Serbian and Bulgarian broke the international phonetic alphabet. Which one do you agree with?
Posted by shervek@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 148 comments
The international phonetic alphabet is one of the most powerful instruments linguists have. Its point is to transcribe the same sounds in the same way.
The Bulgarian and Serbian words for "first" are pronounced EXACTLY the same. However, IPA officially transcribed them differently as you see above.
This is because linguists argued and didn't agree whether "r" is a syllabic R, with vowel quality and therefore not two different sounds (Serbian, Macedonian position) or two different sounds, one of which is fully fledged vowel, functional and stressed, and the other is just a consonant, the rhotic R, not some sort of a magic phoneme that sometimes is a vowel and sometimes consonant (Bulgarian position).
Serbian and abukgriaj broke IPA and its whole point. You know have a word equally pronounced but differently transcribed in IPA symbols.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
i agree with bulgarians in this, r is not a vowel
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
What are you talking about? Trst, prst, krst all have not vowels and r acts as a vowel. This is just how people speak and there is nothing wrong there, we are not going to artificially introduce a "half" vowel schwa that sounds like you have been hit in the stomach just for your sake.
komunjist@reddit
The best way to explain this is to hear how the choir sings the Hymn of Saint Sava. The part “pojte mu Srbi” is never sung as Srrrrrrbi, but as Sъъъъrbi. That’s because of fat/debelo jer. If we truly had the syllabic R we would sing it with rolling the Rs.
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
It is sung with rolling rs. Listen to the kids next time in school.
determine96@reddit
Yeah, but it's not just "R".
And I don't get this with the "schwa".
Maybe in Bulgarian came from that, but later it was developed in more clearly pronounced sound.
From what I have read about "schwa" it's more the case with "О-У" and "А-Ъ" in a words in which this sound aren't under stress.
Like we type "глава" (glava) but it's pronounced more like "glăva" in which "ă" isn't pronounced clearly and sounds like something between "Ъ" and "A", when in the word "България" for example you can't mistake "Ъ" for "А".
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
I wasn't talking about Bulgarian. You have some strange vowels and additions and the whole orthography does not follow the pure 5 vowels + exactly one phoneme per letter.
determine96@reddit
I didn't get the last part.
5 vowels + exactly one phoneme per letter.
Can you give me an example ?
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
It is a weird thing that Serbians and Macedonians believe that after their latest spelling reform their written language became fully phonetic while Bulgarians and Russians use an „outdated“ and „archaic“ form of Cyrillic that doesn’t make sense and you have to learn how to spell things by heart.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
bro they know nothing, they were deceived in schools
determine96@reddit
I'm too lol
I'm sort of a geek, stop studying hard around 6-7 grade.
But I'm reading stuff from time to time.
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
It is actually a different vowel in the IPA when it is unstressed, our language is very interesting phonetically about this.
Stressed: A [a] ; Ъ [ɤ] ; О [ɔ] ; У [u] ; Е [ɛ] ; И [i] Unstressed: A and Ъ [ɐ] ; О and У [o] ; Е [е] ; И [i]
determine96@reddit
Interesting.
Didn't know that.
I thought "Е" and "И" are in couple because the would remain alone 😂
Or because of the "Yat" border like "пише (west Bul)/ пиши (east Bul)".
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
In the Eastern dialects we also have difficulty deciding when to write Е or И because we speak „softly“ and both turn into [i] when unstressed.
determine96@reddit
Yeah, there are interesting cases in our dialects.
Like around Pleven I think, they replaced fully "а" with "ъ" in many word, like "глъвътъ, водътъ" and such.
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
By the way, it is the other way around. Dialects did not change or modify the official language, because they pre-date its existence. If anything, they were brought closer together by forcing them (rightfully for all sorts of practical reasons) to conform to a single standard and by the spread of literacy. Long ago, in the bygone days of the Ottoman Empire, there was just a dialect continuum with ways of pronounciation and subtleties in grammar gradually shifting from village to village, all the way from Croatia to the Bulgarian east coast, becoming more and more ineligible the further away you go.
hero403@reddit
If you can mistake the `a` in `глава` (glava) for an `ъ` sound there is something wrong in your pronunciation. There are words where the second `a` can be, but this is not one of them
determine96@reddit
Ok, professor.
