Nato fighter jet shot down stray Ukrainian drone over Estonia

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larrythecucumberer@reddit

I mean for obvious political reasons NATO members don't view it the same way as they do with the Russians- but their tolerance of these events will 100% result in Ukraine eventually accidentally striking something sensitive in an allied nation. Their latest generation of drones include several models that supposedly select targets independently of the operator, based on AI image training. The growing pains of this technology will almost certainly result in friendly fire.

NATO already charted their course tho, so I don't see this changing anyone's stance on the war.

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KronusTempus@reddit

but their tolerance of these events will 100% result in Ukraine eventually accidentally striking something sensitive in an allied nation.

Two Ukrainian drones struck an oil depot in Latvia last week. The facility has been closed and that led to the resignation of first the defense minister and then the prime minister as well.

[-]

SOHONEYSAME@reddit

yeah.

& a sea drone was found in a Greek island, recently.

"Greece has escalated diplomatic pressure, after a suspected Ukrainian naval drone was discovered off the island of Lefkada, with Foreign Minister George Gerapetritis saying that “any transformation of the Mediterranean into a theater of military operations will not be tolerated.”

"Following talks in Athens with his Croatian counterpart Gordan Grlic Radman, Gerapetritis added that “Greece will ensure that the Mediterranean remains untouched by military operations and remains a sea of peace, a sea belonging to its peoples.”

"Greece maintains that the drone was deployed in its territorial waters by Ukraine in an apparent attempt to strike a ship "carrying Russian oil" in the Mediterranean. Ukrainian authorities have twice denied having information about the vessel, which was packed with explosives.

"According to reports, the sea drone was either launched in the area from a merchant vessel or originated from a military base the Ukrainians are believed to maintain in the city of Misrata in Libya".

https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/s/GRxaFL0nQp

[-]

imunfair@reddit

a sea drone was found in a Greek island, recently.

They should have really held Ukraine's feet over the fire when they started attacking targets in the Mediterranean - that's far outside their jurisdiction and playing in Europe's private sea, not something you want happening in your backyard, especially not being caused by a flailing beggar nation you're keeping on life support.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

I think NATO/EU have sunk cost fallacy going on, even if Ukraine killed civilians in the Mediterranean they would sweep it under the rug.

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imunfair@reddit

That would be a foolish attitude to let the war carelessly spill over to EU controlled areas even if they're invested in it. That's the whole point of a proxy war, to keep it contained and away from your own territory - I can see how they might not care about the black sea or attacks off the African coast, but the Mediterranean is something they should care about if they were smart. Too close to home.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

if they were smart

They’re still giving Ukraine billions, expecting Russia to repay it once they lose and cover reparations, even after all the corruption scandals. They couldn’t be further from “smart.”

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QuestionableEthics42@reddit

Smarter than a random redditor. They know that's not actually likely to happen.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Thats literally what the loans are to Ukraine, look it up lol

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geltance@reddit

i wonder if NATO would brush off Ukrainian drone hitting a school if it happens....

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FoggyFlowers@reddit

ukraine has already drone striked a school in belgorod. no one cared

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MDAlastor@reddit

For sure unless it's a school in Germany, France or UK

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Magjee@reddit

Any school would be terrible

But you selected countries increasingly far away, which yes, would make it less and less of an accident

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GrAdmThrwn@reddit

Obviously any school would be a horrific tragedy, but he/she isn't wrong to point out the response kinda gets a tad muted the further away from the old western core the accidents tend to happen.

Exhibit A: Iran, Exhibit B: Those Polish farmers

[-]

Magjee@reddit

No doubt

But I think Ukraine hitting a school in a NATO country would be very bad for them no matter what

And of course, there are degrees to how bad something is and the amount of attention it gets

But this is something that would be at the very least be taken seriously enough to alter its relationships with NATO, even if the leadership doesn't actually care

They would have to pretend to

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GrAdmThrwn@reddit

Good take and fair assessment.

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Magjee@reddit

<3

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Weird_Point_4262@reddit

Poland brushed off Ukrainian missiles landing and killing two, and Ukrainian authorities have refused to acknowledge it or cooperate in the investigation

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haggerton@reddit

They will just claim they were Russian drones.

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larrythecucumberer@reddit

You know that would be an exceptionally sad scenario- honestly though I think it does more damage to the reputation of AI than Ukraine.

