Snowbirds to be Grounded Until early 2030’s Until New Aircraft Arrive
Posted by Darius2112@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 136 comments
Posted by Darius2112@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 136 comments
Openskies24@reddit
Replacing them with turboprops just feels wrong :/
zorzk@reddit
I was curious about this. Is there any form of advantage? Could they do maneuvers that jets couldn’t?
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
No. Turbo props are nothing but a downgrade with respect to a demo team.
NoSklsRabdWhor@reddit
We would be the laughing stock of the aviation world if we went with turbo props to fill an entertainment role. NGL the snowbirds had oddly quiet jet engines as it was to be in that role to begin with.
flightist@reddit
The Aussies put on a fine show, didn’t see anybody laughing.
I’d rather a jet, but I’d also rather not have the team dormant for a decade (when we might realistically have a new lead-in jet trainer) or permanently (when we don’t buy a couple dozen extra lead-in jet trainer for the demo team that’s been dormant for a decade).
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
I've seen them once, and they went on after the Rhino demo and before the blue angels. The lack of noise was... something else.
Camjay7@reddit
I don't think its for no reason other than the RCAF can't justify buying a unique airplane just for the Snowbirds. You see other air forces around the world use their turboprop trainers as the display aircraft like Australia, Brazil and New Zealand for example.
YYZYYC@reddit
Largest increase in defence spending since ww2 there is plenty to squeeze in some new jet trainers
flightist@reddit
There will be new fighter lead-in trainers, but that’s a decade away I bet.
Flaxinator@reddit
Doesn't Canada have jet trainers? That's what we use in the UK
LackOptimal553@reddit
No, because we send fast jet pilots to Sheppard to train.
roguemenace@reddit
None since the hawk was retired. Jet training is currently contracted out through other countries.
LackOptimal553@reddit
Not really relevant. They're using the same aircraft used for training, not ordering just for a team. Advantage isn't a consideration, practicality is.
YYZYYC@reddit
They could and should just order trainer jets for the snowbirds
Duckbilling2@reddit
I really wish they has specified the reason.
I speculate it may be because they are more easily recoverable at low speeds
LackOptimal553@reddit
The reason is that's the RCAF's new trainer, and they're going to get a few extra for the Snowbirds.
Duckbilling2@reddit
Oh, there you go.
kilkenny99@reddit
The turboprop is the new standard trainer for the RCAF (Pilatus PC-21), not specifically selected a demonstration team aircraft.
SaltInternational538@reddit
I think the turboprops will allow a tighter show than the jets. Smaller turning radius.
scotsman3288@reddit
Having seen the RAAF Roulettes 2 months ago in their PC-21s, i think it's possible for sure....they were making a nice tight maneuvers.
some photos
TenderfootGungi@reddit
Most airshows focus primarily on non-jets for a reason. They can perform in a much smaller box for the crowd watching.
-Skybopper-@reddit
Powered by an engine built in Canada is probably the biggest advantage.
TubeframeMR2@reddit
One advantage of the CT-157 is it opens up Snowbird rotation to pilots other than fighter pilots. All RCAF pilots will be familiar with the platform.
Lava_Lamp_Glob@reddit
Idk how well mechanically they will fare. While a jest turbine might be costly to maintain, it's sort of made for all sorts of maneuvering, unlike a piston engine which still relies on a certain amount gravity. Accounting wear in the propeller itself, this will be odd to see a full fleet of these doing aerobatics
rebel_cdn@reddit
It's a turboprop, not a piston engine. essentially just a jet turbine that spins a shaft with a prop attached to it.
I'm actually interested to see how this plays out. Performance-wise, the PC-21 and Tutor are pretty close in performance. The tutor has a higher top speed, but that won't matter much for the snowbirds.
