Question for the Lady Pilots here!
Posted by CandyKat86@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 82 comments
So today I had my CAMEL ride, passed the ground, DPE said my walk around was flawless, and even knocked out some line items for the flight. I knew the morning prior to this I had started my period, and I’ve definitely had some pretty brutal cycles in the past, but as soon as we hopped in and started the engines, it got about 1000x worse than when I started. I spoke through all my procedures perfectly (DPE’s words) but the pain was so bad, it was interfering with my execution, and I ended up busting on maintaining heading during OEI.
Got home, turns out I had passed a decidual cast. I’d NEVER had this before, but my god it was terrible. Any lady pilots who’ve maybe been in a similar situation or have some insight, how exactly should I explain that shortcoming on an interview? I know 100% I should’ve turned the engines right off and communicated I was having a health issue (but I always struggled with communicating THIS specific health issue to male superiors).
I would also like to note: I’ve been searching for a doctor in order to have my uterus removed, as it continues to interfere with my progress and I don’t want kids anyways, so any misogyny about how this is why women shouldn’t fly (because yes, I’ve heard it to my face) will not be tolerated.
NateDawgCinema@reddit
I think in the future, just express what’s going on. Men are humans too who, many of them, have wife’s and daughters. This is not some obscene gross thing. The majority, if not, all men will understand this completely natural event that happens to women. Don’t let “because he’s a man” cloud your judgment in the future. Not a great and healthy aviation mindset to have. Sounds like you did great though, keep it up!
Yuri909@reddit
Wives*
A_Squid_A_Dog@reddit
Especially in the airline industry
autonym@reddit
*wives
The asterisk comes before, not after. That's because the idea is to pretend the correction is a footnote. When a text item is footnoted, one asterisk appears immediately after the footnoted item, and then a matching asterisk appears immediately before the footnote itself, which is usually at the bottom of the page.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
I like this, thank you! Just to reiterate what I said in a different reply, the only reason I have that conflicting mindset is because I have been shamed in the past for cancelling flights due to unbearable cramps.
LightedAirway@reddit
This seems like a situation where one of my common mantras is appropriate - I will be as transparent with someone as they’ve shown me they can handle.
There is excellent advice here already that doesn’t involve being this level of candid. If you know the person and know that you can trust them with the full truth, then fine - go this route. Otherwise, the more generic route is much safer way to go.
They should NOT care or penalize you for normal bodily functions. That doesn’t mean they won’t.
Bunslow@reddit
To rephrase my top level comment, in the modern world, medical information is strictly confidential and strictly final. You don't have to tell anyone, ever, for any reason, why you're medically unfit to fly, only that you are -- and they have no reason to argue that point with you either.
(And obviously, if you do choose to share, they have no right to second guess it either. Medical non-fitness is solely and absolutely in the self's hands, whether flying a 747 or a 152.)
If they do argue, then simply repeat the mantra "medical information is confidential, and non-fitness is final". Whatever argument they come up with, those are the only real words that should be said in reply.
trimix4work@reddit
So just a note: i think you mean "cyst" not "cast". Idk, everybody seems to understand what you are saying anyway
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
It’s cast. Deciduous cast.
trimix4work@reddit
Ah, ok til. I googled it and got
"The term "decidual cyst" generally refers to a small, fluid-filled pocket that develops within the uterine lining (the decidua) or the placenta. In clinical practice, these cysts are typically encountered in two main contexts, both closely tied to pregnancy and hormonal"
PILOT9000@reddit
You were downvoted for correcting someone about something when you had no idea what you were talking about yourself.
trimix4work@reddit
Fair enough. In my defense i DID Google it first.
I was trying to help op, not be snarky or anything
MehCFI@reddit
Don’t go into detail on the interview- you had a medical event that you should have discontinued or postponed the checkride for, but had some get-there-itis.
UnfortunateSnort12@reddit
This right here. As simple as that. It’s a lesson you learned, and it’s easily explained.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Honestly this is kinda the direction I was leaning, so thank you!
flyboy130@reddit
AND how that experience changed your behavior and recognition of get there itis. Maybe a short example of where you listened to your body and canceled/delayed instead of forcing it.
Show them that you learned a lesson and you walk the walk now.
bofhgirl@reddit
Female student here, and can sympathize with you so very much. I'm at perimenopausal age, and things are already starting to get irregular and annoying, I think half of my lessons I've gone up with cramps or heavy bleeding. So far I've been able to fly without any major pain (knock on wood), but I know that if I were in that much pain I would self ground. I also wish I could yeet the uterus (yeeterus?) just to avoid having to deal with this ever again. I have no kids, and am too old for them now anyway, so no point in keeping this thing anymore.
