are there any "4th level" distros?

Debian allows you to install a handful of DEs and it's just one Debian. Other distros do too. We consider those single distros even if one DE is considered the main one.

Kubuntu is an official Ubuntu flavor. The DE is definitely the biggest difference and they're otherwise very similar. https://ubuntu.com/desktop/flavors

The history of the flavors is a bit more complicated than the Debian example, though.

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Infinity-of-Thoughts@reddit

You can definitely argue this both ways.

Honestly, not really. Kubuntu is an official Ubuntu flavour, and everything Kubuntu ships is from the Ubuntu repositories. Which is, I believe, one of the requirements to be considered as an official flavour.

There's no underlying differences between Kubuntu and Ubuntu, aside from the desktop. Everything Kubuntu depends on, is shipped in the official repositories, no need 3rd party repositories.

What can be argued both ways is something like elementaryOS. Seeing as they make no fundamental changes to the Ubuntu base, except for removing snaps, they still use PPAs for their desktop environment.

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SpaceCadet2000@reddit

Different repositories.

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Mr_Lumbergh@reddit

A different DE on the same distro isn’t a layer, it’s just a different DE.

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Misaelz@reddit

I think is impossible to set a borderline but, "many" changes, not just the desktop

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MaybeStopIt3103@reddit

Isn't Kubuntu deprived of snaps ? That in itself is already a pretty big change

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UnexceptionalAnon@reddit

It is the exact same as Ubuntu in terms of Snaps.

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promeritum@reddit

Are you saying Kubuntu is just Ubuntu wearing a wig?

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somatt@reddit

Hannah Montana tho

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MorallyDeplorable@reddit

Kubuntu isn't a derivative of ubuntu.

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No-Camera-720@reddit

https://youtube.com/shorts/UWYd9HrQsSg?si=sxtfHikCZqnSIAmx

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ImNotABotScoutsHonor@reddit

Clean, non-shorts link:

https://youtu.be/UWYd9HrQsSg

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Gabochuky@reddit

I don't know why, but this question made me ask myself why are there no distros based on OpenSuse?

Weird huh?

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FryBoyter@reddit

SUSE and openSUSE have actually always been distributions used mostly in Europe, particularly in Germany. For example, I’ve dealt with Linux users from the U.S. who had never even heard of SUSE or openSUSE.

That’s probably the main reason why there are relatively few distributions based on SUSE / openSUSE.

Another possible reason could be that SUSE / openSUSE is so perfect that no one sees the point in creating a distribution based on it. ;-)

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alonjit@reddit

And, for the longest time, SUSE was a paid distro. openSUSE (and now Thumbleweed) is a relatively recent addition.

Back in 98-99 had a friend for whom work bought him SUSE. RH was free back then, so ...

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troyunrau@reddit

There was always a free version, even back in the 90s (often shipped on CDs with Linux magazines or books). The paid version came with support contracts and some proprietary software. They changed parent companies a few times, the most interesting of which was Novell's ownership: the management at that time almost fucked it, but the dev team has always been top tier even through that era.

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CHAOSHACKER@reddit

I didn’t know that OpenSuse is a 1st level distro. TIL

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jloc0@reddit

Aeon is based on suse.

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sudogaeshi@reddit

Gecko?

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beefsack@reddit

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=family-tree

There are some interesting examples there. A 5th order relationship is:

debian > knoppix > damnsmall > feather > featherweight

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Mission-Sea8333@reddit

There are some surprisingly deep distro chains out there, but after a few layers the distinction is usually branding, defaults, and package choices rather than major technical differences. At some point you're still running the same kernel and repositories underneath, just with a different coat of paint and a different target audience.

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Appropriate_Rent_243@reddit (OP)

When your distro is just a desktop environment

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Mission-Sea8333@reddit

It's always funny to trace the family tree and realize a distro is essentially built on a distro that's built on a distro that's built on Debian.

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Appropriate_Rent_243@reddit (OP)

Literally the biggest family is debian

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ChocolateDonut36@reddit

I think LXLE Linux is 4th level, lubuntu→ubuntu→debian

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daemonpenguin@reddit

You can do searches for this kind of thing on places like Wikipedia and DistroWatch. There are at least nine distros based on Mint, making them fourth level distros:

https://distrowatch.com/search.php

There are some projects based on AlmaLinux OS which is based on Red Hat, which pulls from CentOS, which is based on Fedora, so that would likely qualify.

