What if "Grand Tour" had been the Trio's final Seasons of Top Gear?
Posted by WySLatestWit@reddit | thegrandtour | View on Reddit | 35 comments
Over the years one of the things I've seen a lot of criticisms of the grand tour, some I've agreed with some I didn't, and a lot of it comparing Grand tour to Top Gear which of course fans often perceived to be "much better." With that in mind, after watching interviews with Andy Wilman, and reading his book, I really got the impression that they were close to winding things down on Top Gear anyway. It sounds like Grand Tour actually extended their life as television motoring presenters for another several years beyond what they might have done had they stayed at the BBC. That really got me thinking, what if Grand Tour had instead just been how they concluded Top Gear?
Obviously little things would have changed. they would probably have kept celebrity interviews and obviously The Stig instead of The American. Those two things alone represent some of the most frequent criticisms of the first series on Amazon. But beyond that, imagining that everything stays largely the same in spite of those changes, how would it have been received as the end of Top Gear?
I feel like the "Funeral for a Friend" which served as the final in-studio episode of Grand Tour would have been a much more major happening had that been the end of "traditional" Top Gear.
Downtown_Link_8651@reddit
I think they do the same on top gear and sign on for 2-3 more series and reture at the end of it. The consensus remains, as it already was before the fracas, that the show is way past it's prime, if anything I think people would be harsher on it than they were on TGT where whenever it was even halfway good everyone just seemed happy we still had the trio on screen.
I think the final studio show is a much bigger deal on the BBC, I don't think they would do as many specials after that, maybe only one, but I think we still get more or less the same idea for the very last special as a send off.
The big question for me is how do they handle the introduction of new presenters in this timeline. There wouldn't be the same gap and reset before bringing in a new team as has happened with TGT I don't think as the BBC would want a team lined up ready to take over pretty quickly. I think the trio would be keen to pass the torch on screen in a different way to TGT with top gear being a legacy they themselves inherited. Possible they'd do an episode old vs new with the incoming crew before getting their own swan song with the final special.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
I think they probably only get about 2 more standard studio show seasons on BBC based on everything I've read and heard in interviews. Wilman is really adamant that the third season of studio shows was incredibly hard, and they weren't even sure they could do it. I could see them ending the studio show but continuing Top Gear on in the "special films" format for perhaps even longer than Grand Tour did.
I don't think the BBC would ever have gone along with Clarkson's idea for Clarkson's Farm and I honestly think without that, and without the pressures and difficulties of a studio show, the trio would have continued on with making specials until possibly 2025. It really feels to me that more than any of them Clarkson was the one who decided it was time to shut things down with Grand Tour.
Downtown_Link_8651@reddit
I think the opposite about clarksons farm, the promise to do a solo show for each of the presenters was a big carrot that got them to do the run of specials not something that came along that stopped Clarksson wanting to continue.
The only factor that may have meant we got as many specials for a final top gear run would be the fact that they probably would have ended the studio stuff at the end of the likely 2 or 3 year contract that they were negotiating at the time of the fracas. They wouldn't have had the haitus and would have finished up the studio shows in 2017/18 with maybe the BBC managing to get them to do specials because they're all a couple of years younger when the studio show ends and they get them all filmed before covid slowed things down. But I don't see them continuing the specials only format as long without the Amazon blank cheque and with the BBC likely wanting to protect the Top Gear franchise from going down with the trio. Maybe a year or two of likely cheaper specials than we got while a new team is formed and starts filming for the relaunch in the meantime.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
My point isn't that Clarkson's farm stopped Clarkson wanting to continue, more that Clarkson's Farm gave him something new to focus his creative energies on. I don't think that the BBC would have given Clarkson - or the other two - the "you can each have your own solo project" deal. As such I think it's more likely that "what if we allowed you to do two or three Top Gear film specials a year?" offer would have been made, and I can see Clarkson accepting that.
Downtown_Link_8651@reddit
But my point is that offer to make a solo show was a big reason why they took the deal to make as many specials as they did, Wilman has said as much in several interviews. Clarksons farm being a success had no impact on when TGT ended, they had signed the deal for the last set of specials before it started since its existence in the first place was part of that deal.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
My argument is that in this alternate timeline they may have seen the BBC as their only option, and therefore continuing on doing specials may be the only realistic option for a creative output.