I think because this is something most of us women have to deal with for 30-40 years of our lives, we're conditioned to just push through it, cause it's gonna happen anyway. And I can see that's what you tried to do here, and I probably would have done the same. I don't think you did anything wrong, and you now have another datapoint for your personal IMSAFE checklist, and if the pain does get that bad at a point where you're still not airborne, you can abort the flight and take care of yourself.
You have my sympathy and many hugs. I wish you rest and heat packs and hope the pain passes quickly.
buriedupsidedown@reddit
Im also a woman and though I’ve personally never experienced that, I’ve seen others with health issues during initial, upgrade, and cq and people constantly try and ride them out. It’s a bad spot to be in.
Like others have said, you may want to explain that you had an unexpected medical issue and you didn’t perform to your usual standards. That you should have assessed yourself, and though a difficult decision, you should have communicated the need to reschedule. From a safety and responsibility standpoint you’ve been more proactive about evaluating your health and recognizing your personal limitations.
Smoothridetothe5@reddit
I'm sorry hear your struggles. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything when I say that I haven't met any female pilots who had problems getting hired because of a check ride failure. In other words, I doubt this will have much of a negative impact on your pilot career.
The more concerning thing I read in your post was about removing your uterus. That would impact your life more negatively than any check ride failure ever would. There are more and more women who give up everything to have a career and then when they're older, they seriously regret it. That's a decision that would be permanent. And you might not feel the same way in a decade or two.
The pilot career is great but it's not everything. Once you get to the airlines or whatever pilot job you want to do, you'll realize that it's nice and all, but there's more enjoyable things you'd rather be doing. It's like you climb the ladder and you make it and you realize, oh, this is it? Okay cool. Now I want to go home lol. So be really careful about that kind of decision.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Nope! I’ve known since I was able to comprehend childbirth that I don’t care for it. I definitely won’t regret it. If I somehow miraculously change my mind, I’m a huge advocate for adoption and would have no issues going with that option!
Issue is everyone seems to want to think for me instead of trusting that a grown adult knows what she wants.
Visible-Choice-5414@reddit
It’s bc people have experienced that and over time changed their views. My own sister said everything you just commented here. For decades. She had a child and is immensely fulfilled. The brain continues to change even to age 35 for some profiles, not 22-24 like scientists previously believed. No one wants to think for you or pressure you. Sometimes people just recognize certain pathways from their own journey.
Soggy_Vast230@reddit
My wife struggles with PCOS as well. Unfortunately the only thing that helps her is marijuana! That’s not really an option for us pilots. I would be honest with your future employers and tell them the truth:
I was dealing with some painful female health issues the day of the checkride. While it started as minor, it progressed during the checkride to a point where I should have elected to discontinue. In retrospect I learned that I should always be sure to carefully consider how I’m feeling before i go to fly, even if something starts as mild, it may progress to a point during my duty that could present problems.
Lots of people (men) will tell you that you broke the first rule of IMSAFE or whatever but I think we’re all bullshitting ourselves, as I’m sure I’m not the only one that has reported for duty while not feeling 100%. It’s a stupid man mindset that we have. I have FO’s show up sometimes and go “I’m dealing with a bit of an illness” go home dude. I don’t want to fly with you and get sick. lol. There’s lots of pressure in the moment to “complete the mission” and sometimes you have to learn the hard way. For me, it was going up with a student as a CFI when I was congested from a cold. We did a simulated emergency descent from 8500 feet and I couldn’t get my ear to pop. Quite literally the worst pain I’ve ever felt in an airplane. Couldn’t pop my ear for a week after that. I just got lucky it didn’t happen on a checkride.
DougPiranha1@reddit
I have nothing useful to add about talking to a DPE, but I would suggest going slow with having your uterus removed. Surgery is surgery. There are lots of ways to reduce or stop menstrual cramps while still having a uterus. These include continuous oral contraceptives or a hormone containing IUD. The latter has almost no hormone getting to the rest of the body.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
I have unfortunately tried all of that to no avail 😅
DougPiranha1@reddit
Oh, well, dangers of trying to give medical advice on Reddit! Good luck and don't let anyone make you feel bad because you have a medical issue that only affects women. There are plenty of medical issues that only affect men!
