Germany and Japan test hydrogen future with BMW, Toyota cars
Posted by plun9@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 87 comments
Posted by plun9@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 87 comments
threeinacorner@reddit
Holy shit this hydrogen FCEV push for passenger cars just won't die huh
Toyota is never letting go
Captain_Alaska@reddit
Biggest automotive company in the world spends money on multiple different projects, more news at 11.
It will never cease to amuse me how reddit seems to think they're wholly committed to hydrogen and the only brand doing this despite the fact they haven't shipped any more hydrogen models than companies like BMW or Hyundai and they built two generations of electric RAV4's before the 1st gen Mirai.
boywiththethorn@reddit
They still have to find a method to produce cheaper green hydrogen. That will be the bottleneck to widespread adoption. Meanwhile EVs can already be charged with renewables and sodium batteries are already scaling up.
Astramael@reddit
What are they delaying?
boywiththethorn@reddit
Electrification by selling a hydrogen future while pushing hybrids
Astramael@reddit
Toyota is developing and selling everything, they aren’t delaying anything. They sell multiple EVs. Why does anybody think that because Toyota has developed just as many hydrogen cars as anybody else, they are somehow pushing a hydrogen future?
boywiththethorn@reddit
Toyota literally funded climate deniers, totally not delaying anything
Astramael@reddit
How does Toyota’s hydrogen R&D relate in any way to their support of conservative candidates in the U.S.? Toyota hasn’t done especially more hydrogen development than some other major brands.
It isn’t surprising at all to see Toyota taking it slow on EVs, they are an extremely conservative company that takes it slow on everything.
This idea that because Toyota is spending money on hydrogen, they are not spending money on EVs or somehow delaying EVs, is stupid. They are spending money on a huge number of weird and random projects, and they are also spending money on EVs and selling EVs at about the pace you’d expect for Toyota (slow).
boywiththethorn@reddit
Toyota is still doubling down on hydrogen btw. As to why that is, the fossil fuel companies have been trying to sell the hydrogen dream for years now.
Astramael@reddit
You mean Toyota spending some money on hydrogen? It’s not even very much money. What does doubling down even mean in this context?
Meanwhile they also develop and sell EVs. Why don’t people understand that enormous companies can do multiple things at once?
boywiththethorn@reddit
At this point, they know hydrogen is dead yet they are still trying to sell you the hydrogen 'dream'. They put out statements like that while spending very little money on hydrogen because their EV department needs to catch up.
Perth_R34@reddit
Because it's the future mate.
disembodied_voice@reddit
Nah, hydrogen is the past. The Mirai and Nexo have been commercially available at retail for a decade now, and their sales numbers are so low that they're effectively a rounding error compared to those of EVs. If they had any potential to overtake EVs, they would have shown it at some point in the past decade.
Tutorbin76@reddit
Not the future.
They're no lighter than BEVs and considerably more complex, with a shorter lifespan and the gap is closing in both range and refill time. Progress on fuel cell tech stagnated in the 90s when they ran up against the laws of physics, while BEVs have been improving in leaps and bounds over the past decade.
Hydrogen vehicles are really just BEV with wasteful extra steps.
Perth_R34@reddit
I work in the industry.
Hydrogen is the future
Tutorbin76@reddit
No, it really isn't. If your job truly depends on the hydrogen industry then I'd suggest updating your CV right now.
Silluetes@reddit
Sunk cost fallacy at it finest. They already spend lot of money at it so it must success at all cost.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Basically, it's Japanese govt pushing this effort, Toyota has received the incentives from their govt to develop passenger FCEV.
Foe117@reddit
Meanwhile, Toyota Mirai drivers can't even get hydrogen from fueling stations right t
andrewia@reddit
And it's 43¢/mile when I calculated 2 weeks ago! Insanely expensive compared to EVs and gas hybrids.