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USSPlanck@reddit

I think that would not qualify because RHEL, CentOS and Fedora are parallel interconnected developments, nor derivatives of one another

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dinosaursdied@reddit

The farther distributions get from the base, the more they seem be superficial changes. They ship a different DE and maybe a couple additional features and packages. I imagine it's advantageous to work with Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, or Arch as the base. There's less moving parts and probably a better slate to build the developers vision.

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OnlyEntrepreneur4760@reddit

This makes my head spin

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dinosaursdied@reddit

Are distros like pop and mint spins? Sure they do offer some different features, but most of it is in the DE.

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RenlyHoekster@reddit

Pop!_OS isn't "just" a spin because System7 created their own entirely new desktop environment (COSMIC). The rest of the OS being rather much Ubuntu. Since COSMIC is however now a DE that is available on Fedora, Arch, or anywhere else as well, and the inverse being true you could also just run for example KDE on Pop!_OS too, then perhaps the lines are blurred now.

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boar-b-que@reddit

I'm not as experienced with Pop, but Mint makes some pretty sweeping changes to the way the Ubuntu base is set up.

Mint, of course, primarily serves as a showcase for Cinnamon DE, Nemo file manager, and the other in-house apps developed by Clem and friends. However, it also removes a lot of the idiocy and ... for lack of a better word 'Lock in' stuff that Ubuntu does. Snapd isn't installed by default, although it can be. IIRC Flatpak is enabled by default on more recent versions.

Mint Debian Edition goes the extra mile and rebases directly against the grandma OS. It requires a bit more setup to get it to behave just as you want it to. That development experience lets Mr. Lefèbvre and his cohorts develop something a bit freer than Ubuntu has become.

Please note that Ubuntu is still a perfectly fine FOSS Operating system. I just feel like the decisions made in past years have been to its detriment.

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Jean_Luc_Lesmouches@reddit

Snapd isn't installed by default, although it can be. IIRC Flatpak is enabled by default on more recent versions.

It does a bit more than that: many packages where Ubuntu forces you to use snap are reintroduced as .deb

Please note that Ubuntu is still a perfectly fine FOSS Operating system. I just feel like the decisions made in past years have been to its detriment.

That is downplaying what happened:

They didn't just push their Amazon partnership on users. Everything you typed in the app menu was sent to Amazon. This was not advertised and had to be discovered by users, only then did they add an opt-out. And even then you had to know about it too too search for it, if you were not actively involved in the online Linux community you wouldn't be aware of it because Ubuntu itself certainly never told you about it.
They tried to push all distros to use snap as a standard despite the fact that the snap server is closed and under the complete control of Canonical. People like to complain about Flathub's monopoly, but that's a monopoly born out of convenience: anyone can manage their own flatpack server. With snap that monopoly is baked in and enforced.

The problem is not the Ubuntu had some unwanted features once, it's that the features were actively hostile to the FOSS philosophy and ecosystem as a whole. It's not just about the features themselves: the mere fact that they were able to come up with these ideas shows they should never be trusted.

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dinosaursdied@reddit

Those are big user space changes but as far as i know mint ships the same kernel as Ubuntu. Traditionally a DE includes both the window management AND the basic user space software developed by the team so I count that all together. The biggest change to the base is the removal of snaps, one of many reasons i enjoy pop

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hjake123@reddit

Spins have to be named the same thing as their parents (or similar) and distributed by the same group, no?

I don't think Mint is an Ubuntu spin, while Ubuntu Studio definitely is one

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CadmiumC4@reddit

By your logic bedrock is a 5th level

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If_you_will@reddit

Isn't KDE Neon based on Kubuntu? Debian -> Ubuntu -> Kubuntu -> KDE Neon

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gordonmessmer@reddit

Kubuntu isn't a separate distribution, it's just one possible configuration of Ubuntu, with a name. There are only three distributions in that list, and only one relationship that's similar to Linux Mint.

Ubuntu is a fork of Debian. It is an entirely independent build.

KDE Neon is an extension of Ubuntu, in the same way that Linux Mint is an extension of Ubuntu. It uses the Ubuntu repos for most software but adds a separate repo with a small number of packages that extend or replace components that are in the base set.