Vincent-the-great@reddit
As per what others have said, this isn’t related to your gender this was an ADM scenario. Learn from it and grow.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
I mean, I really only brought gender into it in order to hear from women who can actually fully understand my situation 🥲 nothing against men, as most of yall are chill. It’s more so a relatability thing here specifically.
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
So first question. Why did you continue when it was so bad?
No-Pickle8259@reddit
As a woman, I get it. We are expected to go about our daily lives when we get our periods. We can’t call out every month no matter how horrendous the cramps and bleeding are. Then we go to the doctor and they usually have no options for us. I’ve been there, I probably would have continued too. I do my job every month while I’m in pain and bleeding. In a male dominated field, the pressure is even greater to grin and bear it.
I wanna say thanks for posting this. My own periods have made me hesitate going down the commercial pilot career path. I’ve wondered how other women deal with it.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
I’m so glad someone sees where I was coming from with being hesitant to discontinue! I’m just so used to sucking it up that I just continued pushing through until it was too late and I realized I was in an abnormal situation!
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
BC for me
No-Pickle8259@reddit
BC unfortunately makes me emotionally unstable. Would rather deal with cramps than feeling like I'm losing my mind and risk losing my medical.
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
I’ve heard antihistamines work for some women. They start taking them a few days before their cycle. Obviously you’d have to double check if the type is safe to fly with. Don’t mean to keep giving you unsolicited advice.. but just learned about it and wanted to pass it on in case you didn’t know
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
Understandable. I hope you figure out something that works for you one day
NoRadio4530@reddit
My cramps used to give me extreme vertigo, chills, sweats, vomiting, and diarrhea all at once. It was like I had an insane flu every single month and would spend at least an hour straight in the bathroom with my head in the toilet.
I've always just pushed through it. I've thrown up at every single job I've ever worked at then came back out to finish my tasks.
For unknown reasons my period just decided to change for the better. I still take preemptive Advil because the cramps are bad but it's not debilitating anymore. I went on and started flight training at 27 years old and now I'm in commercial training and almost done my night rating :)
Flat-Document-6352@reddit
Because we are conditioned to live our lives “normally” while we endure so much paid on a regular basis.
She probably thought it was another day with extreme cramps
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Exactly this! I had no clue it was going to progress to be as bad as it ended up being.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
The pressure to finish and the stigma around women having periods being normal and they should be able to continue to go about life while it’s occurring tbh. I’ve been shamed in the past for cancelling due to bad cramps and I just didn’t think I could handle it on a checkride.
81Horse@reddit
If you get asked questions like this in an interview, you say:
"I was fully prepared and eager to fly this checkride. Initially I thought the pain was manageable. It turned out to be a rapid-onset, extremely rare gynecological issue that couldn't have been predicted. It felt too personal to discuss with the examiner but giving them more information would have helped their understanding of my performance. I've followed up with a medical specialist and have no worries about a recurrence. .... And my subsequent checkride went great. .... Next question?"
tehmightyengineer@reddit
As a guy who's not squeamish at all and regularly chats with my wife about her period, I had no idea a decidual cast was even a thing. Seeing how bad my wife's periods can be, that must have fucking sucked. I respect the effort to grit your teeth through it; though obviously now you know you should have cancelled. Anyway, just wanted to say there's (hopefully) more guys like me out in your career that understand periods suck and are very debilitating but are also perfectly normal and we should be more supportive of it. Hope you get your questions answered.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
You absolute G 🤝
Bunslow@reddit
Part of being a pilot means knowing when you're fit to fly and not fit to fly -- lady or not, tall or short, black or white or red or blue or brown.
Now you know. Next time that something medically strange happens, in that moment, recognize that it impacts your fitness in that moment. Discontinue.
As for post-facto, well, after you've learned the lesson, then it's a non-issue basically.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Beautifully put
DDX1837@reddit
"CAMEL ride"???
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Yup! My school calls it CAMEL. Unsure what confusion there is.
rkba260@reddit
That's not an acronym I've heard before either. Comm-Multi Comm-Single is typically what I've heard it called.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Yeah idk I’ve only ever heard it referred to as CAMEL and CASEL. Commercial Airplane Multi/Single Engine Land lol
DDX1837@reddit
Not confused. I just never heard it as an acronym.
mr_eddit@reddit
You're obviously not a golfer..
