Another Bad eBike Behavior Post, What's the Real Solution
Posted by moreplateslessdates9@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 144 comments
So I hate to be an old man and be like oh gripe these kids, and I tend to lean more libertarian minded in terms of less regulations and rules, particularly if they're not going to be enforced so it's against my nature to be like regulate these things. But I had an experience this weekend and it highlighted what a problem SOME kids on eMotorcycles are doing, I would like to acknolwedge ebikes and straight up electric dirt bikes are two different things.
Anyhow, I'm out running errands, I see a group of 3-4 kids on emotorcycle style bikes. They're swirving into oncoming traffic, popping wheelies, going from sidewalk and curb to crossing the entire street, back onto sidewalks, cutting through parking lots, swirving and playing games in the street. I should also add this wasn't a neighbrohood street these were major roads. They wound up being on the same route as me for probably a good couple of miles so this wasn't like one wheelie it, this was how they ride pretty much eveywhere. At times they were coming up to lights behind cars like normal traffic one nearly crashed into my back as they approached the light and my car too quickly while swirving and playing games.
Problem even if someone calls the cops on these kids cops even if they would come out the kids aren't gonna be there when they get there, there's no plates so there's no later accountability, all these kids wear masks or helmets and gear, I guess that's a plus so no identifying them. Your also asking cops to know the difference between these bikes or be able to pickup speeds on these very small objects. They look fun, I'd be doing the same thing at that age all be it maybe not quite as recklessly. I had a mini bike as a kid but we basically just zipped up and down our neighborhood street they weren't really practical for going out onto main roads so that problem kind of took care of itself.
I guess waht I'm getting at is I think were going to see more outright bans on anything that looks like a motorcycle, its gonna be like the "assault weapon" bans, its not going to be about the functionality but with assualt weapons the test is basically does it look mean or aggressive, if you don't have some beach cruiser looking ebike I think they may ban them. That's my rant.
not_productive1@reddit
I think the answer could be:
Riders need to be 16+, helmet mandatory for anything with a motor that goes over 10 mph.
Registration for anything you want to ride on public streets (not like auto registration but more like dog registration, just an admin deal that puts a tag number on the bike to allow for reporting). Simple, cheap, no inspections or anything. Just a tag, so people can call you in if you're causing a problem.
Class 3 (20 mph with throttle, 28 with pedal assist) max. Crack down on manufacturers who sell easily unlocked illegal bikes.
Will there still be kids ripping around on illegal bikes? Sure. But I guarantee you that for almost every one of these random anonymous death-wishers, there's a nosy neighbor who knows exactly where that bike gets parked at night and is sick of their shit.
This isn't a perfect solution. People will still have illegal bikes. People will still give stupidly powerful machines to their kids. But it at least makes a dent while protecting the things responsible commuters use.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Think of the children! We've gotta prevent efficient and safer alternatives to excessively heavy suvs and cars in order to protect everyone from the choices of a few! Regardless of how that leaves everyone with inherently less safe choices.
You must be a federal plant.
not_productive1@reddit
Lmao yes, I'm a federal plant because federal law definitely governs these bikes. Definitely not just a normal person who doesn't want to watch these bikes get regulated out of existence at the city and state level because people hand their 13 year olds $5,000 e-motos with no thought to their safety.
Kids are dying on these fucking bikes. If we don't interact reasonably and not hysterically with the people who regulate such things, we are going to wind up with blanket bans.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Because it's an al gore esque "individual responsibility" response exhibiting classic neoliberal conditioning regarding the causal roots of problems. Roots are the etymological source of the word radical for this reason.
People are dying from plastic waste being burned into the air. Do you think we should ban all plastic use as a result? Or maybe not create disposable plastics or use plastics to create designed to fail products.
Just go around telling people it's their choices and behavior which influence the legislation and not the legislation which shapes the permissible behavior like a... Not federal plant. Cause the people who regulate these things can get "spooked" very easily? You're making jokes about this bruh. Lame af.
not_productive1@reddit
Dude. I'm in a forum for ebike riders encouraging people to advocate for themselves. Save your poli-sci 101 shit for someone who's going to be impressed by it - I've paid for too much school for that to be me.
I'm not talking about the larger sociopolitical ethics of e-bikes. I'm talking about concrete regulation on the ground that prevents laws that are going to damage people in the real world. But that's fine. You can disagree and we can call it a day. Have a good one.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Way to not respond to me and make up some story.
not_productive1@reddit
The fact that you want to have a conversation about something that I wasn't talking about in the first place does not obligate me to participate, dude. Have a great night and I really do hope you get what you want out of this.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Why help kids learn to responsibly apply the ability to go over 10mph when you can protect them with legislation. You'll really solve the problem.
Daltron214@reddit
The test for "assault weapons" isn't if they look mean or aggressive lmfao. You do sound like a grandpa, typical boomer "regulate these kids but I'm a libertarian so don't tax me"
trevor_plantaginous@reddit
OP is right - whether you are pro or anti gun the state and federal laws are all over the map and riddled with inconsistencies and we're heading that way on ebikes.. For instance - California has "feature based" assault weapon bans. Same assault rifle may be legal/illegal depending on how it looks. Machine guns are legal if they were manufactured before 1986 but there's little to no oversight as to what constitutes "manufactured" - 99% of the weapon may be new parts. In almost every state simply adding a stock to a pistol may make it illegal, but simply adding a stock AND a vertical grip makes it legal again as a rifle.
