What's actually happening in recruiting process that "raises the bar"?
Posted by FrickinSilly@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 72 comments
As a developer of 11 years, I've been through a lot of interview loops. This last few months has been the most challenging set of loops I've ever gone through. It feels like you have to be perfect in each of your coding/system design rounds and your project experience to get a chance at an offer.
3 years ago (even in the midst of several high profile layoffs) I applied to 3 jobs, got 2 offers and I barely prepped for interviews.
This time, I spent weeks on hellointerview and neetcode/leetcode, and have 3 years of senior/staff level projects under my belt (and to that effect, I am not having a problem with those rounds). I was rejected after 3 tech screens, 12 onsites/loops, and got 2 offers.
This isn't a "why can't I get a job" rant thread (I got one), but rather, I want to know what is happening behind the scenes to make it so difficult for a skilled developer to get an offer. Is the bar raised in the debrief? Is the recruiter in the debrief urging everyone to be harsh? Or is it just "yes, he passed the bar, but so did these other 5 candidates and now we must rank and pick"?
And I'm asking here because most of us devs are in these debriefs. I've seen so many barely qualified candidates get pushed through at "high bar" companies. I'm just wondering what the conversations are like now for a full debrief team to say "well a year ago we would have said he crushed the coding round and the system design round.. but now? decline".
CarelessPackage1982@reddit
I've worked at 2 companies that utilized "bar raiser" interviews....which meant specifically - the person you were hiring had to score better than the lowest person on your team.
At one of these companies, that lowest person also go fired if they did decided to hire - which made hosting interviews SUPREMELY toxic like you wouldn't believe.
valkon_gr@reddit
What kind of hell is this
klowny@reddit
Sounds like Amazon.
DefinitelyNotAPhone@reddit
Former Amazon management loves this kind of self-destructive, pointlessly cruel hiring nonsense.
At a previous job they had a bar raiser interview after the normal gauntlet of technical interviews which was always run by C-suite members. The owner of the company made one of the C-suites' performance metrics be whether they were rejecting at least a certain number of candidates during this round (~20% IIRC), so we were going through 6 rounds of interviews with candidates only to lose 1 out of 5 of them after we'd already determined they deserved to get a job offer.
Massive waste of time, money, and effort, all for an interview that was basically just a vibe check with someone who will never interact with the employee if they get hired.
DigmonsDrill@reddit
Choose the form of your destructor.
curious_corn@reddit
What? Hunger Games?
LowLifeDev@reddit
What kind of hunger games is this?
B-Con@reddit
Holy shit that's brutal.
So the hiring decision was basically always "do we want to replace Bob with this candidate?"
thekwoka@reddit
Which leads to office politics...
I mean, it's an interesting way to frame it for ensuring the hire is useful, but not when ACTUALLY replacing bob, since, while it could be practical and "efficient" it produces bad incentives to the humans in the process.
Current-Fig8840@reddit
Bruhh
Unhappy-Ladder-4594@reddit
I would have thought that even Amazon wouldn't be stupid enough to do something like this.
It does perfectly explain the hostility from some interviewers. If this is what you have to contend with, then yes you would in fact need to form a pact with your team members to make sure nobody else gets hired. As gross as that would feel otherwise.
epelle9@reddit
Amazon does not do this.
There is a bar raiser, and you need to be above the team/ amazon average to be hired (you raise the bar), but they don’t just fire people because they hired someone else.
cuddle-bubbles@reddit
it is just a time lag. performance reviews are relative. so by raising the bar. the level of acceptable performance also gets raised
epelle9@reddit
Yup, the point is to constantly raise the bar.
But they are seen in the org level, not team specifically.
cuddle-bubbles@reddit
so its just a tickling time bomb for people to get fired as a bar raiser is hired in
epelle9@reddit
Not if you are raising the bar.. (lol that totally sounded Amazon cult-ish)
OriginalTangle@reddit
the best kind of time bomb IMHO.
bwmat@reddit
Is this 'lowest person', in management's opinion, made explicit & known among all the team members? Was there some 'real time' ranking board???
ImaginaryEconomist@reddit
How does this work? How does one know how the lowest person on some team would perform in an interview.
djnattyp@reddit
If they want a fucking battle royale interview process, then... but I'll get an AI generated 3 day suspension from reddit for "inciting violence" for completing this thought.
