Indian officials to visit Seattle for Boeing fuel-switch test linked to Air India London accident
Posted by JKKIDD231@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 192 comments
theyoyomaster@reddit
So a switch that locks in place and must be lifted to move, moved when lifted… got it.
JKKIDD231@reddit (OP)
That’s exactly what DGCA said, they don’t believe the Air India pilots either as they tested it and so did UK staff at the London airport and Boeing.
They have a final report due on that crash next month and they want Boeing to test it in a controlled lab testing to assure everyone that fuel switches cannot be moved outside of human control by putting it thru different rigors and Boeing will present same reliefs they unless human moves it, that switch ain’t going anywhere.
theyoyomaster@reddit
That's simply not the case, they want to create a shred of doubt so they can claim that it was a design flaw and now deliberate action by their pilots. That's why any time this comes up it is worthwhile to point out that the switches worked exactly as intended and must be deliberately manipulated.
fredly594632@reddit
Yeah, I agree. This specific evolution is all about certain Parties being able to say "reluctantly" before the word "agree", or even a "well, the test was inconclusive".
(I'm a mechanic with Boeing experience and a retired FAA inspector. That said, I have only a little experience on the 787.)
The way I see it is that the only situation where a switch of that design could move uncommanded from one position to the other is essentially a complete failure of the switch. In that condition, they likely wouldn't have been able to get them working originally to start engines. This failure would have to be coupled with some sort of really heavy vibration/shock to get the post vertically over the retaining gate just before the fuel cutoff event.
So now we've got three very unlikely things - - a switch bad enough to just make one more transition before completely failing - a crew legitimately not noticing that the switch was now limp and bad (or possibly it being bad for a long time and no-one writing it up), and - a situation that causes high enough vibration on the pedestal to have the switch jump over the gate but is faint enough to not be detected by the FDR.
x2 (both switches) simultaneously occurring.
Or. We have a human factors issue.
I completely understand and respect the cultural issues. In an aircraft accident, you really do need to investigate every reasonable possibility. I just have questions as to if investigating a switch design that hasn't changed in decades is a reasonable technical probability.
This really is starting to remind me of Egypt Air 990 or SilkAir 185.
64bittechie@reddit
I don’t know what the truth is. In all likelihood this is an intentional act. However, I agree all reasonable possibilities must be investigated. Here’s a possibility that doesn’t seem to have been surfaced - while the design of the switch hasn’t changed could the manufacturing process / material have changed over time? For example, let’s say they switch from metal parts to plastic ones? Maybe the cheaper material could’ve failed in a way that was unforeseen? Maybe both switches were sourced from the same batch and that batch has some manufacturing defects?
Icy-idkman3890@reddit
It’s India
airfryerfuntime@reddit
It's Air India, and by extension the Indian government, trying to throw doubt into mix so they can say "welp, I guess it's inconclusive!", then they'll just let public opinion blame the west.
Mindless-Classroom97@reddit
Air India is private company, not controlled by Govt.
GrundleBlaster@reddit
As if this is a meaningful distinction when both parties share the exact same incentive.
Hejdbejbw@reddit
Still a flag carrier
theyoyomaster@reddit
I mean, the official response here is terrible but it’s not like the west has a great way of handling pilot mental health.
10art1@reddit
At least requiring a second person always be in the cockpit is an attempt at addressing the problem.
theyoyomaster@reddit
There were two pilots at the controls when this crash happened.
10art1@reddit
Air india, yeah.
Honestly I don't have a clue how to fix air india. But 2 people in the cockpit would have stopped germanwings
Iamrandom17@reddit
wasn’t this rule eased in europe too a few years ago? i think now it’s no longer mandatory to have 2 people in the cockpit again and it’s up to the airline?
WhiskeyTesticles@reddit
Is there any other country or culture that handles pilot’s mental health better than the west?
theyoyomaster@reddit
No, and democracy is the worse form of government except for all the others.
mb194dc@reddit
Not if you misuse them, that would never happen in India.., not following SOP for something quite important?