Daltron214@reddit
Functionality≠looks bud
trevor_plantaginous@reddit
A mini 14 with a wood stock is legal almost everywhere an AR style with polymer furniture is illegal. Functionality is almost identical. Only difference is one looks more scary from a modern perspective.
Daltron214@reddit
Functionality almost the same, with the "ar" style being modular and removable, usually folding, while the wood stock is manufactured that way, unable to change in functionality. I appreciate you directly making my point there with the inclusion of the word "almost".
Electrical_Tof@reddit
You're not coherently viewing the world if you don't appreciate that having a tacticool folding stock is a significant functionality difference. Especially when the primary function is firing bullets. Thereby creating legislation which doesn't actually protect and only creates a sense of safety much like airline theatricality.
It's like saying a bike will be more safe if it doesn't have the option to mount pannier bags or adjust the seat when those are actually, like having adjustable stocks on guns, helpful for safety as having people fire innacurately like when hunting can be dangerous.
A bike might be more safe if it isn't ridden as fast on the path but when using the road for a stint to get between paths not being able to keep up is unsafe. Your world view is obscene.
Daltron214@reddit
I don't remember ever seeing a hunter with an AR with a tacticool folding stock but yeah buddy whatever you say, you sound like you're schizophrenic sitting here arguing against yourself in the same comment though.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Way to not engage with the point which was made about how an ergonomic mismatch could in legally permitted situations where people are shooting result in unplanned harm. Very strange behavior. You couldn't even remember what was said to you in order to respond to it.
Daltron214@reddit
I just don't engage with schizophrenic people bud.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Yet here you are, not looking sane because you refuse to engage in the actual conversation you are having?
Which you claim to not be having.
But yeah surely your policy views are coherent.
BTW I'm regards to your point someone who's going out to commit heinous mass murder isn't concerned about Mike ergonomic mismatch vs ammo capacity and such but a hunter who's going to have a lot more instances of going out to fire their gun might end up with extra risk because of it.
Daltron214@reddit
Buddy I'm not reading your schizophrenic ramblings
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
You clearly know nothing about guns, the term assault rifle doesnt refer to a magazine size or a rate of fire it talks about the ways it looks ie does it have a certain type of handle, is the barrel threaded, etc. If you look at Illinois and other states you have one gun that's illegal and one that's legal which are the same minus looks
Dexter_McThorpan@reddit
If a minor is on an Emoto and causing problems or doing illegal shit, the parents should also get a ticket.
The only way these kids are going to stop is if the parents face consequences.
TradeSekrat@reddit
It needs to be escalating fines. I hate to say that being fines don't impact everyone on an equal level. Yet something like $250 first but $1000+ second is going to wake up parents to the illegal nature of e-motos on public streets. Then parents will talk to other parents and a chunk of the problem goes away
I also assume we will see some sort of universal max speed regulations too for normal e-bikes. Something easier to enforce than just motor wattage. Along with a regulatory body and some sort of class based sticker etc requirement. So cops can just scan a bike to see if it's "legal".
Meaning home brew bikes etc will odds are get banned too. I'm not saying this is fair and it's clearly not the best out come. Yet look at the history of gov crack downs on tech. It always fallows the same pattern. Limit, ban and an oversight group.
Strange-Style-7808@reddit
I wish we would adopt the model used in some European countries where fines are scaled based on income.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
The law is used to penalize poverty lol
Strange-Style-7808@reddit
It would actually penalize poor people less.
They usually set the fine as severity of the offense x daily income (including things like investment income) of the person, minus a minimum cost of living adjustment based on the poverty rate. For ebikes it would likely be 1/10 x daily income - cost of living adjustment. For a wealthy person it could be 10,000. For a poor person it could be $10.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
I said "is used to" because at least in the US the whole point is to penalize poverty to maintain class barriers. Sorry for the confusion
Resplendent_Komorebi@reddit
I've taken the approach of minding my own business. I used to get mad about it but it's wasted energy. If you look in the comment section for just about every post someone makes on this topic on our town's Facebook group (or even a few of the comments on THIS post), half of the responses are from people who seem to believe kids illegally riding overpowered bikes on public roads and greenways in ways that are inherently dangerous boils down to "let kids be kids." If you complain about it, you're a Karen. If you find yourself in a near-miss collision with one, it's your problem even if they were weaving in and out of traffic in parking lots or running red lights.
Ride safely, responsibly, and respectfully and nobody will bother you about riding your eBike on shared paths. Let the parents worry about their own kids because you'll drive yourself bonkers trying to do it for them.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
One town near me has a $100 bounty for turning them in though not sure how that works in practice
Electrical_Tof@reddit
That's definitely a request from Big oil. Making people fight each other instead of address the root cause of the problems which arise. Oppressive infrastructure results in rebellious transportation. Duh.
Resplendent_Komorebi@reddit
Realistically eBikes are becoming more stealthy every year. Eventually we're going to reach a point where they're indistinguishable from regular bikes unless you're on one that looks like a motorcycle. Some of them already are indistinguishable so these laws are going to become nearly impossible to enforce and it's going to force them to focus on people riding unsafely. I really think the industry and its hobbyists need to organize along with regular cyclists to force municipalities to address the actual problem instead of settling on blanket solutions.
Strange-Style-7808@reddit
It's all fun and games until they run into your bike
Krapshoet@reddit
lol mind your own business until you hit one of them at an intersection as they leave the sidewalk and enter the road. Yes I’ll be legally in the “right” but have to live with the results of their recklessness. Question is why should I have to?