DigThatData@reddit
lol what a fucked up workplace
MediocreDot3@reddit
I've been interviewed by the people I would be replacing before but what the fuck is that lmao
Lucky_Low5561@reddit
From my role in hiring it is four fold.
First, hiring is down in general so you're role hiring not pipeline hiring. There is one spot for one job posting, not one posting 10 jobs. So you may have cleared the bar but been #2 on their list.
Second, everyone thinks they can be pickier. They think they can find someone who did this exact thing before but the recruiters are still trying to get people out in front of them. Whether they can (or should) is a different question.
Third, we don't have any explicit guidance to make hiring harder but we have been fiddling with the process to try and figure out who gets AI stuff, and better weed out those using it in the process when they shouldn't be. This IMO has made everything more random. We've got one code review round and people do not get it no matter how much we fiddle with the description of the prompt like one in three will see the code signal and try to leetcode pattern match what they've got.
Finally, the market is deeper. Last job I've got stats for was a fully remote US senior software engineer we put up the job description on Friday and Monday had 3,000 resumes to trawl through. We weren't all that picky but in the first round we got 8 resumes for a phone screen, did 4 on-sites. 2 passed, 2 failed we've got an offer out to one of them. There is 1 person who knows where they are in the process and ~2994 others pondering what the deal is.
So yeah you've got the basic picture of the situation.
FrickinSilly@reddit (OP)
Thanks, this is the most reasonable and thorough take here.
OriginalTangle@reddit
Thanks for sharing. Do you also have a clear view on why hiring is down in general?
AwesomePurplePants@reddit
A big part of it is higher interest rates.
Like, I doubt lowering interest rates would fix it right now, the reason why the Fed raised them was runaway inflation and just ignoring that problem would make things worse.
But when rates were lower it was easier to take risky bets since there was so much predictable almost free investment money.
Now that money is gone, making investors more stingy and more demanding for tangible ROI. And cutting costs by firing people is the easiest way to try to keep the party going
SolidDeveloper@reddit
Not sure what world you lived in 3 years ago, but I interviewed in 2022 and had to massively prepare for interviews – the whole shabang: leetcode, sys design prep, behavioural prep etc. – and it took me many months to finally start getting offers and land a (well paid) job. I see nothing different today.
_Merxer_@reddit
In late 2020, after responding to 1 recruiter on Linkedin, I had 2 offers after 3 single round interviews in 2 weeks. No active searching, no preparing.
I dread the day I need to find another job now that I have a kid and wouldn't have time for endless searching and prepping.
FrickinSilly@reddit (OP)
I have a 1 and a 3 year old and just bought a new house. The layoff was certainly not fun. Took about 2-3 months and tons of rejections in the first 6 weeks or so, but ended up with multiple offers once I understood the modern interview process. I plan on doing a write up about all the missing details that hellointerview/leetcode don't prepare you for.
Anyways, all that to say, it's daunting, but doable! Don't lose sleep or dread it.
hachface@reddit
You’re overthinking this. We’re in an unacknowledged recession (meaning layoffs), many tech companies have nonsensical business models that are finally hitting a wall (meaning layoffs), and the C suite is actively trying to replace skilled labor with LLM agents (meaning layoffs). There’s been a lot of layoffs, with more to come. It’s just a tough market right now.
FrickinSilly@reddit (OP)
I get that, and agree about us being in a recession, but I interviewed with tons of companies with lots of open positions looking to grow (mostly strong venture-backed AI companies. The only ones that are getting insane funding to grow right now).
deckardWizard@reddit
Ok I have some unsatisfying perspective on this from a high level. I consult with series B+ companies in the northeastern US on technology staffing (ymmv outside that microcosm). There is currently a kind of shit tornado of three macro forces that are all applying downward pressure on headcount.
First, the cost of capital is relatively high. Inflation means that companies’ money goes less far. Higher interest rates mean that borrowing is more expensive. PE is scaling back on their spending spree (depending on the sector). Basically every way to raise outside funds has less favorable terms than the last 5-10 years. This has pushed companies to be super conservative on hiring. Many organizations are trying to limit burn and shore up cash on hand. Orgs I work with are ridiculously reluctant to increase headcount unless something is actually on fire. Some companies are even striking backfill that would have been automatic at any other time in the previous 15 years.