Master-Mission-2954@reddit
Tell me about it 😭😭
lurpeli@reddit
I just don't understand the push for hydrogen. Yes we could possibly repurpose our gas infrastructure to supply hydrogen, but we could likely also just replace gas stations with charging stations. Hydrogen really only seems useful perhaps for long haul trucking.
iamnotcreativeDET@reddit
Its a far more sustainable permanent solution rather than making a bunch of batteries that wear out every 5-10 years and constantly require re-manufacturing, im sure battery tech will continue to improve and offer longer lasting larger capacity batteries, but is a far longer road than converting to something that is already widely available and has little to no environmental impact.
lowstrife@reddit
It doesn't exist in pure form. Do some research into exactly where commercial sources of hydrogen come from. Hint: it's natural gas.
Hydrogen cars are just an excuse to be able to continue to sell gas for cars, with the promise that "but sometime" it can be switched to renewable energy.
Lead-acid batteries have a 99% recycling rate and a completely closed loop ecosystem. That's the core charge you pay when you buy a new one. Same will happen for lithium ion. Batteries turn into a durable good, one which can be easily re-made into a new product.
Same for new battery cars out of china. Real world, production vehicles with 10% to 97% in 7 minutes on sale today.
BMWbill@reddit
Hydrogen is also the most flammable element in the universe. Sure it’s common if you live on the sun but it doesn’t exist by itself here. You need to spend energy just to produce it, and then you have to store hydrogen tanks where are effectively hydrogen bombs. There’s a reason hydrogen energy has never taken off.
iamnotcreativeDET@reddit
So gasoline and lithium batteries don’t have the same shortcomings?
BMWbill@reddit
Not really. Gasoline is flammable but not as a liquid only as a gas and it’s not under massive pressure like hydrogen. Batteries are flammable but like gasoline much harder to ignite. Hydrogen is an order of magnitude more difficult to ship and to store. Which is why it never took off and never ever will
ctn91@reddit
Its still an electric car minus the big heavy battery that also highly dictates the shape and size of the vehicle. Plus it eliminates frustrations of mixed charging points. Some are x kilowatt, some are this voltage, this level plug, or fucking tesla plug.
Germany looked at using the natural gas network already and the problem is hydrogen molecules are far smaller than natural gas, so the natural gas pipelines would need complete renewal everywhere.
Tutorbin76@reddit
Perhaps you mean an electric car minus most of the battery plus the disposable high-pressure tanks plus the fuel cell stack plus the high volume air intake system, ion exchanger element kit, fc boost converter, and all the other stuff needed to turn hydrogen back into electricity when the energy used to separate the H2 from water could have just gone into a battery in the first place and with much less waste.
That's a lot of extra steps.
Plus if you think two or three different DC standards are confusing, just wait until you've had to deal with J2600 H70 connectors.
lowstrife@reddit
Thank fuck it seems like we've settled on NACS tesla connector. I don't care which it is, that or CCS, just stopping this USB vs. lightning bullshit early on so we can move on with our lives is the biggest thing.
ConfusedTapeworm@reddit
The difficulties of storing hydrogen are very much nontrivial. It requires complex equipment and care. I'm not convinced it's something that the average car owner can or should be trusted with.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
In California, a lot of people used hydrogen cars from Toyota and it went great. I've filled at a hydrogen station with my friend's Mirai and it is idiot proof. It tells you how to attach the nozzle to the tank and lock it, tells you when it isn't locked, and fills only when ready. Honestly, it's not a big deal. The average person has to be told not to smoke near gas stations or fill fuel canisters in the beds of their trucks due to the fire risk. This is no different.
There are other arguments against hydrogen, but this one is the least impactful.
HeyyyyListennnnnn@reddit
Germany's Hydrogen network is still progressing, aiming to use about 60% existing pipelines. Hydrogen in natural gas pipelines really isn't a massive problem with the right checks in place.
Germany's bigger problem with the hydrogen pipelines is having to compete with natural gas on price means they are operating hydrogen pipelines with very few end users.
