Could someone explain council housing/estates?
Posted by RedSolez@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 77 comments
I am an American who reads a lot of thrillers, many by British authors. A few times I've seen references to council housing and council estates. I understand vaguely what that means from context clues and Googling, but since we don't have the same kind of government subsidized housing in the US I'm wondering if anyone in the UK who is familiar with both systems could explain it like I'm 5? Are the estates like what we'd refer to as housing developments? Do you find council housing in all different socioeconomic areas?
AikenLugon@reddit
You guys do have similar, I believe they're called The Projects.
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
Sounds like the biggest difference is that US government housing projects are always in the worst neighborhoods and only for the most desperately poor as an option of last resort. It is much more desirable to qualify for Section 8 versus government housing project because at least that voucher could be used in a nicer neighborhood, assuming the landlord will accept it (which is a whole other issue). The step equivalent to or above that would be a trailer park, depending on the neighborhood. And beyond that, the most desirable subsidy is a rent controlled apartment but only certain cities offer that and it's in extremely short supply because no one wants to give up a rent controlled apartment in a nice city.
togtogtog@reddit
Every town and city has council housing estates. A lot of them were built during the 1950s and 60s, either estates of family homes, with gardens large enough to grow enough food to feed a family (memories of the second world war, and don't forget that rationing only ended in 1947).
They were built to rehouse those living in privately rented Victorian terraced housing, which was often very badly built. They often had no bathroom, a yard (that means a small paved area here, rather than a garden) and were not good.
The new estates were generally built outside of the towns, on green field sites, were idealistic, spacious, well planned and well constructed, with bathrooms indoors upstairs! They had wide roads, grass verges and open areas for the children to play on, and planted cherry trees or other ornamental trees.
It was part of the drive to provide good lives for all those who had fought in the war, along with the National Health system.
Over time, because only poorer people lived in the estates, they gained a poor reputation. You would often find old couples, who really looked after the houses, with white net curtains, very beautiful gardens and neat hedges, then another house with several wreaked cars and fridges in the front garden.
KT180x@reddit
Great explanation.
I like that you highlighted the high quality of the building. I bought an ex council maisonette, and all the rooms are big, theres tons of storage and large garden with a brick shed. Built in the late 50s / 60s and the whole street was once a council estate; now its half and half and a very desirable road to live on. But to your point, was it a bit cheaper because it's ex council? I definitely think so.
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
What is a maisonette?
glassbottleoftears@reddit
A two story apartment
togtogtog@reddit
I always think that modern developments will be the 'slums of the future' and that ex-council houses are real bargains! There is usually plenty of scope for building driveways in the large front gardens, the houses are sturdy, spacious, you can add a nice porch, or extend them, and you will have an amazing house for life. They are the 'desirable homes of the future'.
They are usually in lovely locations, peaceful yet accessible, usually near to schools, bus routes and services.
I love ex-council houses, and just wish there were more council houses for those that would benefit from them.
Ok_Analyst_5640@reddit
Not slums, but I see "old new build" estates from the 90s that have had time to bed in. They look more normal once people have different planting schemes, have made alterations and at least one of the houses has a driveway full of ~~scrap~~ cars they're fixing. Dare I say... council estatey?
togtogtog@reddit
There will always be a mixture of people. That is the strength of people, that we are so varied. We need that variety of people, all types, all sorts.
drivingagermanwhip@reddit
I live in an ex-council house in Manchester and the best place I lived in London was a former council house. They're just so practically proportioned.
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
Thank you for such a thorough and fascinating explanation!
Kittygrizzle1@reddit
I thought they were also built to replace housing stock destroyed in the wars. This explains why the US didn’t have them. They never got bombed.
They weren’t all built in the 50’s and 60’s. My grandma lived on an estate built in the late 20’s.
togtogtog@reddit
Oh yes, I absolutely agree - I was just being brief. :-)
gxb20@reddit
Rationing actually ended in 1954 in the UK, great post though
togtogtog@reddit
Whoops - I was writing in a rushed fashion. I shall correct it.
jesuseatsbees@reddit
Wow this exactly describes where I grew up (built 1930s though.)
Winston_Carbuncle@reddit
Is social housing. Housing provided by either the council or a housing association at an affordable rate.