Lava_Lamp_Glob@reddit
Oh well today I learned. I thought turboprops were a piston propeller engine that had a turbo in it 😆
rebel_cdn@reddit
Turbocharged piston engine aircraft exist too, so your thinking wasn't unreasonable. For example: https://cessna.txtav.com/en/piston/cessna-turbo-skylane
There are some piston turbodiesels too, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_DA62
Turboprops are really just a specific implementation of the "let's use a gas turbine to turn a shaft" idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboshaft
Tons of helicopters use turboshaft engines, but you'll find them all over the place in vehicles like M1 Abrams tanks and Arleigh Burke class destroyers, just to name a couple.
yoshipunk123456@reddit
It's a turboprop (basically a jet engine but it provides thrust by spinning a propeller instead of directly)
Horror-Aioli-4324@reddit
Any reason they didnt go with F-18s? I figure there would be surplus with the F-35 coming online.
rhineauto@reddit
I’d guess cost. These are way cheaper to operate than CF-18s
scotsman3288@reddit
I was in Sydney, AU two months ago during the Naval review show and I saw the RAAF Roulettes for the first time. The PC-21 is a beauty little aircraft but my largest takeaway, was that they are not very impressionable and inspiring. I barely knew where they were half the time, and before i could turn around a take a photo, they were gone. They're too quiet...
LackOptimal553@reddit
The Hawks are retired and are not being replaced, hence the PC-21s.
DavidBrooker@reddit
They are being replaced in principle, but on an long timeframe with no specific aircraft currently targeted. Currently, Canada is using foreign-nation training for lead-in fighter training. This makes sense, as we do not have a domestic F-35 instructor cadre. However, the FFLIT program will see the development of a domestic lead-in fighter training program, and the procurement of a fast jet trainer to support it. The initial phase has concluded with contracting CAE to develop the program further.
LackOptimal553@reddit
Pretty good summary. We've been sending pilots to Sheppard for a while (in a previous job I had a tangential role managing some RCAF pilot candidates).
DavidBrooker@reddit
If I recall, that is what prevented the Snowbirds from adopting the Hawk: they were owned by Bombardier and CAE, not the RCAF.
LackOptimal553@reddit
Pretty sure the RCAF owned them, but they were basically timed out.
quietflyr@reddit
Can confirm this.
VaunBob@reddit
I’m very disappointed as a Canadian. I feel like a new team starting with turboprops would be cool. However, moving from jets to props, it will never be the same. They aren’t the loudest jets but it’s still part of the experience.
Iamkempie@reddit
Yeah it's sadly an end of a glorious era. I grew up watching these guys as a kid. Now I live just down the road from YTR and see them now and then when they come in for servicing. I'll miss them. It won't be the same.
helno@reddit
It sucks but any replacement jet takes the operating cost through the roof.
The Tutors were perfect for this as they were basic aircraft with simple systems and engines. Unfortunately there is no real direct replacement.
ledzepplin408@reddit
Might as well replace them next year with some caravans or PC12s. Keep everyone fresh for the turboprops…
I get that the tutor was well overdue to be retired but with a 3 year hiatus and this embarrassing replacement, they might as well retire the name as well. The French use Alphajets and Italians have the MB399 jets. Even Breitling had the L39s..
adventuresofh@reddit
What a shame. I get it, working on vintage airplanes myself, but still disappointing. Guess I’ll have to make the trip up to Abbotsford to see them - I’ve never seen them at a show in Canada and I’d like to before they retire. Definitely going to try to make Sacramento.
They’re my favorite jet team - the US teams are cool, but the Snowbirds are a very different performance and much more enjoyable to watch for me
agha0013@reddit
it's a shame but it is extremely hard to maintain these poor things still.
The jets are neat and have some good historical significance, but the most important component is the skilled pilots. Give them something newer that we can maintain reasonably and get the pilots training in those and we'll be good to go.
These tutors were introduced to the snowbirds in 1967. Back then the Blue Angels were flying Cougars and about to get Phantoms, and since then have had Skyhaws, classic F-18s and now the super hornets. Thunderbirds also had a similar progression of types.
time for the Snowbirds to modernize.
av8t3r@reddit
The Snowbirds were formed in 1971 not 1967 however, your point still stands as the RCAF demo team in 1967 the Golden Centennaires did use the tutor aswell.
surSEXECEN@reddit
They started with F-86 Sabres.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
In 1967, the Blues were flying the F-11 tiger. They stopped flying the Cougar in 1957.
Magooose@reddit
The first time I saw the Blues was at Lemoore NAS when they were flying the F-11.
CorrodedLollypop@reddit
I wish the RAF Red Arrows would modernise too, they're still flying Hawk T1's (a 1970's/80's plane)
TheMusicArchivist@reddit
News just this week that their hoped-for replacement has gone into administration.