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Magjee@reddit

The US triple tapped a girls school and the excuse was "AL Selected"

That investigation into the strikes will come out after years

Like how the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade was selected on purpose and took years for the information to come out

The excuses came out immediately

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geltance@reddit

only due to how media glosses Ukraine. If media was glossing AI as much as Ukraine, we would already be surrendering ourselves willingly to Skynet.

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larrythecucumberer@reddit

True, I don't mean to see it say it's actually less bad- killing children is always bad for every reason. But in addition to Media spin there is very much still a lot of grassroots support for Ukraine in Western countries, in a way there just isn't for AI especially right now.

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geltance@reddit

well AI is statistics... and i think this quote "One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic" is somehow useful for a wordplay but can't shape it in my head

[-]

Azzagtot@reddit

Don't worry, it would not change a thing. Remember two polish men who was killed by Ukrainian missle?

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Interesting_Injury_9@reddit

They hit an oil storage tank (thankfully empty) in Latvia last week. The sociaty understands that it may happen and is still supporting Ukraine. russia us blaming us for the drones though.

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

I'd support invading Ukraine and keeping it's citizens safe from Russian bombs

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Neurobeak@reddit

The UA Foreign Legion is no more, unfortunately. But a foreign volunteer can still officially join the assault brigades. Do you need help with translation or any other help in applying there? Please say and I will gladly help you

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Dizzy_Response1485@reddit

https://i.imgur.com/9OZlmI6.jpeg

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Neurobeak@reddit

I'm not advocating for my country or even the whole block of NATO or the EU to go to war with Russia. Nor am I'm wishing for Russia to go fight against my country or any country that is in the NATO or the EU.

In my opinion, this is not my or our war and I want it to stay it like this, unlike this guy who wants to directly participate in the war. Do you see the difference after my explanation or are you a bit slow?

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Dizzy_Response1485@reddit

this is not my or our war

List the wars that are/were your and our wars

[-]

Neurobeak@reddit

None, as my country wasn't attacked by anyone since I was born and isn't attacking anyone at the moment. And I want it to stay this way for the foreseeable future.

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Dizzy_Response1485@reddit

Well congrats on enjoying collective security.

My wish is for you and your country to one day be recipients of the kind of comments you're writing.

[-]

Neurobeak@reddit

Thanks, bro, I appreciate it. I take it you're Ukrainian? Is it correct to say you're now receiving what you were giving 12 years ago?

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Dizzy_Response1485@reddit

No, I'm not. But thanks for this comment, now I see that you're just a v🤮tnik with a peacenik mask

[-]

Sawmain@reddit

This sub has been going the tankie road for a long time now and anti west. But once you point it out you get downvoted.

[-]

Professional-Syrup-0@reddit

Why ain’t you advocating for helping the Iranians against the Americans? Why does your inaction and silence on that American war of aggression not make you a „tankie“?

And why is it that whenever a bunch of Arm chair generals and Keyboard Warriors make grand declarations about how country/block Y or X should join war Z they never seem to grasp what they are demanding?

Instead it’s a bunch of virtue signaling how “Evil has to be stopped!”, when nothing stops those people from signing up and doing what they preach to others.

Yet whenever that’s pointed out the same keyboard warriors will start throwing insults at people, even at people who meaningfully contribute to the conflict with medical aid.

[-]

Neurobeak@reddit

No problem, I'm glad to help you. Carry on the much needed fight on the armchair front

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Czart@reddit

Oh god, did they revert you to 2022 talking points? This stale shit is really been done to death.

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Neurobeak@reddit

Foreign Legion was active from 22 to 26, so no? The guy wouldn't need my help in joining the UFL then, it had English website. Now, however, they need to directly contact the assault brigades

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Czart@reddit

Not about foreign legion. About your old "hurr durr why don't you volunteer" spiel.

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Neurobeak@reddit

Ah, that. So, is there a reason for a person wishing for his country going to war, yet ignoring all the great possibilities for personally him joining the said war?

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Czart@reddit

Because it's probably not their job, but that of their professional military? It's really not that hard of a concept now is it.

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Neurobeak@reddit

Wishing someone else, but not yourself, to go and catch a drone or three with their mugs, is the definition of a remote warrior. Pretty pathethic, in my opinion. Moreover, this is when everyone with a pulse but no money are getting thrown in the busses.

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Czart@reddit

State level action is orders of magnitude different than signing up as an individual. And conflating the two is a sub-freezing IQ tactic that i believed died with the first wave of bots. I guess not.

