Move UPS or buy new

Posted by orion3311@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 35 comments

Office is moving into a new building, and I need to sort our power for server room. Our server room is essentially an MDF, it will barely have much in the way of servers (maybe 1-2 small VM hosts), but will host a handful of switches, internet gear, routers, fiber gear, and a handful of access points.

We currently have an older APC Symmetra 16KVA unit that has had new modules and batteries replaced over the years, however I feel like it might be overkill at this point, but offers the ability of good runtime. It also has a hard-wired 100amp circuit. The chassis is from 2008, but batteries, controller, and I think most if not all inverters have been replaced since then.

Note that the new server room would only handle half the building's infra, there would be a seperate IDF where I think a majority of the switching would live.

Better to buy new or possibly move this thing? Opinions?

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Jeff-J777@reddit

I would leave it, it is old. Then getting a 100amp circuit just to feed that thing might cost a lot. I have two 3000va /2700W CyberPower UPS that power our ISP modems, our firewalls, 3 Dell R740s, a Dell R730, 2 4 bay NASs, and 11 PoE+ switches, and each UPS is only a little over 50% load. They just use a 30amp twist lock.

I would not go APC for new. I would do Eator, Vertiv, or CyberPower. Maybe even look into lithium ion batteries. Sure the upfront might be more but over time the battery refresh won't be as often.

A client I had at the MSP had Eaton do an enegry study after we moved their server infrastructure to a colo. The study showed over 5 years maintaining the current UPSs would cost way more than downsizing. By going with a smaller UPS the battery refresh was less expensive, and the electric cost was way less to run the smaller UPS.

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orion3311@reddit (OP)

Thanks for that load example, I'm surprised they can run that much, but have you done a runtime cal to see how long it runs for?

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Arudinne@reddit

Runtimes only need to be long enough for one of two things to happen:

Cleanly shutdown your systems until the power is restored
Provide power until a generator can spin up.

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Jeff-J777@reddit

The UPSs estimated about 10 minutes of runtime. I could extend that if I needed to by adding some battery modules to the UPSs.

But my UPSs have generator backed power, so I just need them to keep everything on until the generator starts and the building transfer switch flips. But in 26 or 27 we are moving our VMs to Azure and then my server footprint goes way down, and so does my power consumption.

Now I have had a case where the power did flicker often enough for the generator to turn off and then to lose power for a few minutes and wait for the gen to start back up. During those cycles the UPSs were not recharging fast enough, so we just made the decision to force the generator on until the storm passed. But that only happened once.

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SpotlessCheetah@reddit

Buy a new one and switch to Vertiv.

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MenuPsychological853@reddit

A lifepo model at that

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SpotlessCheetah@reddit

Yes, I highly recommend lithium.

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Main_Ambassador_4985@reddit

Based on experience, APC/SE will not offer service plans or renewals on a chassis that is more than 10-years old.

I would leave it and get a smaller Vertiv UPS or another brand. I do not know what is good anymore, but it is not APC.

BTW: Vertiv SNMP is problematic at best after firmware updates to UPS and monitoring card.

We have a bunch of network closet GXT5 Lithium units and I regret it.

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SpotlessCheetah@reddit

What's wrong w/ your SNMP on GXT5? I have them, they're great.

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orion3311@reddit (OP)

Curious now as Vertiv looks good

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SpotlessCheetah@reddit

They are good. I'm happy with all the units we bought. 100 new lithium UPS systems in all of our racks and cabinets for 18 months now, no DOAs. 1 NIC needed an RMA that's it.

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stiffgerman@reddit

We abandoned a Symmetra 30KVA when we moved recently. It had been deployed for 10 years and had the battery strings replaced once and a few of the inverter modules also swapped. The new building got a new smaller UPS since we don't have the load we used to run.

I looked at reselling the old unit but nobody wanted it for more than scrap value and it would've cost quite a bit to disconnect and move it. Sometimes it's just better to let old stuff go.

