Learning to fly in a Baron 58P instead of a 172?

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BeechDude@reddit

The 58P is one of the most complex and hard-to-manage GA aircraft out there. It's also one of the most expensive to maintain and fly. Sure, it is possible to receive primary training in it, but the private pilot requirements require solo time, and there is absolutely no way I would sign off a student pilot to go solo in a 58P. That would be your CFI's decision, though. Of course, that would only be your CFI's decision if the plane were self-insured. If it is insured through any major insurance company, they would more than likely require a minimum of 50-70 hours of dual instruction before you solo it (I'm being optimistic there), and the premiums would more than double. When you work out the added cost of insurance, fuel (40-50gal/hr), and required insurance time to finish the rating, you would spend the same amount getting your initial PPL in the 58P as you would getting your PPL, INSTM, and a good chunk of your COMM done in a traditional training aircraft.

Practically speaking, the maneuver training, like stalls and slow flight, would be hard on the aircraft, and you would quickly run into maintenance issues since it was never intended to be a training aircraft.

Think of it this way, do you think it would be better to learn how to drive in an older Toyota Corolla, or a 71 Corvette Stingray?

Source: I'm a Beechcraft Pilot Proficiency standardized instructor pilot and have over 1000 hours of dual given in Beechcraft aircraft, including the 58P/58TC.

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faustsuja9@reddit (OP)

I totally understand the analogy and I have discussed this with him at length. I'd love to connect more with you on this.

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BeechDude@reddit

Feel free to DM me. I ran a multi-engine program for years and have done a few initial PPL ratings in Barons (but never a 58P).

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Willard730@reddit

There is some sort of parallel to doing ppl in a tailwheel. I did it in a Cessna 140. It took longer than learning in a trike for sure. I dont regret it, byt I am not sure I would recommend it.unless you arent in any hurry and arent particularly concerned about the cost of flying many more hours than the minimum before you solo.

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Neither-Way-4889@reddit

Students learn in C140s all the time, I've never heard of someone learning in a 58P. There is a world of difference between a simple little taildragger like a 140 and a twin engine turbocharged pressurized complex airplane.

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Willard730@reddit

I think the same basic conclusion applies to either plane. Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it? Only if you dont mind paying more and taking longer. In the case of the Baron, much longer. But it will be easier to land... if you can remember to put the gear down

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nhorvath@reddit

it might make sense to do your training in this aircraft but rent a pa-28 or 172 to solo in when the time comes to avoid crazy insurance costs.

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TristanwithaT@reddit

Then you might as well just do everything in the 172 or PA-28... need training per 61.87(d)(1-15) to solo in make and model. Plus switching between a twin and a single as a PPL student is a terrible idea.

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_VNAV_PTH_@reddit

Why would you solo an airplane you didn't train in?

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Mad_Rooster_7164@reddit

beechdude is really good. listen to whatever he says.

here are examples of things he says: https://www.youtube.com/@SethLakeDPE

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CluelessPilot1971@reddit

Think of it this way, do you think it would be better to learn how to drive in an older Toyota Corolla, or a 71 Corvette Stingray?

I'd say it's like learning how to ride a bicycle for the first time on one of these.

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Neither-Way-4889@reddit

Its like learning how to ride a motorcycle on a hayabusa. Sure you technically can, but you'll probably kill yourself before you become proficient.

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m00f@reddit

… a 71 Corvette Stingray that if you downshift incorrectly will steer you into the wall at 90 mph.

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acidreducer@reddit

I haven’t looked at the requirements in years, but I thought there was some verbiage on supervised solo in there somewhere, no? Please correct me if I’m wrong! (Or don’t cause I’m too lazy to look it up)

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JT-Av8or@reddit

I know a guy who did it. He retired as a surgeon around 50 and decided to become an airline pilot, so with ZERO experience he bought a POS Piper Aztec-C, dumped $200k into it to bring it up to speed and then started training in it, zero to ATP, so single engine time at all. Got hired by a regional too. No idea what happened to him after that.