Next, there was a huge glut of hiring after the COVID stimulus. Cheap and easy money meant lots of companies waaaaayyy over-staffed. Practically any new initiative justified hiring a whole team and a barista. Today we’re in the hangover phase where orgs are having to downsize. It means fewer positions are available (companies are often slow to hire after a major layoff), then it means that there are more qualified people in the candidate pool. I had a position open up and had multiple applications in the first week that I would have killed for a few years ago. So in this case the bar really is getting higher because of a rich market.
Finally, the elephant in the room is AI. I’ve talked to CEOs that truly believe they will never need to hire another human engineer because Claude will do it for them. Whether that has any merit or not remains to be seen, but in the meantime this attitude is surprisingly pervasive. A CEO is ultimately the person who is deciding on staffing levels, so their perspective that “AI means fewer needed engineers” translates down to hiring practices. I do my very best to talk them down from that view, but seeing AI think pieces on Twitter makes them antsy (I have some wild stories). AI also serves as great confirmation bias that their hiring practices weren’t bad, it’s the kids who were wrong. In fairness, AI absolutely does change things. It just changes in more nuanced ways that vary a lot by sector, stage, scale, and product that can’t be reduced to simple arithmetic.
Ultimately, in debriefs it’s less like “we don’t think this person can do the job,” and more like “we are only getting one head this year so we need them to be exactly what we need.” You can do extremely well in tech and system design interviews but you’re being ranked against a rich pool of candidates for a more constrained number of roles. Organizations’ tolerance for risk on candidates has absolutely tanked leading to being hyper selective even among qualified applicants. I have been in debriefs where we acknowledge that the person was a strong hire, but not someone we could just drop in solve everything.
Hope that answers the question, or at least gives some insight!
RandomPantsAppear@reddit
I feel like this is the first time there has been a brain worm that has spread so wildly the in the C suite.
It’s the perfect storm: a solution to their largest expense, that they don’t understand, but seems like magic.
FrickinSilly@reddit (OP)
One of the most damning things about it is just how well it demos and how quick you can get a tinker toy project up and running decently.
Really is the perfect storm for CEOs big and small.
TheWheez@reddit
It also seems to totally short circuit their decisionmaking, at least disproportionate to the wider job market
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit
Thanks for sharing, I really appreciate that perspective.
superide@reddit
On the subject of AI, is the following very true for doing actual work? Being good with AI beats using very little AI, but that beats creating a bigger mess with AI. Right now I think the bar is so high that "using little AI" won't get a pass even if they're not going to create tech debt on the scale of the slop coders.
But even when things are better, speed is still gonna be king with most companies. So I'm concerned even the clumsy vibe coders will receive preference. Despite the fact they don't know much of what they're doing, they could be making changes fast enough where it looks good to the right people.
Wide-Pop6050@reddit
Those are not the conversations at all. There are just a lot of candidates and companies can be pickier
_lazyLambda@reddit
Companies being able to be pickier doesnt mean they're gonna choose better with more candidates. Most resumes are never read by a human
MindlessSponge@reddit
someone should tell them about the secretary problem
thekwoka@reddit
that if they get 3000 applications, they should immediately dismiss the first 8?
zazzersmel@reddit
It’s not about getting better candidates, it’s about weakening employees
Unhappy-Ladder-4594@reddit
No, but they think they will.
Haunting_Rope_8332@reddit
I've been in those debriefs, and I've seen what you're talking about, it's like the bar has indeed been raised to an absurd level. It's like they're trying to outdo each other with nitpicks, making it harder for even a good candidate like yourself to get through.
thekwoka@reddit
So, part of it can just be decent influx of developers that at least look good on paper and in interviews into the hiring pool from those high profile layoffs.
Like, at the end of the day it isn't about being "good enough for the role" but "being the best out of those that applied".
You maybe be plenty good enough to succeed in the role, but someone else applying is better (or at least is judged to be better during the limited scope of the hiring process).