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Neurobeak@reddit

The states haven't join the war for 5 years already (maybe the rulers of these countries are less braindead than those who want to join up), so one has a choice of doing nothing and nag in the internet or actually go and join, helping their elvish brothersin arms. The Ukrainians have plenty of weapons, what they heavily lack now are the living organisms that could sit in some ditch for months, and if need be, eat a drone with their face. For that, they hunt people on the streets.

So on the scales we have doing nothing with zero result or actually doing something. I don't get why don't people choose the later.

Also, you've already called me a bot twice. Go and climb a wall of dicks, you nimrod.

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

I'd be down to volunteer the entire bundeswehr

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Neurobeak@reddit

Start with small steps. Be the example for the bundeswehr.

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

Why should I? The British resistance to the nazis also wasn't done "in small steps"

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Silver_Middle_7240@reddit

what no, not me personally. I mean other people

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

I'd volunteer for medical service. God knows Ukrainian victims of Russian terror bombings need them

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Azzagtot@reddit

Ukraine is open for volunteers

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Chroma_primus@reddit

So is russia they even take people wuth an HIV invection and rapists and murders.

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Azzagtot@reddit

russia they even take people with an HIV invections and rapists

And this is a part where I ask for a source for this information.

murderers

Oh no, a soldiers is le... le kill pipol! That was my hardest laugh today, thank you.

[-]

bradicality@reddit

What's stopping you, playboy

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Neurobeak@reddit

The guy blocked me, and I only wanted to point his eager enthusiasm towards the good deeds. :(

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

This is their proxy, they will probably give them a stern talking to during their next shipment of weapons

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asey_69@reddit

Suggest an alternative that doesn't include conceding land and dooming the people there

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

You realize if they fight until there is no Ukrianians left the people are doomed.. right??

How about sitting down with putin and offering concessions, you know, how war has worked since it exisited.

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asey_69@reddit

Have you even seen his ridiculous demands? And let's not pretend he won't just attack again in ~5 years if there's a "peace"... Leave it to the online armchair generals to claim expertise in warfare and shit on countries defending themselves

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imunfair@reddit

Have you even seen his ridiculous demands? And let's not pretend he won't just attack again in ~5 years if there's a "peace"

Fight your government and replace them with someone sane who is able to make a deal - sacrificing land and Ukraine's military ambitions for a permanent peace, or continue fighting Russia and lose and increase the Ukrainian body count in the process.

It isn't complicated - you asking for miracle solutions that involve you winning without a cost isn't living in reality. That's why the Russians are telling you to get in the bus and put your body on the line if you really oppose Russia so much that you'd rather die than live under their government. Zelensky is intransigent and Russia isn't stopping, it's not hard to do the math on where that outcome leads.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Those demands weren't there in 2022, why did western leaders pressured Zelensky to not sign? Hmm? Almost like peace isnt the goal for the west..

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Chroma_primus@reddit

Why did russia attack ukraine if peace was their goal and not dominion ?

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Remember when NATO told Russia that they would not expand in inch eastward from Germang in the 90s..? Why is NATO constantly lying and playing games with Russia?

They kept poking the bead and got mauled.

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Chroma_primus@reddit

Nobody in nato told russia this and ukraine isn't even in nato tha's the reason putin started his premeditated invasion.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

No need to deny history my friend, you can google it yourself, very well documented.

https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/documents-show-gorbachev-was-assured-us-wouldnt-ex

ukraine isn't even in nato tha's the reason putin started his premeditated invasion.

Its more nuanced than that.

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Chroma_primus@reddit

And theinvasion of ukraine us obe of the core reasons so many eastern ezropean coutrys joined nato in the first place vecause russia doesb't respect their sovreignity and territorial integrity.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Ah so when western leaders lie to the face of Russian/Chinese leaders its just diplomacy, got it.

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Chroma_primus@reddit

No the countrys wanted to join because they feared further repressons or invasions from russia.

Despite what you write these countrys want to remain sovereign and nato is an easy way to deter russian agression and achieve further economic integration with the west.

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Azzagtot@reddit

Look up "self fulfilling proprhesy".

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Azzagtot@reddit

Have you even seen his ridiculous demands?

Get in the bus then.

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Azzagtot@reddit

You going to front.

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asey_69@reddit

Typical keyboard warrior

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

They are right though, whats NATOs plan after there is no Ukrianians left? They start taking us in vans?

First i didnt speak for the Ukrianians... then there was no one left to speak for me..