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dartdoug@reddit

Were you renting the old space? If so, the landlord didn't charge your company for moving/disposal?

If I were the LL I certainly would have deducted the cost from your security deposit.

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stiffgerman@reddit

Nope. The building was slated for a full-on down-to-the-bare-floor renovation and paid us to get out by a certain date. We left a lot of stuff...floors of cubicles, odd furniture, etc. They had a few crews come in and recycle all the wiring, furinture, the works.

If we were in a place where the owner was just going to re-lease then, yes, we would've had to clean out all our stuff.

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Mindless_Fisherman68@reddit

A 16KVA Symmetra for one or two VM hosts plus a few switches and APs is massive overkill, you're realistically pulling 1.5-3kVA. Moving it is the worst of both worlds: it's a ~400lb chassis that wants a hardwired 100A circuit and an electrician, and once installed it idles under 20 percent load, which is inefficient and just wasted capacity you're cooling. Buy a right-sized 1.5-3kVA SmartUPS, plug it into a standard 20A receptacle, and you're done in an afternoon with better runtime granularity. Redeploy or sell the Symmetra. The only case for moving it is if you know that MDF is about to grow into several racks soon. Otherwise size to actual load plus ~30 percent headroom.

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tuvar_hiede@reddit

Buy new, hands down. I have my ups's scheduled for 1 battery swap and then replacement.

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sryan2k1@reddit

Well that's just dumb. It's not like the inverter magically goes bad.

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orion3311@reddit (OP)

I think this depends on what we're defining as a UPS; if its a little APC you get at Staples, sure. This Symmetra we have would cost 5 figures to replace and is fully modular. It prob does make sense to put a 5-10 year lifecycle on an intermediate one like a 2 or 3 KVA maybe.

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tuvar_hiede@reddit

I've had several fail in the racks. Batteries tested good, but generator test happened and they didn't keep the rack up. I'm looking at Lithium now to avoid the replacement battery and just replace the unit at the 10 year mark. I have a 15 year old Eaton we were going to service and they said it wasn't worth it. Was a larger unit, 60 batteries internally.

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MediumFIRE@reddit

same here

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F1x1on@reddit

IMO it depends on how your migration is slated to carry out. If you can handle the downtime while waiting on the new one being moved, wired up and confirm functionality then move it. If you need quick turn around or both sites up at the same time Id just buy new.

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Generico300@reddit

Depends on the cost to move it really. If that cost exceeds the cost of a new unit, get a new unit. Otherwise, move it. There's really no such thing as overkill on a UPS outside the cost of it. More runtime is always better.

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Accomplished_Sir_660@reddit

That symmetra is nice. I'd keep it.

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seanpmassey@reddit

Buy a new one to get set up, and then move the old one or keep it as a spare.

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gangaskan@reddit

Use main one for primary power and second for secondary power. Or role reversal if you don't trust the old one as much.

That way you have dual inline power filtering and ups backup. One can be on gen and one dosent.

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finalpolish808@reddit

That is an opportunity to scale down to two rackmount UPS.

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BigCatsAreYes@reddit

Move it. You have NO CLUE how reliable the power in your new place actually is untill you spend a couple months there.

Also It might be months before APC sends everything you need and electricians come out to hook everything up correctly. Parts could be one backorder, etc...

Hook up the old one, save the stress, and give yourself plenty of time to get a smaller replacement years down the line without worrying about it.

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orion3311@reddit (OP)

That was my thought (everything you mentioned), the problem I have is that this UPS requires a hard-wired connection (100a circuit) whereas the newer 2-3kva units leverage twist locks that are easier to deal with.

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Danowolf@reddit

You forgot to mention how much money is on the line per minute the servers and switches are down. Start with that first. Sounds like Alot of money is on the line. Buy new with appropriate warranty. Dual online conversion.

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greaseyknight2@reddit

Logistics often dictate this more than cost. Especially since this is a large item.

Since you have to Shut down the old location and start it up and the new. Having a long enough down time window can be a pain.

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