Investigations revealed that the issues were primarily a result of pilot operating technique rather than a mechanical defect.Incorrect Force Application: When pilots applied force in an incorrect direction or angle (rather than the precise pull-and-toggle motion specified in Boeing's manual), the angular base plate could allow the switch to slip out of the locked "RUN" detent.
craiv@reddit
It's quite common in investigations like this to have all the parties winess the same test together. The outcome will be a joint document that outlines what all parties agree and disagree on.
hamburgerjesus@reddit
I’m sorry but this is clearly a cultural issue of Indians being unable to take blame. No developed country should take this seriously.
planned_fun@reddit
I will never fly this god for saken in denial clown show of an airline ever in my life
coweatyou@reddit
Either they're doing everything in their power to cover up for a dead pilot instead of putting in place protections to prevent this from happening again or they are flying unsafe aircraft that have a serious malfunction only observed on they airframes. Both cases are a no from me
PeckerNash@reddit
I’ll go with cover-up any time when it comes to that sh*t airline and saving face government.
Bird_nostrils@reddit
Same thing as EgyptAir 990. Admitting that you had a murderous/suicidal employee would be too difficult to accept. It would make too many people look bad. So just obfuscate.
sevaiper@reddit
Preventing pilot suicide is a very difficult problem. It’s not obvious what mitigations could prevent this.
s0ul_invictus@reddit
The only thing they need to do is EXACTLY what China did - don't blame anything else. Then we all know, it can only be the one thing, and we won't place demands on them to spell out the horrible ugly thing. We will lay all to rest and work quietly to ensure it can never happen again to the best of our ability. I can afford them this grace.
But this insistence on blaming MY airplane is unacceptable, and for that they WILL be humiliated. -1000 IZZAT
freak-000@reddit
Addressing the problem would be the first and most important step in breaking the stigma around mental health issues that often leads to suicide. If anything refusing to even talk about it is making it worse
totheredditmobile@reddit
Mental health and company/authority-level awareness and sympathy towards it is incredibly surface level. The minute you even hint at being depressed or anxious you'll get your medical pulled, so we're incentivised to bottle everything up and never address it. And when you do address it and temporarily relinquish your medical to seek treatment the majority of people will poke fun.
Tricky_Big_8774@reddit
I'm gonna be the elephant in the room here and say they should be pulling medical for depression and anxiety. Find a different career. If they can't cope with their own life on a daily basis then they don't need to be in direct control of hundreds of other people's lives. I don't care that they love flying and have dreamed about being about a pilot since they were 5 years old. It's 100% selfishness to place their desires above the lives of other people.
The airlines need to be strictly monitoring the pilots and other pilots need to get rid of any bro code mentality and say something if they see any issues.
totheredditmobile@reddit
You don't get to decide when and if you start feeling a bit wobbly mentally. Add shift working and high pressure moments throughout a career, expecting someone to remain mentally perfect is disingenuous at best.
Also the tone of your second paragraph directly contradicts your first. Arguing against a bro code mentality while also arguing that someone who's going through it should change careers doesn't make much sense, when that attitude is what I was commenting on in the first place.
Vast_Engineering_626@reddit
Depression and anxiety don’t mean that you can’t cope though. They’re natural responses to the world we live in and they’re incredibly common. Brain chemistry is extremely powerful
Tricky_Big_8774@reddit
Then we need to come up with different words for natural, everyday brain chemistry and medical issues that could lead to suicide and other problems.
Pretty_Marsh@reddit
De-stigmatization and reform are incredibly important, but in my mind that's for the benefit of pilot wellbeing and the associated safety advantages. If someone is the type of person who would ever consider taking down hundreds of people with them, they shouldn't be anywhere near a cockpit. That's like orders of magnitude beyond mass shootings.
To me, these sorts of pilots are the needles in the haystack that FAA and others are looking for when they scrutinize mental health issues on medical certification. The trouble is that they often do this by treating the hay like needles until proven otherwise.
declassified15@reddit
Just look at the whole germanwings episode that pilot was getting mental health support and checks but when it became clear that admitting mental health issues would be detrimental to his flying career he stopped getting support until he took down the plane. Honestly an incredibly difficult problem.
Pretty_Marsh@reddit
Yeah, but "make mental health services available or pilots will commit mass murder" isn't a great look. More like "don't let cases like GermanWings or Air India cause pilots with run-of-the-mill mental health struggles to go through a certification nightmare." How do you find the guys who would take down a plane? I don't know, but it's probably not by running pilots with depression through neurocognitive testing at their own expense.
Epiphany818@reddit
"I don't know, but it's probably not by running pilots with depression through neurocognitive testing at their own expense."
Actually that's exactly how you find them! The caveat is you find them after the tragedy happens.