You know what I mean, that's why in Bulgarian people make often grammar mistakes, like is it "усигурявам" or "осигурявам" and such.
Like you can't just hear it clear for the most part.
Now maybe dialects play a factor, but at least on the TV in the parlament etc, people usually talk as I described.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
it is similar to schwa not exact
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
Just do the smart thing and use latin alphabet...
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
What is your point?
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
It's Balkans... You don't need a point to talk shit to neighbours...
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
There is absolutely no reason to bring anything back because it doesn't bring any value. Yers were productive but aren't anymore in any useful way in standard Serbian. Both soft and hard yer have either dissappeared, evolved to something else or still exists only if it was tied to R.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
well in we need to bring yer back in order to be truly phonetic
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
What about many allophones, we will ignore them and pretend they don't exist? Also, to achieve fully phonetic script we would need to write precednik/pretsednik or pedopet (instead of pet do pet), just to name few examples. Accents and lengths too. Should we use something instead of n in banka because it's not the same as n in nov? We won't use m in tramvaj? Alphabet is phonemic, one letter corresponds to one phoneme. There is no separate phoneme for any kind of yer, R+yer (R + whatever yer developed into) and consonant R are positional allophones of one phoneme.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
tramvaj has no m, who talks like that?
precednik/pretsednik or pedopet that happens when you speak fast, it is not standard
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
You mean just speak, not speak fast? It's physically impossible to pronounce d and s in sequence. You have to either insert a pause between them, to devoice d or to voice s. For 5 do 5 example, you would need to indicate glottal stop, otherwise it's not phonetic.
Nergral@reddit
U might have a speech impediment in that case...
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
I'm curious, why do you think so?
M in tramvaj is not the same consonant as in mango for example. N in banka or tango is not the usual N either.
D and S cannot be pronounced in sequence. If you think you're doing it you have a problem with your hearing.
Cross-word boundary assimilation is mandatory in every setting. Making pauses between voiceless and voiced consonants sounds like stutter.
Nergral@reddit
How does this "fat yer" sound?
Am pretty sure its not something u can hear in standard Serbian speech. For me "prvi" when spoken sounds absolutely the same as if u read the letters fully separately and then put those recordings together. No sound thats not written before nor after the r.
komunjist@reddit
The best way to explain this is to hear how the choir sings the Hymn of Saint Sava. The part “pojte mu Srbi” is never sung as Srrrrrrbi, but as Sъъъъrbi. That’s because of fat/debelo jer. If we truly had the syllabic R we would sing it with rolling the Rs.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
yeah that's it
MartinBP@reddit
The 20th century dumbed down both languages in an unforgivable manner honestly. So many contradictions were created as a result of an ideological effort by the communist governments to simplify writing in schools.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
one question, how yer is written in latin script?
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
The Croats used to write it as 'è' in the 19th century iirc.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
well to me it should A acute
No-Championship-4632@reddit
When we transliterate in latin, we tend to use either "a" or "u".
Barbak86@reddit
If by yer you mean the schwa sound, Albanian uses ë.
Përvi would be how we would write Prvi
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
similar but not schwa
shervek@reddit (OP)
Like the turkish |?
Barbak86@reddit
Yup, in it's own and in the example I used. BUT then it has a different functions as well. It indicates plurals, it changes accents of vowels behind it if there is a consonant between (arë - the ë is not pronounced, but the accent of the A is changed).