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xanhast@reddit

> Kubuntu isn't a separate distribution

kinda is tho, as

> Ubuntu flavors are owned and developed by members of our global community

not canonical

and specifically kubuntu split years ago

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l3ader021@reddit

Differential between Kubuntu and KDE Neon

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BazzaJH@reddit

KDE neon is based on Ubuntu LTS

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A2ER7Y@reddit

LastOSlinux is based of mint

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Morphized@reddit

PorteuX is based on Porteus which is based on Slax which is based on Slackware

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JumpPackPenguin@reddit

Here's the complete timeline of all distros and their origin:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg

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mWo12@reddit

Mint -> Fedora -> Arch -> Gentoo -> Bedrock Linux -> LFS

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Lower-Limit3695@reddit

Fedora -> Centos stream -> RHEL -> Oracle Linux, Rocky Linux, Alma Linux

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SmallApplication3826@reddit

I found a fifth level: Debian-> knoppix->kurumin->dizinha->neodizinha

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jrjsmrtn@reddit

Probably not what you’re thinking about, but NixOS and GUIX are **declarative** Linux distributions. That class of distributions may be the fourth generation :-)
The French government has decided to move from Windows to the NixOS-based Securix/Bureautix distros, and that may be the most intelligent thing they’ve done lately.
Add Niro/DSM to the mix and I think you may be hooked up :-)

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ArcadeToken95@reddit

Had me until the last line

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jrjsmrtn@reddit

What, Claude Code ? 😉

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jrjsmrtn@reddit

I've been experimenting with coding assistants on development, operations and, of course, troubleshooting. I'm not ashamed of that 😄

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MasterGeekMX@reddit

FerenOS, which is based on Linux Mint.

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Artichoke808@reddit

Feren OS was built on top of Mint. Not sure if that's still the case or not.

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Eadelgrim@reddit

Isn’t mint based on Debian now? I’m clearly ootl I haven’t checked it in a long time but I remember they where doing a switch a while ago

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daemonpenguin@reddit

Mint has two branches. One is based on Debian, the other is based on Ubuntu. The latter is usually considered the "main" edition.

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Eadelgrim@reddit

Oh! I wonder why they never fully committed to one. Thank you!

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daemonpenguin@reddit

Because they don't want to be locked into one ecosystem. Ubuntu was their main base, but they've always tried to maintain compatibility with at least one other base in case Ubuntu make too many changes they don't like. For a while I think there was talk about creating a branch based on Fedora, but it never materialized.

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Physical_Opposite445@reddit

Rocky Linux..?

Fedora -> centOS -> RHEL -> rocky

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apathyzeal@reddit

And alma.

Not sure why you're being down voted.

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daniel-sousa-me@reddit

Because someone else had already written the same

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niteninja1@reddit

rocky linux?

fedora —> centos —> RHEL —> rocky

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gordonmessmer@reddit

None of those distributions relate to each other the way that Mint relates to Ubuntu.

Mint systems use Ubuntu package repos for the majority of packages. Mint *depends* on Ubuntu.

None of the distributions you've listed share repos or depend on each other. The ones you've listed are forks/branches, while Mint is .... an "extension" of Ubuntu? I think that's the best term that comes to mind.

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PaintDrinkingPete@reddit

It’s more of a development pipeline, at least for the first 3… though Rocky and other RHEL clones like Alma Linux are closer to what Mint is Ubuntu, but the biggest difference is that they don’t offer anything on top of their distribution like Mint does.

Ubuntu is based on Debian, yes…but Ubuntu does maintain its own repositories and development cycles separately… Mint, on the other hand, piggybacks directly off of Ubuntu and literally uses their package repositories for everything they don’t maintain themselves (which is mostly just the DE, though there are a few other distinct differences).

In the end, it’s all just a benefit…or consequence depending on your perspective…of how open source software works.

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jonspw@reddit

AlmaLinux does offer features on top of RHEL. We return drivers that Red Hat has removed (legacy hardware support), have Btrfs, and frame pointers to name a few.

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PaintDrinkingPete@reddit

Fair enough, I apologize for not keeping up with every distribution available, but obviously you know. Thanks.

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gordonmessmer@reddit

i mean how many layers of dependancy is there

If that's what you mean, then I'm not sure there are any significant 3rd level distros.

Ubuntu does branch from Debian testing repos, but Debian is not a dependency of Ubuntu. Ubuntu's builds are independent of Debian.

Mint, however, is a very small number of packages built on an Ubuntu LTS base. Mint definitely requires Ubuntu (or Debian, for Mint LMDE)

By the definition you've offered, Mint is not a 3rd level distro.

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ArcadeToken95@reddit

I didn't know about the build being separate, thank you, I feel like that is not that well known or at least frequently misunderstood

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Haunting_Rope_8332@reddit

I've dabbled in some of those "4th level" distros, and my personal favorite is actually Lubuntu, which builds upon Ubuntu, which itself is based on Debian. I use it for my old laptops, and the lightweight experience has been a game changer. Another one that caught my attention was Linux Mint's LXDE spin, same idea, different DE. Halfway through, I realized I'd accidentally ran some configuration files through Runable, and it made the whole process so much smoother, lol kinda worth it tho.

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