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asey_69@reddit

They're not, lol. They just saw my flair, ignored my argument and went "hurr durr hop in the bus".

The scenario you're presenting is highly implausible and manipulative. First of all, nobody reasonable expects every single Ukrainian to be wiped out (if that, by some strange miracle, did start happening, Zelensky or whoever replaces him would surrender). Second of all, NATO is not participating in the war, so this "us" you're talking about is safe even in your hypothetical.

Unless, of course, Russia declares war on NATO. But that's veering into pure speculation territory, and, if THAT happens, you've got bigger fish to fry.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

A quarter of Ukrianies ENTIRE population is gone, did you know that? Over 10 million people.

Second of all, NATO is not participating in the war, so this "us" you're talking about is safe even in your hypothetical.

The whole point of using Ukrainians as a proxy is to buy time for weapons manufacturing since they werent ready for war. NATO sends new drone prototypes every shipment for Ukrainians to test, saying NATO isnt participating is disingenuous.

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asey_69@reddit

If NATO really wasn't ready for war, why didn't Russia go straight for the Baltic States and Finland? Such a missed opportunity xD

I also don't see how your comment justifies your earlier fearmongering about Europeans being drafted, but whatever. I don't feel like engaging in baseless geopolitical speculation anymore, especially after seeing your other comment where you say that "NATO expansion forced Russia to go to war 🤬🤬" (why should russia have a say in what other independent countries do? lol)

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Why would Russia want the Baltic states or Finland? Or even EU? They are the biggest export market for their oil.

Im speaking purely from the POV of western leaders, they keep Russian front line at bay for now until their military prepares by using the Ukrainian people as a proxy.

If they cared about winning/Ukrainians they would have sent men.

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asey_69@reddit

You tell me, you're the one who said that Europeans will start getting drafted after Ukrainians

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Azzagtot@reddit

Yeah, we all see it.

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Stormeve@reddit

Yeah I dont give a fuck. Fuck Russia lmao

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

You dont give a fuck about Ukrainians? I know lol

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Stormeve@reddit

Denouncing Ukraine for doing something most other countries have done at some point in their history is silly, especially when they’re currently being invased. Everyone with a working brain knows acknowledges this.

The goal of drivel you shit out is to direct blame and guilt away from the oppressor and onto the oppressed. We know the playbook already. People don’t buy your bullshit.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

That would be fine except for the multitude of corruption scandals in Ukraine, remember when the entire country went out to protest and even putin ordered RU military to stop strikes to let them protest?

Remember?

You clearly buy bullshit, as long as it comes from NATO/EU propaganda (:

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Chroma_primus@reddit

Russia is kind of the wrong country to help free ukraine from corruption considering the stagering amout of corruption in russian society.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Im not arguing that Russia is saving them from corruption.

Im upset that my country is sending billions in "aid" to a corrupt regime that is throwing their citizens in vans to send to the front to kill slavs.

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Chroma_primus@reddit

Ukrainians are slavs themsekfs and most of the aid get's evidebtly used vy the army otherwise they would have collapsed long ago.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Exactly. Thats the point, slavs killing slavs.

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Chroma_primus@reddit

Yeah but that is something only putin can decide to stop his invasion.

Yes he get's a trial to determine his wrong doing, or do you prefer the russian methode of throwing people from high places ?

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Yeah but that is something only putin can decide to stop his invasion.

The west could have never supported Ukraine and the war would have been over.

Yes he get's a trial to determine his wrong doing, or do you prefer the russian methode of throwing people from high places ?

No trial will bring back the lives lost, or money stolen.

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Chroma_primus@reddit

So you subscribe to the victim blaming philosophie where russia can invade and kill people but ukraine fighting back increases suffering and is a tradegy for every life lost.

Abd what does the west then do when russia decids to attack the baltics or finnland should we also stand by because of the tragic loss of live and capital ?

Should macedonia be part of greece because it is far strobger econmicly and militarily ?

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Ukraine has lost over a quarter of their population, Ukraine "fighting back" will be the reason it wont exisit anymore, it will be relegated to a small area on the map that Putin will let them keep as a token.

People still cheering on Ukrianians "fighting back" fail to realize that.

Its not victim blaming, its reality.

Why would Russia attack the Baltics or Finland?

Should macedonia be part of greece because it is far strobger econmicly and militarily ?

If Greece wanted to invade Macedonia they can try. Not sure what point youre trying to make.

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

Was conscriptions also immoral for the UK during ww2?