It's a weird one.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
well karadzic is from late 18th and early 19th century
j_i_joe@reddit
And he also dumbed down Serbian language…
Melodic_Interview210@reddit
Disparition of yer and yat in Serbo-Croatian predate communism by a hundred years
Circulation-@reddit
It is the same word, sounds almost the same, but Bulgarians have that y sound similar to russian ы between P and R. It's the sound that young Serbs have when they don't have an answer to the question in school 😄
radube@reddit
пъъъърви - puuuurvi - (fiiiiirst)
втоооори - vtoooori - (seeecond)
треееети - treeeeti (thiiiird)
Now let us see how the Serbians will count veery sloowly. I doubt it would be the same (about the word "first").
goldfeathered@reddit
If we agree to use 'u' for the ъ sound in this example, then the Serbians would actually say "pruuuuuvi" instead uf "puuuuurvi", and that's where the subtle difference is in normal faster pronunciation too. Some would probably even roll the r a bit actually, "prrrruvi"
pdonchev@reddit
They are not pronounced exactly the same (at the vert least the hidden vowel in Serbian is after the R). That said, there is a hidden vowel in Serbian, a d the difference in pronunciation is small, not as dramatic as the IPA transcription suggests. The rule was technically broken, but I still thibk the Serbian alphabet is one of the most phonemically consistent in the world.
Also - nothing "broke" IPA. It is known to imperfect and there are many ways to transcribe exactly the same sounds simetimes. The more important part is the other direction - reading sounds form a transcription, a d there IPA is quite good (even if still technically imperfect - there are qualities of sounds tgat yiu cannot transcribe).
komunjist@reddit
The best way to explain this is to hear how the choir sings the Hymn of Saint Sava. The part “pojte mu Srbi” is never sung as Srrrrrrbi, but as Sъъъъrbi. That’s because of fat/debelo jer. If we truly had the syllabic R we would sing it with rolling the Rs.
a_bright_knight@reddit
it's literally sang as Srъъъъbi though
komunjist@reddit
They sing Sъъъъrbi here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTPZcBRDxZM
komunjist@reddit
You may be right, I always sang it with a rolling R which got me lots of judging looks.
brainstalation@reddit
I found two songs for you to illustrate how much they actually differ. I’ve never heard this word in Serbian and thought it sounds like in Bulgarian. There’s a stark difference!
Serbian:
https://youtu.be/gupVcnaEfCc?t=4&is=Ch1pTBaChlvP4nHJ
Bulgarian:
https://youtu.be/5ZfRXO6gj44?t=27&feature=shared
Zkrslmn_@reddit
The problem here is that you guys try to adapt russian letters to your languages, which doesn't work. Try latin or invent yours.
PoliticalWaxwing@reddit
Actually as a Romanian I can tell you we distinguish between the two, in Romanian transliteration the bulgarian would be părvi while the serbian would be pârvi.
shervek@reddit (OP)
Do you have a minimal pair for me to hear in Romanian?
Minimal pair would be all the same sounds except for that one, as in English ship and sheep. Distinct vowels and phonemes but firm a minimal pair that can be easily confused by non natives.
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
Not sure it match your criteria... But we have words that only the accent change the meaning. Copii - 1) copies 2) chidrens 1) accent is on the O 2) on the first I No idea about phonetic writing of those...
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
Shouldn't standard Serbian be interpteted like prâvi?
PoliticalWaxwing@reddit
What do you mean?
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
Vowel should be after /r/, not before. Words "prvi" (first) and "pravi" (real) have the exact same accents and lengths: long falling accent on first syllable and post-accent on second syllable. The only difference is that in first syllable it's schwa-like in prvi and /a/ in pravi. Pronouncing vowel before r starts vibrating would be considered either a noticeable foreign accent or a speech impediment.
vladanHS@reddit
That's not really how it works, we are sold that "r" is a vowel but languages like Romanian and Bulgarian actually write the sound we don't, â is not a, it's what you hear in between p and r. E.g. Vršac is written as Vârșeț but pronunciation is exactly like Serbian would pronunce "Vršec"
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
In both standards of Serbian you hear no vowel between P and R, only after R. It's noticeable in "prvi" because it has length, pronouncing long vowel before R would be a clear marker of non-standard speech. I didn't say that R itself is a vowel, I said that schwa-like vowel comes after R, not before.
vladanHS@reddit
That's what I'm trying to explain, there is a vowel between P and R and it's written as â in Romanian. Serbian language maybe doesn't want to accept it but the sound is there. There's nothing after "R". Try pronouncing "prvi" the way you pronounce "pravi" but remove "a", there's a subtle difference.