CorrodedLollypop@reddit
Bugger
Nonions@reddit
Apparently they didn't partly because the newer Hawk T.2 was less suited to the role, but I imagine money was also part of it.
The RAF would be well served by a new trainer/light attack aircraft imho, either the FA/T-50 from Korea or one or the M346, or similar.
LharDrol@reddit
My god, Canada is going to use a turbo prop? How sad. Canada and UK are failing nations.
LackOptimal553@reddit
Canadian taxpayers won't be buying new jets for them, nor does the RCAF need them.
LharDrol@reddit
Mine as well just give up the snowbirds then rather than waste everyone's time with WWII planes.
wlonkly@reddit
The Tutors are closer to WWII planes than anything in the air today that's not flown as a vintage aircraft.
LackOptimal553@reddit
You'll be pleased to know that there are no WW2 planes involved in anything.
LharDrol@reddit
most Americans are doing better than most Canadians or Brits these days, regardless of who the idiot in the White House is.
LackOptimal553@reddit
Be that as it may, I'm very glad to be Canadian and not American.
LharDrol@reddit
well that's good for you. remember to keep those elbows up! we wouldnt want anyone to get an inferiority complex now!
LackOptimal553@reddit
Life's great. Six figure salary, possibly moving to Australia for a new adventure, and not American. I'd rather be dead.
LharDrol@reddit
six figure salary in Canadian dollars is like $13.50, right? if you love your homeland so much, why are you leaving? the Canadian housing market wasn't expensive enough for you, so you decided to try out Sydney? guess you can say elbows down soon!
quietflyr@reddit
And more!
https://youtu.be/mPF_-rQH0q4
quietflyr@reddit
Oh wow this is embarrassing for you...
The PC-21 first flew in 2002, which is nearly 60 years after the end of WWII. It also makes it a newer, more modern design than either the F/A-18s flown by the Blue Angels and the F-16s flown by the Thunderbirds. Also more modern than the Alpha Jets flown by the Patrouille de France, The Hawks flown by the Red Arrows, and the MB-339s flown by the Frecce Tricolori.
LharDrol@reddit
im so embarrassed! everyone loves watching propellor planes!
briyyz@reddit
Understandable, and I support the move to CT-157s, but it will be a move of our demo team from tier 1 to tier 2.
Buying a pure jet *just* for this role would be a folly, though.
In the end a consequence of multiple governments (of all stripes) kicking the can down the road until the Tutors ran out of road.
wlonkly@reddit
Who's tier 1, then, the warbird demo teams? If so, we've been tier 2 all along. Snowbirds with Tutors is classic, but they're ancient airframes.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Reading the article makes it seem like the Snow Birds' jets were specifically targeted.
wlonkly@reddit
They were, because the Snowbirds are the only remaining operators of the Tutor in the world. The equivalent would be flying Sopwiths in 1980.
LackOptimal553@reddit
The Snowbirds are the only user of the aircraft, and while the RCAF had a bunch in storage, they're basically ancient now.
DevilsPumpkinPiety@reddit
I truly cannot imagine the Snowbirds flying anything but the 114s.
wlonkly@reddit
Hasn't been the same since the Golden Hawks in their Sabres if you ask me.
Dorrido@reddit
Our Snowbirds are our best pilots. They should be flying our best planes. Anything less is an insult and travesty.
Paint up 9 f-18’s and let’s go.
BackgroundGrade@reddit
Going from aging memory here, but the engines & prop governors in this family of trainers supposedly are tuned to mimic jet acceleration/deceleration (I was at Pratt Canada during the development of the T6 Texan engine).
The PC-9 (in acrobatic config) has a better thrust to weight ratio than the Tutor (.5:1 vs .35:1).
Should be fun to watch the Snowbird pilots in these.
Plus some political brownie points with the PT-6 engines coming from Canada.
The US F-16 and F-18 demo teams are very impressive, but so are the Snowbirds, but in a different way.
SayAgainSally@reddit
So sad to see the Tutors go, as understandable as it is. Even sadder that they're being replaced with turboprops instead of just upgrading to newer jets. It just won't be the same.
LackOptimal553@reddit
The RCAF has no operational requirement for a jet that would fill the bill, that's why they aren't.
YYZYYC@reddit
Lead in fighter training
LackOptimal553@reddit
Which is done at Sheppard Air Force Base on T-38s. There will eventually be a FLIT aircraft bought but not a priority right now.