Another aspect can be that with AI and some other stuff, it can be really hard to tell who is absolute bullshit and who is real, and sometimes the bullshit wins.
_lazyLambda@reddit
As someone who has studied neuroscience, the hiring process and PLT for the last 10 years it is simply that it is the most garbage process with loads of baked in assumptions and a social science mindset. By this I mean that a 5% correlation in social science is considered good and this has led to many "ground truths" about how to evaluate talent which are pure garbage.
Now like any crap system, try scaling it, and boom its gonna implode in fascinating ways.
SuedeAsian@reddit
This sounds fascinating, can you elaborate more on some of the ways these assumptions and over indexed social science has manifested?
_lazyLambda@reddit
Also the fact that leetcode is still considered a useful hiring filter is crazy to me. But its industry standard despite being nearly useless with the exception of filtering out someone who cant do a simple fizzbuzz, im moreso talking about "do 4 leetcodes in 40 minutes" which isnt even in line with the job description
_lazyLambda@reddit
The biggest way Ive seen is that predictors that are applicable across the population with some level of correlation for example personality tests or what school or education you categorically received or even how you structure your resume have been found to have some correlation with job success.
At a certain point it seems we forgot that these are less than 50% correlated with success and especially HR professionals who often start the first stages of the hiring process filter based on this manner.
What i see this has led to is a lack of recognition there is a major flaw in how we think about hiring when we need to be breaking it down to a science of measuring learning quality someone has gained in the past. But thats hard and you wont do that if you dont think theres a problem
rhd_live@reddit
First of all it varies by company.
Anecdotally though the bar is just generally higher. More candidates are able to get my question with some time to spare. It makes others now look bad by comparison, and tbh I would want to work with someone that could talk through/discuss the LC medium I give and get a working, somewhat clean code solution for.
The days where ppl eke by and miss some edge cases and still get a “slightly yes” are past. These candidates get slightly no” rating from me now
RedditUserData@reddit
I've done a lot of interviews over the years. Prior to the techpocalyspe a role would have gotten roughly 10-20 people applying over a couple weeks and there would be maybe one amazing person and few average people and a bunch of low quality candidates. Generally we couldn't offer huge salaries for the amazing person so usually it was one of the few average people.
Now we get hundreds of a applicants in just a weekend. Most are thrown out, we can't interview everyone so we'll take the top 10-20 and start there. The top 10-20 usually are all average to great developers and good amount of amazing candidates.
There's just so many people applying that we don't even need to consider anyone below average, and average person has an uphill fight now.
writebadcode@reddit
My team has been interviewing and it’s been pretty frustrating for me as an interviewer.
I’ve interviewed so many great candidates and other folks on my team have this weird “I think we could do better” attitude. So it just feels like we have endless rounds of interviews.
To me interviews are about finding if someone has a good attitude and clears a reasonable bar of ability for the job. Trying to hire rockstars will just waste time and like get you candidates who are all talk.
pplmbd@reddit
had this in my previous employer once I joined interview pipeline. like bruh, they are passing and great attitude, why make things hard for no reason but thinking there’s someone better
writebadcode@reddit
I honestly don’t care about finding the best possible candidate. We’re getting great candidates with 10+ years of relevant experience and solid people skills. We just need to pick one.
Maybe there’s someone 10% better, but that’s almost impossible to tell from interviews anyway.
lookitskris@reddit
It's a buyers market. The tide will shift back again eventually, and it will shift with avengence I recon
Decent_Muffin_7062@reddit
You're asking 2 different questions here.
Why is it so hard to get an offer? Simply because there's more competition. Companies don't have to choose the first who 'meets the bar' (and that is.... for the roles which are actually filled and not cancelled last minute).
I work for a large non-tech company, and for the first time I got a lot of applicants from big names, FAANG and FAANG adjacent, people who would normally never give us a second glance. It's crazy. Never seen this in all my years of experience.
Why are 'barely qualified' candidates hired? Difficult to answer without knowing why exactly you thought they were barely qualified. Some people are easily swayed by smooth talkers. But also, an astonishing number of 'senior' devs place too much emphasis on trivia and minute technical details/'interview prep' over everything else.