Nergral@reddit
For me they're exactly the same
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
You didn't read what I wrote? I wrote there is a vowel, but it's after R, not before. I know there is a vowel, and there is nothing to accept or not accept about that, but position f vowel is simply wrong.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
They are not pronounced the same though?
shervek@reddit (OP)
How so? I read an article about this that found that most Bulgarian and Serbian dialects pronounce the sound or sounds the same, within the allowed variations of the sound (so called alophones).
But tell me where you perceive the difference, describe it and we can discuss. Also contrast with Macedonian which has the same position as Serbian - R is a vowel, with distinct pronunciation.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
I don’t know how to explain it well because I’m not an expert. Serbian uses Ъ like a ghost vowel after R. If you write how they pronounce “Srbija” with Bulgarian letters then it’d be Сръбия, while in Bulgarian it is Сърбия. The Ъ is in a different place
shervek@reddit (OP)
That's interesting. It doesn't quite sound right to me. I hear the schwa like sound (a neutral vowel) before r in both. But you may be right. But where Macedonian fits?
Can a Serb confirm that about Сръбия?
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Without ъ
Serbian sounds like 'prvi', Bulgarian sounds like 'parvi'
RubMyNose18@reddit
Haha this is quite funny. In Serbian there is no Ъ here. But if you write the serbian pronunciation of the word in Bulgarian phonetics, you will write the Ъ. So basically everyone is correct here.
timisorean_02@reddit
The bulgarian one is „Părvi”, if I use the romanian alphabet, and the serbian one sounds like „Pârvi” (Pîrvi). This is my take on the matter.
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
Well if you wanna confuse them slavs... Go back to the old Cyrillic Romanian script!!! Do it just to mess with them neighbors 🤣
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Agreed, my friend.
Antique-Army4569@reddit
I'm Macedonian and I think Србија would obviously be transcribed as Сърбия, the schwa-like sound is before the r. If it were pronounced Сръбия it'd be written Ср'бија or something (although this is not something you'd ever really encounter). Now you've got me thinking if our orthography really is consistent with its apostrophe placement, take the words безрбетен and не'рѓосувачки, in Bulgarian orthography they'd be written as безърбетен and неъргьосувачки. Although I guess it makes sense because in the first word the "зр" wouldn't be pronounced as a consonant cluster in any case so it has to be a consonantal r, whereas in the second word the distinction with the apostrophe is important because it could be read as нер-ѓо-су-вач-ки without it.. I'm just yapping atp
Antique-Army4569@reddit
A thing I've also noticed is that some people tend to skip the "schwa" sound at the beginning of words starting with 'р- and they move it to after the r sound. For example pronouncing 'рбет (ъ́р-бет) like ръ́-бет, with the schwa sound after the r.
determine96@reddit
Idk, but I'm from Pirin region and I can't pronounce "коњ" and I think I have heard Macedonians also pronounce it like "којн" sometimes or maybe I'm tripping, Idk.
petre_m_andreevski@reddit
You're right! I might be wrong but I think people from Prilep might say kojn
Antique-Army4569@reddit
I know you guys say кон but I didn't know you can't pronounce our word haha. And yeah, којн can be heard in some dialects
determine96@reddit
Some can, I'm sure that in some Northwestern dialects of Bulgarian this is present.
In one show of ours, talk show with comedy elements, there was the "night of the norwest" (they are seen as ours "kumanovci", funny people with funny dialects, why of speaking) and the guest that night present his book written in that dialects called "северозападен ромањ".
dwartbg9@reddit
Panceltic@reddit
Ask the Bulgarians to elongate the word. They will say пъъъърви. Serbs will say пррррви.
canastataa@reddit
I thought Serbians say пръви, and bulgarians say първи. and this very thing goes for a lot of words.
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
yeah i would say Сръбия, but keep in mind that yer is not learned in schools, and is only used in southern dialect so belgrade people can find it hard to hear/see it
Max_ach@reddit
I think a good exercise is to pronouns it in English and in our dialects then we will see that the English one is more with the ' sound than in Macedonian for example.
petre_m_andreevski@reddit
Very well explained. Reminded me of 'рт (cape) or 'рти (germinate) which is different than for example рт in the middle of another word like крт (mole).
