Massie's moment of clarity
Posted by -lousyd@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 32 comments
"All this time," [Massie explained](https://reason.com/2017/03/15/thomas-massies-unified-theory-of-ron-pau/), "I thought they were voting for libertarian Republicans. But after some soul searching I realized when they voted for Rand and Ron and me in these primaries, they weren't voting for libertarian ideas—they were voting for the craziest son of a bitch in the race. And Donald Trump won best in class, as we had up until he came along."
Massie has been better than most/all other Republicans. But he's still Republican, and the fact that he chose to remain so under Trump for all these years says a lot about who he is. He's disappointed in voters, but he is that voter.
Crazy_names@reddit
If you have a friend that keeps you in check from running off the rails. The friend that says "hey buddy, maybe switch to water you've drank enough tonight." Or "hey man, your wife is waiting at home leave that stripper alone." You shouldn't kick that friend out of your life. Masie was the friend in the GOP telling everyone "hey guys, we are supposed to be fiscally conservative." "Hey guys we are supposed to be protecting individual rights." And they kicked him out. God help them if they cant help themselves.
user_1729@reddit
The problem was he was totally ineffective with this. He wasn't their "friend" in your scenario, he was like a crazy guy with a sign outside a bar telling them they're going to hell. He wasn't up there saying "hey fellow republicans, let's make these adjustments to this bill that would save the country a lot of money while still moving our agenda forward". He'd just say "You guys suck and this bill sucks, fuck you" and vote with the democrats then go hype himself on TV. Rand is much more practical, he will suck it up on some bills to move policies through. Good for Massie that he's principled enough to not move on that, but he ultimately is his own worst enemy.
His schtick is great when the minority was grouped together or they had a comfortable majority. When he was the deciding vote he had critical opportunities to affect change, and instead he just went on TV and complained about things without actually working with his party to get better bills. I love his principles, but he's a shitty politician. Also, I get the strange bedfellows, but his opposition to Israel got too far. He ended up with literal neo-nazi's at his house making pizza and giving them tours. The line between being opposed to Israeli influence in US politics and being a full blown antisemite is a tough one to walk, and he did not manage that well. He has bad instincts and it really showed in this election.
wallyhud@reddit
Why doesn't this comment have more up votes? Individualism and fiscal responsibility hand been the rally cry for Republicans for as long as I can remember. Trump looked eighth at the republican voter and said that he'd move the US that direction.
JnnyRuthless@reddit
I mean, that's what they say. But most Republicans in my lifetime (I'm 45) have always raised the debt and expenditures, and been happy to curtail individual rights.
I'm not saying you personally, but man, people have to stop listening to these chcukleheads and actually look at some history and how they've acted when in power.
Trump did the same thing his first term. No surprises here.
AllLeftiesHere@reddit
Assume Israel bot
gridlock1024@reddit
FANTASTIC explanation of this. Thank you
Cyclonepride@reddit
The fact of the matter is that the uniparty rigged the entire election process in their favor, so the option is either to try to fight within the system to expose the duplicity or just be out of the system entirely
CCWaterBug@reddit
Fwiw, the uniparty did that sure, but when 3rd party candidate's are on the ballot hardly anyone votes for them. Without better candidate's and a better platform, none of the obstacles in place are the true problem.
Cyclonepride@reddit
Once they run through the hoops of ballot access in each and every state, then they have to overcome virtual media blackouts and an avalanche of misinformation that the media will also fail to correct. Add to that the constant mantra being drilled into every American head for generations that you are wasting your vote, and even a fantastic candidate faces a huge uphill struggle. It would require someone with really, really good name recognition and huge donors behind them.
CCWaterBug@reddit
Sure, but seriously let's admit that winning on the national stage is virtually impossible without the absolutely perfect candidate and a billion.
Fk all that noise.about potus.
Just win a handful of house seatachievable. Only one senate seat, actually win something measurable and most importantly acheivable.
If the libertarian party.cant at LEAST elect a candidate in some random cherry picked house seat then what's the point?
Cyclonepride@reddit
I honestly don't know that any national office is achievable. A libertarian in congress would get no appointed committees, and would get little if any input on bills.
I'm at the point where I think the resistance has to be ground level and local. The Feds suck up all the money and then dole it out for compliance, and local officials lap it up regardless of how stupid and wasteful that thing is. We have to make their lives miserable to the point where they start refusing the money, and then work at the state level to do the same.
CCWaterBug@reddit
Ya, I agree but good luck with that, money talks.
At this point my potus libertarian vote is just a protest vote, but I'm ok with that.
Most ballots don't have one anyway so then it's whatever candidate might have some libertarian values.
I find it funny when people get upset when their candidate loses, because my candidate's tend to lose about 80% of the time, I'm used to it now.
Cyclonepride@reddit
I don't think I've picked a winning candidate in decades. Money talks, but it doesn't live in the same town as you, and see you at the store, or the park, or at city hall.
CCWaterBug@reddit
So start small, ignore the national stage and hyper focus all the efforts to put just a few candidates out there with a chance.
Anyway, bottom line I agree mostly with these principles but the numbers just aren't there.