Ekenda@reddit
The problem is that no airline will ever keep an even remotely suicidal pilot on it's payroll and let them fly, because can you imagine the apocalyptic response to an incident with a pilot that has a history of mental health issues, even if they were cleared for flying by multiple psychologists? Admitting to mental health issues as a pilot is a career ender and they know it. I genuinely don't know how you're supposed to overcome the public pressure and outrage that would come from such an incident and the airlines just kinda don't wanna risk it.
erin281@reddit
Acknowledging that it’s a problem is the barest minimum of a start.
Successful-Bobcat701@reddit
That's true. But a good start would be to admit that the problem exists.
UFO64@reddit
The goal of safety measures is not perfection, it's better.
It feels exceedingly obvious to me that the mitigation of medical care would have saved hundreds of lives.
Super_Forever_5850@reddit
To my knowledge there has been very obvious signs that some of the pilots who have done this in previous incidents where having severe mental issues. Of course it's difficult to offer 100% protection against this ever happening again but It seems unquestionable that there are obvious steps the industry could and should take to limit the risk.
Better routines for monitoring and dealing with crew that show signs of mental issues would be one of them.
crazy_pilot742@reddit
But rather than address that possibility Air India is doing everything they can to select blame to Boeing.
AdoringCHIN@reddit
This has nothing to do with the Air India flight that crashed
chaosattractor@reddit
Or you could try opening the article and discover that it's talking about a different incident.
Old_Lengthiness_250@reddit
You have a pretty high bar for flying on air india. The airline has been shit for decades and this is pretty much the outcome of the political and social regression in india under the current government.
Moral-Relativity@reddit
Maybe this will finally lead to a groundbreaking discovery that local laws of physics may be subject to change, unlocking the path to warp drive and shit.
Main_Violinist_3372@reddit
So the aircraft (VT-ANX/Flight 132) apparently had an “issue” with the fuel control switches on the ground at Heathrow. The crew notices it and decides to still continue with the flight, puting the lives of everyone on board in danger assuming there actually was an issue with the fuel control switches (there probally wasn’t and is just an attempt to try and avoid the pilot suicide/mass murder theory for Air India 171)
You can see how the pilot suicide/mass murder deniers try and frame this as another piece of evidence that there was somehow a problem with the 787, when it only shows just how unsafe Air India is as an airline.
Either there was no issue with these fuel control switches and the pilots saw no reason to return to the gate/ground the flight or they were so ballsy to fly an airplane full of passengers to the other side of the world knowing there was something wrong with it.
Plus it seems a bit suspicious that Air India still flies the 787, has not grounded their 787s, took new deliveries of factory fresh 787s recently, and no other carrier or regulatory body has grounded the 787 as a result of Air India 171.
Overall, India wouldn’t be such a laughing stock if they didn’t try to deflect and reject the pilot suicide/mass murder theory regarding flight 171.
Charlie2343@reddit
On the flip side morons like captain Steve said it was completely impossible that the fuel switches could have moved on their own. I have no idea what happened on that flight but to be so certain before any investigation had actually started was obnoxious and not helpful.
10art1@reddit
Was he way off? You say he rushed to judgment but is he known for being wrong?
Insaneclown271@reddit
It is impossible.
FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit
The captain flipped the fuel switches in a mass murder/suicide plot.
The end.
khristmas_karl@reddit
Yeah, this is where the ill logic of the conspiracy people shines through for me:
If I had a gun to my head and was told I had to bet my life savings on it either being a Boeing conspiracy or an Air India internal problem, I'm betting Air India any day of the week.
Does not matter if I think Boeing is capable of initiating a cover up here. Air India people being at fault given the background circumstances is a MUCH safer bet lol.
I'd be embarrassed to take a position on the other side of that bet.
agha0013@reddit
For Boeing to be pulling a coverup on this would require basically every other 787 operator in the world needing to be in on it as well as they'd also be reporting similar issues with their aircraft.
that'd be one hell of a cover up...
Old_Lengthiness_250@reddit
Boeing has a history of being less than honest in its dealings with regulators and airlines. Whilst I dont disagree with your overall position id take everything Boeing denies with a grain of salt.
agha0013@reddit
it's not just boeing! that's basically the whole point of my comment.