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

We were fighting nazis in ww2, now the west is supplying them.

They have a drone unit called Luftwaffe lol they don't even try to hide it

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

Guess Russia should bomb Germany for having the Luftwaffe then. Go ahead. I'm waiting

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

The balkencruz is an illegal symbol in Germany,for good reason.

Wonder why the Ukrainians use it though...

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Silberbaum@reddit

No, its not. It changed to the now used iron cross. Do you mean the nazi version of the swastika?

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

The Germans use the Iron cross, not the balkencruz.

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Silberbaum@reddit

This was literally what i said. "No, its not." reffered to it is illegal. The Balkenkreuz is just not in use because of its use by the Wehrmacht.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Illegal may not have been the right word but youre arguing semantics. Id bet if someone using the Balkencruz in Germany they would get knocked out

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Silberbaum@reddit

Not really, i have even seen people wearing a black sun without repercussions, so i severly doubt you would get a beating for a Balkenkreuz. A nazi-swastika on the other hand will of course provoke legal and other consequences and rightfully so.

The sole exemption is, when you are a public official you could get rightfully in trouble, for political reasons but not legal reasons.

If you do not want to believe me, look up the list for forbidden extreme right symbols in germany.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

I mean, I believe you sure.

Do you believe me when I say Ukraine has a verifiable nazi problem?

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

The balken kreuz itself isnt illegal. Modern Bundeswehr uses the curved version. The straight version isn't used anymore due to the nazi affilliation but it isn't banned in of itself

And so? The nationalists are probably more motivated to fight for their country. That's why we have seen more than enough hakenkreuze on the Russian side as well

I hope you at least get payed for your propaganda work. No way someone is this dense out of their own choosing

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Next youre gonna tell me the swasitka is a symbol of Hinduism 🤣🤣

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

Are you denying that Russians have also been observed and spotted with nazi memorabilia?

Also why are all the German nazis supportive of Russia and not Ukraine if Ukraine is so full of nazis?

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ShamScience@reddit

Yes. War bad.

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TheOnlyFallenCookie@reddit

So Britain should have rolled over and let the nazis conquer them? Stupid ass reasoning

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somethingbrite@reddit

When you are attacked and defend yourself from that attack you are not defending yourself on behalf of a 3rs party. Your need to defend yourself has been thrust upon you by your attacker. You are not and can not be by any definition a proxy.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Except when Putin was negotiating in 2014 and offering a WAY better deal than today, what did the western leaders do? Tell them to accept or to keep fighting till more shipments arrive?

Thats why Putin hasnt sat down with EU leaders and doesnt trust them.

People with a brain see what is going on, even Ukrainian politicians have begun to speak on it.

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sight_ful@reddit

You are from ukraine and you are asking this question? Interesting.

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imunfair@reddit

You are from ukraine and you are asking this question?

He's just being salty because the west refuses to put boots on the ground to rescue Ukraine and send tens or hundreds of thousands of our own men home in bodybags for a country that isn't even in a defense alliance with us.

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kinmix@reddit

were asked to shot down russian drones in NATO airspace they said it will mean war with russians

Lay off of whatever you are smoking.

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skunimatrix@reddit

Ukraine has done more to warrant an Article 5 than Russia.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Ukraine didnt initiate any wars on NATOs border so actually, no.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Did the TCC scoop your nazi gramps yet? Hope he isnt under 65..

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TrizzyG@reddit

Well, no, because he lives in the real world and you live in your delusions.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

https://busification.org/en

Guess all these people are delusional

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TrizzyG@reddit

It's like you discovered the concept of mobilization for the first time in your life or something lol

Not unexpected since you're obviously 16 at most.

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_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit

You are not allowed to call another one delusional if you thing what is happening in Ukraine regarding the TCC is just mobilization.

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TrizzyG@reddit

It's very simply mobilization. This is what it looks like when a far smaller country is mobilizing against a much larger country in a war.

Count yourself lucky if your nation happens to be protected under the umbrella of a larger alliance to avoid such situations.

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CluelessExxpat@reddit

Their nation is probably smart enough to not make dumb decisions to cause a war.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Existing within a country's revanchist claims isnt a dumb cause but you knew that.

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CluelessExxpat@reddit

It is to antagonize them while knowing the consequences.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Yeah the abusive spouse angle is a boring one dude get new content.

Ukraine isnt beholden to Russia and their alignment with the west is simple a failure on Russias end.