If a centrist party actually develops I'm interested.
Likestoreadcomments@reddit
They just blatantly lied their asses off and convinced a whole bunch of retarded boomers to go along with it.
The AI squad throuple video, the lying about his voting record, the classic dirty false accusations playbook was in full effect as well. Oh and using the Kamala tactic of ducking debates, because they know they just put up a mindless rubber stamp yes man who would never survive 20 seconds in a debate with Tom. Then theres the epstein class billionaires and miriam adelson. Apparently boomers thought it was more patriotic to back a candidate funded by an israeli gangster who made billions off of casinos in china and other billionaires associated with Epstein than you know, being America first.
cathercules@reddit
Oh good I was wondering how this was Kamala’s fault
Likestoreadcomments@reddit
I’m not blaming this on Kamala I’m saying he used similar tactics. Reading comprehension is cool
Heavy-Bell-2035@reddit
I don't know what the way forward is, but at this point I hope it's clear to libertarians that 'working within the system' is essentially pointless, and I especially hope libertarians start realizing there is no alliance to be had with Republicans. They always revert to their statist roots, they always let the nut job Christian moralists run roughshod over everyone, they always end up supporting and starting more wars, and they always bow to Israel. It's been decades of various 'paleo strategy' attempts, every single one a failure. Enough of this crap. Libertarianism and conservatism are not the same. There are no alliances to be had with conservatives regardless of some similarities in rhetoric. There has to be another path forward and as a prerequisite it has to involve telling right wing cultural conservatives, especially the religious ones, to go to hell. They have nothing to offer, and whenever they get even a whiff of power they immediately revert to their totalitarian instincts. The religious ones especially, and almost uniquely those who explicitly identify as Christian, always and without fail turn out to be the most ghoulish and bloodthirsty warmongers. The Prince of Peace my ass, the plurality of his followers paint a far different picture.
Libertarianism and anarcho capitalism have always been built on solid foundations of understanding the non aggression principle and its application to various scenarios, but also the fundamentals of economics and how economies actually function, and there's a fundamental problem there when it comes to conservatism because you can't have a free, dynamic, wealth generating economy coupled with the static culture conservatives demand. Any sociopolitical philosophy that can't deal with the fact that people will choose to live in different ways, and that they are free to do so as long as they aren't coercing anyone else, isn't compatible at a fundamental level with libertarianism. You can't 'get something done' through an alliance with such people because they will always be demanding compromises that metastasize through any movement you create and ultimately destroy it with totalitarian cancer.
Whatever the way forward is, maybe it's agorism of some kind, it 100% has to disavow cultural conservatism and stop trying to make excuses for their particular brand of totalitarianism. It needs to stop buying in to moral panics whether they originate in the right or the left and start presenting solutions to people.
RedditThrowaway-1984@reddit
I don’t think voters are looking for the craziest son of a bitch. I think voters want change/improvement in their lives and they know that establishment candidates won’t deliver on that. So they look for candidates who they think will buck the system that’s rigged against them.
sagefrogphotography@reddit
Exactly it, I think. Fall is going to be a bloodbath for (mostly Republican) incumbents. I think the GOP knew that Massie was leaving one way or another, so their best shot is a different Republican.
Cyclonepride@reddit
I agree, though it wasn't about winning that seat so much as it was making a point. Either kiss the ring regardless of what you're told to do, or you're out.
CCWaterBug@reddit
Isn't this the same issue as Fetterman? In 2027 the left is going to throw everything they can to get rid of him.
unfortunateavacado24@reddit
Yes. Modern political parties have become cults. If you question the official narrative, you're a traitor and an enemy, and must be kicked out.
CCWaterBug@reddit
I personally hate that term, sure there are crazies out there but they represent a small amount of actual people. The vocal minority, ugh. On paper it's absolute great, but it can also be very.cringe.
Max_284@reddit
No way Massie was losing in November had he won the primary.
mack_dd@reddit
All I can say to that is "Afroman 2028"
aprx4@reddit
And what is he supposed to do? Run as indy/libertarian and enjoy 2% of votes?
wallyhud@reddit
Ron Paul also chose to run as a Republican throughout his time in Congress. The whole time he stuck to his values. His brand of libertarianism is what most libertarians want.
-lousyd@reddit (OP)
Act on his conscience, which he did.
I must've missed that.
anathemise@reddit
Acting on his conscience would mean fewer libertarians with any power.
Pmjc2ca3@reddit
Okay, but a lot of Libertarians seem to be out of touch with these staunch Republicans. My dad is a staunch Republican, not a band wagon populist type but a long time Christian Republican and I grew up around them. Their ideals don't agree with the Massie type Libertarian Republicans on drugs, gay marriage, Israel, and a lot of them still support Trump. It’s like Bernie with old school Democrats.
CryingEagle626@reddit
Right time wrong man. Voters want change but Trump was the only one to see it and take it. Ain’t nothing wrong with a Trump voter. Hell they probably have a lot in common with a democrat voter. Everyone wants the establishment to go bye bye. We just got screwed with a back stabber as the guy who promised to send it out the window.