If it was just Air India against Boeing, yeah we could sit and watch two liars go at each other
In this case, it's Boeing, several regulators, and pretty much every airline that operates 787s (and the other types with the same system) saying that whatever the fuck happened with Air India's planes is proving basically impossible to replicate.
khristmas_karl@reddit
Correct
TheMusicArchivist@reddit
Your logic is fine in that the most likely option is that the Boeing was fine and the pilot wasn't. But if I had a gun to my head and told to bet my life savings on an air crash being 100% guaranteed to be from a single cause, I wouldn't. There is still a tiny chance that there's something fundamentally wrong with some 787s, and burying that tiny percentage under the carpet doesn't help anyone.
khristmas_karl@reddit
That's not the hypothetical though. If I had 2 choices, I'd bet Air India is wrong here. That's the point.
I'm not siding with Air India given the factors. They're completely out to lunch to propose this thread of doubt as an explanation to a crash that every sign is screaming was pilot error.
NastroAzzurro@reddit
Calling it the “Air India London accident” is offensive
KinkySFGreek@reddit
Didn’t the plan crash in India?
Milmonn@reddit
This is referring to an incident in February of this year on an Air India flight in London. That's the fuel switch that is being tested.
CeleritasLucis@reddit
That opens a whole lot of other issue for them. Either the switches were faulty, and the aircraft should've been grounded. And they flew it back to India despite that. Aviation authorities aren't gonna ignore that
Teucheter@reddit
If I recall correctly, there was some noise about it when it happened. Air India didn’t report the issue until the plane landed back in India - most likely because they have limited or no maintenance in London.
Kinda suspicious that two AI plans have the same fault but no other airline reports this issue.
t-poke@reddit
I mean, isn't part of being an airline to have procedures in place to get planes fixed at outstations when they break and aren't safe to fly back to your maintenance facility?
Teucheter@reddit
At outstations they would have a contract with some local company for maintenance but given the state of AI’s finances I doubt they want to incur the costs.
And the additional compensation they’d have to pay for the delay.
Mackey_Corp@reddit
I mean if an airline can’t afford that kind of thing, or it’s something they even have to think about, they shouldn’t be flying. Like if they have to start doing math to figure out if they can fix their plane they have already failed as a business.
peroxidase2@reddit
Air India flight in London
Air india flight to London.
AdoringCHIN@reddit
Different airplane, different incident
agha0013@reddit
there are two separate things being discussed. Some of it has to do with the crash in India, but there's also a focus on an incident AI reported in London with another aircraft that is at best hugely suspicious (against the airline)
the linked story is more focused on the London incident (and I use incident because it absolutely was not an accident by any definition)
KinkySFGreek@reddit
Ahhh thx for the clarification
substanceandmodes@reddit
Yes. Very shortly after takeoff.
VerdugoCortex@reddit
34 seconds to be precise
Main_Violinist_3372@reddit
Yeah so there’s the one that crashed that was heading to London Gatwick (Flight 171/VT-ANB) and the one that this article references is Air India flight 132/VT-ANX
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
To be fair the UK CAA seems a hell of a lot more interested in investigating why Air India pilots flew a supposedly unairworthy plane thousands of miles than India’s regulators are. So in that sense it is a London driven investigation!
Informal_Ad_9610@reddit
dats wacist!
show_me_your_silly@reddit
No one has insinuated that though. Even in Indian aviation subreddits, the official story about AI171 by the DGCA is treated with skepticism.
Informal_Ad_9610@reddit
it was a joke, margaret.
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Drunkgummybear1@reddit
Can’t wait to see a totally unexplainable uptick in the usage of “Britisher”.
Emotional-Ad-6494@reddit
PR team hard at work
_SmashLampjaw_@reddit
They'll be along here in the comments shortly.
pementomento@reddit
lol this is so pathetic. no wonder all my Indian friends avoid Air India.
rd1z@reddit
Boeing should cancel all outstanding orders by Indian airlines
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
And yet the flight still departed, which is just insane.
agha0013@reddit
If they were really having that issue and not just making it up to try and provide a back up to the crash narrative, that flight would never have departed.
NyJosh@reddit
What’s hysterical is their story combined with them actually departing would just tell me as a passenger that airline is reckless and willing to fly a potentially defective plane on a long haul flight. They just screwed themselves either way, just for the sake of defending someone from a higher caste that would bring embarrassment and shame to those that are at an alleged higher level than others in society just because of who their parents are.
iceman_andre@reddit
My father used to live in India.