Commercial airplane multi engine land
DDX1837@reddit
Actually, I.do golf.
No idea what that has to with flying.
IGoUnseen@reddit
It's a Big Lebowski reference, if case you're not familiar.
JijiSpitz@reddit
I’ve been in this sub for nearly 10 years and, unfortunately, the only one dropping the statement “why women shouldn’t fly”. Despite your unfortunate menstrual cycle, this is not a “lady pilot” issue.
The IMSAFE checklist applies to everyone, always. If you’re experiencing a medical condition that is affecting your ability to fly, everyone has the responsibility to get to the ground safely.
To answer your question: well, did you learn the above statement to be true? Typically how we move on from mistakes or failures is with learned lessons.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
I’m glad to hear that people don’t have that mindset in here! I don’t post very much on Reddit so I wasn’t sure and wanted to pad the blow haha. As I said, I definitely should’ve just turned the engines off and tried again another day.
ananajakq@reddit
32F. Been flying 14 years .. and I can confirm NO ONE feels women shouldn’t fly. It’s not as bad as you think out there. This is a personal bias / imposter syndrome speaking. Yea there are definitely some crusty old guy but they’re mostly gone now and they were dicks to everyone not just the women. I can tell u it’s a very inclusive work environment being at a major airline as a woman.
1213Alpha@reddit
Oh, plenty of people believe it and they make their voices known on the internet, but they're cowardly idiots who know that if they said it in front of people who actually are in the industry they're likely to have a bad day.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
This right here lol
Imlooloo@reddit
Not a woman, but I figure once you have had to figure out how to emergency shit in an expandable blue airsickness bag that you pulled from the backseat on a 172 while still flying, you can deal with just about anything. It happens, so how do you deal with things that are unexpected? That’s key. Basically, deal with it and don’t stop flying, navigating and communicating, no matter what.
At the end of the day the DPE is evaluating your performance to do things professionally, thoughtfully and within perimeters. What are you going to do when you have this period issue in an A320 on final? How you deal with the unexpected is difficult to evaluate but the unexpected happens!
CoomassieBlue@reddit
Apart from the aviation side, there are some good resources out there from OBGYNs active on social media providing directories of physicians who are more progressive in their approaches to patient care.
You may want to see if Dr. Fran Haydanek’s social media channels have any resources that might help you in finding a doctor who will work with you on this.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Bless you, thank you!
47clove@reddit
Also check out the CF-friendly doctors list on r/childfree. Would be a good starting place as well
CoomassieBlue@reddit
Happy to be able to help! Best wishes 💕
indianmcflyer@reddit
Bruh. TMI
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Notice how it says for “lady pilots” not “everyone”. No one forced you to click.
natbornk@reddit
What a tool, lol. As a male, I want to let you know that most of us have wives, sisters, daughters, etc. It’s perfectly OK for you to say you’re having some lady problems and need to go. The vast majority of us will understand and if anybody asks, we’ll keep it between us. Not that guy, apparently.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Hey we appreciate guys like you 🤝
Frequent-Cicada-2938@reddit
Are you, or do you self-identify as a lady pilot ? 🤨
TheAnonymousPilot@reddit
Heya there! I'm going to pretty much reiterate what's been said here by everyone else: the most important part of this experience is the "IMSAFE" takeaway. Interviewers want to see what you learned and how you moved past the blemishes on your record.
Yes, there's a TONNN of pressure a woman in this field to push on despite anything women's-health specific, but you have to free yourself from that mentality. A health problem is a health problem. When I started flight training I was horrified about the idea that my cycle or horomones could potentially effect my flying- especially when an older gentleman once told me that's exactly why women shouldn't be allowed to fly.
I see that you're a CFII, so I'd recommend that in the future, if you have a medical issue like this, give it the perspective of 'if I had a student going for their checkride and they told me about this in the lobby, would I encourage them to "tough it out" or discontinue?'
Sorry that this happened to you, and I hope you're able to successfully reattempt another day :)
VillageIdiotsAgent@reddit
This is less for you, because I know YOU know this: but to some of the other commenters:
Misogyny is very real in this industry. You can’t just dismiss it because “most” people aren’t like that. That doesn’t matter. Some are. And experiencing it is traumatic. That affects behavior and decisions later, even if it were just one encounter with it (although I’d be surprised if it were only once.)
Saying anything like “don’t worry, most of us aren’t assholes” is dismissive. It is diminishing the negative experiences that women very much encounter.