YYZYYC@reddit
It could be a priority now if they wanted to. The optics are win win…snowbirds are easy to sell to more pacifist voters who like them flying over parliament hill. And bringing our fighter training back to Canada and out of america is an even easier sell in Canada right now
LackOptimal553@reddit
Exactly. If they wanted to... And they haven't done so. What does that tell you?
YYZYYC@reddit
That they are not doing the right thing
_berkoes@reddit
man they should have replaced them with the BAE Hawks
LackOptimal553@reddit
What Hawks? The RCAF isn't buying planes just for a demonstration team.
YYZYYC@reddit
They can and should
LackOptimal553@reddit
They can't and won't.
YYZYYC@reddit
Of course they can.
Ein_grosser_Nerd@reddit
Why a truboprop? Why not the ct-155 that replaced their 114s?
thatCdnplaneguy@reddit
The CT-155 is already retired. We are waiting on a new Fast FAcT aircraft to be chosen. The RAAF Roulette’s also fly the PC-21. Sad to see the Tutors leaving, but also excited to see the next iteration. Should be able to do most, if not all of the Snowbirds passes with the PC-21.
YYZYYC@reddit
It’s not a jet. It will never be the same with a prop plane
quietflyr@reddit
FAcT has already chosen all their airframes and deliveries are beginning. They chose the CT157 Siskin II (a Pilatus PC-21, which is what they announced they will buy for the Snowbirds).
thatCdnplaneguy@reddit
FAcT has, not Fast FAcT. We have no chosen and replacement jet trainer. It is down to the T-7, F-50 or M-346
quietflyr@reddit
There is no such program as Fast FAcT.
There is FFLIT (Future Fighter Lead In Trainer), but no Fast FAcT.
thatCdnplaneguy@reddit
FLIT is the official name. Before that there was FAct and, unofficially, fast FAcT. I still use the old name i guess…just like I still call it the C-series. Lol
Camjay7@reddit
Talking to a RCAF tech he said the hawks we retired due to difficulties getting parts as they were out of production.
Drewski811@reddit
$$$
DarrowAuLykos@reddit
The Hawks have also been retired. This is the new advanced trainer.
Horror_Mix6247@reddit
They flew over my house last month on their transit to Comox for spring training. Who knew that would be the last time I'd ever see them fly
weaverd1984@reddit
As a kid my dad was Air Force and we were stationed in comox, every spring I looked forward to their training and being able to go on base and see them up close
grantpalin@reddit
Sad to see them go. I've seen them in action before, and it's always a show. The BC Aviation Museum (next to YVR) recently acquired a vintage Tutor CT-114 to display. They also have a Martin Mars (Hawaii Mars) that was officially retired in 2024. The Snowbirds were a part of Hawaii Mars' final flight.
TommiHPunkt@reddit
Everyone is using Pilatus turboprops for training these days, including the US Air Force and Navy (under license as the T-6)
110percent_canadian@reddit
The Pilatus equivalent pc-7 is not the same as the T-6 Texan II (Harvard II) the T6 Texan II is a beach craft, Raytheon (Textron product) which is a different airframe heavily design modified PC-7 / 9
quietflyr@reddit
It's really not that heavily modified. It's a PC-9.
TommiHPunkt@reddit
The T-6 Texan II fundamentally is a license built PC-9. If it wasn't they wouldn't have to pay for a license.
InazumaBRZ@reddit
As someone originally from 15 Wing this hurts deep, deep in my soul.
AlaskaGuy49@reddit
I don’t know, the PC-21 looks and sounds pretty cool to me.
https://youtu.be/tQAaRpGTSL8?si=yl6f_aDkkP2ijKaQ
spastical-mackerel@reddit
What’s a stripped down T-45 go for these days?
Rickkie_Kochar@reddit
it's the right call for safety, the tutors are ancient, but a decade-long gap basically kills the team's continuity. it’s a sad day for aviation fans, but you can't keep flying airframes from the 60s forever
ObservantOrangutan@reddit
I’m already concerned that when time comes to find money to restart the team, there won’t be the political or public willingness to do so. That’s when you get a lot of “well they haven’t existed in years and no one’s missed it”
OP_Skis_In_Jeans@reddit
Pretty much a microcosm for the poor state of military aviation in Canada unfortunately. Hopefully the new airplanes arrive on time.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
This was my first thought, as well. Canadian military procurement is such a farce at this point that of course their highly regarded demo team is being grounded because they don’t have planes.