He was forbidden by contract to ever fly Air India as it was deemed a safety risk. Even if he wanted to buy a ticket on his own we was not allowed and could be fired. That’s all I needed to know
Bluemikami@reddit
Who was his employer? I’d like to know
PeckerNash@reddit
Union Carbide.
CollegeStation17155@reddit
Carbide in India is in a very delicate situation because of the possible (probable) coverup of the cause in the Bohpal disaster. The most probable initiator was a workman's hooking up a water hose to the wrong storage tank, but the Indian government refused to allow Carbide to enter the plant after the accident and "determined" themselves that the tank spontaneously erupted due to Carbide's negligence before bulldozing the plant including all the evidence.
Unlucky_Buy217@reddit
Oh fuck off. Except union carbide, no one brought up the sabotage theory.
https://np.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/uEkiD4Geu5
ChadUSECoperator@reddit
Good ol' Indian way. I guess they have enough people to sacrifice for every fuck up that happens there without causing massive outrage.
Unlucky_Buy217@reddit
Fuck your father. Union carbide is a pathetic company that lead to thousands of deaths.
skyye99@reddit
I mean it could be their maintenance shop, we know it's horrendously bad
agha0013@reddit
I don't know what maintenance would be doing to the planes to cause dual fuel switch failures like this. It's a pretty basic mechanical design that prevents switches from moving on their own or even if you brush up against them. They'd have to be physically removing bits during maintenance.
CollegeStation17155@reddit
Or simply not checking the indent for wear as the procedure calls for... You know like when the maintance crew skipped lubing the trim jack screw because it was "too difficult" to reach. I think that was Alaska Air.
fly_awayyy@reddit
More than 1300 units in service they started using those switches on the 737 MAX too let that sink In.
TravelerJim-retired@reddit
What’s your point?
agha0013@reddit
I'd say their point is that there are over 3600 aircraft (787s and 737Ms) in service that use the same fuel switch design and have had no faults where they just switch off on their own
TravelerJim-retired@reddit
I am aware of this fuel switch (or very similar version) used in thousands of aircraft over decades. I was curious if they were singling out “MAX” for some reason.
fly_awayyy@reddit
No I wasn’t as the other poster pointed out i was reinforcing their point and another one pointed out a great point of the 777X which I didn’t consider. That was my point but thanks.
flightist@reddit
A good chunk of late-run NGs got them too.
Sportyj@reddit
It’s because it’s pure bullshit.
Insaneclown271@reddit
They either didn’t place the switch over the interlock correctly or they are being cunts and are part of the coverup.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
Is there voice recording to support this?
FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit
There won't be a recording because the pilots just continued on and flew a long haul flight home to India before reporting it. The CVR would have been overwritten.
532ndsof@reddit
Of course not. Since it wasn't reported at the time the CVR will have long since been written over by subsequent flights.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
In other news the two Air India pilots who suddenly reporting this just got promoted to Most Extreme Integrity Best Valuable Flying Officer, First Class.
(Check real estate holdings records for recent property transfers of Ganges beachfront vacation homes.)
532ndsof@reddit
Amazing, the first 2 to ever reach that rank! Their skill, integrity, and competence must be unmatched in history!
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
Because it's made up
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Even if it's true, if the fuel control / engine master switch doesn't stay in on/run position, you wouldn't try it 3 times, but you'd go back to stand/gate and get it checked by an engineer.
streetmagix@reddit
That's why the UK CAA flipped their lid when they heard about it, and wanted answers from Air India.
I have no idea if Air India ever responded, and it sounds like the CAA isn't answering any questions about it from Reuters.
bankkopf@reddit
UK/EU should just threaten a ban from their airspaces if no satisfactory answer can be given. Passengers safety should be the top priority and someone is not sticking to that principle.
SkippyNordquist@reddit
Yes, I think that if Air India's story were actually true, it would make them look more incompetent, not less.
PeckerNash@reddit
I would fly Soviet era Aeroflot before modern day AI.
firstLOL@reddit
They did it years ago with PIA when it turned out a significant percentage of their pilots licences were fraudulent. I think it’s only in the last couple of years PIA flights have been cleared back into the EU / London. Air India of course brings up much more sensitive diplomatic considerations, especially for the UK - not that this should ever be relevant in a discussion about airline safety.
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
That's how you know it's made up.
ActivityIcy4926@reddit
India is doing anything not to have to blame one of the pilots for doing this deliberately.