You can learn to fly in a 757 is you have the money.

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faustsuja9@reddit (OP)

Interested to know if you know more on this.

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zeropapagolf@reddit

I can't imagine an insurance policy that would allow a student pilot to solo a 58P.

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Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit

Not sure how Part 61 handles it, but I know under my 141 multi-track we had "solo" lessons where the instructor would be in the plane but would be completely hands/mouth off. It was logged as PIC with no DG, but I don't recall if it tagged the solo column.

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IncadescentFish@reddit

supervised solo is a thing

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Neither-Way-4889@reddit

Its PDPIC, not "supervised solo"

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makgross@reddit

Solo has a definition, and it’s not PDPIC. It means the pilot is the only occupant, full stop.

PDPIC is an alternative to solo for commercial certificates, both single and multi. It is not for private pilot.

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GooseChungus@reddit

I dont think thats legal lol

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nhorvath@reddit

yup as a student pilot if it's not instruction recieved it's an illegal pax

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mkosmo@reddit

It's not. At all.

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Mispelled-This@reddit

PDPIC exception only applies to CPL solo time, not PPL solo time.

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srkjb@reddit

As far as I am aware that is only permitted for the purpose of commercial cross countries, it certainly does not count as solo time as well.

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Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit

That might be the rub. I only ever dealt with the commercial multi (add-on and multi track) level, and it was always the long ass "solo" XC. So they were few and far between. Worked with tons of primary students, but it was always in the 172.

And it was 15+ years ago.

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jet-setting@reddit

That’s not allowed in the US, 61 or 141 for student pilot solo.

Part 141 requires “solo” flight time. Solo is defined as the pilot being the only occupant of the airplane.

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makgross@reddit

That’s what PDPIC is for.

It *severely* stunts a student’s growth, making them afraid to fly solo.

Bad idea. As in really, really bad.

Too bad it doesn’t exist for the private pilot level…. It’s in 61.129.

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mild-blue-yonder@reddit

This plane is almost certainly uninsured

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Lost_Obligation2453@reddit

It's going to take a lot longer, but OP is in a unique situation.

If he isn't paying to rent it, and he doesn't have to pay for gas. All of a sudden hiring his own instructor/personal pilot to fly it with him for the first 300-500 hours might actually make sense.

500 hours of instruction and insurance will cover it. It's still going to be expensive, but not as expensive as paying for the airframe and fuel.

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400Volts@reddit

Either a straight up no or a truly nauseating number

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jimillid@reddit

Insane...

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Mission-Wasabi-7682@reddit

Serious question: if you do your training exclusively in a twin, you would not be allowed to fly a C172 or PA28 as you miss the type rating, correct?

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Dunnowhathatis@reddit

There is no type rating per se - but you'd be licensed to fly MEL, not SEL.

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Dunnowhathatis@reddit

Yeah no. You first need to THOROUGHLY understand the basics before you should go into a multi engine, especially a more powerful one like a Baron. Of course 'you' could do it, but you are setting yourself up for heavy disappointment at best, or a death at worst. Go conventional.

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rotardy@reddit

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say something that’s not typical of me.

If that guys willing to do primary training in a p baron you probably want to find a different instructor. He has terrible judgment.

If he’s offering to teach you in a primary trainer and then aggressively move you into the baron as you gain more knowledge and experience: different opinion.

It’s a terrible idea learning in a p baron.

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dakk33@reddit

Great point

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latedescent@reddit

100% this. Sounds like the IP just wants more multi time for his logbook or something.

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flyboy7700@reddit

No. This is a bad idea. If you have an engine problem before your stick and rudder skills are solid, you (and your instructor) will die. Multi-Engine instruction already is one of the most dangerous things you can do in an airplane, and that WITH a competent student.