Information and knowledge are not the same thing.
obelix_dogmatix@reddit
Hiring is tight, and I don’t want to take a chance at someone who is 80% of the way when I am finding candidates that are 100% fit.
CorrectPeanut5@reddit
I'm not seeing it in the contracting space. Interviewing is about the same, and tends to be kind of lax since you can jettison a contractor way easier than an FTE in most orgs.
2cars1rik@reddit
Why would the recruiter ask them to be harsh? Recruiters are incentivized to get candidates hired.
Asking these sorts of questions without thinking through the incentives for all involved parties first is silly.
seinfeld4eva@reddit
I think it's because there are fewer software engineering jobs out there -- thanks to AI and offshoring -- and the competition is higher than ever. Companies are looking for the perfect fit.
Haunting_Rope_8332@reddit
Felt like I was trying to hit a moving target with each round, and it wasn't until I got past the initial rounds that I realized the bar kept getting raised with each new candidate. Like you said, three years ago I could've coasted through interviews with minimal prep, but this time around it felt like everyone's expectations were higher. It was like being in a never ending staircase of tech screens and onsites, you're not good enough unless you can do better than the person who just got rejected
sp-watson@reddit
I've had a very similar experience - looking for a job 3 years ago and again now - and I am seeing the same thing : Its no longer enough to give good answers, you need to do it quickly and accurately.
I've been rejected 4 times so far, all at different stages and I didn't do much wrong, just not quite as good as I could have been. 3 years ago I got a few offers from maybe just 10 job applications
But I am also struggling to get interviews for remote jobs, especially for US orgs. However, that doesn't surprise me given the number of redundancies in big tech.
lqlqlq@reddit
for us, we are hiring for specific roles not just filing open HC in a team for "good people" so they can learn / ramp up. Super high relevance in experience. which also implies more senior folks who have track record of shipping multiple projects with impact at their level.
the technical bar is not higher, but experience and culture match is. with AI blast radius and leverage is higher.
we know we can find hundreds of people who have within 90% match of the experience we need.
throwaway_0x90@reddit
classic supply/demand
thethirdmancane@reddit
80% of tech hiring is corporate masturbation. Bar raisers are an advanced technique.
MoreHuman_ThanHuman@reddit
role-based supply and demand. companies are investing less in web stack development, investing more in work that requires real engineering talent, and replacing blue collar programming work through AI-enabled staffing compression.
SnooWalruses3948@reddit
It's rare that recruiters have that much influence, and the good ones (which do) aren't indexing on their own judgement alone, particularly if they're non-technical.
The primary factors that I'm seeing win favor in the technology market are commercial awareness, communication and simplicity in solution design.
But the truth is that most companies have far more choice these days, and that's just the facts.
huameng@reddit
Truthfully, I don’t think there is anything. I think with good process, there will be well understood questions and a rubric addressing common success and failure modes on those questions, but I’ve never seen anyone suggest tightening the rubric to raise the bar. And when a bunch of candidates meet the bar, the conversations kinda degrade into bikeshedding over humans
The interviews I’ve been a part of have all been arbitrary when it comes to deciding e.g. “this interview performance is a good senior engineer, mediocre staff engineer” and I’ve never seen anyone try to derive these values from existing engineers at their company, or investigate what interview feedback correlates to success or failure and tinker with the process.
carterdmorgan@reddit
I don't think it's anything other than supply and demand. Lots of companies have done layoffs, flooding the market with talent. And with AI, a single engineer can get more done than they used to, making companies wonder if they need to hire as much as they did in the past.
Speaking anecdotally, working at a startup, we rejected a bunch of "good enough" candidates that we might have hired in the past. We're very concerned about hiring a potential slop cannon. An engineer's leverage has never been higher, both for better and for worse.
Clyde_Frag@reddit
A lot of this depends on the hiring funnel size. If there are a lot of people interested in the role, the company has to be pickier and apply arbitrary criteria to land on the candidate they find the most qualified. Being "most qualified" is a giant crapshoot.
Own-Chemist2228@reddit
These days many employers demand perfection.
I knew someone that had all the skills, but failed the interview because they said loops when the employer was expecting the term hoops.
It's ridiculous how picky they can be!
grimr5@reddit
All those boot camps, code grads are coming home to roost. The market is saturated and now AI is here