Meanwhile, this can easily happen again because of inaction by Indian aviation authorities.
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
I mean the funny thing is this pilot probably did it on his own accord thinking he was doing a favor and now the Indian government kind of has to commit to a lie they probably didn't even want to be apart of lol
It's either that or they have to acknowledge a pilot on their flag carrier flew a plane that he knew full well was having issues.
They are screwed
the-player-of-games@reddit
No pilot is going to put their career on the line by pulling a stunt like that unless the airline was involved
Air India put on a full court press release after the incident, geared at the Indian domestic audience
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
So air India told him too?
Yeah no. This is just some overzealous guy
the-player-of-games@reddit
Yeah no. Air India planned the whole thing
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
No this was just some overzealous pilot.
This makes them look worse
the-player-of-games@reddit
You don't seem to realize that what this "overzealous pilot" did was in violation of some critical safety rules
If it's just the pilot, why wasn't he fired?
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
Because Air India wants to blame the plane
the-player-of-games@reddit
Which is why they told the pilot to make it up
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
Naw.
They would just make it up on the India side. Why make something up in the UK causing a UK investigation?
the-player-of-games@reddit
The glaring incompetence with which they have handled this matter from the day the preliminary report came out is pretty evident
PinaColadaSalad@reddit
Or the pilot just made shit up.
Comprehensive_Meat34@reddit
Pilots will report even a tiny broken plastic seal on a bag with a mask inside that they’ll never ever use, that has nothing to do with the aircraft flying.
ANYTHING to do with actual controls… flight, fuel, hydraulic etc will be an immediate grounding.
Pilots will even ask for maintenance if the clocks aren’t set to utc after a battery change.
JKKIDD231@reddit (OP)
DGGC already said they found no issues with the controls and cleared it. They are just taking extra precautions to see in a control lab setting that can anything move the fuel switches outside of human control which will come back as nill.
ActivityIcy4926@reddit
They're only doing it because they're in collective denial. There's no rational reason to do this test because we know it wasn't a fault with the fuel switches.
seattle747@reddit
This right here.
I’m a pilot. That’s just insane…or trying to create a false narrative…….. 😗
Own-Inflation8771@reddit
They prbly pushed the locks firmly down confirming positive engagement into the run detent on the switches.
ImissTBBT@reddit
I'm suspecting we will see this investigation go the say of Egyptair 990 where the factual evidence and conclusion says pilot suicide and the Egyptian government claimed mechanical failure and produced no evidence to corroborate.
With EgyptAir 990 however, there was clear evidence of foul play as the relief first officer is heard on the First officer microphone to say "In god I trust" then forward pressure is applied to the first officer's control yoke. Putting the plane in a dive. And the forward pressure remains there. Even when the Captain is heard coming back shouting words to the effect of "what are you doing?" then back pressure being applied to the Captain's yoke. Cut and dry evidence of deliberate actions.
However, with this AI crash, other than the position of the fuel cut of switches registering as moving from RUN ot CUTOFF and back to RUN eventually, there is unlikely to be any other evidence of control manipulation than the attempts made by the other pilot to max out the glide angle. (and attempt to restart the engines, which was partly successful, but with not enough time to spool up and product thrust).
So, if AI are being unscrupulous and trying to deflect blame, short of video evidence showing one of the pilots reaching down to the fuel switches, it's going to be tough to argue against whatever AI want to claim. There will always be a shadow of doubt, and that's enough for the conspiracy theorists to run with, which they already are.
RogLatimer118@reddit
One of the pilots on the CVR asked why the other pilot turned off the switches.
Thequiet01@reddit
Yes but how do you know the person who asked isn’t the one who did it, trying to deflect blame?
RogLatimer118@reddit
Of course, but that would not imply that the switches had a hardware problem.
Thequiet01@reddit
I didn’t say it did.
RogLatimer118@reddit
The comment I replied to said "other than the position of the fuel cut of switches registering as moving from RUN ot CUTOFF and back to RUN eventually, there is unlikely to be any other evidence of control manipulation than the attempts made by the other pilot to max out the glide angle."
Thequiet01@reddit
Arguably one pilot could ask the other about the switches being turned off also if the plane was just behaving suddenly as if they had been turned off. I don’t think one line from the recorder is definitive evidence of anything by itself.