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SimilarTranslator264@reddit

Don’t need a special policy until solo and by that time it’s either go or don’t go and roll the dice. Insurance on a 172 valued at $140k will go up 5x when it’s for “rental or instruction”. It doesn’t take much of that to just say screw it, unless the plane is financed.

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onnob@reddit

It's not a good idea to learn to fly in a multi-engine aircraft. You are much more likely to end up in a deadly accident. You need aeronautical experience to handle an aircraft like that.

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Attention_Deficit@reddit

My dad did this exact same thing in the 70s. He bought the plane and learned to fly it. He had to go back later for a single engine rating, which is pretty funny to me.

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jet-setting@reddit

Well, you could but when you get your PPL you will be restricted to only flying multi-engine airplanes until you add single engine.

You will have to drink from a firehose, and it will be exhausting learning at the speed required to stay ahead of that plane.

So it’s certainly possible, but unless this friend is offering all of this for free, I would suggest finding at least a flying club that has a more traditional trainer airplane available.

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faustsuja9@reddit (OP)

This would all be free. He is a close family friend (former NATO pilot and captain with several major airlines, cargo 747s, air ambulance, etc.)

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Infamous-Ad-140@reddit

At 800+ and hour he’s got money to throw away, he would essentially be going you $80-100k to maybe get your ppl. Just ask for the money and do ppl/instrument in a 172 for $35k and pocket the rest

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jet-setting@reddit

Well, free is free. Go for it I suppose. You will find it much more difficult, and you will probably be discouraged more quickly. Just listen to your instructor, and study hard at home.

But like others have said, you may want to check with him that his insurance will allow it. It will be an insanely high price to add primary student training and student solo to his multiengine airplane.

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faustsuja9@reddit (OP)

From what I know he was a foreign military pilot and did a lot of work with NATO in Africa, Middle East, and Asia. He has a wild background that has all been vetted. I believe it was a merger situation for the 2-3 airlines he was with. He apparently learned to fly with NATO and the RAF.

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SavingsPirate4495@reddit

You have received sound advice from those that say to go the C-172 route. I will echo their sentiment and also recommend that you get your Instrument Rating in the C-172.

If your plan is to progress further to your Commercial/Multi-Engine Rating, THEN you could perhaps consider stepping into the P-Baron for that.

Good luck!!

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bdc41@reddit

I did mult first then IFR. Didn’t have to do the single to twin IFR check ride.

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SavingsPirate4495@reddit

Yeah...some people do it in that order.

I did Private and Instrument SEL because I NEVER thought in a million years I'd pursue aviation for a career and need a Commercial/Multi; I was doing it "just for fun". :-)

23+ years later, here I sit in retirement from an aviation career that was my "3rd and a half" career. :-)

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bdc41@reddit

I stayed in engineering, probably should have gone into aviation.

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vagasportauthority@reddit

There is a constant pattern of pilots (usually wealthy ones) who get behind the controls of two much airplane and end up paying the price.

Too complex, too fast, too automated, too soon, and then they end up behind the airplane and hurt or possibly dead.

It’s not impossible to jump straight to multi and it’s not illegal, but there is an increased risk of becoming a statistic…

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Mike734@reddit

Any owner would be crazy to put those engines through the abuse of being a primary trainer. What you need is a school with about five 172’s so that you can switch airplanes at a moments notice to maintain your schedule. The last thing you need is to cancel a series of flight before the plane is down for maintenance.

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BozoThePilot@reddit

I'm only saying this because you're a student but how do you know he's experienced? Is it just that he has an ATP and a CFI? Many ATP CFIs have never taught in any high performance aircraft.

Now I've taught low time pilots in high performance singles. I've taught a low-ish time pilot in a Baron 55 but they already had a PPL and like 200 hours.

You need the right CFI for this to even start with. Also, you're probably going to need 100 hours before your insurance would even think of letting you solo.

If you really want to learn in a high performance airplane first then go learn in a Bonanza 36 or a SR22.

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Dano-Matic@reddit

Literally impossible.