Most countries take their geopolitical L's with more grace. Russia decided to launch an incompetent and short-sighted invasion. That's fully on them.

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CluelessExxpat@reddit

Why are you talking about other countries here? Russia made it very clear what it would do and it did it. Ukraine and their supporters should stop crying for the consequences of their actions. This is real world, not fairy tales.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Just because Russia made threats does not make those threats any less or more reasonable or credible. Youre just repeating abuser rhetoric.

Also, consequences are a two-way street. Russia is suffering a lot of consequences for their choice as well, however the choice to invade was squarely Russia's, which is why normal people who aren't hopped up on insane propaganda just leave the blame squarely in Russias hands. Its not even controversial — I doubt Russia even cares since they deem the cost to be worth it, but pretending its some sort of natural consequence of Ukraine's geopolitics is very low IQ thinking.

It's as if I threatened you if you didnt give me two of your rooms in your house for my use and then I stabbed you when you refuse. Thats not you suffering the consequences of your actions, that's me committing a crime against you.

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CluelessExxpat@reddit

For someone that seems to know about geopolitics, I am not certain why you are talking about reasonability here.

US invaded Libya, been sanctioning Cuba for decades, pretty much removed Iraq from the map and many other things.

Geopolitics is geopolitics. It is not reasonable, it is not rational. Its a wicked reality of our world. A country either makes strategic decisions based on these realities or make dumb decisions like Ukraine and suffer the consequences.

One may argue it was not a dumb decision; then they or Ukraine don't get to cry about the consequences. I would understand Ukraine if it was in Iraq's position where US just pulled out a random reason out of their back to invade the country, but no, it knew what it was doing and the very possible consequences. They made their bed and now are lying in it.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Lol, I mean you're not even going to have any attempts at impartiality I see which is expected I guess.

A country either makes strategic decisions based on these realities or make dumb decisions like Russia and suffer the consequences.

Works like this too.

Only difference is that nobody forced Russia to make its decision to invade. That was squarely on Russia. Ukraine didnt choose to get invaded and thinking on those terms is just plain stupidity and you have to relearn causality from elementary school or something.

Get out of 2022 little bro and get with the times

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CluelessExxpat@reddit

Yes, it works like that too.

But the dumb decision Russia made was not the invasion of Ukraine, it was letting NATO train and arm Ukraine between 2014-2022 during the so called "Minsk" agreements.

Now a NATO-backed Ukraine is giving a solid fight against Russia, which it wouldn't be able to do so back in 2014.

If Putin had the brain size of an apple instead of a peanut, Russia wouldn't be here. But it seems "miscalculation" is the new phenomenon.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Okay I'm glad weve reframed this purely from the perspective of imperialist Russian ambitions which is all that this is in reality.

From that angle though, even then you're kind of wrong. Ukraine in 2014 was less refined but so was Russia, and on top of that Russia was much more tightly integrated with Western markets. Your perspective is an oversimplification and your resentment is appreciated 🥰.

Good thing you got past the absolutely moronic framing of Ukraine doing anything to cause an invasion beyond simply not capitulation to Russian demands.

[-]

CluelessExxpat@reddit

All countries that think they are strong enough have imperialist ambitions. Russia is no different.

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_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit

Historically, what Ukraine is employing is called impressment. It's haven't been used by any nation on earth since Napoleonic wars. Not even WW2 made use of press gangs like the TCC. We can forgive you, uneducated people aren't usually fan of history. However, I know that you know that. You are just delusional.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Forced military service happens even in peacetime nations. Even just in this conflict alone Russian reservists were forced from their homes during the 2022 mobilization wave and the LDPR authorities cleared out entire villages when the war started.

In any case showing up with multiple military personnel is exactly the same form of conscription that occurs when you miss your summons.

Its not similar to impressment because impressment is just random seizure and kidnapping of men from the streets. Current mobilization in this form is for men who miss/avoid their summons. You've just been duped into thinking these are randomly targeted individuals, but you're simple minded so its forgivable.

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_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit

Again, TCC and what is happening in Ukraine is not "just" conscription nor mobilization.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Well for that you'd have to show us evidence of impressment in Ukraine so seeing as thats not happening its a pointless question to begin with.

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GrAdmThrwn@reddit

I'm just chiming in here but do you even know any Ukrainian nationals of military age abroad? There is a reason they are jumping through hoops to try and sort their shit out without stepping foot across their own border, including trying to remotely organize funerals for elderly relatives rather than attend to their affairs in person.