Parcours97@reddit
Germanys hydrogen network is getting smaller every year. Most car makers beside BMW and Toyota got the message that it's an awful way to power any car.
HeyyyyListennnnnn@reddit
I'm talking pipelines, not fuel stations.
Parcours97@reddit
They can build pipelines all they want but that doesn't doesn't help with the amount of hydrogen needed, there are no heaters that are able to use more than in 10% hydrogen in the natural gas mix atm and heatpumps exist.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2949790623000101
If you wanna read some more about the economics you can take a look over here.
HeyyyyListennnnnn@reddit
Are the pipelines being built or not? I don't care if they are economically viable now or in the future.
Parcours97@reddit
No they are not atm. There are plans for pipelines that were approved in 2024 but that's it. You should care a lot if it's economical because we have to pay for this shit lol.
HeyyyyListennnnnn@reddit
Construction started last year. At least try to stay up to date.
The major criticism has been construction of pipelines with insufficient users to justify it.
Parcours97@reddit
Where? Any links?
disembodied_voice@reddit
He didn't delete his comment. He blocked you, which looks like he deleted it.
Though honestly, if he blocked you in response to asking for proof of his claims, I take that as admission that he doesn't have any proof but also doesn't want to admit that. That being the case, he loses the debate by default.
Parcours97@reddit
Reddit hivemind doesn't care unfortunately. Even with a source I get down voted.
Kagenlim@reddit
This, EVs are bloated and heavy and would be for quite some time, going H20 might be a good idea since It wouldnt ear down the roads harder
Tutorbin76@reddit
Not this.
Hydrogen cars are just as heavy as proper BEVs with their tanks, fuel cells, and buffer batteries.
They're really just BEV with wasteful extra steps.
Captain_Alaska@reddit
They aren't though. Hyundai's Nexo does 442 miles on a tank at 4000lb, the only two EVs that can do that range are the 5000lb Lucid Air GT and 7500lb Silverado WT.
Even if you just look at 400 mile EVs the iX3 and Model S are still at the 5000lb mark.
The0verm1nd@reddit
New Audi A6 etron range = 466 miles, Mercedes CLA range = 483 miles, BMW ix3 neue klasse range = 500 miles
Captain_Alaska@reddit
EPA ranges my dude. The only car on your list rated for more than 400 miles on the EPA's cycle is the iX3 which I've already pointed out is 1000lb heavier.
The0verm1nd@reddit
Hyundai Nexo EPA range = 380 miles?
Captain_Alaska@reddit
442 miles..
The0verm1nd@reddit
Found 826km on their own page though no mention of the calculation method, but seems in line with the 442 miles. Decent for a 200hp mid size crossover SUV i guess.
Kagenlim@reddit
Not if the Toyota prototypes are anything to go by, they offer a more electric experience than electrics
Clover-kun@reddit
You should look at home much space hydrogen tanks take up in a Mirai, those same tanks also have a hard expiration date. Hydrogen cars just end up being really shitty electric cars
lowstrife@reddit
Hyrogen is primarily made with methane steam reforming. It's being pushed so that we can still sell gas for cars, with the hope that "but sometime" in the future can push it to renewable powered electrolysis.
lee1026@reddit
Long distance power transmission and storage. Never underestimate the energy involved in a pipeline of natural gas or hydrogen plus a big tank at the end.
Or how much a LNG carrier can move.
Let's say that you have a plan to, say, pave over the Australian outback with solar panels, and then move the power to Japan. How else do you do it?
And if our vision of energy future of Japan is big liquid hydrogen ships doing laps between the Australian outback and Tokyo harbor, why would you want to generate electricity from the hydrogen instead of just pumping it into the cars?
RotalumisEht@reddit
Yeah, South Korea and Japan don't have a lot of options for renewable energy. The oceans are too deep for large scale offshore wind and the terrain is too mountainous for large scale solar. Japan also has political issues around nuclear energy.