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14Three8@reddit

No. Just, no. I instruct in a turbo baron, it is just a ton of plane. I have a lot of 250 hour commercial guys and even CFIs approaching atp minimums that struggle to stay ahead of the plane.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but at least get your private initial and instrument in a more docile single. Look at Juan Browne’s videos about the countless Baron VMC roll fatalities. Also, the maneuvers you have to perform for your checkride (think steep turns, ground reference maneuvers) have to be done within a specified altitude tolerance. This tolerance doesn’t get bigger for bigger planes that climb and descend altitude faster.

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N40189@reddit

That is not a great example. Most of the accidents are pilots who learned to fly a typical trainer.

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Dangerous_Mud4749@reddit

Someone with suitable aptitude can learn to fly in any aircraft. In theory, you could learn to fly in a Boeing airliner.

However, the more complex the aircraft, the more aptitude you need and the longer it will take. In a pressurised piston twin, going first solo will take a long time. You will need considerable mental fortitude to stick with the pre-solo phase for a long time, learning a laundry list of "must know / must master" which is far longer than the laundry list of items of other students in single engine, fixed gear, fixed pitch propeller, unpressurised aircraft.

But where you finally end up? The type of aircraft makes no difference.

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AdditionalWx314@reddit

There are so many more things to pay attention to and be proficient with in a complex twin like the 58P before you can solo it. In a simple single, I can have you flying the airplane proficiently in a few hours, including running throttle, mixture, taxi, radio and takeoff and landing. In the 58P, you have two throttles, two mixtures, two props, gear, engine sync, single engine flight, engine failure on departure, engine monitoring, vmc, and so much more. …and that is not even including pressurization and high altitude operations.

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South_Midnight3904@reddit

Don’t do it. You will never properly learn the basics. You have no idea what you don’t know at this stage. Fly some gliders, get in a conventional wheeled aircraft. Skip the high tech. Learn to fly

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latedescent@reddit

I flew cancelled checks in these solo at 1200 hours. I don't think training in one with zero experience is anywhere close to a good idea personally. Start in a single.

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rivermaster22@reddit

You would progress faster and more safely in the P2012 over the 58P if you were to end up in that airframe anyway. Fixed gear, FADEC if equipped with the Lycoming engines. Basically a twin engine 172 from a handling standpoint.

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CeznaFL30@reddit

There’s a reason you don’t go from crawling to sprinting. There’s a progression to everything.

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Crusoebear@reddit

How I picture the call to any reputable (non-mafia) insurance company:

”Primary training in a Baron 58? Including solo? Hahahahahahahahahahaha….(stops to breathe)…hahahahahahahaha….oh you're serious? Yeah….no. No-no-no. What are you nuts?” [click]

…but at least the insurance agent will have a great story to tell around the office.

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DisregardLogan@reddit

Something something MU-2 specific CFR

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FeedMeCrabs@reddit

There’s already a lot of great info here, but I’ll add my 2c as a newly minted 32yo PPL anyway. Learning how to fly was shockingly overwhelming to me for the first few hours. I honestly can’t imagine having to learn in a plane that requires 3(?) additional endorsements to fly. You’ll have a much better idea once you do your discovery flight in a (presumably) simpler plane. It sounds like you could even do another discovery flight in the baron just to compare.

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Turbulent-Bus3392@reddit

I had my full ATP multi, but only 100 something multi. Insurance said I needed 500 multi to be insured on 58P.

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redditburner_5000@reddit

Insurance will be a problem. No way they cover you to solo. You can still solo, but if you wreck it then they'll be out a Baron.

Learning in a twin is needlessly expensive and time consuming. A multi add on is maybe 15hrs after your single engine ppl.

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ashishvp@reddit

Hmmmmm. For a discovery flight, sure.

A few hours of basic lessons with the instructor as PIC, maybe.

Solo, absolutely not. Your first solo flight ever should not be in a multi. For your own safety. Your CFI is delusional if he approves that.