TheFirearmsDude@reddit
Had a similar experience yesterday too. Idiot kids were on a highway doing wheelies down the center lane when they weren’t swinging across three lanes almost hitting people. Only one of the five had on a decent helmet, and the bikes weren’t fast enough to hit the speed limit so they were holding up traffic.
I would love to get one of these e-motos. I’d love to use one as a scooter/moped off highway, I privately own a few miles of trails, and I live near an off road dirt bike park. But this kind of shit is going to ruin things for actual e-bikes, which are currently allowed on our bike trails.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
I get some people will say they see legal crotch rockets doing the same thing and sure I agree but I would say percentage wise those riders make up a smaller percentage of motorcycle riders compared to the percentage of ebikers I see although in fairness I think the good behaving ebike riders are riding on paths and trails at reasonable speeds so I don't even see them. But again it comes down to regulatoin ie motorcycles have plates, vin numbers, etc, there's more accountability.
id8@reddit
State and local dont have money or political will to expand police and enforcement. The move is to ebike regulation / license / insurance / registration and critically plates that are readable for integration into existing AI Flock/Traffic camera systems. Mailing people tickets. State surveillance/ATM machine.
This won't solve the problem, or make anyone safer, but it will facilitate law enforcement, and raise revenue, appealling to both Red and Blue. It is an extension of what they already are doing.
They are using normal, rational concerns like yours to sell it to the public.
Pushback:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FlockSurveillance/
*
AI license plate cameras tore this town apart and led to a state of emergency
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1tfzzg7/ai_license_plate_cameras_tore_this_town_apart_and/
WAPO https://archive.ph/0NDBO
(Note focus is on "shared data with ICE")
*
Big Brother on the Road: The Growing Backlash Against License Plate Surveillance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAm_Ce4BDu0
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Horrific.
trtsmb@reddit
I'll preface this by I love seeing responsible people out on e-bikes and e-motos because it means one less car on the road.
Unfortunately, it's bad behavior like this that is forcing municipalities to start looking at regulating e-bikes/e-motos.
There are going to be lots of people replying to you with the tired "let kids, be kids" and how when one of these 12/13/14 year olds get killed, it's 100% the driver of the car. They'll spin it that somehow it was your fault that the kid who was fooling around almost rear ended you.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
Generally speaking I'm all for kids being kids and for as little regulation as possible. As a kid we road my buddies 3 wheeler, now illegal under power lines on parkways, not legal but not really affecting anyone and yeah maybe we occasionally crossed through a neighborhood. We had mini bikes we'd crusie up and down our street on and sometimes a dad would coem out and stand in front of us and try to stop us and yell at us. If I saw a kid riding these in my neighborhood I wouldn't give it a second thought but hte brazeness to be out on the most populated streets in the city riding period let alone being crazy really shocked me. I said to one of the at a light, I was like cool bike dude but don't driving like a fucking idiot, of course he flicked me off.
trtsmb@reddit
I think that's the difference. It was the same in my neighborhood - kids rode their bikes around the neighborhood, not down the middle of the 50mph state road nearby. We had a few kids that had dirt bikes and they knew where they could go and not go. But those were the days, when every family in the neighborhood knew each other and a mom would rat you out to your mom if you were somewhere you weren't supposed to be or doing something inappropriate.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Cars were part of the social design to purposefully get people to not know each other so as to allow for more judgemental and bad society.
avo_cado@reddit
Also, cars back then were slower and smaller
trtsmb@reddit
Cars were pretty big when I was a kid and driver exams were stricter. At least here in FL, if you have a pulse, you can get a drivers license and be completely incompetent.
avo_cado@reddit
the average car is 30% heavier than it was in the 80s
trtsmb@reddit
My first car was a 1972 Olds that weighed in at about 3500 lbs. My current car is an EV that weighs in at 3500 lbs too. My last gas car was a 2013 compact SUV and weighed in at approximately 3000 lbs.
terraherts@reddit
We already regulate e-bikes in most US states, and I'm really tired of people pretending we don't. The problem is a lack of enforcement - which means if you ban currently legal ebikes the only thing you'll do is screw over people that were already being responsible, you won't do anything to stop the behavior people are complaining about, because those people were already riding illegal bikes.
Part of the problem is the usual confirmation bias and tribalism you see with drivers blaming cyclists for anything and everything, because a lot of e-bikes just look like regular bikes and the majority of people being responsible don't stand out like the minority of assholes do.
sentinel_of_ether@reddit
I mean, i just don’t get why we’re even selling anything above a 350w (650w peak) anyway. Its already more power than you’ll ever need. The 1000w motors shouldn’t be considered bikes at all, there’s no point in those pedals at that point.
Its the same shit with america letting cars go 150mph, like why do we even allow this? Putting up a speed limit sign isn’t stopping anyone. Much easier to just hit the root of the issue. There’s no reasonable explanation.
SexiestPanda@reddit
If you’re gonna ban bikes with 1000w motors, ban vehicles over 300hp
sentinel_of_ether@reddit
Agreed
terraherts@reddit
On what basis? Again, this just feels like you have no concept of bikes being used as transportation and what that means.
Leaving aside that 1000W is technically past current legal limits...:
Cargo bikes
Steeper hills on direct hubs
Maintaining speed on steeper hills
Etc.