CollegeStation17155@reddit
Yes, it was that 30 second glide while trying to spool up the engines that makes me wonder if one of the pilots was fatigued or narcoleptic when he flipped the swithes thinking he was doing something else then tried to undo the mistake. Had either pilot WANTED to crash the plane, a sudden hard yank on the controls just after rotation would have put it into the ground much sooner, and a shout of something like "BIRDS!" would have had the investigation closed long since with "Failed attempt to avoid a bird strike on takeoff".
And (getting out the conspiracy hat here) a week after the crash, investigators ordering AI to fire the head of the scheduling departmment as soon as they looked at the records, maybe for altering those records to send up a pilot with no down time?
tbfkak@reddit
Why is Boeing even entertaining this? Why are they continuing to sell planes to them? It’s just insanity, dealing with people that are in total denial of reality. Out of the hundreds of 787 operaters it’s only Air India with this ‘problem’, what does that tell us?
vyrago@reddit
"Indian investigators unsatisfied with Boeing fuel-switch test results"
ContributionEasy6513@reddit
The good ole 'keep doing tests until we get the answer we want'.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
Resulting in London flight problem.
GinnyJr@reddit
No way we’re still doing this
khristmas_karl@reddit
That's not the hypothetical though. If I had 2 choices, I'd bet Air India is wrong here.
IFHIAIEJ@reddit
I wouldn't get on any indian airline even if you bought be first class tickets. Hell, I wouldn't even want to take a flight that flies over india because of their lack of ATC professionalism
SlaveKnightSoman@reddit
What lack of ATC professionalism?
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
Is it just me or the next time Air India purchases some AC who else feels they will ask for a steep discount because, “The last batch was no good; bad switches. Six million dollars. Take it Boeing and go.”
Texas_Kimchi@reddit
LOL, they really dying on this hill?
engapol123@reddit
There is definitely a cultural element to the stubborn refusal to admit responsibility.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
Look, let’s just say what happened, happened. I’ll pay you next time.
NavXIII@reddit
My Indian dad does the same thing. Seen a lot of them get defensive when you catch them doing something illegal.
Texas_Kimchi@reddit
I notice this at my job too. High reluctance to admit fault in things even minor things. Gets exhausting.
ThePevster@reddit
Extremely common for developing countries to refuse to admit pilot suicide occurred. Some sort of inferiority complex. In the last thirty years the only countries willing to admit their pilots committed mass murder are an underdeveloped country (Mozambique) and a developed country (Germany). Indonesia, Egypt, Malaysia, China, and India all deny it.
llm_fodder@reddit
If you’ve worked with offshore contractors who are incompetent…this is not new behavior.
Texas_Kimchi@reddit
My friend, I am in IT. If someone tells me to do the needful one more time, they will find out what the needful really is.
Which_Material_3100@reddit
The post crash photos show the switches in the “run” position. Apparently they can withstand the g-forces of an actual crash so…
Probodyne@reddit
I've not been wildly impressed by the attitude to this investigation on this sub. There's been a constant accusation of a cover-up which just doesn't seem to be true, at least on the part of the dgca. Lots of people here also seem extremely resistant to even the idea of investigating the possibility of mechanical issues?
Additionally, I was pretty unimpressed with the responses to a germanwings post I saw a few months ago which really vilified the pilot, which I do understand but is pretty antithetical to actually improving the treatment of mental health issues among pilots and the same thing is happening here.
I'm continuing to reserve judgement until the final report, because I think that's the responsible thing to do, and I'm sure if there are major disagreements between parties the NTSB or AAIB will release something like the French BEA did with regards to EgyptAir 804.
Jet-Rep@reddit
boondoggle....
King-Fish1@reddit
Seattle is beautiful in the summer. The will have a great time if the head to the the many Puget Sound islands, enjoy Pike Place market downtown, or even the views at all the waterfront restaurants.
Pinecone1000@reddit
Or they will spend the whole time in a room flipping a mechanical switch thousands of times hoping for just one bad latch somehow. Arguing during the entire process. Sounds like a fun trip.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
They'll also be under intense pressure from the Indian government to 'replicate' it. They will not be having fun time.
Cardinal-guy-2023@reddit
All show.
ZealousidealGrab1827@reddit
Flew them once out of Delhi. Airport was closed for a bomb threat. Then opened. Plane had the aura of duct tape and prayers. This was back 15 years, or so ago. Never again.