And estate just means it's several streets of this type of housing exclusively.
Can be flats/apartments, tenements, high flat terraced houses, semi detached or detached.
There is a connotation that they are poor quality, run down, and are generally undesirable areas to live but that isn't a rule. There are many estates, or parts of estates, that are perfectly good places to live.
There are also many estates in which part of most of the housing stock has been purchased by private owners so doesn't really fit the council house/estate tag but still carries it - dependant on context.
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
So in this context the council or housing authority are government entities, and they own the homes but rent them at an affordable rate to people whose income are low enough to qualify?
Winston_Carbuncle@reddit
Local councils, so local government, or housing associations. I'm not sure exactly what housing associations are - quangos maybe? Just to confuse you further lol.
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
LOL I definitely have never heard of a quango but what's also confusing when you say housing association is that it's pretty much the opposite of a homeowners association here in the US but has a similar name 😂
signol_@reddit
I work for a housing association. We're private, not for profit, quasi-charity, quasi-public sector. All income after expenses is reinvested in developments, improvements and "social purpose".
Kudosnotkang@reddit
Yes you’ve essentially got it.
What’s confusing (probably) is we have lots that were originally social housing but are no longer … but they still get called council estates (as they were built as such ) . Someone above gave a good description of how it unfolded. The ex-council estates can also be a bit rougher/more crime ridden than private/general housing that’s never been social but it’s a complete mixed pot and people just call it an estate because it still looks like one not necessarily making comment on the occupants (but sometimes definitely doing so!).
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
Ahh ok thank you this clears up probably the biggest thing that was confusing me. That everyone still will refer to a council estate even if it no longer is one because of the look/history. We have a lot of things like that where we refer to something as it used to be even though it hasn't been that for a while 😂
CraftyWeeBuggar@reddit
Anybody qualifies, regardless of income. Its just the long wait lists, people who can afford it, go private or buy their own house. Those that cant wait....
Kamila95@reddit
That is not true, at least in my council there are earning and savings caps that disqualify you from applying.
Kamila95@reddit
Just to add: just being low income would not get you a council house nowadays, they're in a huge shortage.
Maximum-Peach2911@reddit
Yes
Accomplished-Fix3841@reddit
This is the right answer.
I own a semi-detached house (what an American might call a duplex) on a former-ish council estate. I say “-ish” because a good amount of the area is still social housing run by the council. The estate originally dates back to the 1920s.
Semi-detached homes on our street run about £400k, so definitely not the slums.
Curious-Term9483@reddit
Ours is similar. The people the other side of the wall are council, we are not. If you were to look at our front gardens you might think it was the other way round 🤦♀️.
No_Ring_3348@reddit
You call it section 8 housing mate, it's not quite the same but it's broadly similar.
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
Yep, it sounds like the biggest difference is that with Section 8 the government doesn't own the housing units, so the voucher has to be accepted by the landlord or management company who runs the apartment complex.
octopez@reddit
>we don't have the same kind of government subsidized housing in the US
Actually, we do. We have both public and private subsidized housing: Section 8 vouches that can be used with a private landlord and also public housing, both have income restrictions.
RedSolez@reddit (OP)
We do in theory but it sounds like the reality is very different. Housing projects are in the absolute worst neighborhoods and seem to be an option of last resort for the most desperate of the poor. Section 8 vouchers can be used anywhere but it's subject to the landlord being willing to accept the voucher, which is a totally different hurdle.
JoJoeyJoJo@reddit
Section 8, but they haven’t been made since the 80s so people who say they were tough, it’s like “yeah must be real tough having a guaranteed tenancy with rent control and a responsive landlord, can I have one?”
Sea_Pomegranate8229@reddit
I think in the states 'The Projects' is your closest to Council estate. There is a lot of stereo-typing involved but lowest common denominator would fit.
Watch UK Shameless for a taster.
Dull-Addition-2436@reddit
Like “the projects”
noodlezs76@reddit
That sort of fits inner city council estates but not necessarily council estates in the rest of the country
knotatwist@reddit
What's the difference? It's all low income housing run by govt agencies, no?