1000W is not nearly as much power as many cycling purists think it is, you'd be lucky to get a bike much past 25mph in many cases.
sentinel_of_ether@reddit
If they are transportation vehicles, they aren’t bikes. If you crash into someone carrying 200 pounds on your already 100 pound bike you’ll possibly kill them. Its not a bike anymore.
At some point they are going to regulate down and draw a line. The motor and battery weight/power are the first thing that will be considered. Where else do you recommend they start?
terraherts@reddit
Are you a bot? You just agreed that bikes were transportation, now you're saying they're not again.
You were whining about anything over 40lbs, 100lbs is more than twice that, and the speed matters as much if not more than the weight.
I would be surprised if you can come up with a single example of someone being killed by a cargo bike in the US, and either way they're a hell of a lot safer than cars.
As you've already been told, we already do regulate these, most US states follow the three class system.
At this point I'm about 90% convinced you're a bot, or you're arguing in such transparently bad faith that it's of little difference, so I'm done responding.
Strange-Style-7808@reddit
I see the need for 1000w for cargo bikes, but those are also heavy enough that 1000w is going to get you the same results as 350 on a normal bike.
sentinel_of_ether@reddit
Yeah but the impact from your crash is going to be a lot different from the impact from a 350w. I think thats going to be considered in any future reg.
Strange-Style-7808@reddit
True but most of those bikes are not on roads. They tend to be at worksites
trtsmb@reddit
How are they regulated? In my state, there are no age limits for the different types of bikes/motos. No skills requirements to ride e-motos, etc. Pretty much no regulations at all. A 12 year old can happily ride an e-moto at 40mph down the street without repercussions.
terraherts@reddit
Which state? Most US states follow the three class system for ebikes, and while there are some minor variations, all are limited to 750W. Class 1 and 2 are limited to 20mph, and class 3 is 28mph.
Age limits are much more varied, but most people aren't really against reasonable age limits.
Pretty sure that's already illegal in every state, because it's legally no different than a 12 year old on a gas dirtbike doing the same thing.
The problem is usually enforcement - and if the rules we already have aren't enforced, then adding new restrictions won't do anything either except screw over the people already trying to be responsible.
trtsmb@reddit
The 3 class system is not regulation. It's simply naming that the bike companies came up with.
Sadly, it's not illegal for younger teens to drive e-motos in FL. A 12 year old in FL can drive a gas dirt bike with adult supervision but not on the roads.
terraherts@reddit
Incorrect, the three class system is already established law in more than half of US states, with more states passing a version of it every year.
Nor were the labels developed by bike companies, they were developed by PeopleForBikes, a cycling advocacy group based out of Boulder, CO.
sentinel_of_ether@reddit
I mean all they have to do is handle this by weight. If you’re shit is over 75 pounds (mostly due to motor and battery), we gotta consider that this really isn’t a bike anymore.
Dook23@reddit
So you're saying something like an Aventon Aventure 3 should be regulated like an emote because it weighs 76 lbs? I don't think so.
sentinel_of_ether@reddit
I mean that is a tank of a fucking bike, its loaded with power and its not a city commuter, its all terrain.
They gotta draw the line *somewhere*.
Dook23@reddit
It is still a legal bike though is my point. Just because a bike isn't a commuter doesn't mean it's not legal and/or can't be ridden on the street. There is no reason to regulate that model ebike as an emoto. I own a bike heavier than this one and at my age I can carry it up the stairs too, which is a ridiculous metric to hold bike classes to anyway.
Denver80211@reddit
This doesn't belong in the ebike sub. Stop associating us with that garbage
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
Many people in here ride those, the general public calls them ebikes and many people here defend them, I think its relevant
Denver80211@reddit
the general public needs to be educated. stop promoting emoto with the wrong terms
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Aren't all electric vehicles emotos? What's your real point which you're attempting to cover up with some terminological zeitgeist? Rarely is it a pure motivation if it can't be playing stated and relies on the weight of vague name association and overly precise definitions rather than honest discussions. How curious how the terminology is rooted in motocross and how that also was part of big oil ensuring that cars seemed like the rational default choice which needed people to be sensitive towards the requirements of.
smwalter@reddit
Regulate behaviour - not devices... Car with 600HP.... OK Doing 80 ticket... Regulate observable behaviour..... not something that police officers cannot determine immediately.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
That and also provide the infrastructure and places for such driving to reduce incidence and ensure punishment doesn't feel excessive.
Robustusmaximus@reddit
Well the Tampa Hillsborough sheriff thinks the solution is to pull all emoto riders and threaten with tickets and impounding while reading responsibly with insurance and an endorsement.
I am trying to plate it.
I dont like the behavior of these kids but I still hate inconsistent government authoritarian behavior more.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
There's comments in this thread gleefully cheering on the restrictions of all with some think of the children bs meant to prevent the way in which miscreant behavior is a sign of issues with parenting (which often are rooted in society and not personal choice) which could be opportunities to notice and change the root cause... But those in power know all this and use it all as leverage to effect their desired results. Beware astroturfing
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Short answer: No.
Long answer:
Gun bans actually do consider objective criteria the majority of the time. The terrible "looks like" criteria is on ebikes. Ultimately tho, regulation is not a magic spell, the police are a limited tool with their own priorities and would much rather arrest people with illegal guns (threat) than illegal ebikes (nonthreat).
The police also would much rather arrest people who stand out, so when the mayor asks them to arrest illegal bike riders, they're gonna arrest the few guys going 60 on obvious motorcycles with no plate, not the many guys going 40 on things that look like mopeds.