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IdahoAirplanes@reddit

Your next post during training will be “why am I always behind the airplane?”

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MeadyOker@reddit

My favorite joke I heard recently was someone say that they were so far behind the plane that if it crashed they'd be fine.

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Mispelled-This@reddit

Been there. I joined a club while an instrument student, and I wanted to get checked out in a complex/HP type. A few laps in the pattern, one gear extension, and then we had 9.5 more hours to kill for insurance mins. So why not try some approaches? It took me the entire 9.5 hours to barely meet standards because there was way more to do and way less time to do it.

On the plus side, when I got back into a 172, everything seemed to be moving in slow motion, and my IR checkride was a piece of cake.

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Perfect_Big_5907@reddit

Yeah i used to fly Lears and the old 20's we had that saying. They were so fast that you would still be at the departure airport when it crashed.

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citpilot1@reddit

I mean go for it, it’s going to be hard. You will probably get discouraged easily from constantly being behind. I also think you need to work out how solo flight is to be conducted. There’s NO way you are going to be insured and if you are as others have said the number is going to be nauseous.

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PILOT9000@reddit

Has this aircraft owner spoken to their insurance company about this yet?

And cost you nothing? Like you aren’t covering maintenance or anything? That’s quite the generous friend you have there.

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akav8r@reddit

This training will not cost me anything

I highly doubt some random friend of a friend/family member is going to pay for you to do your training... let alone in a 58. That is insane. I think you are very confused by what you are getting yourself into.

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poisonandtheremedy@reddit

I'm honestly surprised such an experienced pilot and instructor would suggest such a thing.

I've taught people how to ride motorcycles and I also have taught roadracing. I could teach you to ride on a 235hp superbike, but I certainly wouldn't recommend nor offer up my bike for the challenge.

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aftcg@reddit

Listen to what beechdude says because what I'll say is mean in comparison. I have plenty of time teaching and owning Barons If you can find an underwriter, learning to fly in a 58P is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. If you can keep the dispatch rate good, you're training is going to be hell on the airframe. The mx cost on a P is amazing. Your plan is not unsurmountable, but it's a waste of time, money, and aircraft.

Learn how to fly a plane designed for flight training, a tailwheel. Obviously, money is not an issue. So buy a Citabria, learn how to fly a real plane, and then move into the Baron. You'll be a better aiman.

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Cats155@reddit

That checkride would be something

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SSMDive@reddit

The good news is you will be so far behind the airplane that if it crashes you will not be anywhere near it when it hits.

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Perfect_Big_5907@reddit

As long as you don't have to pay for it give it a try. I do have Baron time and used to be an instructor. I did know one guy who learned on a Seneca because he bought it for himself and did not want to start with a single. Had loads of money and all the time in the world. That being said the systems etc. in a 172 are very simple and easy to operate. Easy to land . Very forgiving. Baron is none of those.

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RexFiller@reddit

I own a baron and there is 0% chance I would let a fresh student pilot anywhere near the controls. I cant imagine how the person you know would train you in a 58P. Maybe they own a 58P but would train you in another aircraft.

Also I believe DPEs have to have 5 hours in type to give a checkride so youd limit yourself a bit on ones that have 58P time.

Its not a good idea for time, cost, or safety.

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timfountain4444@reddit

The insurance company is going to be your problem... It's also going to be insanely expensive and task saturating as a student pilot.

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Adonde_Cuh@reddit

I am not an MEI but I did fly with a low time owner who moved from a Rocket 305 Mooney to a 58P.

I can’t imagine a scenario where a student flies that solo without an excessive amount of training

Learn in a normal trainer and then move into the Baron

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unisonic2025@reddit

Yeah that’s a hard NO. You are doing yourself a disfavor. Small single engine to start off. No need to prove to anyone that you got your private in a baron.

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faustsuja9@reddit (OP)

Not trying to prove anything to anyone. I was presented with this situation by family and this family friend.