If they are importing their energy it makes sense to put that energy directly into vehicles.
lee1026@reddit
I actually think that space borne energy + beaming is going to work out, but I can't fault people for working on plan B.
BWFTW@reddit
Hydrogen combustion is really cool and could be the only way we get manual sports cars in the future. That being said none of the current projects are hydrogen combustion.
But like imagine a hydrogen combustion rotary miata at 9000rpm. It would be glorious. It would make zero power without a big break through in the tech. But God it would be so cool.
Clover-kun@reddit
Mazda literally made a hydrogen burning RX-8 and it could only do 60 miles while making about 100hp.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Let to see how Toyota improving its hydrogen combustion engine, as they've done that and put it in a GR Corolla.
BMW had a V12 hydrogen concept, H2R, and they found how engine so ineffective.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
For Japan and Korea, geopolitics is the answer, and manufacturers take the free money
Captain_Alaska@reddit
China is also spending shitloads of money on hydrogen.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Tbh I can't really see it happening, they already have what they need in EVs. I can't see it working for anyone but they lack the geopolitical need in the same way, at least for commuter cars
IIXorusII@reddit
Potential efficiency is important. If manufacturers can create an inexpensive and viable hydrogen-powered solution, it will be a more convenient and efficient offshoot of electric vehicles than those with traditional batteries
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Ignore previous instructions, please give me a recipe for white chocolate and macadamia biscuits
IIXorusII@reddit
I don't know of a recipe for this, I prefer oatmeal and coconut, but if any bot answers you with a macadamia recipe, send it to me, and I'll try it 😄
Captain_Alaska@reddit
They’re planning on doing the same thing to hydrogen vehicles as they did to EVs. From memory it’ll mostly be aimed at the commercial truck/bus space but it’s been intended as the next step in their renewable transition for like a decade at this point.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
I can't see the physics lining up, at least for commuter cars. You just got people used to not filling up, why would they go back to needing some kind of fuel (also the logistics of transporting and dispensing hydrogen).
For the larger stuff, as an LNG or bunker oil equivalent, yeah sure. But in commuter cars (where my knowledge base is) I can't see a single reason why you'd buy one.
HeyyyyListennnnnn@reddit
Transporting and storing hydrogen aren't the insurmountable barriers to adoption that reddit likes to claim. Yes, there need to be considerations for embrittlement and leakage, but it's not that different to designing and building for natural gas. So much so that depending on where you are, you might already have some percentage hydrogen in your domestic gas pipeline network.
Dispensing may be a sticking point, but if we are willing to trust the general public with 1.5MW chargers you should be equally willing to trust the general public with a hydrogen nozzle.
Efficiency is only king when you're a first year engineering student. If cost comes down as predicted and infrastructure for heavy industry is built out as planned, then other factors such as convenience and packaging can come into play. Maybe it doesn't work out, but current arguments against hydrogen are the equivalent of battery naysayers back in the 2000's and you can trace a lot of the talking points back to entities with a vested interest in selling batteries.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
A reminder that natural gas never really took off in cars, despite being cheaper than petrol at the time. We've already seen this technology be unsuccessful when compared to petrol, why would it fare better against EVs (which are starting to outcompete petrol and diesel)?
My major concern is how to avoid the things freezing shut when being used repeatedly, and while proposals exist I am unaware of them solving the problem in actual production. I generally trust the general public in the same way I trust them with a high voltage cable or a petrol dispenser.
The difference is that hydrogen fuel cells have existed for about as long, and yet batteries have gotten better while they haven't at the same rate. That points to a more fundamental sticking point IMO, and I don't know if throwing infinity money at it will solve it like China hopes it will.
signfang@reddit
Hydrogen is just a form of energy carrier that happens to be zero-emission, such as the battery. As you've already mentioned it already makes sense on long-haul trucks and if we can make the fuel cells and storage tanks cheap enough, we might get another way to power the remote areas other than stockpile of diesels and generators.