Put together, this means enforcement of any strict ebike laws is ultimately at the mercy of what people as a whole are doing. Any solution that does not affect the root cause of people riding emotos illegally is dead.
Additionally, ebike laws as currently written are incredibly complex for enforcement. Consider a person goes by in a 25mph zone on an electric personal vehicle... 20mph with pedals and throttle? Legal. 25 mph with pedals and throttle? Possibly illegal, but they could be going downhill. 20mph with no pedals and a seat? Illegal (in my state "and a seat" matters, it'd be legal if the seat was removed). Even if the officer is trying to go after out-of-class ebikes, do you really expect them to know this and be able to asses throttle-presence (invisible to them because it's in the grip) on top of pedal-presence (view blocked by cars in another lane, so also invisible to them)?
Oh, and wattage matters too. You think 750W is a simple matter, but my ebike does 1000W for long periods, but that's still legal in California, because it technically is rated only for 750W running permanently, which is something the manufacturer decided. What's a cop gonna do if I come to Cali and he somehow has a feeling my ebike is doing 1000W, stop me and waste 20 minutes of both our time researching it, then later have another 20 minutes with his boss? It's absurd.
So why are people riding emotos illegally? Well first off, we have to look into why they're riding them and not alternatives at all. The obvious answer there is that bicycles are slow (in a country where being late to work can get you fired and distances are greater than ever between work and home) and cars are expensive (over time, not just upfront, even a free used car will need thousands in maintenance in a few years). Emotos are fast and cheap over time.
Now, why not make your riding legal? Well, the majority of people in the US live in a state where it is very difficult to register an emoto, and if you don't register, your riding is illegal. On top of that, insurance is a huge chunky expense needed to ride legally, and even if you could register your emoto, licensing is its own pain, with many states requiring you first get a driver's license (which, mind, you can't get if you only have an emoto and no car or someone's to borrow for the test, and many won't let you borrow theirs).
So...we can piece together a solution that might half-work:
There is bipartisan disinterest all of these. Republican politicians especially despise attempts to make out-of-the-norm things take less paperwork (and particularly like to add paperwork for gov't help or generally anything helping the poor), and would probably fall in line behind Trump, who is aggressively anti-bike. Specifically, they would balk at the schooling requirement, and probably on registration come up with a scheme where every state requires that your motorcycle's manufacturer have completed an inspection by a US company. No joke, just last week stopped allowing FCC certification be done by non-American companies, in order to raise the barrier for electronics to be sold.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Making guns awkward to handle actually just decreased safety instead of being a decisive factor in the incidence of gun violence
Dook23@reddit
Just in reference to this statement you made, in most U.S. states you CAN get a motorcycle license without having a driver's license. However, there are still age requirements so many kids on these emotes couldn't get a license anyway. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't bother anyway even if they could.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
I'm not sure this is true, but I don't know the exact numbers (reason I used "many" instead of "most" up in where I specified that this is a part of the overall problem). Can you provide a source on the majority allowing motorcycle licensing without car licensing?
Dook23@reddit
Well I know the states in my area do but not sure how to present a link/source stating many do. Just try google. I don't have concrete evidence most do, so sorry for that exact word, but I do know several states I have lived in allowed it. That said though, where I am the written test still has to be taken but you don't need a car drivers license to get a motorcycle one.
Nebulon-B_FrigateFTW@reddit
Googling results in it saying that only a few states let you go motorcycle-only (and its list is clearly incomplete). I don't really trust AI summaries, because they are often wrong, especially on vehicle law.
At any rate, one thing I do notice as a pattern is that states where you can go motorcycle-only require you to complete a motorcycle training course that takes much, much more time than the simple test of whether you can drive a car around for a bit.
Dook23@reddit
Agreed with the safety course but never questioned it or brought it up anyway. Since you did bring up the training course though, there are also several states where driver's training is required before getting a drivers license as well so I didn't bother mentioning it as they can be as time consuming as a motorcycle one. For example, in MD a person (no matter age) must pay out of pocket for a civilian driver's training course which includes in person classroom study as well as three on road lessons with a driver's instructor. I was simply mentioning there are many places where a drivers license isn't required.
Here are just some of the states though that allow a motorcycle license without a driver's license: MD, CA, OH, FL, PA, VA, SC, IL, and KY that I can confirm. Though in KY you can't get the motorcycle license without a drivers license if you are under 18. While not a complete list those are the ones that I know personally in which you can do it because I have lived there and researched/done it, or a family member has. Often in the states that do require it, the motorcycle license is an addition to a driver's license and is just marked on the DL itself, which is part of the reason why you can't get a separate moto license.
mayorlittlefinger@reddit
You can read posts like this basically the invention of the bicycle on. The issue is kids and no one has come up with a solution to that yet
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
nobody was really complaining about kids on pedal bikes
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Literally bmx bikes have been obnoxious in cities for ages (not the fault of people having responsible fun but the fault of car centric inefficient infrastructure meant to drive up profitability and ensure class stratification)
mayorlittlefinger@reddit
Oh they were! https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/2018/09/08/early-bikes-sparked-same-fears/10812113007/?gnt-cfr=1&gca-cat=p&gca-uir=true&gca-epti=z114040e1184xxv114040d--45--b--45--&gca-ft=190&gca-ds=sophi
TheFlightlessDragon@reddit
I lean libertarian as well, so I’d prefer little to no regulation, but this is becoming a problem.