Acceptable-Extent-94@reddit
"subsidized low income housing run by govt agencies" To clarify: rents were not subsidized, they were controlled to ensure that the loans that were taken out to build these estates could be paid back (over maybe, 30 years). They were not run by "Govt agencies" they were run by local authorities, city or town councils. "low income" not really. In the area my parents lived for 35 years (I lived there for 18), most households had a good, working class incomes or were ex-forces, or war widows. Growing up on a council estate was pretty idyllic. They did change as older generations died off but they fulfilled their purpose and I am grateful for that. I lived in Bedford Falls, not Pottersville.
spaceshipcommander@reddit
Have you been to a council estate in wales or even on the outskirts of Sheffield? My great grandmother lived in a council house with 3 huge bedrooms and a huge back garden. The council repaired everything, fixed the fences and I'm pretty sure they moved the lawn. She lived in it for over 70 years. The estate was mostly old people who had lived there for decades. Both of my great aunties lived on the same street too. Council estate doesn't mean the same thing in the suburbs as it does in the city centre. It's like saying a wolf is the same thing as a Jack Russell.
togtogtog@reddit
The idealism with which council estates were built, trying to provide a better life for 'everyman' after the second world war.
noodlezs76@reddit
OP was asking for clarification, generalising does not help
linmanfu@reddit
That's roughly true but the UK had an era when a large proportion of the population lived in council housing and it was widely available. I don't know whether the US ever had that.
NotableCarrot28@reddit
Also they're much more mixed in with other housing it's not ghettoised like the US
Geezer-McGeezer@reddit
Exactly this
f8rter@reddit
Think Trailer Parks or “projects”
octopez@reddit
>since we don't have the same kind of government subsidized housing in the US
Actually, we do. There’s public and private subudized housing in the US - Section 8 vouchers that can used with private landlords. There’s also public housing which have income restrictions.
Solid_Bodybuilder_89@reddit
Council houses are owned by local governments, who rent them out.
Council estates can be rough, imagine the people you have in American redneck Trailer homes, these are the same kind of people who would be renting council houses.
signol_@reddit
Not quite. Each council decides whether to run the properties themselves, or transfer ownership to a housing association. Nowadays the HAs aren't so much fixed in local area.
Solid_Bodybuilder_89@reddit
They asked to simplify it to that a 5 year old would understand.
So I did, you are adding factors, that would confuse OP.
sammy_zammy@reddit
But are also the minority. Most people in council houses are just people.
YouveEatenMySausage@reddit
yeah i really don’t think that’s a fair comparison lol
Live-Independent-416@reddit
Social housing/ Council Housing is basically a housing association that owns the building and you effectivly apply to live in them and bid. the winner gets in one and yeah its just a home that the government owns or a Housing Association. outside of that there are just regular private homes that you can buy but thats a lot of money and I very much most likely will never be able to own my own house. So I will be on the Council List for homes.. I recently had a Son and managed to get our home upgraded to a new Home, a Maisonette with more rooms.
MissionFig5582@reddit
Queen_of_London@reddit
I live in social housing. It's a nice Victorian flat with a garden in London. Some people on Reddit hate me for having it, but the problem is the lack of affordable housing to go around, not me living in one. Reddit skews young, and it's hard to get a social housing flat if you're young, and especially if you don't have kids or a serious physical disability.
It varies a LOT. Some is larger estates that are somewhat like the "projects," though how rough they are depends an awful lot. Many of those estates in London are actually perfectly fine to live in, and don't have high crime. A few are pretty rough - the bigger the estate, the rougher it tends to be.
Some are Victorian streets like mine. I know my neighbours well and we have a strong community.
Some are detached or semi-detached homes, especially in more rural areas. You can tell they're social housing mainly by the uniformity of their door colour - private homes in the same area will add a porch or change the windows or something.
There is a higher percentage of people not in employment, but quite a bit of that is due to there being more older and disabled tenants. That also varies depending on the type of estate - the rougher estates have more unemployed people and people with problem behaviour than the older estates.
There's also usually a higher percentage of non-white people in social housing, though a lot of that is due to refugees and migrants in the 70s and 80s being given homes that, at the time, nobody else wanted.
Most areas in every city have some element of social housing. On TV they only show large post-war concrete blocks, and while that is a fairly large percentage of social housing, it's very much not all of it.
