has an NDB/DME approach. The RNAV's have to deal with the fact that the airport is at the end of a box canyon. EAT has a lot of terrain and it has a couple interesting RNP approaches. Good opportunity there to make sure they understand what "Authorization Required" means.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hello Aviators!
Recently a student stated that all RNAV approaches were GPS approaches, so why use the RNAV designation. I corrected him that there are also RNP approaches that fall under the RNAV designation, but I couldn’t quickly pull up a plate as an example.
That got me thinking that I should keep a binder of good examples of “unusual” approach plates. My hope is to provide teaching moments by showing students they can’t just phone in their approach briefs.
So to the CFII’s & instrument pilots out there: share some examples of unique, unusual and downright goofy instrument approach plates you’ve seen!
Give me backcourses, circling approaches with a course lined up to a runway, oddball missed approach instructions, multiple turns in the approach course, or any other “gotcha” plates I can use to get my students thinking outside of “normal”.
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