The core of the issue is irresponsible parents, the ones buying these monstrosities for their brats. Start fining the parents.
Start enforcing road rules, treat the delinquents as we would treat the same irresponsible behavior from drivers.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
Not sure if its that ebikes are so much better than mini bikes or if kids in the day just had more fear/respect but we fucked around and got in trouble, we played wth mini bikes or four wheelers but we wouldn't have taken them out on a main raod
Electrical_Tof@reddit
There were also a lot more places to ride etc. Expansion of infrastructure would mean kids could actually be held to account for getting in the way of traffic without it being because of the lack of options and irresponsible driving requires people in their lives paying attention to their behavior who can help them.
TheFlightlessDragon@reddit
I remember the mini bike days, had one at one point.
But it was different then, for one thing, as you pointed out, 90s kids would virtually never ride their toys on main roads.
Sure, our toys were still illegal to ride like anywhere, but we weren’t doing wheelies or riding into opposing lanes on arterial roads.
WishIWasThatClever@reddit
Local government needs to stop managing two traffic types and realize that we’re now in a three party situation. Pedestrians, motor vehicle, and PEVs. Yes, there’s some nuance there for bicycles and large scooters but until they start acknowledging and managing all three types, we will continue to be lumped in with the misbehaving and unparented children that give us all a bad name.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
Historically any third party was basically just not allowed period, it's interesting that the fact that they're electric is all that's needed for it to be okay. Not saying I disagree with taht its just interesting. Someone pointed out that in an area near them hoverboards and electric unicycles were bannd but not ebikes which is an interesting distiction.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Not allowed at in the behest of big oil to protect their profiting from heavy vehicles. 3 categories if you want to call it that doesn't necessarily require three tiers of infrastructure just a lot of expansion of light weight options.
BassesNBikes@reddit
Yeah. Off-road vehicles are nothing new. The electric ones that don't meet the legal requirements for the carve-out that makes e-bikes regulated like bikes need to stick to private property.
SomewhereOutThere-_-@reddit
When I was young (and now I’m not), we had bike safety classes at school. They taught us to ride with traffic, hand signals, etc. I wonder if that would be useful to this new generation of kiddos? I know that won’t stop the wheelies and thrill-seekers, but I’d venture most kids don’t even know the basics of riding in traffic
trtsmb@reddit
County school boards are starting to talk about this in my area.
Kevintj07@reddit
Old Cunt Genx here Aussie, I was a BMX Kid and MC was the next think I wanted to ride. My parents divorced and I went to live with my mum and got a job after high school picking up trolleys and then I got an RM80. I was 15-16 and kept my bike at my Dads place as there was a offroad area prob a k away.
I would just start it up and ride and let it warm up but you know 2 strokes...
I PAID for my madness,not my parents.
Jmk-2296@reddit
It's these kids that go around riding recklessly that gave the rest of the e-bike community a bad rep, cops are extremely strict about them where I live now they'll pull you over if they see you riding even if you're on a class 2 certified bike I was pulled over on my super 73 one time and I had to explain to the cop that the bike isn't even capable of going over 20 mph and how strict super 73 is about that
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
Yeah I think maybe an 18 and up thing is the way its gonna have to be so adults can be left alone
Jmk-2296@reddit
I promise you that won't fix anything there would be countless kids who would still find ways to get a bike it might sound stupid but the only way I think you could do something about it is to maybe have there be some kind of e-bike certification people can get not a license but just something saying that you're legally able to ride one
OutHereToo@reddit
I’ve heard in some places, they follow them home with a drone/heli. Cops come to house and impound the bike. They can’t charge anyone because they can’t identify rider, but they can impound bikes used illegally.
SexiestPanda@reddit
Wonder why they don’t do that for reckless drivers in 5000 pound vehicles
Jmk-2296@reddit
Because cops don't ever chase down "5000 pound vehicles" being driven by someone who's driving recklessly right? Nobody cares about your truck you get 8 mpg for bud 🤏
KevDal@reddit
Replying then blocking is always such a silly thing
Anyways, were they going after drivers with drones like they’re going after emoto riders with drones?
Jmk-2296@reddit
Not tryna waste my time with a dude talking about trucks in r/ebikes 🤷♂️
KevDal@reddit
…..in a thread about emotos in ebikes…..
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
It won't fix everything but there's a percentage of parents who are rule followers and that will be enough. It will also add some consequences for kids and maybe their parents and I would hope would also shield drivers from some liability as well
Jmk-2296@reddit
I'm sure there are some parents who are actually responsible and don't like for their kids to ride around recklessly endangering other people but at the end of the day when the kids are away from their parents they can do whatever they want, maybe if there was this certification system if a kid violated it then they would be in some type of database preventing them from legally purchasing an e-bike for a certain amount of time
droobieinop@reddit
IMHO the best possible solution would be something like what’s been in place for years for mopeds and motorcycles. If they can’t be tagged without a VIN (what’s the difference between VIN and serial numbers) then they should only be operated by someone who, at the least, has a learner’s permit.
Let’s also keep in mind that although many of these things are relatively cheap, in price and production, your average minor does not have the financial resources to purchase them. This would ultimately make the parents responsible as they’re paying for and allowing their children to ride them.
Overseerer-Vault-101@reddit
The problem with that is that they can be built with parts not made for ebikes.
SexiestPanda@reddit
That’s crazy. Are cops pulling over every single lifted pickup truck too?
hbHPBbjvFK9w5D@reddit
I'm a little ole lady- I remember the solutions we had for kids who were driving recklessly on bikes.