We usually have permanent tenancies, lower rent, and the right to make a lot of changes to our homes - decorating, etc, not building an extension. "Usually" because some new tenancies are five year, and the rent is either not much lower or not lower at all, but they are still more secure than private rentals.
hallerz87@reddit
“The Projects”
Sea-Still5427@reddit
Council estate (or schemes in Scotland) are roughly the same as 'the projects' for you. These days it's usually called social housing,not least because most of the councils sold off their housing stock to tenants under 'right to buy'.
kewpiemoon@reddit
It’s the British equivalent to ‘the hood’
iamabigtree@reddit
I live on a council estate. It's semi-detached houses with front gardens mostly converted to drives, three bedrooms and decent gardens at the back.
They are also almost entirely privately owned, as is ours.
Timely_Egg_6827@reddit
Council housing and estates came about from the 1920s to 1980s. WW1 revealed a shocking level of ill-health among lower class population and that was put down to living in slums. The government provided money to councils to sweep away the slums and replace them with council housing - the council carried the cost of building and maintaining the houses and flats and the tenants paid rents. But those rents tend to be lower than market rate you'd pay to rent from someone privately - normally about 80% of the private rents.
WW2 helped in that a lot of housing got bombed so the councils had a lot of brownfield land to build on. So big estates of council houses were built (the largest was 26,000 houses but 500 not uncommon). They weren't always well supplied with amenities like shops and schools though some were. You do get them in almost all councils and there is an increasing trend to mix private and social housing together so you don't get segregated communities by wealth.
People living on the council estates varied a lot from social delinquients to aspirational young families to older people living in retirement. You can work and be eligible for council housing. I grew up on one and then my Dad bought a house when income allowed. Sadly it only takes a small number of anti-social people to give estates a bad name and if unemoployment high, the estates tended to be hit hardest. So some of the estates got a bad name. Most of them are just X Street and Y Street. It can be hard to know which parts of town are necessarily council esp after Thatcher made it possible to buy at a discount. Councils are generally not too bad at maintaining their stock of housing in ok condition.
So estates can vary from crime-riddled "sink estates" where few people working and lots of drugs and gangs to nicely kept housing filled with families who have stable jobs. It's not the fact they are council housing that makes them sink estates - it is the fact the people have more limited opportunties on some estates and some people are just not motivated to be good social citizens but can't be left to die in the streets.
Thrillers tend to use the sink estates as backdrops. Nearest to it might NYC's rent protected and stabalised properties except the landlord is the council.
Hope that is clearer than mud.
Derfel60@reddit
Its a house owned by the local government (the council) that they rent to you for a very cheap price. Imagine the state government owned houses and rented to local vulnerable people for $500 per month.
Aggressive-Artist-63@reddit
It’s “The Hood” in American terms
Serious_Badger_4145@reddit
It's equivalent to what you guys call 'the projects' only they were initially built for a wider group of people
Skate_beard@reddit
Imagine if trailer parks were brick and mortar buildings, and you're half way there.
Solid_Bodybuilder_89@reddit
Lol, this is how I have just described it too, like a Trailer park community.
Winston_Carbuncle@reddit
That's just not true at all
romeo__golf@reddit
Council houses were built by the state (local councils), mostly in the early to mid-20th century after second world war, with a decline in the 70s/80s when the "Right to Buy" policy was introduced. That policy enabled council tenants to buy their homes at large discounts with the aim of giving more people the chance to be homeowners.
It's become hugely controversial, largely because sold stock wasn't replaced and a shortage of suitable homes developed. Many "ex-council" homes exist and in some ways are coveted due to the larger rooms than private ones, but are often seen as a slightly cheaper option for buyers depending on how many of the neighbouring homes have also become privately owned.
Today, while the term "council house" is used frequently, homes are now usually built and managed by a housing association rather than the local authority ("council") themselves.
The main benefits to council houses beyond the lower rent is "lifetime tenancies" - once you qualified the house was yours for life, often with the ability to pass it to surviving family members on death. This has been rolled back slightly, with some councils offering fixed terms for a while, but around 80% of council tenants still get lifetime contracts.