Since we don't have Ъ in Macedonian we sometimes use '
Spiritual_Wave_9003@reddit
Trust him he is right
zekica@reddit
That is not correct. Србија is pronounced with "ъ" before "р", not after.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
They are not the same. първи and први are veery different to any native speaker. The ъ sound does not exist in Serbian. That should be a clue if nothing else.
Anduanduandu@reddit
Dialects ≠ official pronounciation
As a romanian i can make the difference between ăr/ră and vocalic r ( because in romanian âr in some dialects is pronounced like vocalic r )
The bulgarian pronounciation has a clear schwa-ish letter ( the ъ ) the serbian has no such thing
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
They are not pronounced exactly the same, even if your ear hears it the same. If you pronounce it the Bulgarian way while speaking Serbian you have a dialect or a speech impediment, and vice versa. The IPA is correct and is used by actual linguists that know what they are doing.
Both the syllable-forming R and the (at the time, reduced or short) vowel Ъ have been a feature of the South Slavic language family in the Middle Ages. In modern Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian, that vowel is not found anymore but syllable-forming R is. In Bulgarian, that short-vowel remained and turned into a regular one, also appearing where syllable forming R (and L) used to be, pushing them out of use. Hope it helps.
shervek@reddit (OP)
It makes sense your explanation. But the variation is normal - these are called Allophones within the same phoneme and exist across languages (subtle differences that do not warrant a distinct symbol). Allophones can be much further apart than two phonemes, it depends on the context and it is confusing. IPA is not exact science, it's quite a mess actually.
So in Macedonian it's transcribed as in a Serbian. Do you hear the difference in actual speech between Bulgaria and Macedonia when the say something like Srbija or prv?
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
Yes, you are right, but then this turns into a debate about the usefulness of the IPA overall, not just in the context of those two languages. What is important to remember is that the IPA is a linguistic tool used as a completely phonetic script that is supposed to also distinguish allophones. For example, there is an actual difference in the IPA transcription in British and American English (obviously would not be shown in English textbooks as there it is just used as a guide for pronounciation and just one is chosen). In your example, it is used to describe what the „correct“ or official way to pronounce the words is in the respective languages. You can also use it to describe slight differences in dialect between Belgrad and Dubrovnik, or between Sofia and Burgas.
Senju19_02@reddit
Може ли да обясниш/дадеш примери? И аз съм от този регион.
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
Е какво има да му се обяснява, просто си прочети от поста “прво” и “първо” точно както са написани и чуй разликата. Аз най-добре го долавям когато ми се каже “држава”.
Senju19_02@reddit
Немският само може да си мечтае за грубостта на звученето и умението да произнесе тия чудесии от съгласни тук - држава и први.
Толкова ли не можеше едно ъ,или дори а,да се сложи там бе... Цццц.
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
Защото предполагам, че в западна България шопите с твърдия си говор може и да не правят голяма разлика…
Иначе германците, с които съм говорил, масово смятат сръбско-хърватския за по-мелодичен и красив от българския по някаква причина.
Senju19_02@reddit
E това е ново за мен. Но може би защото сръбско-хърватския език има подобно струпване на съгласните (и по-често?) и затова им е по-лесно?
canastataa@reddit
Сръбския, Македонския и западните Български диалекти имат фиксирани ударение, може би това е причината.
Senju19_02@reddit
Ясно. Благодаря за отговора 👍
shervek@reddit (OP)
I know IPA uses things like aspiration marks etc to point out to a difference in articulation, but I think it's supposed to use the same symbol for a family of very closely related sounds, otherwise it would end up infinitely large and not useful. So there's judgement involved I guess.
That's interesting about Macedonian that sounds different to your ear as well
iwantpizzaandyou@reddit
No, it is not supposed to use the same symbols for closely related sounds. What is done often though is to be used more approximatively with less accuracy if the topic at hand doesn’t require it. This is what happens with the English transcriptions in textbooks.