Downtown_Link_8651@reddit
I'm telling you your argument doesn't make any sense though. Clarkson and co were done, they wanted to end it on their own terms and Wilman has said they were going to end it on the last studio show but the main reason they did the additional 4 specials was the offer of the extra shows on the condition they did more specials
They were ready to stop without other creative outlets lined up it was the creative outlet that they did end up with that kept them going as long as they did. The BBC not giving them that kind of offer means they are way less likely to be tempted to do as many specials not more likely.
PoorMayMay@reddit
I mean, wasn’t one of the reasons they gave for finishing that they had done everything you can with a car?
I imagine that similar thinking was happening near the end of TG, but then they got presented with a bigger budget and presumably much bigger pay checks
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
Wilman specifically talks about having done everything they could with the studio format show. Amazon wanted to sign them for two more full 12 episode seasons after season 3 because the show was a massive, massive success for Prime, but they knew they couldn't do it anymore. They were afraid of running out of ideas. That's why the compromise of strictly doing special films was struck, along with all 3 of the hosts getting their own solo shows. Amazon practically begged them to return.
Capable_Affect3655@reddit
I agree, I think Top Gear was winding down. I think the programme could only do so much with the budget the BBC would give them and they needed to do things on a bigger scale. Plus I think the political correctness of the BBC was getting too much of a minefield for Clarkson
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
yeah, the BBC became insanely constricting on what they would permit, and incredibly exhausting with their willingness to capitulate to a very loud but extreme minority of complainers. Had it not been the punch that gave them a reason to sever ties with Clarkson it likely would have been something else.
fudgeller83@reddit
There's a non-zero chance that The Punch changed absolutely nothing beyond us missing three news segments, three stars in a reasonably priced car, a couple of car reviews and maybe one other feature.
They weren't signed to anything beyond series 22 and relations between Wilman and Clarkson and the BBC were strained. If the part ways at the end of the series, the same discussions with Netflix, Amazon etc will all take place anyway.
If they do stick with the BBC they probably work through another 4-6 series and call it a day. It'd be slightly lower budget than Amazon and they probably don't go into the Specials era afterwards. Also 4-6 series would probably be less as they'll be 6-8 episodes each rather than the 12-14 we got on Amazon
Ok-Reputation-233@reddit
Danny Cohen was looking for a reason to can Clarkson - Wilman says at much in his book.
fudgeller83@reddit
Yep - I think there was so much to that relationship that gets lost. As the heads of the BBC changed, they went from being lenient with the show to overly strict.
There were multiple instances where the BBC probably should have censured Clarkson and Top Gear earlier on, but instead stood by them.
Then suddenly, he was on his 'third strike' with the two previously coming from the 'slope' comment which about 3 people in the entire world knew and took offence to, and a barely (if at all) audible usage of the n-word that wasn't even aired years earlier.
That being said, the punching of a producer should probably end the contract of literally anyone at the BBC, even if I doubt their ability or desire to do that at times, given what else they've historically let slide/covered up
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
When you listen to Wilman's interviews in specific it really does feel like they were probably going to be done with Top Gear when it came time for Jeremy's contract negotiation with or without the punch. Wilman is pretty honest that he thought that they'd overstayed at Top Gear anyway, and they probably should have ended it with 3 or 4 years earlier.
lostpasts@reddit
It wouldn't have happened.
They were reaching the end of their motivation on Top Gear. Amazon revitilised them by increasing the budget, increasing their pay, and reducing their workload.
The BBC could never have afforded to do the same.
FourCats44@reddit
I think we would still have handed over to new guests eventually but hopefully ones that would have been chosen by Jeremy/Richard/James.
There was an interview on High Performance with Willman which I found interesting but one of the big things was how controlled it was and they kept the BBC away as much as possible. If they kept that up things would have continued onwards alternating between cheap car, supercar roadtrips and specials but probably not gone full specials how the grand tour did.
Budget would have been a bigger issue, they never would have had the amount that Amazon footed. By the time they got to the Madagascar special the car budget was a lot higher than the Bolivia or India special for example.
Also no Hammond workshop/Clarkson Farm/James May show - the three individual showers were part of Amazon trying to keep the grand tour going.