Historically homes were built in large estates ("council estate"), or in large tower blocks in city centres, but these days it's more common for them to be built as part of a larger private development where most homes are bought privately and a percentage (set locally) are designated as social housing.
The goal here was to prevent the council estate neighbourhoods getting a bad reputation, and with the thought that if owner-occupiers were nearby keeping their homes well maintained, this might also encourage social tenants to do the same.
Zealousideal-Low3388@reddit
It’s housing developments, apartments or streets of houses owned and maintained by local government, that’s rented out not-for-profit, to low income people based on certain qualifying factors.
There’s a huge under-supply since the 1980s: tenants were allowed to buy their house below market rate, councils weren’t able to replace the housing stock
Some council estates are known for all the problems you have in poor areas generally, crime and poverty etc. They also tend to be more multicultural than other communities.
Because of this, a lot of classist and racist pricks feel very comfortable shitting on the people that grew up on estates, because they know that they’re better than us. I’m sure a few of these lovely people will bed making jokes about knife crime and benefits in this thread
ysc1@reddit
As someone has said, its sort of like the projects.
Obviously, they are not in the most expensive areas and there are generally more in cheaper areas, but overall the objective is to have social housing be fairly evenly distributed.
For example in London you will find social housing right in the centre of town and aslo near some of the most expensive residential areas. The idea was (its been weakened as councils build less and a lot of properties have been priviatised) that we avoid the kind of situation you have in areas of the US where you have areas exclusively for the rich and others for the poor.
Some of them are a little sketchy, as per the often repeated stereotypes, but most of them are just places people live. I (as a soft as anything middle class guy) routinely walk through several.
DameKumquat@reddit
An American term would be 'housing projects' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidized_housing_in_the_United_States
After WW2 there was a huge shortage of housing thanks to so many being bombed (and housing had always been a top election issue for the 100 years before that too). Councils (local government) built housing estates (council estates) for families, though this often meant shipping them a way from their communities - most Cockneys descendants are now in Essex, for example.
All great for a while, but demand exceeded supply, so soon you ended up with only the most needy getting a council house, while those who could afford it paid market rents to be somewhere nicer quicker. And the estates weren't maintained, concrete and walkways in the sky turned out to be a bad idea...
And then Thatcher announced Right to Buy - people could buy their council houses at a discount. Which might not have been such a bad idea to mix up classes etc, except that councils were banned from using the proceeds to build more housing.
So council housing is now associated with the most desperate who councils have a duty to house. There's actually a huge variation of council (and partly/mostly ex-council) estates - some are lovely communities, others are the sorts of shit hole you get in movies like Trainspotting. Often within a couple hundred yards of each other.
ActionBirbie@reddit
There is no real comparison, because the Americans don't really have a welfare state like other countries do.
GlumAd9856@reddit
It has changed over the decades.
After the second world war there was a long period where local governments would build and maintain housing and then rent it out to people at a subsidised rate. There were large housing estates, but they typically involved apartment blocks (including high-rises).
As time went on these estates developed a bad reputation as they tended to house lower income people and those on benefit - and as everyone rented there was less incentive to look after your property/local area. Also, many of the buildings were built in a way that encouraged crime and vandalism.
From the 1980s the policy changed and the government offered council estate residence the option to buy their properties at heavily discounted rates. So you now have 'ex-council estates' where most of the housing is now privately owned. Many of the old tower blocks built in the 60s/70s have been knocked down and either replaced with private homes or newer designed apartment blocks.
These days the idea is to have a small number of council properties among private estates, rather than having them all together.
wrong_andy@reddit
Depends where in the UK. In some cities it's flats in tower blocks, some its terraced or semi detached houses. There's a "right to buy" in the UK so a lot of the estates are now mixed social housing and private housing. In addition most UK councils dont now run their own estates and it's farmed out to private/secondary suppliers.
solid-north@reddit
The closest analogy is the "projects".
Council estates were originally aimed at a wide variety of middle and lower socio-economic class people but over the years and for various political reasons they've become much more associated with lower incomes, antisocial behaviour, crime etc.
Hour_Course_9876@reddit
Imagine “The Wire” but with knives instead of guns and a free healthcare so you can be patched up and go back at it
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