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Kooky_Toe5629@reddit

58P Baron is complicated airplane. Learn the basics of flying before jumping into a 58P.

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Being_a_Mitch@reddit

There is no benefit worth training in a Baron as your first ever flying experience. Even if you "feel" good in it, you'll have no idea how behind the curve you actually are. Start small, build up. One of THE most common accident profiles is someone who does all of their training in a single, then swaps to a multi once they get their license, then crashes after awhile of flying it and getting lucky. What you're suggesting is skipping a whole step of that.

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zhelih@reddit

It is gonna be super expensive. Also in order to solo/get checkride ready you will have to learn significantly more things. Otherwise it is doable in theory. Depending where you fly you might need insurance (self insured sounds like the only option).

If you are serious about it, probably worth spending first 10 hours in a C-172 alike anyway to get the hang of basics without worrying about complex systems.

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GlideAwayOly@reddit

I’d want to know about the insurance situation before agreeing to it. I think it could be a good opportunity depending on the cost you’re paying. You could build twin time quickly. Adding SEL later wouldn’t be an issue. You should also have a serious conversation about what you want to do if things aren’t progressing well during training.

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PlusAd1446@reddit

If the cost isn’t so much you should be fine. Might take more than 40 hours. Most successful applicants I see have closer to 80 when they test.

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crimedog58@reddit

I mean I did 15 hours in a 172 before being tossed in a Baron, and about 15 hours in that before a King Air. And then I did 180 hours in a King Air sim. (Thanks Army!)

It’s a way. But maybe not optimal.

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Flyboy2020@reddit

You would not be the first. Depends on cost of access. It's going to take you 2-3x longer realistically. But if the plane cost is very low, might not matter

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hutthuttindabutt@reddit

Yea don’t do that. Walk before you run.

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BuzntFrog@reddit

^ This. There are many fundamentals you need to learn in a single engine before you jump into multi. If this hookup will be around you'll save plenty when you're ready.

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Avi-8-er@reddit

Wish I got drunk before reading this post

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400Volts@reddit

To put in in lawyer terms, it's like trying to teach someone to read English by throwing them into law school

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isellshit@reddit

It can be done I know of a pilot who learned in a King Air because that was the aircraft he planned to fly exclusively.

It will take longer and be a lot more expensive but there is nothing saying it can't be done.

A lot of people can swing the cash but time is valuable regardless of your financial situation.

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AlbiMappaMundi@reddit

If you have a ton of money, go for it. It's not a very practical or prudent idea, but there are people who have done initial training in multi-engine planes before. But there's a reason almost everyone starts in small, slow, single-engine trainers -- you're able to learn the fundamentals, the plane is docile, nothing happens too quickly, and you're spending the minimum amount of money.

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Complex-Brief69@reddit

Not a great idea. There’s a reason nearly every training program starts you in a slow single engine piston plane. Don’t try to skip steps.

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Important_Repeat_806@reddit

Is it possible sure. You will progress 4 times slower at 8 times the cost.

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Odd_Entertainment471@reddit

What they all said. The ability to slow everything down is a huge benefit of flying a trainer during training. You’ll be hanging off the tail of that Baron for the first 100 hours!

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MeadyOker@reddit

It's not the typical path because it's expensive to start in a multi.

No where does it say you have to start single engine before you do multi. That being said, EVERYTHING happens faster in a multi l. The benefits of a 172 are it's not a fast plane.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

I’m 32 and looking at starting flight training. Through family/friends I connected with a very experienced ATP/CFI who offered to train me, and the plane would likely be a Baron 58P instead of the typical 172 route.

I know that’s unconventional, which is why I’m asking here before I jump into it.

Would starting in a twin like that actually hurt my development as a pilot? Or does it mostly come down to the quality of instruction and how the training is approached?

I’m planning on doing a local discovery flight and starting ground school either way. Just curious what people with real experience think about this path.

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