At one time (the 70's) we had police come to school and teach bike safety to kids in the 3rd grade; it was understood at the time to be a precursor to the drivers courses which were also taught (for free!) during summer school to kids who were old enough for a learners permit.
The school couldn't stop a kid from riding their bike without a bike safety course; but they could refuse to issue school permits to park a bike at school. In general, kids got a bike sometime before 4th grade and were expected to ride their own bikes to school. The kids who didn't take the class or couldn't pass it were relegated to the "walk of shame" with the "little kids."
We also had the equivalent of open track days at speedways and raceways for people who wanted to drive at reckless speeds in their cars. In our case it was bicycle x-cross. The kids would have supervised racing events in public parks - or a farmer would donate an acre or two of hilly land so the kids could ride like idiots without going into the street. If you wanted a place to ride crazy, that was where you went.
And if you were truly reckless on a bike, the local sheriff would just take your bike and call your parents to come get it. No fine, just a little talking to about if a kid was mature enough to ride a bike and a little promotion of the free bike safety courses.
ellipticorbit@reddit
An even bigger problem is that these kids get cars as soon as they can and drive them in a similar lawless fashion, which is 1,000,000 times more dangerous and destructive for everyone.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
I'd argue that's not the case when we were young everyone wanted a car the day tey turned 16 today kids dont see to care that much about driving and i know a ton of 20 year old kids without licenses.
ellipticorbit@reddit
I see a ton of drivers completely flouting every aspect of safe driving. They're the one making daily life so challenging in my opinion. Are all of them younger men? Not all. But many are. Obviously there are a bunch of people who don't drive, but the car culture is so powerful that it sucks in most people. This is a very reactionary historical moment, it's not surprising to see the rising general embrace of hyper violence. Sad and horrifying, but not surprising.
Environmental_Suit49@reddit
I’m 58 years old. Love the Surronster channel and as much as I want to be annoyed with his ride outs, I just can’t. When I was a kid, we all had dirt bikes. Difference is, I lived in the country. We had back roads, fields and trails. We used to annoy some people with the noise, and “get off my property” but we weren’t tearing anything up and tried to be respectful.
I hope the fans of Surronster look at his positivity and his awareness that what they’re doing could be annoying to many people. But the kid in me says, let these kids be kids and it’s great they aren’t rotting on their phones while they’re riding!
Everyone just be cooler to each other and let’s all just get on with the day
Dook23@reddit
There's a big difference between you and a few friends having dirt bikes that you rode out in the country on back roads, fields, and trails than Surronster who promotes major rideouts, rides tons of illegal vehicles, and is someone who other kids look up and aspire to. These group rides he is involved with break all kinds of laws and can be very dangerous and many kids want to be and act like him. You also have no idea how he is in real life. All you see is his online persona where he hides his tru identity and of course seems positive, because he has an image to uphold to keep getting his clicks. At your age you should know the difference.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
I used to live in a house in a populated area but that had high tension power lines and a large grass field/easement between homes and subdivisions. Kids would ride snowmobiles and dirt bikes and stuff and y eah they'd occasionally cross a busy street or go briefly through a neighborhood to keep on their path but to me that's very different than your entire saturday and sunday is spent on major streets messing with cars, popping wheelies, as a driver if I'm turning into a parking lot and hit you because no person can reasonably be expected to foresee a dirtbike tearing over a curb or down a sidewalk at 40mph now your affecting my safety, my life, maybe even putting some liability on me deserved or not
Environmental_Suit49@reddit
People driving like dicks, absolutely no place for that. If you’re gonna do sketchy shit with your friends, be cool about it. Hard for young testosterone boys to control themselves tho.
I live in a medium sized city now, low crime here and the police do not tolerate ride outs. I saw a group of 3 kids on the dirt bike style e-bikes getting hassled by the cops. I don’t know if they deserved it or not…but all I’m saying is I get it. I was young once a very long time ago. I’m trying to have patience with young people because you only get to do it once. If I was young right now, I think I might be doing hood-rat things with my sketchy friends too.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
Even though they shouldn't be riding in traffic period I could have cared less about that if they weren't swerving and popping wheelies and going into and out of ongoing traffic
Aggravating-Joke-550@reddit
Let it go.
A hundred times more effective to stop dangerous driving.
SadisticPawz@reddit
I'm ok with enforcing and going after those kinds of riders. I'm against going after responsible riders, no matter what they're riding or what the rules specifically are.
Think_Green2240@reddit
There are petitions based on already-public, clear legal definitions between e-bikes and electric motorcycles out there (@OP you unintentionally call out e-bikes in your Post Title when you’re actually referring to electric motorcycles - you call it out correctly in the Post Body, though) that advocate for continued pursuit-of-compliance with existing laws and advancement of regulations on electric motorcycles while advocating for the simultaneous leaving-in-peace (or at least differentiation of regulations of) Class 1-3 e-bikes.
The definitions are very clear, which is what allows regulation to be cogent.
Given the push lawmakers have been making in the past month, and accidents/observed illegal activity in the field, effective enforcement seems only a matter of time.
It’s probably worth waiting to buy one instead of buying now, because by the time the rider is used to driving it, there’ll be another generation released that is stock street-legal sans endorsement, registration, and insurance.
Examples of petitions, definitions, and regulations are from California - DM me if you want ‘em. If more than a few people ask for them here, I’ll edit this comment with them.