Jwylde2@reddit
Sounds like you neglected the very first component of your IMSAFE checklist -
I - Illness M - Medication S - Stress A - Alcohol F - Fatigue E - Emotion
The thing you know about yourself is that you have a pattern of pretty brutal cycles. You just started your cycle the day before. You maybe should have considered postponing the flight until sometime after your cycle.
But you DEFINITELY should have discontinued the second you felt the first symptom.
When it comes to aviation safety, undesirable period symptoms are no different than any other illness symptoms and should be treated as such.
mustang__1@reddit
You never have to tell someone why/how you're sick. "I don't feel well" is enough. If it's enough for a cold, it's enough for your period.
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
r/childfree has a list of doctors in their “about” menu willing to provide sterilization-adjacent procedures to women. Sorry about the checkride.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
I’ll check it out!
greaseorbounce@reddit
"I was ill, and tried to push through for the checkride. I learned a valuable lesson the hard way about the importance of IMSAFE, and my ADM has improved as a result of that lesson."
You shouldn't have issue communicating this specific medical issue to a male superior, because you should not need to specify what medical issue you're facing. "I don't feel well, and I'm choosing not to act as PIC as a result."
What medical event ailed you is your own business, or at most between you and your AME, not anyone you interview with.
The other note is that any checkride is stressful, and stress can absolutely exacerbate symptoms of many medical things. That's part of why it is in the IMSAFE checklist. In this case you likely got smacked by a two-for-one. Take it as a lesson, be honest that you've learned from it, and don't ever hesitate to request a discontinuance in the future, or cancel a flight even last minute if you don't feel well.
Being a Lady has absolutely nothing to do with any of this; anyone can be not feeling well, and anyone can try to push through when they shouldn't. Anyone who tries to make this about gender should be properly smacked.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
IceBlock12@reddit
That is WILD that people have said things like that to your face.. I have 2 daughters and I hope to teach them to fly when they’re older! We need more female pilots out there!
SilentPlatypus_@reddit
Thankfully most pilots don't think this way, or at least have the presence of mind not to say it out loud. However, there are enough out there that most female pilots have heard it a few times in their career. I encountered it more in flight training, because once you have a few years in the industry and a few thousand hours under your belt it's harder for people to question whether you can do the job.
CoomassieBlue@reddit
There are always at least a few people who say wildly moronic shit in male-dominated career fields or hobbies. It is not exclusive to aviation, and it’s increasingly less common, but it’s still the reality.
You learn not to let it bother you but it’s definitely still wild at times.
vivalicious16@reddit
Yay fellow female pilot! Passing a decidual cast on a checkride is insane. A ton of people bust a checkride or two and still get hired. Women and our damn periods lol, I have a couple horror stories in the plane but not as bad as a decidual cast!
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Lol girl it was crazy! I was like ofc this is my luck 😭🤦♀️
81Horse@reddit
"I was not feeling well and was in pain, and in retrospect I should have stopped the checkride. This was a difficult lesson to learn. I am much more mindful of monitoring my health and fitness now, which is a positive development."
No ethical interviewer would ever inquire about what, exactly, your medical condition was.
Find a good obgyn practice in your area that is female-centered and has a specialist in dysmenorrhea. Ask to be seen quickly. A decidual cast is incredibly rare, though probably harmless.
CandyKat86@reddit (OP)
Perfect, I’d agree with that wholly, thank you for the insight!
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
So today I had my CAMEL ride, passed the ground, DPE said my walk around was flawless, and even knocked out some line items for the flight. I knew the morning prior to this I had started my period, and I’ve definitely had some pretty brutal cycles in the past, but as soon as we hopped in and started the engines, it got about 1000x worse than when I started. I spoke through all my procedures perfectly (DPE’s words) but the pain was so bad, it was interfering with my execution, and I ended up busting on maintaining heading during OEI.
Got home, turns out I had passed a decidual cast. I’d NEVER had this before, but my god it was terrible. Any lady pilots who’ve maybe been in a similar situation or have some insight, how exactly should I explain that shortcoming on an interview? I know 100% I should’ve turned the engines right off and communicated I was having a health issue (but I always struggled with communicating THIS specific health issue to male superiors).
I would also like to note: I’ve been searching for a doctor in order to have my uterus removed, as it continues to interfere with my progress and I don’t want kids anyways, so any misogyny about how this is why women shouldn’t fly (because yes, I’ve heard it to my face) will not be tolerated.
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