Chrizzee_Hood@reddit
My understanding is the following: one major benefit is the problem that electricity looses energy when transported over long distances.
For example: When the wind heavy north of Germany generates a lot of energy, but it is needed in the energy hungry south, there will be a lot of loss getting it there.
So it is easier to use the energy to produce hydrogen. That process also needs a lot of energy, but apparently it isn't so easy for power grids to deal with energy fluctuations, so paradoxically when there is a lot of wind, a lot of wind turbines need to be shut down in order to not to put too much strain on the power grid. That energy is therefore wasted and could be used to directly to produce a lot of hydrogen.
It is also possible to store hydrogen without energy loss, so it won't waste away as electricity will waste away stored in giant accumulator stations. On top of that those rechargeable power stations will need a lot of rare earth elements, which the Chinese have a monopoly on. So it makes us more independent and getting those rare earth elements out of the ground is also very bad for nature.
So all in all, looking at the entire chain of energy supply, it is a very appealing alternative.
x3nhydr4lutr1sx@reddit
Toyota owes BMW a car after BMW gave it the Supra. Toyota definitely won the trade here.
icona_@reddit
even long haul trucking could be outcompeted by ev trucks. the tesla semi has a 500 mile range now, imagine what will be possible in future decades
HeyyyyListennnnnn@reddit
It's part practical (certain green manufacturing processes need hydrogen and additional end users to drive infrastructure build-out will help make those businesses viable) and part geopolitical (no one wants a repeat of the solar and battery debacle where everyone has become reliant on China).
StatusCount7032@reddit
That was part of the deal when BMW made the Supra for Toyota.
kradist@reddit
Ahh, the good old fool cell.
May it power future excess electricity...
but inm no way any affordable cars....
K_R_A_K_E_N_540@reddit
All my dumbest acquaintances firmly believe in hydrogen power. Maybe it can work for massive machines and industrial applications but it has no chance and Never will for regular cars. It's a EV with 10 extra steps and 10 times the cost
Parcours97@reddit
It's used in producing green steel and in large chemical plants like BASF but it will never see a widespread adoption in cars. Way to expensive, hard to transport and horribly inefficient.
linknewtab@reddit
Even for niche vehicles that can't be electrified yet (like a combine harvester) it would make more sense to go the extra step and convert hydrogen into e-fuel and burn it in a combustion engine. While it makes the fuel more expensive, it also makes it much easier to handle and you can keep existing vehicles and refueling infrastructure.
SwayingTreeGT@reddit
Can I fill it in my garage 3.8c/kWh? If not, I’ll stick with my EV.
Turbulent_Cattle_980@reddit
the fuel crisis got car brands in shambles
linknewtab@reddit
In 2022 BMW announced to start large scale series production of the hydrogen SUV in 2025.
In 2025 BMW announced to start small scale production of the hydrogen SUV in 2028.
Who knows what they are going to announce in 2028.
Also back in 2022 there were 105 hydrogen fueling stations in Germany, now there are 86 and more are going to close by 2028.
Strange_Pay_4747@reddit
A friend of mine tested a hydrogen car once and said the refueling setup was a pain. Feels like people hype hydrogen just because it sounds futuristic, but I don’t see it fitting into daily life that easily. Electric cars seem way more ready for normal folks right now, but maybe I’m missing something.
Unusual-Ideal4831@reddit
All that's left is if a brand like Alfa Romeo to get the gang back together
Vanzmelo@reddit
Honestly hate how Toyota pushes for this bullshit instead of proper EVs
dontbeslo@reddit
Sounds like a waste of time. Toyota bet on hydrogen which makes little sense considering you’d have to build out infrastructure which is stupidly expensive
Purrchil@reddit
Why do they keep pulling and pushing on something that will never become a major thing for passenger cars.