Ultimately though as they mentioned in the final special and the weird car specials - they were running out of places that (a) they were safe to go to, (b) were allowed to go to and (c) would make good television. This always would have been a killer regardless of Top gear or grand tour.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
I always wonder if the BBC even could have realistically given anywhere close the budget that Grand Tour got if they'd wanted to. I don't think so.
chadder_b@reddit
IIRC the very first episode of Grand Tour had the same budget as their last series of Top Gear. So I highly doubt it.
Now, I don’t remember the numbers exactly, but the budget from Amazon was significantly higher than
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
Apparently the opening sequence of that very first show is the single most expensive single thing they ever did for the show. That segment alone apparently had a nearly 3 million dollar budget.
FourCats44@reddit
Financially yes, politically no.
The BBC wanted to push Top Gear from BBC2 to BBC1 but they refused - they'd rather be the biggest fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big lake.
Other shows like Strictly, Doctor Who, etc... will have had much larger budgets than top gear, so the question is would the BBC ever have allowed it to join that echelon of programmes.
Given the lack of control the BBC had over top gear, as well as the number of incidents (Mexicans, Burma special, India Special, Patagonia, etc...) they probably wouldn't have risked it imo. You don't exactly see Doctor Who or Strictly being summoned by foreign embassies. Also look at Lineker on MotD, he "stepped down" over criticism of the immigration situation. Would the BBC have trusted Clarkson/Hammond/May not to get into similar trouble?
SotonSaint@reddit
Trajectory I think would’ve been similar but I think they ultimately retire earlier. They probably do a couple more series of traditional tv and then moving to exclusively specials. I think those are probably better than what they do for Amazon but bbc probably cuts them loose by 2020 and they call it a day after that.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
Wilman has said that they shut the studio show down after season when their first contracts were finished largely because they just were burnt out on the format, and they were struggling really hard for ideas. I can absolutely see the show having ended after 2 more seasons instead of 3 on BBC, and then the same series of larger films to close out the whole thing.
SotonSaint@reddit
Yeah I think it was the right time to end the studio show. The original top gear was widely regarded as slightly past its prime by the end of the bbc run anyway.
It’s just a shame we didn’t get those last specials made by the bbc because I don’t think Amazon ever captured the same magic.
Constant-Map7687@reddit
I wonder though is that being wise after the event. I bet Top Gear would have gone on longer with Clarkson, May and Hammond if Clarkson didn't hit that producer .
Sausage_Roll__@reddit
Wait there’s specials that weren’t aired??
TJ_Blues18@reddit
Wasn't one filmed in Russia?
w--13@reddit
They planned to film one in Russia, but then the war started so it ended up becoming the Scandì Flick.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
Oh wow, I did not know that. Jeremy talked a lot in interviews and things about how they really couldn't more than half the stuff they did on the Grand Tour and Top Gear anymore. The Middle East Special where they rode through Iraq, Turkey, Syria, Israel, and the West Bank. it'd be literal madness to try and pull that off today. Knowing that they had a Russian special planned that they had to scrap really drives home how rapidly things were changing even while they were still doing the show.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
I think they're trying to say it's a shame the specials that were made were made by Amazon and not BBC, which I can't agree with.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
In Amazon's defense a think part of the differences with the show on Amazon versus the BBC are directly tied to legal restrictions they needed to make the show legally distinct from Top Gear.
I actually think the specials and long form films on Grand Tour are the best of the GT show, and some of the rival the best of Top Gear for me. The studio segments frequently felt really constricted and stale by comparison.
What's interesting is that I think Amazon has given Clarkson an entire second career post Grand Tour that I don't think the BBC ever would have been capable of giving him. I really don't think Clarkson's Farm would have worked at all on the BBC.
iamabigtree@reddit
There was a lot of talk around 2014-2015 during the fracas that they were going to wind things up soon as there was a general view that it had become somewhat stale.
There was a rumour just a few weeks before that the trio were going to sign a new 3 year deal but with the intention of it being the last.
So it's possible it could have ended in a somewhat similar way to TGT studio shows.
If they would have then changed the presenters or gone on to do specials like TGT is not knowable.
WySLatestWit@reddit (OP)
I had forgotten the sell of the format entirely, that's a really good point.
Bot_Fly_Bot@reddit
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HalfDecentFarmer69@reddit
This is a perfectly fine post you’re just an idiot