Fear_mor@reddit
These aren’t allophones though. Allophones are on a language for language basis and in Serbo-Croatian there is no schwa phoneme, you just seem to have misunderstood how the IPA and phonology work
Los_de_Moose_4644@reddit
Yes we do. Macedonians or Ex Yugo have a very hard time saying words with ъ. I have a good friend and we numerous times talked about this. He always eats the ъ. Even though he is a Macedonian who otherwise speaks fluent Bulgarian. That ъ is what often reveals his true identity. Those two are not pronounced the same, not even close.
Strange-Bat-7977@reddit
The balkan obsession with writing paragraphs about things they clearly have no understanding about.
Stealthfighter21@reddit
Ъ is the closed vowel counterpart of А. It's a vowel in its own right. It's not just something that happens when certain letters/sounds occur together.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Technically Bulgarian is phonetically more accurate, but orthographically redundant. So the Bulgarian phonetic transcription for both should apply, but the Serbian orthography should apply to both
thethiccgorilla@reddit
Well ъ is orthographically only from the Serbo-Croatian perspective. Without the letter we wouldn't be able to differentiate between e.g. връх and върхове in Bulgarian. The same logic applies for IPA.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Sorry, I should’ve clarified.
In situations where the proto Slavic nasal o reflected into the schwa, as well as where the poluznak from proto Slavic was retained (I forget which Er it is), then the schwa is necessary.
For instances like this where it represents the beginning of the syllabic r sound, it isn’t necessary
thethiccgorilla@reddit
Again, I understand that this might be the case for Serbo-Croatian and apparently for Proto-Slavic, but in Bulgarian you need it to differentiate between e.g. the forms of certain words. We might say първи but we also have the form пръв so you need the schwa for proper orthography .
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
But in both cases aren’t they pronounced prv and prvi? Do they both mean first?
Stealthfighter21@reddit
No, there is a big ass vowel there.
https://forvo.com/word/%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D1%8A%D0%B2_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4/#bg
https://forvo.com/word/%D0%B7%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%8A%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D1%8A%D1%82/#bg
thethiccgorilla@reddit
No they are not. We pronounce the schwa sound exactly where it is written unlike protoslavic. Otherwise, yes both words have the exact same meaning and it is up to personal preference which to use
determine96@reddit
Yeah, plus you can meet it in more words/places
Like "ъгъл" and "пъдпъдък" - it can't work with "гл" and "пдпдк"
Stealthfighter21@reddit
Гл and пдпдк 🤣🤣🤣
Antibacterial_Cat@reddit
I will never forgive Vuk Karagich for dropping the letter Ъъ (latin Əə or Ëë), despite the fact that Serbs use it in speech, but do not write it.
No-Championship-4632@reddit
I am honestly more surprised at how Serbians use the consonant softening (the "ь" letter in Bulgarian, though I don't think that exists in Serbian). I was born in eastern Bulgaria and for years I thought Serbian is much more "hard" than Bulgarian. Then I figured out they have the "ћ" letter and sound. That was fucking crazy, even eastern Bulgarian doesn't have that and I don't think Russian has it too.
canastataa@reddit
What is strange to me is how their softener ье (конье) starts in the west, then disappears, and then a new softener resumes - ьа (ньама). Turns out parts of western Bulgaria and eastern Serbia are the hardest mofos. Ive been told a few times that our normal day to day speaking sounds like a fight is brewing.
canastataa@reddit
Its strange how in Croatia it goes from ье as a softener (koнье), then the softness disappears , and then it goes into ьа (няма). Turns out western Bulgaria and eastern Serbia are the hardest mofos. I have been told a few times that our speech sounds like a fighting is brewing.
dzumarait@reddit
As a speaker of Serbian and Macedonian, I think the two are, indeed, pronounced exactly the same and the Bulgarian position is the correct one.
JohnVonSpeedo@reddit
I mean први has one vowel, първи has two vowels. So they are phonetically different however you look at it.
Dave_meth_Mustard@reddit
the stress in“prvi” is on the R, the stress in “pyrvi” is clearly on the y, and not r. So no, there is no vocalic R in Bulgarian.