LackOptimal553@reddit
Do you think the Snowbirds are remotely close to a procurement priority for the RCAF?
db7fromthe6@reddit
What is? Ntacs? Ii was in for for 25 years of sea king replacements being just around the corner.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
Of course they’re not a high priority. But it’s a very public symptom of RCAF’s, and the broader DND’s, complete inability to run even basic procurement programs.
LackOptimal553@reddit
There's no procurement program for a Snowbird replacement because there is no identified need for one. the demo team will fly the new trainers. Nothing to do with "inability to run", everything to do with "this is not a procurement".
Darius2112@reddit (OP)
With our track record in Canada, they’ll arrive late and for double the price.
funksoulbrothers@reddit
2030s in Canadian defence acquisition means 2040s
pf9k@reddit
50/50 the team never comes back for a million different reasons
Shoddy_Operation_742@reddit
I suspect if they do come back it will be far later than the 2030s. I can see the snowbirds being gone for a generation.
njsullyalex@reddit
Well I’m glad I got to see them last year before the Tutors were gone. The Snowbirds pilots are mega talented and their performance was top notch, but those poor old Tutors were looking incredibly tired.
FlyingPetRock@reddit
Whatever it is, it'd better have zero-zero seats.
Unconscionable to do formation acrobatics in a single engine jet with those ancient election seats for as long as they did.
muck2@reddit
"Grounded" is a strange word here. Surely, the squadron will effectively cease to exist, I mean, why would pilots want to stay in a squadron where they can't fly for four whole years? They'll effectively have to start all over again, I assume?
conehead1313@reddit
Here is the PC-21 replacements;
SuperM1ke@reddit
I don't think the powers that be are going to want to spend the cash on new jets and training etc. It is, after all, just PR. They've been on borrowed time for a long time. Probably only due to the aviation techs keeping those ancient planes flying. The shitty Reform Conservatives will make noise off this either way: "too expensive, get props", "too cheap...they need jets", "we want the Snowbirds", "we don't need the Snowbirds". Pick whichever they think will make the PM look bad in that moment. It's like 24 Sussex.
Striking-Ad299@reddit
Doubt the replacement will actually take place, honestly. Even if it does, the team will be a shell of its former self.
What a damn shame.
luv2ctheworld@reddit
Ah man... I loved their performances.
They weren't loud like the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels, but they had more birds in the air and did some spectacular maneuvers with them.
Fizzy_Astronaut@reddit
I guess the Abbotsford airshow isn’t going to have either the snowbirds or the growlers this year. Bummer but is what it is I guess. 🤷♂️
turniphat@reddit
The Snowbirds are finishing the 2026 season before they are grounded.
Chaxterium@reddit
Part of the reason I’m a pilot today is because of the Snowbirds. They were the coolest thing in the world to 10-year-old me.
AlwayzPro@reddit
I saw them once...
Ornery-Lynx-3520@reddit
As the article says, the CT-114 is six decades old and need replacing.
It’d be nice to migrate the fleet to a warbirds demonstration squadron though, however that is a costly venture and probably best left to the former pilots who want to do this in an amateur context and not at the taxpayers expense.
OP_Skis_In_Jeans@reddit
Warbirds are awesome, but the maintenance difficulties for an entire squadron's worth would be far worse than the current situation. Obtaining spare parts alone would be a hugely expensive and time intensive challenge.
zestzebra@reddit
A few years ago at Abbotsford, BC. The Snowbirds.
JBN2337C@reddit
Mom: “We have the Thunderbirds at home…”
I’m glad they’re not gonna disband. Canada deserves its Team! Shame there’s no viable jet option.
Upside… perhaps they can fly more demonstrations with the new planes.
EmergencyWorld6057@reddit
They won't
Demos take a huge toll on the pilots and techs.
They're also extremely expensive.
Depending on how much demos and tours you have, they barely see their families do to their schedules.
WhiskeyMikeMike@reddit
Following the 2026 season
billmurray43@reddit
Well that’s a shame to go so long without them.
It’ll be weird not seeing the Tutors when they come back as well
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