Thequiet01@reddit
Look, it sounds stupid, but on the other hand this level of “okay, fine, we’ll test it” is a big part of why aviation is as safe as it is. On rare occasions persistence in testing has found an actual legitimate fault that was then corrected. So that means you do the tests even if you’re pretty sure what the result is going to be, Just In Case. That 1% of the time when your test doesn’t turn out the way you think it will is worth it.
So celebrate the fact the testing is being done even if you think Air India is asking for it for a dumb reason?
wrongwayup@reddit
Everyone at Boeing: "This could have been an email"
panzerboye@reddit
At this point this is really a PR nightmare, they are doing so much to cover for their dead pilot just of the sake of nationalism. It is deeply unfair to the victims.
spedeedeps@reddit
Boeing biting their tongue hard as shit rn. Wants to tell the clown show accident investigation board of India or whatever to pound sand, but can't do that because they want India to buy planes in the future, lol.
So they have to host the delegation and show them that no, indeed our fuel cut-off switches aren't motorized and do not move on their own!
What would be the funniest thing in the observable universe is, if Boeing would capitulate after the investigator's release their final report and look into making sure the switches are better protected just to allow the Indians to save a quadrant of face.
FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit
I think this is actually somewhat likely. Give them some sort of meaningless modification.
PozhanPop@reddit
Yeah right !
Top_Riski@reddit
Is there a way to find out my pilots nationality before flying? Never want an indian pilot.
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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8BallsAndBaseballs@reddit
r/aviation is great because you can say AI is trash and it means two things!
AlternativeSwimmer89@reddit
The switches literally stayed on after withstanding the crash. Not beating the 3rd world country allegations.
Messyfingers@reddit
Deganges isn't just a river in Egypt.
Comfortable-Pen-836@reddit
“accident”?
Tel_Janen@reddit
Still trying to save the pilots reputation. Air India never fails
thatwombat@reddit
This is almost the plot to the book Airframe.
KeynoteBS@reddit
India is in a severe Hindu nationalist/terrorist phase right now and one of the key tenets of that is always placing blame on other nations and religions.
Once the actual reports come out, the politics will make sure to edit and obfuscate the facts (suicide) and the media will be told to drop the story and focus on other things.
Guaranteed this is how it will play out. Someone give me extra points for this next prediction if it comes true: they’ll focus on blaming Christianity or Islam as their next news cycle. Really sad and terrible time for the victims families who will never get an apology or see justice.
IndBeak@reddit
Do you always hallucinate this much.
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actionerror@reddit
More like the Air India intentional pilot crash incident
HatRemov3r@reddit
Send them to a suicide prevention facility next
aljobar@reddit
I hope they try out some really great Teriyaki spots when they’re there. And also have it explained through their corrupt fucking skulls that engines don’t switch themselves off. Oh! Also the gum wall.
JKKIDD231@reddit (OP)
During the February incident in London, the pilots observed during the engine start that the fuel switches did not remain fixed in the "run" position on the first two attempts when light vertical pressure was applied but were stable on a third try before takeoff, India's Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) said previously.
UK authorities investigated the incident, but Boeing privately told Air India in February the module containing the fuel switches was found to be "serviceable," according to an email seen by Reuters. The DGCA had said the switches passed checks.
The module was nevertheless sent to a Boeing facility in Seattle for testing, according to confidential emails seen by Reuters being reported for the first time.
As "the matter is sensitive in nature, Air India is hereby directed to ensure that the strip/test examination at OEM's (Boeing) premises is carried out in the presence of a DGCA officer," Manish Kumar, a DGCA deputy director of airworthiness, wrote in his March 9 email.
While it is not unusual for planemakers to perform such analyses for airline customers, the email did not explain why India's regulator considered the matter sensitive and insisted on attending.
In a statement, Air India said the module was confirmed as "fully functional" by Boeing and the DGCA, but the decision to proceed with further testing is "understood to be intended to ensure a thorough and conclusive evaluation ... as a measure of abundant caution."
The additional testing "involves examination in a controlled laboratory environment to definitively confirm its performance and integrity," said Air India, which is owned by the Tata Group and Singapore Airlines.
The DGCA, Kumar and Boeing did not respond to Reuters' queries.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
It’s important to note that the crew that claimed the fuel cutoff switches would not stay in position then flew the plane all the way to London before reporting the problem so they very clearly were not too concerned about it.
This is just more coverup attempts by AI and Indian politicians trying to blame Boeing and not a suicidal pilot.
post-explainer@reddit
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