In my idiolect i pronounce unstressed-ър as vocalic R tho most Bulgarians don’t.
I’d also say that the ъ is actually a schwa, especially when unstressed
SaynatsaloKunnantalo@reddit
Those transcriptions aren't phonetic, though, but phonemic. ☝🏻🤓 That's the difference between slashes // and square brackets []. I'm not a native speaker of either language but my teacher has told that a short schwa like vowel can be heard even in BHS.
So while a broad transcription of ⟨prvi⟩ might be /ˈpr̩̂ʋi/, this transcription only distinguishes all the language's phonemes. A narrow transcription could be something like [ˈpə̆r˥˩ʋi]. I used a so called tone letter rather than a tone diacritic to not make the top of the schwa too cluttered. The mark above it here denotes extra shortness.
That said a syllabic r is definitely possible to pronunce so I'd be very surprised if no South Slav used those in their speech.
Senju19_02@reddit
R is never a vowel in Bulgarian,wtf?!
Senju19_02@reddit
R is never a vowel in Bulgarian,wtf?!
Stverghame@reddit
This is not true though
crivycouriac@reddit
We pronounce it like Bulgarians but write it like Serbs.
That’s Slovene *kmetavzerstvo* for you
Content-Departure-77@reddit
You took best from two worlds.
shervek@reddit (OP)
According to IPA, yours is different from both as it transcribes it differently
prvi → /ˈpəɾʋi/
Uses the common schwa, not the Bulgarian vowel or Serbian vocalic R.
crivycouriac@reddit
The Bulgarian sound sounds exactly the way we pronounce it idk
Arbaces420@reddit
It's all Greek to me
Ok_Bit8836@reddit
Bulgarian II - пръва. пръви............
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
why not before R?
Ok_Bit8836@reddit
Somewhere there are such countryside habits/pronunciation....
Acceptable-Ratio4339@reddit
Bulgarian is much more precise, and offer more accurate vocalization for example distinguishing between първи аnd пръви. This comming from Macedonian guy
Garofalin@reddit
I think of this almost as often as I think of the Roman Empire.
determine96@reddit
So everyday ?
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
They're not pronounced the same. In various Macedonian dialects we have both varieties. We don't write a vowel obviously, but I'm not sure if the R is meant to syllabic in the standard variety as it is Serbian. In my dialect (Bitola), it's not syllabic, but my vowel is slightly more central than the one in standard Bulgarian, probably closer to a true schwa /ɘ/. Vowels closer to the Bulgarian /ɤ/ are very common in eastern dialects, and likewise for syllabic Rs in the north.
shervek@reddit (OP)
Oh so you can hear a difference between now someone from Bitola says Srbija vs someone from Skopje?
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
If I pay attention, but it's not a huge difference in casual speech. It's probably also more noticeable in Kumanovo than Skopje. Where I really hear a difference between Macedonian and Serbian is in music. Serbs will always sing a syllabic R and Macedonians won't, or at least that's my perception. It's very obvious in a slow folk song like say "Дафино вино црвено"; everyone would sing that as if it were "ц'рвено/цървено". Whenever I listen to Serbian folk music, they never do that. I'm not sure how to describe what they do exactly, because it's not like they hold a long trill, but there's definitely no vowel.
S-onceto@reddit
Huh, I genuinely can't hear the difference...
eba4ev@reddit
Who told you it is pronounced EXACTLY the same?
Every Balkan person knows the different.
saythealphabet@reddit
Only in Balkan, stromk
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Стъромк
dwartbg9@reddit
Първи and Први are not pronounced the same.
If someone just says this word, I can easily recognize if he's Bulgarian or Serbian. You really forgot that we have the letter - "Ъ" in Bulgarian
Xitztlacayotl@reddit
They are absolutely not pronounced the same. Source: I speak both Croatian and Bulgarian
Melodic_Interview210@reddit
Modern Serbian grammar is teaching that under some conditions, R is a vowel, it's in the normative Matica Srpska grammar, so I guess it's part of what you're taught under standar school curiculum.
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
That E in Srbija( Serbia) is just like the E in Prvi...
AdvantageStatus4635@reddit
yes