Also the link to that bussification site is more evidence than we've seen to the contrary regarding Russia, which is all he said/she said at this stage.

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TrizzyG@reddit

I'm just chiming in here but do you even know any Ukrainian nationals of military age abroad

Quite a few, both those that have been here before '22 and some from after the invasion. There's a been a big community here for a long time.

Also the link to that bussification site is more evidence than we've seen to the contrary regarding Russia, which is all he said/she said at this stage.

That link shows zero evidence of impressment. Hes trying to make it sound like Ukraine is some special case where people are being snatched up randomly. Thats not the case — TCC goes after men who ignore and avoid their summons, which happens in literally every country where someone ignores their reporting duties.

If people were just randomly being detained and stolen nobody would be out in the streets. I know people who have gone to Ukraine as tourists since '22.

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GrAdmThrwn@reddit

Well most of the ones I know are a firm mix of absolute nationalists (although reasonable enough to leave the nonsense at the door when its time to eat and drink) and completely disillusioned former citizens (ironically, most of these being post 2022 immigrants).

The only area where they can agree vis a vis Ukraine, besides the obvious (i.e. fuck Russia) is that going back is a death sentence because none of them have the connections needed to avoid getting packed up to the front.

And come on, you think the TCC are actually following due process? The TCC goes after anyone and everyone to meet their quota on the assumption they have dodged the draft. If there is a mistake, its not like the average person has the resources to refute that, argue with it or contest it. If you don't have a rich relative or well connected uncle, then you are shit out of luck because you are off to the front before you have time or space to actually prove them wrong.

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TrizzyG@reddit

The TCC goes after anyone and everyone to meet their quota on the assumption they have dodged the draft. If there is a mistake, its not like the average person has the resources to refute that, argue with it or contest it

This is just your pointless speculation. As someone who knows two individuals in the TCC (veterans from the front), your interpretation of their function is just plain idiocy.

Nobody is going to sit here and claim that an organization on the scale of the Ukrainian military isn't going to have abuses of power or corruption at various levels but thats like pointing to a handful of cops that got busted for dealing with organized crime in my city and claiming the entire, or most of the police force are criminals and in collusion with gangs.

Anyway, you're not really going to impress anyone by pointing to individual cases of abuse in a 4+ year long war. Since you have no evidence of systemic abuse, it's honestly not interesting. You can find abuse in any system, peacetime or wartime.

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GrAdmThrwn@reddit

There are ~40,000 people in the TCC. Your two contacts as a sample size are about as insignificant as mine in the grand scheme of things.

Just because those two might be good apples, the bad ones are certainly spoiling the bunch if the actions of the TCC as a whole are getting enough publicity and bad press to be deterring otherwise patriotic Ukrainians from returning home.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Okay so when you provide evidence of systemic abuse rather than a few bad apples let me know, thanks.

Also, TCC activity isnt a factor for someone not returning home. Its the fact that the country is in a state of war and in a lot of cases home is destroyed/occupied. Also, the logic is ridiculous. If TCC were the friendliest and happiest bunch of fellas to deal with I still wouldn't go back because it doesnt change the fact that Id be eligible for mobilization.

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_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit

https://busification.org/?lang=en

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Terrifying I care more about your people than you.

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TrizzyG@reddit

You are just here to cheerlead lol you dont care about anything.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

Yup me posting about Ukrainians being kidnapped for NATO is cheerleading, nice mental gymnastics

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TrizzyG@reddit

Well you just made up a bunch of crap so yeah this is definitely cheerleading. I guarantee a quick AI scan of your account will turn up volumes of you blowing Russia while sitting in the comfort of your home somewhere entirely elsewhere.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

How have i made up a bunch of crap? The website has thousands of recorded cases, from multiple angles.

Did ukraine not increase conscription age to 65?

Is Zelensky not touring germany/poland with the respective leaders telling all military age males to return?

Russia while sitting in the comfort of your home somewhere entirely elsewhere.

Says the Ukie on reddit sitting toronto while his countrymen pay the ultimate price for literally nothing.

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TrizzyG@reddit

How have i made up a bunch of crap? The website has thousands of recorded cases, from multiple angles.

Well calling it being kidnapped for NATO is one such thing. Then crying about Nazis is another.

NATO isnt even in a participant in this conflict so obviously youre misinformed at best.

Says the Ukie on reddit sitting toronto while his countrymen pay the ultimate price for literally nothing.