Thin_Proposal_1234@reddit
Assault Bikes
allmightylemon_@reddit
I too hate to sound like an old fart but these kids are pissing me off lol
daveyconcrete@reddit
As with most things, the real solution is respect.
unseenmover@reddit
I think we need to begin seeing some harsh consequences to this behavior before its going to be curbed. But i also think that were moving in the right direction by holding these kids parents accountable for the kids behavior. CHP stopped a huge pack of kids from a bridge take over before it happened using drones.
Prestigious-Pea-6781@reddit
World: Kids are stuck on their screens. Whatever happened to being outside, doing dangerous things that built confidence. Back in my day . . .
Also World: we hate when kids are actually outside being kids
Maxrdt@reddit
I get what you're saying, but I've also seen what a motorcycle crash does to a human body. There's got to be a middle ground here.
ElectroNight@reddit
Middle grounds are obsolete. Extreme ends are where it's at nowadays.
stillyoinkgasp@reddit
Lol dunce take mate
Solid_Science4514@reddit
This is kind of a shit take. Kids can be outside while also not riding e-motos and endangering people around them. My friends and I were always outside when we were kids, and I can’t think of a single time we caused someone to fear for their safety.
The solution is parents need to not buy their shitty kids emotos, and if they do, then they should be held accountable for how their kids behave on the emoto.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
I see this get brought up a lot, I think its great kids aren't inside on screens but I also don't think that means anything goes as long as kids aren't inside on screens. I got into a lot of trouble as a kid but we tried to be somewhat sneaky, we were smoking weed in a park or playing on a construction site, not driving 40mph doing wheelies through heavily trafficked roads.
ElectroNight@reddit
Just wait till the mom (of the kid who wheelied into the old guy and ending up fatally injuring him) that got charged with a serious felony because of her ebike maniac kid goes to jail for 5 years.
Parents will wake up fast.
ArmchairPancakeChef@reddit
The problem is obviously the kids that ride irresponsibly. Period. Let's not avoid the issue.
WTF else could it be?
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
Isn't that the issue with everything? Guns aren't a problem people who use them improperly or criminals are the problem but it doesn't stop regulation so why would you expect ebikes to be any different? Not trying to compare ebikes to guns just that regulation often takes weird forms ie assault weapon bans often have little to do with evidence, actually preventing crime or even how a weapon functions it often comes down to does it look mean or aggressive. I think were going to see similar things with ebikes unless you have some really feminine looking foldable bike I think there's lots of rules coming
ArmchairPancakeChef@reddit
But you can't kill 40 people with a bicycle.
If you're not trying to compare bikes to firearms, why draw any kind of comparison?
Kids of the age were talking about have no business on an eMoto that can go anywhere from 30mph to 200mph. Period. And they should be regulated just the same as a motorcycle is.
As far as I'm concerned, a 15 year old on an eMoto that can do 70mph is a tragedy waiting to happen.
It's a huge loophole.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
99% of gun owners don't kill people and 99% of gun crimes dont involve long weapons either. I'm also not comparing bikes to guns I'm saying I predict your going to see similar styles of regulation that logistically don't make a whole lot of sense. I agree with what your saying about the loophole, all laws are basically baed on CC's which electric bikes don't have.
ArmchairPancakeChef@reddit
Well, for a guy that's not trying to compare bike to guns, you sure compare bikes to guns a lot. lol
Like I said, regulate eMotos like motorcycles.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
its comparing regulaton tactics not the two while there are some similarities ie public safety
terraherts@reddit
The laws are already there for this stuff, the problem isn't a lack of laws it's a lack of enforcement.
E..g e-dirtbikes like Surrons are already illegal to ride on public streets, just like gas powered dirtbikes.
Inevitable-Watch-147@reddit
It's really the police who are too blame, they stopped enforcing reckless operation laws for all vehicles.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
That probably varies quite a bit area to area
Tricky_Condition_279@reddit
Once literally came upon a group riding down a high speed off ramp. One popped a wheely and fell off in front of me. I hit flashers and stopped while he jumped back on. These were older teens clearly goofing off to be cool. I was actually not that perturbed, yet it could have come out much worse if a driver was not paying attention.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
I'm sure their parents would have tried to sue you as well
SmithKenichi@reddit
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
So as others have pointed out I think this is kind of part of the problem, is 80% of it karen behavior yes, are there legitimate complaints, yes. If you're not part of the solution your just going to be a victim of it. Unregistered motorcycles electric or not shouldn't be on the road, I think that's a pretty common sense starter. Now are kids going to ride on neighborhood streets on their way to a forest preserve or something sure, is that a huge problem, not really any different than the 90s and riding minibikes on your own block
Gold_Area5109@reddit
If you're in the US or many other countires they are likely already banned from road use. Assuming they don't have pedals or go above 28mph/20kph/etc.
US law that most states have adopted or using as a guideline is 750watts, 20mph on throttle / 28mph with pedal assist. Certain states have mandated the new UL requirements for ebikes.
They're just cheap enough that parents don't think twice about buying them for their children.
moreplateslessdates9@reddit (OP)
YOur right though everyday I see new cities implementing laws so its still happening. I think the bigger issue is enforcement ie even if the cops care to enforce it its goint to be difficult to catch kids who wanna run. Personally if the trend continues what I see is zero tolerance for anything that looks like a motorcycle or dirt bike on the roads and stiff fines and even penalties for parents.