They are dying in a war to defend their country. Better than signing up to get FPVd in a foreign country in the case of Russian recruits. Could all have been avoided if Russia didnt invade but here we are.

In any case I'm not the one cheerleading.

Also, put your profile through a script and actual LMFAO the extent to which you get on your knees for Putin and Russia would be cringe to even normal Z-boys. I thought you were just generally a moron but that was mint dude. Explains it all. You even got all the talking points on Ukraine word for word.

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PurpleMclaren@reddit

NATO only hasnt sent men, theyve sent all the equipment they can afford to lose.

Youre being disingenuous, without NATO support this war would have been over.

If NATO isnt involved why do they keep sending drone prototypes for Ukrainians to use and test...?

They are dying in a war to defend their country. Better than signing up to get FPVd in a foreign country in the case of Russian recruits. Could all have been avoided if Russia didnt invade but here we are.

Defend their country? So they are going to push the russian invaders out right? What fantasy do you live in?

There is only one way this ends, the west knows it too they are only doing this to buy time. Ukrianians are useful idiots to them, nothing more.

Hurr durr ruzzian bot Kremlin propagandist etc etc

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TrizzyG@reddit

Youre being disingenuous, without NATO support this war would have been over

NATO providing support ≠ Ukrainians fighting for NATO

Obviously basic concepts like that are impossible for you to grasp, but this isnt surprising.

Defend their country? So they are going to push the russian invaders out right? What fantasy do you live in?

What does defending your country have to do with predictions on the outcome? Win or lose, if you're defending your country you're not suddenly doing something different whether you're retreating or advancing.

What a pointless attempt to try to jam in your worthless predictions about the conflict lol.

Hurr durr ruzzian bot Kremlin propagandist etc etc

Nah even they're not as cringe and delusional. You're more like a childish fanboy. It's kinda pathetic since you wouldnt have the balls to actually move there but you cheer on geopolitical enemies like some hopeless fifth columnist. No different to the clowns who cheered on the Nazis in America in WW2.

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skunimatrix@reddit

Russia didn't blow up Nord Stream.

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TrizzyG@reddit

You know this how? They're still the most likely perpetrators.

If you believe some dinky Ukrainian yacht with superhuman divers managed it you've lost the plot long ago.

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skunimatrix@reddit

The Germans seem to have enough evidence to file charges and demand the extradition of Ukrainians for the attack.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Yet nobody has been convicted and recreating the scenario proved to be impossible.

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geltance@reddit

"Article 5 is the cornerstone of NATO's founding treaty, establishing the principle of collective defense. It states that an armed attack against one or more member states in Europe or North America is considered an attack against them all"

Ukraine has made an armed attack (note that there is no such thign as 'intentional armed attack') on both Poland and Baltic states, with actual casualties. Russia meanwhile has done less to trigger article 5. Factually you are wrong

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TrizzyG@reddit

Okay dude you're totally right you actually found the loophole and NATO is planning to trigger Article 5 as we speak.

Or maybe you're a moron and it's obvious all instances are in relation to Russias invasion and nobody with a brain is going to treat misfired and misguided munitions firing against Russian assets as an attack on NATO.

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geltance@reddit

misguided and misfired munitions are treated as a threat to NATO all the time when it's not Ukraine. The moment your rules become "rules for the but not for me" they become more and more useless.

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skunimatrix@reddit

Further more the attack on the Nord Stream Pipleline was a deliberate act by Ukraine. Germany has filed charges against the Ukrainians who undertook the action.

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TrizzyG@reddit

Okay, I see that you're an incredibly fragile individual so Ill explain this carefully.

NATO isnt a requirement for something to be considered friendly fire. Ukraine obviously is a friendly nation militarily to NATO through their cooperation.

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TrizzyG@reddit

are treated as a threat to NATO all the time when it's not Ukraine

If they come from a hostile state that would make sense.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO so it's not the same as friendly fire

Being in NATO is not a requirement for something to be considered friendly fire. Ukraine is very obviously associated with and intertwined with European defense partners.

Your a*tism isn't a valid reason for considering otherwise.

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kolitics@reddit

NATO hates this one weird trick

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Neurobeak@reddit

They've blown up a German pipeline, sent an UAV that exploded in Zagreb, sent a missile that killed two Polish farmers and blown up a oil storage in Latvia. That's four NATO members that suffered from the direct actions of the fighters of light. Not counting Estonia, Finland and Lithuania that had uavs with explosives crashing on their territory but without direct damages.

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